Templars need reform because the game has changed

Minno · March 2018

There are also 3 camps of Templars looking for changes:
- those that wish for Templar house to actually be formidable (strong buffs if Templar is in his channeled focus, an actual melee range AOE cc, major mending back, etc)
- those that want Templar to be a mobile melee powerhouse (rune to be self buff, major expedition on class skill, Ultimates buffed to match a mobile game)
- and those that only think that Templar needs small buffs, but over heavy bug fixes/changes.

I am in camp #2, joy and Cinbri are camp #3 with maybe some inspiration from all the camps, and other templars are camp#1 (especially pve temps looking for tank buffs).

Overall there are values to all three! The compromise between all three is what will make Templar amazing come SSI patch.

Checkmath · March 2018

i actually like both ideas, either to be more mobile with buffs are back to the house playstyle. but Minno is right, we need a bit of everything to be back and shine.

Drdeath20 · March 2018

Has anyone ever crunched the numbers between reflective light and vampires bane?

Both cost the same, both have the same initial damage

Vampires bane is single target and does damage for 11.5 seconds (for my character its 1.4k dps)

Reflective light hits up to 3 targets and does more damage for 6.5 seconds for each target (for my character its 1.7k dps)

Now while the tooltip for vampires bane shows that it does more damage in the long run, it is a far weaker skill to run a rotation with and a loss to dps across the board. Jw if this caught anyone elses attention.

Also bump bcz this is a great thread that needs to keep going.

technohic · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

There are also 3 camps of Templars looking for changes:
- those that wish for Templar house to actually be formidable (strong buffs if Templar is in his channeled focus, an actual melee range AOE cc, major mending back, etc)
- those that want Templar to be a mobile melee powerhouse (rune to be self buff, major expedition on class skill, Ultimates buffed to match a mobile game)
- and those that only think that Templar needs small buffs, but over heavy bug fixes/changes.

I am in camp #2, joy and Cinbri are camp #3 with maybe some inspiration from all the camps, and other templars are camp#1 (especially pve temps looking for tank buffs).

Overall there are values to all three! The compromise between all three is what will make Templar amazing come SSI patch.

I’m sort of in the 2nd. Thing is; no mobility to go along with lack of root to keep our target with us. People just moving out of sweeps is a real thing. One reason I’ve run Stamplar lately. More options for major expedition. I mean even the speed pots come more with stam benefits

technohic · March 2018

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Has anyone ever crunched the numbers between reflective light and vampires bane?

Both cost the same, both have the same initial damage

Vampires bane is single target and does damage for 11.5 seconds (for my character its 1.4k dps)

Reflective light hits up to 3 targets and does more damage for 6.5 seconds for each target (for my character its 1.7k dps)

Now while the tooltip for vampires bane shows that it does more damage in the long run, it is a far weaker skill to run a rotation with and a loss to dps across the board. Jw if this caught anyone elses attention.

Also bump bcz this is a great thread that needs to keep going.

Sitting here thinking about this; it always has bugged me. At one point early in the release of ESO, the passive that extended the duration of Dawns Wrath abilities, watered down both morphs of Sun Fire by making the dots hit for less for longer. I think for templars and DKs both, or even all DOTs that do damage; they could do better by condensing DOTs to tick faster over shorter periods of time. Would be a shakeup of the PvE DPS meta of stack DOTs do a rotation before having to re-apply, but I always found that highly mechanical and boring. Shorter, more potent DoTs would make them much more rewarding to use and can leave purges more to get rid of all the crazy status effects flying around.

On another note; to go with the mobility and lack of soft CC of templars. Im also thinking about how DKs in their prime (before scales nerfed too much) the scales encouraged enemies to not sit and try to range them down. They then have their melee skills along with talons to lock people down. They would have been better suited to have a "House." For templars in our hay day; our defense in blazing shield encouraged players to engage from range. We had a spammable gap closer albeit very buggy back then, but still; it implies we were meant to chase down enemies. The House was a bad idea that did not synergize with that. Mobility would have. Now; both classes have been a bit neutered to where just a complete redesign either way could happen because the glory days are long gone. Scales is very situational and blazing shield isnt even worth while on a health tank any more.

