Templars need reform because the game has changed

Solinur

Maybe we need a Magicka Destro Staff and a status effect for magicka damage.

If they are at it they can just change Resto Staff to Magic Staff and allow to use it in the destro line. Then extend the Resto tree into different varitions (including elemental resistance buffs? ) and make abilities so more classes can heal with different playstyles and strengths.

Ashamray

datgladiatah wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

What I worry about is healbots. A typical pvp player needs two things: to kill and to survive, so he forced to split his resources between. A healbot needs only to survive, that's why he can run 3 defensive sets + 3 CP stars in healing + recovery from mundus, enchants and skill slots.
Any buff will make this lazy gameplay stronger and I don't think that it is good.

Keeping your friends alive is lazy now? What a world we live in.

Yep it is. Casting several breaths of life it easy. I have to say that in pve it's much harder because all your sets and skills work not for you but for dps increase, and there are plenty of mechanics when group take massive damage and can't heal itself. Meanwhile in pvp everyone has a pretty strong heals and sustain so even blobs of destro ultimates can be survived without a dedicated healer. Friends you're talking about don't even need your healing sometimes ;D

I don't see how buffing terrible damage and survival mechanics is saying buff BoL. This is a nonissue

Buffing survival mechanics improves a tanky healer even more, obviously.

dodgehopper_ESO

Solinur wrote: »

Maybe we need a Magicka Destro Staff and a status effect for magicka damage.

If they are at it they can just change Resto Staff to Magic Staff and allow to use it in the destro line. Then extend the Resto tree into different varitions (including elemental resistance buffs? ) and make abilities so more classes can heal with different playstyles and strengths.

Fear Staff/Illusion Staff has been my suggestion. Could also have Alteration staff.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Ashamray wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

What I worry about is healbots. A typical pvp player needs two things: to kill and to survive, so he forced to split his resources between. A healbot needs only to survive, that's why he can run 3 defensive sets + 3 CP stars in healing + recovery from mundus, enchants and skill slots.
Any buff will make this lazy gameplay stronger and I don't think that it is good.

Keeping your friends alive is lazy now? What a world we live in.

Yep it is. Casting several breaths of life it easy. I have to say that in pve it's much harder because all your sets and skills work not for you but for dps increase, and there are plenty of mechanics when group take massive damage and can't heal itself. Meanwhile in pvp everyone has a pretty strong heals and sustain so even blobs of destro ultimates can be survived without a dedicated healer. Friends you're talking about don't even need your healing sometimes ;D

If you have ever healed in PvP, you would know that if you are casting bol you will be dead soon.

In all honesty though, I really dislike PvP in this game. The only time I get any enjoyment is being a force multipler. Keep my friends and teammates alive is vastly more interesting to me then killing for myself. So much more rewarding. You get to make your friends feel good and your enemies cry, like you are doing right now.

Ashamray

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

What I worry about is healbots. A typical pvp player needs two things: to kill and to survive, so he forced to split his resources between. A healbot needs only to survive, that's why he can run 3 defensive sets + 3 CP stars in healing + recovery from mundus, enchants and skill slots.
Any buff will make this lazy gameplay stronger and I don't think that it is good.

Keeping your friends alive is lazy now? What a world we live in.

Yep it is. Casting several breaths of life it easy. I have to say that in pve it's much harder because all your sets and skills work not for you but for dps increase, and there are plenty of mechanics when group take massive damage and can't heal itself. Meanwhile in pvp everyone has a pretty strong heals and sustain so even blobs of destro ultimates can be survived without a dedicated healer. Friends you're talking about don't even need your healing sometimes ;D

If you have ever healed in PvP, you would know that if you are casting bol you will be dead soon.

In all honesty though, I really dislike PvP in this game. The only time I get any enjoyment is being a force multipler. Keep my friends and teammates alive is vastly more interesting to me then killing for myself. So much more rewarding. You get to make your friends feel good and your enemies cry, like you are doing right now.

You miss the point. You are describing exactly what's going on in PvE: healer is a "force multiplier". If you take your Worm Cult, Spellpower cure, resto \ destro, lightning blockade, Elemental drain, crushing. etc, you as a healer will be very effective in purpose you want to reach. But described build has nothing with a tank-healbot. Your support "force multiplier" build is actually pretty vulnerable and somehow balanced, but healbots (they rarely cast Healing Springs or Orbs) are already painfull to kill. The only real conter is Befoul + major Defile which is out of control honestly.
If Templar gets any defensive buff, it could make lazy healbot undeservedly stronger.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Ashamray wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

What I worry about is healbots. A typical pvp player needs two things: to kill and to survive, so he forced to split his resources between. A healbot needs only to survive, that's why he can run 3 defensive sets + 3 CP stars in healing + recovery from mundus, enchants and skill slots.
Any buff will make this lazy gameplay stronger and I don't think that it is good.

