Templars need reform because the game has changed

Skander

Incoming people saying:


BUUUTTTT CLEAAAAANSEEE

Feanor

Awesome write up, as always. Quality content.

DeadlyRecluse

Skander wrote: »

Incoming people saying:


BUUUTTTT CLEAAAAANSEEE

Yes, our best class utility is toilet paper.

Edit: A bidet joke would have been better, in hindsight.

technohic

Really nice write up. I was actually thinking about the issue with getting sweeps and jabs to land the other day. I had pressure on some different targets and they decided to try to move away with major expedition. Every attempt to use jabs, they were pretty much out of range after 1 or 2 hits. I'd actually have to use a gap closer to get back on them, rinse and repeat so long as they stayed moving; it was a lost cause. They could just heal up or shield up and turn it around.

Always felt the snare should be on the first hit rather than the last but that would only help so much so long as we are slow and a lot of people now run forward momentum or some sort of snare immunity due to snares being overplayed.

Nifty2g

I've said this a lot of times in the past

Magplars are suffering because their whole damage kit is magic damage, magic damage has no passive increases like the elemental damage types.

Magplars can be easily compeititve if ZOS just went and changed almost all of their damage to fire damage, for example Nova is a fragment of the sun, Radiant Destruction is a beam of holy fire, Burning Light is meant to be burning. All of these are magic damage. ZOS need to either change them to fire damage or give a racial passive mag damage, and if they do that and want to include some diversity, give the magic damage to Bretons (although magplars might still likely be the lowest) it would put them in a greater position than they are now. Or even putting this passive somewhere into the magplar class passives would help giving them 8% damage to magic damage.

Remove double click cast to spear shards as well so you don't even see the circle where you want to drop it and it just goes where the cursor is pointing at. This whole laggy function was totally removed from ultimate abilities but skills still have this functionality and it makes combat incredibly laggy, you almost always ruin a rotation by double casting spear shards because of it.

Not only is their damage low but magplars can barely sustain a thing, they really need their ability cost looked at.

Runefang

Nifty2g wrote: »

Remove double click cast to spear shards as well so you don't even see the circle where you want to drop it and it just goes where the cursor is pointing at. This whole laggy function was totally removed from ultimate abilities but skills still have this functionality and it makes combat incredibly laggy, you almost always ruin a rotation by double casting spear shards because of it.

-snip

Turn on automatic ground casting. Game changer.

Aurielle

Runefang wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Remove double click cast to spear shards as well so you don't even see the circle where you want to drop it and it just goes where the cursor is pointing at. This whole laggy function was totally removed from ultimate abilities but skills still have this functionality and it makes combat incredibly laggy, you almost always ruin a rotation by double casting spear shards because of it.

-snip

Turn on automatic ground casting. Game changer.

I... I think I love you. I didn't know this was a thing.

Nifty2g

Runefang wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Remove double click cast to spear shards as well so you don't even see the circle where you want to drop it and it just goes where the cursor is pointing at. This whole laggy function was totally removed from ultimate abilities but skills still have this functionality and it makes combat incredibly laggy, you almost always ruin a rotation by double casting spear shards because of it.

-snip

Turn on automatic ground casting. Game changer.

That doesn't change anything to what I am talking about, it is still technically a double click just that the game does it automatically, and it can still cause a double cast, the skill is way too clunky for it with it's travel time.

Dragath

ZOS got rid of class identity and diversity in hopes they could balance classes better if they would be homogenized across the board.
they still failed to balance classes and now we are stuck with the worst of both worlds.

RebornV3x

This is what happens when a company listens and panders to a vocal minority on forums and or famous internet people stuff gets nerfed and screwed up but Templars are still ok tho unlike Sorcerers on the other hand are a joke of a class now.

dodgehopper_ESO

I just want to add that your point #5 is the one that has really been nagging at me the last six months or so. I grind my teeth when I play my Templar. I play my Templar out of nostalgia, achievements, and some sort of desire to make it work. When it works it is great but the reality is the playstyle is so herky jerky. The playstyle is not that fun. The passives synergize poorly with out of class skills, but most of the in class skills are so horrible you end up using out of class skills. All there is for the Stamplar is Jabs. Lots and lots of jabs. I can think of no other class that has such an uninteresting stifling set up. Stam Sorc is actually quite fun. It has its flaws but the passives and whatnot make ANY out of class skill feel like its in class. I love watching my enemies go 'poof' into ash as my implosion hits (and it hits a lot). My kill counter ticks by way faster in pvp because I have a passive execute. I could go on and on but I won't. There's the joy of playing the class that's been sucked out of Templar. I admit I'm also a bit nostalgic for my warrior/tanky build of the past. I just can't seem to get that feeling back, a feeling I can derive from any other class except Templar.

In terms of 'fun' I'd like to see them do proper work on the aedric spear charge. It should look cool like your Achilles(brad pitt) jpg. It should FEEL cool like Dragon Leap. The spear-warrior needs the joy put back into it. I would also make one morph a stamina morph so that Templars can actually get some fun out of this in the WARRIOR build.