Elsterchen · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

There are also 3 camps of Templars looking for changes:
- those that wish for Templar house to actually be formidable (strong buffs if Templar is in his channeled focus, an actual melee range AOE cc, major mending back, etc)
- those that want Templar to be a mobile melee powerhouse (rune to be self buff, major expedition on class skill, Ultimates buffed to match a mobile game)
- and those that only think that Templar needs small buffs, but over heavy bug fixes/changes.

I am in camp #2, joy and Cinbri are camp #3 with maybe some inspiration from all the camps, and other templars are camp#1 (especially pve temps looking for tank buffs).

Overall there are values to all three! The compromise between all three is what will make Templar amazing come SSI patch.

Am I alone in camp 4? -> Burn down house and build a palace temple instead?

Honestly, i am in for a whole reorganisation of this class.

edited for clarification

Drdeath20 · March 2018

Remove repentance/radiant aura from game.

Make the 10% increase to mag, stam, health a passive.

Attach minor magicka steal to the puddle of ritual of retribution.

Attach some form of repentance to the puddle of cleanse.

bring back that 6% increase to magicka damage templars use to have.

Bring back blinding flashes

Healing ritual is now a magicka vigor

Focused charge has a shorter min distance and is up to speed with every other gap closer.

Explosive charge is a stamina morph

Purifying light and power of light mark nightblades

Sweeps and jabs initial hit does 170% damage

Increase vapires banes DoT tics to be on par with reflective lights DoT tics

Both javelins root instead of knockback

After using a restoring light ability dark flare can be insta casted (still has travel time)

Remove the cast time from solar barrage

Revert unstable core to previous damage levels

Runes buffs last duration, regardless of if your standing in rune or not.

Adjust the cost of blazing shield and crescent shield

Aedric spear and crescent sweeps need to be switched and the range needs to be increased.

Do something with templars other ultimates. This can go in many directions.

I dont think any of these request or even all of them are unreasonable. After this is said and done templars still wont have access to any major buff and will still have problems with resource management. Atleast they will have enough damage and burst to not be a heal bot in cyrodil and trials and with a root they have a chance to play as a tank. Dare i say even be able to do some solo play in cyrodil.

Minno · March 2018

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Has anyone ever crunched the numbers between reflective light and vampires bane?

Both cost the same, both have the same initial damage

Vampires bane is single target and does damage for 11.5 seconds (for my character its 1.4k dps)

Reflective light hits up to 3 targets and does more damage for 6.5 seconds for each target (for my character its 1.7k dps)

Now while the tooltip for vampires bane shows that it does more damage in the long run, it is a far weaker skill to run a rotation with and a loss to dps across the board. Jw if this caught anyone elses attention.

Also bump bcz this is a great thread that needs to keep going.

I think you'd have to test to see where the DMG ticks actually happen then divide by the seconds of the full duration.

Last I checked, reflective light offered more initial hit and the dot was slightly better because you only have 6.5 seconds on the spell. But you also only have 6.5 seconds of crit chance buff (which is why I don't like this ability; you need a DK passive to make it equal to force pulse for pve, and the 6 seconds duration means you'll be recasting this ability in conjunction with other timers which is what is making Templar so clunky).

The Dawn's wraith passive, as per the build editor, shows the DMG is increased if you put points into the passive. So it's not totally lost but idk if this is true in the game. Lots of people don't like the 3 projectile AOE because it splits from the initial target so it's not a true AOE.

Minno · March 2018

technohic wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

There are also 3 camps of Templars looking for changes:
- those that wish for Templar house to actually be formidable (strong buffs if Templar is in his channeled focus, an actual melee range AOE cc, major mending back, etc)
- those that want Templar to be a mobile melee powerhouse (rune to be self buff, major expedition on class skill, Ultimates buffed to match a mobile game)
- and those that only think that Templar needs small buffs, but over heavy bug fixes/changes.