Power of the Light should draw Nightblades OUT. For the life of me I do not understand why a gigantic beam from heaven can be hidden from by a sneaky shadow mage, but a shadow beam from hell can. WTF is that? Its always bothered me. Even if this skill had a small tick that kept pulling them out of stealth I believe it would be appropriate (and I love playing Nightblade, but one of my biggest complaints about the class is its reliance on this skill. I personally think the pvp game would be better if cloak were more of a pve skill).

My other recommendation is that Templar having a house should mean something if its going to be said. Home invasions are common. Dragon Knights are the class with a real house. Talons, whips, spike armor, dragon leap, reflect. What does Templar do: A crappy snare and a cleanse that gives minor mending. There isn't a lot of punishment for entering the Templar house and Templar defenses are frankly pretty substandard if you're a Stamina build. It was passably okay when we had Major Mending. What all of this means is that a class built on the 'house' only works if you're a Mage, and if you're Stamina your class is mostly a drain. Blinding Flashes would be nice even if it were in a rework of the skill. It does not have to exist in the same manner that it use to. I've enjoyed the suggestion that the shield could offer this as well. If you're playing a Templar tank its highly frustrating the class has no real cc. If you're playing a Stamplar its mildly amusing to knock people off of keep walls but I would hardly call that a complete CC toolkit like the other classes have.

Out of class synergy. Templar has ***-poor out of class synergy and this ought to be looked at. Sorcerers have implosion, strong stamina regeneration, boosted magicka, potentially boosted health, cost reduction on everything, etc. Many of the changes to rule systems have made a large portion of Templar passives less useful, despite many of Templar passives already being less useful. Templar is arguably good at melee blocking and has some spell resistance. The passives need to really take all builds in mind and not just the Healbot.

Valkysas154

Skander wrote: »

Incoming people saying:


BUUUTTTT CLEAAAAANSEEE

You know some times i don't think many ppl know what a synergy is at all
i Can lay that skill out like its red carpet from 1 boss to the next if the tank is snared
they still never use it EVER

ofSunhold

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Incoming people saying:


BUUUTTTT CLEAAAAANSEEE

Yes, our best class utility is toilet paper.

Edit: A bidet joke would have been better, in hindsight.

I see what you did there.

Neoauspex

Templar thread? I'll bring booze and a 30 pack of agrees.

For real, the "house" mentality needs to be rethought. It's impossible to be successful in PvP or PvE while standing still, and our house isn't very good anymore anyway.

DeadlyRecluse

Neoauspex wrote: »

For real, the "house" mentality needs to be rethought. It's impossible to be successful in PvP or PvE while standing still, and our house isn't very good anymore anyway.

I'm still confused about what the "house" is supposed to be, at it's core.

Ritual of retribution+channeled focus+spear shards? A few moderate dots, hots and an armor buff?

It's a great, compelling metaphor that doesn't map to game mechanics in any way. It doesn't hurt anyone to stand in my rune. standing in my ritual doesn't save me--I have to recast it constantly to get any kind of real defensive utility out of it.

It's laughable. Is a light snare meant to be some major deterrent? It just makes no sense. It would have to be something dramatic (major maim on enemies in the rune, or some OP nonsense like that) to really make people stay out of templar "houses."

Neoauspex

Some minor debuff for being in one of our circles of uselessness would've been great compensation for losing major mending. Make it a major debuff, then we might be talking about a worthwhile house to try to stay in.

Minno

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

For real, the "house" mentality needs to be rethought. It's impossible to be successful in PvP or PvE while standing still, and our house isn't very good anymore anyway.

I'm still confused about what the "house" is supposed to be, at it's core.

Ritual of retribution+channeled focus+spear shards? A few moderate dots, hots and an armor buff?

It's a great, compelling metaphor that doesn't map to game mechanics in any way. It doesn't hurt anyone to stand in my rune. standing in my ritual doesn't save me--I have to recast it constantly to get any kind of real defensive utility out of it.

It's laughable. Is a light snare meant to be some major deterrent? It just makes no sense. It would have to be something dramatic (major maim on enemies in the rune, or some OP nonsense like that) to really make people stay out of templar "houses."

It's funny because light is the fastest thing in the universe and doesn't stay in one place (it has a beginning source though). Yet templars are supposed to be stationary/slow knights without defenses.

The intent needs a cleaning, especially in the mobile meta.

Checkmath

wardens have more kind of a house with corrupt pollen....major defile on every enemy in it....

Minno

Checkmath wrote: »

wardens have more kind of a house with corrupt pollen....major defile on every enemy in it....

And 3-hit AOE stun mechanic, and AOE immobilze, and absorb that auto targets ranged attackers.

They should have some buffs removed, placed on other classes, and then get DMG buffs they need to be pve competitive while remaining PvP balanced.

AfkNinja

Came back for a min to see if Templar ever got fixed, read this post. Nope. XD

The way they handled Templar and my Stamplar is exactly why I left and I guess I ain't commin back yet.

jerj6925

Bump for pure genius.

Feanor

Not only is their damage low but magplars can barely sustain a thing, they really need their ability cost looked at.