I am in camp #2, joy and Cinbri are camp #3 with maybe some inspiration from all the camps, and other templars are camp#1 (especially pve temps looking for tank buffs).

Overall there are values to all three! The compromise between all three is what will make Templar amazing come SSI patch.

I’m sort of in the 2nd. Thing is; no mobility to go along with lack of root to keep our target with us. People just moving out of sweeps is a real thing. One reason I’ve run Stamplar lately. More options for major expedition. I mean even the speed pots come more with stam benefits

I agree. Some of our spells suggest synergy with mobilty but we are tied down to our circles still. Remember when our class got 30% extra healing for everyone in our circle? Pve complained that it was"terrible" and they turned it into the 8 second mechanic we see today (before they removed our mjor mending which was already a 5% nerf at the time).

I don't run gap closers, so I use the frost staff reach for my root. Against a non DK/warden it works beautifully.

Sweeps is just buggy and still being triple reduced by CP which wasn't happening before DnB.

Still the magplar class suffers from choosing tankiness or mobilty whereas Sorc/nightblade/warden/stamina don't have to make that build choice:
-Sorc can build for shields without giving up damage and in turn slot will fitted to boost their stamina DMG advoidance.
- Nightblades can use shade to reposition and cloak to reset fights while having dodge chance, speed, and hard hitting burst.
- Wardens- can get speed, DMG done bonuses, healing spells while also having an aborb shield with minor evaison.
- Stamina- has cheaper dodge roll, stamina max stat to block, 15% Sprint speed with huge weapon DMG.
- even DK has the ability to get speed (chains), off balance DMG boosts but still use block with their passives and return stamina outside of Regen. It might be better for MagDK than StamDK, but they are much better than Templar because their abilities synergize better with block than Templars. But I think DKs need an answer for major defile and they are good to go. Templars need alot more.

NobleGuardian · March 2018

As a Magplar main for a very very long time this is one of the best things ive read, and what makes it even better is it isnt just like "plz buff magplar" its showing how gutted magplar has gotten over the patches since Morrowind. Thank you @Joy_Division for putting this together i just hope that the devs take their time to read and understand what it is that you are saying and take some of this into consideration. Maybe one day here soon our great class will be returned to its former glory.

Destruent · March 2018

Wow...this is just awesome. I'm only sad that i cannot give you "awesome", "insightful" and "agree" for it...
Keep on with this great work @Joy_Division. I hope ZOS will finally listen to you and change templars to the class i loved to play in 2016...

J18696 · March 2018

Buff Dk

Joy_Division · March 2018

Thanks all for your kind words!

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Has anyone ever crunched the numbers between reflective light and vampires bane?

Both cost the same, both have the same initial damage

Vampires bane is single target and does damage for 11.5 seconds (for my character its 1.4k dps)

Reflective light hits up to 3 targets and does more damage for 6.5 seconds for each target (for my character its 1.7k dps)

Now while the tooltip for vampires bane shows that it does more damage in the long run, it is a far weaker skill to run a rotation with and a loss to dps across the board. Jw if this caught anyone elses attention.

Also bump bcz this is a great thread that needs to keep going.

This is one of the few areas where I think ZoS has got it right.

Since I made an entire post basically saying what Zos has done wrong with Templars, I'd like to spend a little time here acknowledging something they did very right

The morph choices both have very compelling reasons to take them and there will always be situations where you wish you had the other morph. I like that ambiguity. I like that uncertainty. That feels like balance.

Vamp's Bane is certainly easier DoT to maintain. Without question. Even in PvE, it is difficult to keep up a 6 second DoT and that's not even getting into using more resources to do so. In PvP, where you must defend yourself and react, it's pretty much impossible to be efficient with the Reflective Light moprh against any competent player.

Reflective Light exchanges this efficiency for the potential for more damage in "cleave" situation (where multiple targets are standing next to each other ... not quite the same as "AoE"). I find this particularly useful in vMA and BGs. So, boom in those situations, but not as good in a 1v1 or Trial Boss.

To me that's perfect. It's not a PvP or PvE choice (a model I hate since I do both). It's not clear at all even in the same fight, which one is preferable (example: final boss in vMA. Love Reflective Light on first Crematorium Guard spawn. Would much rather have Vamp's Bane during the Crystal phase). If all morph choices were as compelling, this game would have much greater varieties when it came to competitive builds.

Cinbri · March 2018

Since there is no new class next Chapter - there is hope that zos will focus on class balance more. Along with representative program that should help againt bugs, plaguing every class.

technohic · March 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

Since there is no new class next Chapter - there is hope that zos will focus on class balance more. Along with representative program that should help againt bugs, plaguing every class.

Well; there is a new skill line so they could always balance around what they think that brings to everyone. Hopefully they at least don’t steal Templar passives and ability improvement ideas this time.

Minno · March 2018

technohic wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Since there is no new class next Chapter - there is hope that zos will focus on class balance more. Along with representative program that should help againt bugs, plaguing every class.

Well; there is a new skill line so they could always balance around what they think that brings to everyone. Hopefully they at least don’t steal Templar passives and ability improvement ideas this time.

Don't give them ideas lol

Savos_Saren · March 2018

The House Mentality aka "Stand-Your-Ground" was originally intended for waaaaay back in the day when DK tanks and Templar tanks (remember Blazing Shield builds?) were pretty much the only way to go. In PVP, you were either a Blazing Shield Build as a Templar or a Healer.

Now that the game has "evolved" and Templar healing has been toned down- it's time to give Templars more expedition and a decent CC. The same can be said for mDKs... they need a better form of expedition and some sort of execute.

ak_pvp · March 2018

DK were the original house with permablock, aoe inferno, wings blocking ranged, and cinder storm.

LordSlif · March 2018

Waiting for the pts now

Minno · March 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thanks all for your kind words!

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Has anyone ever crunched the numbers between reflective light and vampires bane?

Both cost the same, both have the same initial damage

Vampires bane is single target and does damage for 11.5 seconds (for my character its 1.4k dps)

Reflective light hits up to 3 targets and does more damage for 6.5 seconds for each target (for my character its 1.7k dps)

Now while the tooltip for vampires bane shows that it does more damage in the long run, it is a far weaker skill to run a rotation with and a loss to dps across the board. Jw if this caught anyone elses attention.

Also bump bcz this is a great thread that needs to keep going.

This is one of the few areas where I think ZoS has got it right.

Since I made an entire post basically saying what Zos has done wrong with Templars, I'd like to spend a little time here acknowledging something they did very right

The morph choices both have very compelling reasons to take them and there will always be situations where you wish you had the other morph. I like that ambiguity. I like that uncertainty. That feels like balance.

Vamp's Bane is certainly easier DoT to maintain. Without question. Even in PvE, it is difficult to keep up a 6 second DoT and that's not even getting into using more resources to do so. In PvP, where you must defend yourself and react, it's pretty much impossible to be efficient with the Reflective Light moprh against any competent player.

Reflective Light exchanges this efficiency for the potential for more damage in "cleave" situation (where multiple targets are standing next to each other ... not quite the same as "AoE"). I find this particularly useful in vMA and BGs. So, boom in those situations, but not as good in a 1v1 or Trial Boss.

To me that's perfect. It's not a PvP or PvE choice (a model I hate since I do both). It's not clear at all even in the same fight, which one is preferable (example: final boss in vMA. Love Reflective Light on first Crematorium Guard spawn. Would much rather have Vamp's Bane during the Crystal phase). If all morph choices were as compelling, this game would have much greater varieties when it came to competitive builds.
[/quote

There was a thread in this forum that said that vamps bane doesn't get the full 12 seconds of ticks, so they are constantly reapplying early in pve content.

Maryal · March 2018

@Joy_Division
Because this isn't a nerf NB post ... I applaud you! LOL!

Your post is well written and, despite the fact that I don't play a Templar, I get what you are saying, empathize with your position and hope your class gets some love.