@Nifty2g

This is true. I got my Templar healer out yesterday to get tier 1 rewards and that end of campaign geode. Running in a group of 20 in noCP. With 1.7k mag regen and 1 cost reduction glyph this felt like I was constantly out of Magicka. It’s an issue, and the cost increase of extended Ritual didn’t help here.

Ashamray

What I worry about is healbots. A typical pvp player needs two things: to kill and to survive, so he forced to split his resources between. A healbot needs only to survive, that's why he can run 3 defensive sets + 3 CP stars in healing + recovery from mundus, enchants and skill slots.
Any buff will make this lazy gameplay stronger and I don't think that it is good.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Ashamray wrote: »

What I worry about is healbots. A typical pvp player needs two things: to kill and to survive, so he forced to split his resources between. A healbot needs only to survive, that's why he can run 3 defensive sets + 3 CP stars in healing + recovery from mundus, enchants and skill slots.
Any buff will make this lazy gameplay stronger and I don't think that it is good.

Keeping your friends alive is lazy now? What a world we live in.

Qbiken

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

What I worry about is healbots. A typical pvp player needs two things: to kill and to survive, so he forced to split his resources between. A healbot needs only to survive, that's why he can run 3 defensive sets + 3 CP stars in healing + recovery from mundus, enchants and skill slots.
Any buff will make this lazy gameplay stronger and I don't think that it is good.

Keeping your friends alive is lazy now? What a world we live in.

Dedicating yourself to a support-role with a clear purpose has always been a lazy gameplay

Ashamray

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

What I worry about is healbots. A typical pvp player needs two things: to kill and to survive, so he forced to split his resources between. A healbot needs only to survive, that's why he can run 3 defensive sets + 3 CP stars in healing + recovery from mundus, enchants and skill slots.
Any buff will make this lazy gameplay stronger and I don't think that it is good.

Keeping your friends alive is lazy now? What a world we live in.

Yep it is. Casting several breaths of life it easy. I have to say that in pve it's much harder because all your sets and skills work not for you but for dps increase, and there are plenty of mechanics when group take massive damage and can't heal itself. Meanwhile in pvp everyone has a pretty strong heals and sustain so even blobs of destro ultimates can be survived without a dedicated healer. Friends you're talking about don't even need your healing sometimes ;D

dodgehopper_ESO

Checkmath wrote: »

wardens have more kind of a house with corrupt pollen....major defile on every enemy in it....

This is why I say Warden is what Templar wishes it were.

dodgehopper_ESO

Ashamray wrote: »

What I worry about is healbots. A typical pvp player needs two things: to kill and to survive, so he forced to split his resources between. A healbot needs only to survive, that's why he can run 3 defensive sets + 3 CP stars in healing + recovery from mundus, enchants and skill slots.
Any buff will make this lazy gameplay stronger and I don't think that it is good.

Other games solve this by making Healing and Damage two different traits. In this case spell power and magic = more damage and more heals. Its simply a matter of slotting the right skills on the bar.

maxjapank

Ashamray wrote: »

Yep it is. Casting several breaths of life it easy. I have to say that in pve it's much harder because all your sets and skills work not for you but for dps increase, and there are plenty of mechanics when group take massive damage and can't heal itself. Meanwhile in pvp everyone has a pretty strong heals and sustain so even blobs of destro ultimates can be survived without a dedicated healer. Friends you're talking about don't even need your healing sometimes ;D

The majority of heals in pvp come from Healing Springs or Energy Orb (aka Bubbles). Breath of Life is a good burst heal and may see more play in solo play or a small group, but it is not what saves the day in fights. It's Remembrance.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

What I worry about is healbots. A typical pvp player needs two things: to kill and to survive, so he forced to split his resources between. A healbot needs only to survive, that's why he can run 3 defensive sets + 3 CP stars in healing + recovery from mundus, enchants and skill slots.
Any buff will make this lazy gameplay stronger and I don't think that it is good.

Other games solve this by making Healing and Damage two different traits. In this case spell power and magic = more damage and more heals. Its simply a matter of slotting the right skills on the bar.

I hope they never make Healing and Damage two different traits. I do think they could make Magicka scale a bit less. Make players choose more between having either more resource, more spell power, or more regen. For some classes, it's too easy to let max Magicka alone be your main damage source.

datgladiatah

Ashamray wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

What I worry about is healbots. A typical pvp player needs two things: to kill and to survive, so he forced to split his resources between. A healbot needs only to survive, that's why he can run 3 defensive sets + 3 CP stars in healing + recovery from mundus, enchants and skill slots.
Any buff will make this lazy gameplay stronger and I don't think that it is good.

Keeping your friends alive is lazy now? What a world we live in.

Yep it is. Casting several breaths of life it easy. I have to say that in pve it's much harder because all your sets and skills work not for you but for dps increase, and there are plenty of mechanics when group take massive damage and can't heal itself. Meanwhile in pvp everyone has a pretty strong heals and sustain so even blobs of destro ultimates can be survived without a dedicated healer. Friends you're talking about don't even need your healing sometimes ;D

I don't see how buffing terrible damage and survival mechanics is saying buff BoL. This is a nonissue