Minno · March 2018

Maryal wrote: »

Because this isn't a nerf NB post ... I applaud you! LOL!

I don't play a Templar, but your post is well written and, despite the fact that I don't play a Templar, I get what you are saying, empathize with your position and hope your class gets some love.

next patch Nb's and Temps both lose our crit dmg passives applying to heals $:\$

Maryal · March 2018

@dodgehopper_ESO

You said: "Our best defense skill is a high cost purge that can at most purge 5 effects. This sounds OP but one has to recognize that a class like Nightblade can easily crank out much more than that in one second"

Focus man! The topic at hand is Templars. This is not a nerf NB post. Seriously, 1 little old NB cranking out 'much more than that' (i.e., 5 negative effects) in one second ... pffftttt. Cut down on the skooma!

Minno · March 2018

Maryal wrote: »

@dodgehopper_ESO

You said: "Our best defense skill is a high cost purge that can at most purge 5 effects. This sounds OP but one has to recognize that a class like Nightblade can easily crank out much more than that in one second"

Focus man! The topic at hand is Templars. This is not a nerf NB post. Seriously, 1 little old NB cranking out 'much more than that' (i.e., 5 negative effects) in one second ... pffftttt. Cut down on the skooma!

He's suggesting that debuff system be reviewed in a way.

99% of templars always suggest buffs to their class to match nightbaldes as well as other classes performing well!

Drdeath20 · March 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thanks all for your kind words!

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Has anyone ever crunched the numbers between reflective light and vampires bane?

Both cost the same, both have the same initial damage

Vampires bane is single target and does damage for 11.5 seconds (for my character its 1.4k dps)

Reflective light hits up to 3 targets and does more damage for 6.5 seconds for each target (for my character its 1.7k dps)

Now while the tooltip for vampires bane shows that it does more damage in the long run, it is a far weaker skill to run a rotation with and a loss to dps across the board. Jw if this caught anyone elses attention.

Also bump bcz this is a great thread that needs to keep going.

This is one of the few areas where I think ZoS has got it right.

Since I made an entire post basically saying what Zos has done wrong with Templars, I'd like to spend a little time here acknowledging something they did very right

The morph choices both have very compelling reasons to take them and there will always be situations where you wish you had the other morph. I like that ambiguity. I like that uncertainty. That feels like balance.

Vamp's Bane is certainly easier DoT to maintain. Without question. Even in PvE, it is difficult to keep up a 6 second DoT and that's not even getting into using more resources to do so. In PvP, where you must defend yourself and react, it's pretty much impossible to be efficient with the Reflective Light moprh against any competent player.

Reflective Light exchanges this efficiency for the potential for more damage in "cleave" situation (where multiple targets are standing next to each other ... not quite the same as "AoE"). I find this particularly useful in vMA and BGs. So, boom in those situations, but not as good in a 1v1 or Trial Boss.

To me that's perfect. It's not a PvP or PvE choice (a model I hate since I do both). It's not clear at all even in the same fight, which one is preferable (example: final boss in vMA. Love Reflective Light on first Crematorium Guard spawn. Would much rather have Vamp's Bane during the Crystal phase). If all morph choices were as compelling, this game would have much greater varieties when it came to competitive builds.

Great point! Yeah there are scenarios where vampires bane is the preferred choice. Weather its just trying to run a simplified rotation, help with sustain relief or what ever else. Thanks for the response joy_division

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

@dodgehopper_ESO

You said: "Our best defense skill is a high cost purge that can at most purge 5 effects. This sounds OP but one has to recognize that a class like Nightblade can easily crank out much more than that in one second"

Focus man! The topic at hand is Templars. This is not a nerf NB post. Seriously, 1 little old NB cranking out 'much more than that' (i.e., 5 negative effects) in one second ... pffftttt. Cut down on the skooma!

He's suggesting that debuff system be reviewed in a way.

99% of templars always suggest buffs to their class to match nightbaldes as well as other classes performing well!

@Minno properly understood me. I'm not trying to attack nightblades here. The only thing I think endangers the Nightblade situation is Cloak. Cloak is a lot of fun but I suspect they're going to hurt the class' other abilities because of it. Cloak has always been the danger for Nightblades frankly and what often holds the class back in various areas. Like you said though this isn't a thread about Nightblades and I don't want to go too far in that topic here.

Solariken · March 2018

Now that Radiant Destruction damage has been neutered (several times), I really think its cost needs to be looked at. A reduction would be nice but IMO the cost should be channeled and tick at the same rate as the damage. In PvP when you kill with the first tick, this skill is horribly inefficient. In PvE/PvP when you begin the channel but have to cancel for any reason, you just wasted a boatload of magicka. In either situation its cost is too punitive.

As for fun, I think it would be hella awesome to give our Rune the Eternal Hunt mechanic - a single target root with a bit of damage. As Joy said, Rune is so effing boring and doesn't pack enough benefit to justify its limited duration and stationary design. Maybe put the Minor Protection on Channeled Focus and make the other morph the offensive choice. The only other offensive element in the whole skill line is Rit of Ret, IMO the skill line needs at least one more. Additionally this change would support BOTH the mobile playstyle and the house playstyle. Pour some sugar on it @ZOS_Wrobel?

pelennor_fields · March 2018

Yes... Templar main since console launch. Approve this post. +1

Minno · March 2018

Solariken wrote: »

Now that Radiant Destruction damage has been neutered (several times), I really think its cost needs to be looked at. A reduction would be nice but IMO the cost should be channeled and tick at the same rate as the damage. In PvP when you kill with the first tick, this skill is horribly inefficient. In PvE/PvP when you begin the channel but have to cancel for any reason, you just wasted a boatload of magicka. In either situation its cost is too punitive.

As for fun, I think it would be hella awesome to give our Rune the Eternal Hunt mechanic - a single target root with a bit of damage. As Joy said, Rune is so effing boring and doesn't pack enough benefit to justify its limited duration and stationary design. Maybe put the Minor Protection on Channeled Focus and make the other morph the offensive choice. The only other offensive element in the whole skill line is Rit of Ret, IMO the skill line needs at least one more. Additionally this change would support BOTH the mobile playstyle and the house playstyle. Pour some sugar on it @ZOS_Wrobel?

Well I don't think sustain should come with defense. I think you should have to choose the extra heals+8% reduction but flipside the Regen needs a boost and channeled focus should become self buff with maybe major expedition.

Solariken · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Now that Radiant Destruction damage has been neutered (several times), I really think its cost needs to be looked at. A reduction would be nice but IMO the cost should be channeled and tick at the same rate as the damage. In PvP when you kill with the first tick, this skill is horribly inefficient. In PvE/PvP when you begin the channel but have to cancel for any reason, you just wasted a boatload of magicka. In either situation its cost is too punitive.

As for fun, I think it would be hella awesome to give our Rune the Eternal Hunt mechanic - a single target root with a bit of damage. As Joy said, Rune is so effing boring and doesn't pack enough benefit to justify its limited duration and stationary design. Maybe put the Minor Protection on Channeled Focus and make the other morph the offensive choice. The only other offensive element in the whole skill line is Rit of Ret, IMO the skill line needs at least one more. Additionally this change would support BOTH the mobile playstyle and the house playstyle. Pour some sugar on it @ZOS_Wrobel?

Well I don't think sustain should come with defense. I think you should have to choose the extra heals+8% reduction but flipside the Regen needs a boost and channeled focus should become self buff with maybe major expedition.

But @Minno it already does come with sustain + defense.

I don't want to overload the skill but IMO it just doesn't properly fill its intended role. In 5 heavy, it costs 1016 magicka. If you are on the move (which you should be), it only restores 1920 over the full 8 sec. I don't know why anyone would have about a gain if 904 magicka over 8 sec - that's garbage. Tacking Minor Protection or Major Expedition onto the existing Channeled Focus would not be overkill.

The skill line really needs more offensive utility and a root + damage on the other morph would be a nice addition that supports multiple playstyles.