Keeping your friends alive is lazy now? What a world we live in.

Yep it is. Casting several breaths of life it easy. I have to say that in pve it's much harder because all your sets and skills work not for you but for dps increase, and there are plenty of mechanics when group take massive damage and can't heal itself. Meanwhile in pvp everyone has a pretty strong heals and sustain so even blobs of destro ultimates can be survived without a dedicated healer. Friends you're talking about don't even need your healing sometimes ;D

If you have ever healed in PvP, you would know that if you are casting bol you will be dead soon.

In all honesty though, I really dislike PvP in this game. The only time I get any enjoyment is being a force multipler. Keep my friends and teammates alive is vastly more interesting to me then killing for myself. So much more rewarding. You get to make your friends feel good and your enemies cry, like you are doing right now.

You miss the point. You are describing exactly what's going on in PvE: healer is a "force multiplier". If you take your Worm Cult, Spellpower cure, resto \ destro, lightning blockade, Elemental drain, crushing. etc, you as a healer will be very effective in purpose you want to reach. But described build has nothing with a tank-healbot. Your support "force multiplier" build is actually pretty vulnerable and somehow balanced, but healbots (they rarely cast Healing Springs or Orbs) are already painfull to kill. The only real conter is Befoul + major Defile which is out of control honestly.
If Templar gets any defensive buff, it could make lazy healbot undeservedly stronger.

if you are able you to focus me, my friends are all dead and i failed in my job anyways. also "undeservedly" is, like, your opinion man.

Autumnhart

You're right. Maybe they'll listen to you this time.

LordSlif

@Joy_Division awesome post

LordSlif

I have 5k hours as magplar but ive stopped to play as it because the class is unplayable:
.puncturing is broken
.toppling is broken
.offensive ults are broken
.cast time skill for a dot class = broken
Everything in this class is not working and we've told it to u ZOS @ZOS_Wrobel a bunch of times and the class STILL broken
Im with u @Joy_Division
lets make them know we are still here

James-Wayne

As a Main Templar since Beta and Launch days I couldn't agree more with this, thank you @Joy_Division that my pain is also felt by others

aeowulf

@Joy_Division amazing post, and whilst i completely agree I can see one major flaw. If all suggestions were implemented, no one would play other classes due to the lack of comparative fun. It's a game, people play it for fun. All classes *need* a post like this for balance. I mained a NB tank until Morrowind, some might say all fun was siphoned from that class/role, but it was literally destroyed with one change (that was probably required for nb in non-tank role). I've not found as much fun in ESO since, playing other tanks or NB DD.

ZoS seem to have a problem reverting changes, fully testing changes and/or listening to & acknowledging feedback. It is a complete disgrace NB tanks are still where they are after Morrowind all but removed them. Templar stam DD/tanks were also hammered particularly badly with those changes but seem to just about be trickling along. Trickling is not good enough long term, all classes should be viable in all roles otherwise, we are playing a game with only 5 choices. Then there are the other combos like DK healer which never had their chance. There are some gaping role holes in this game that need addressing, arguably with more importance than classes people play as until they are played they will not have a voice and be continually overlooked. They are not played for a reason.

I really hope you are selected as templar representative, you were one of my three nominations, and the only non-nb representative I put forward.

Aurielle

I ended up rage-quitting a vet dungeon yesterday on my Templar (whom I mostly PVP with, but have been tanking with lately to get my last three points of Undaunted). I felt bad after the fact, but it was unbearable: THREE Templars in the group, including another stamplar who needed Repentance as much as I did. The magplar healer was using Repentance as well, so the dungeon became an exercise in seeing who could activate the skill first.

I shouldn't have to fight with my team mates to be able to properly use a class skill. ZOS, if there's only ONE Templar problem you fix, please let it be Repentance.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Aurielle wrote: »

I ended up rage-quitting a vet dungeon yesterday on my Templar (whom I mostly PVP with, but have been tanking with lately to get my last three points of Undaunted). I felt bad after the fact, but it was unbearable: THREE Templars in the group, including another stamplar who needed Repentance as much as I did. The magplar healer was using Repentance as well, so the dungeon became an exercise in seeing who could activate the skill first.

I shouldn't have to fight with my team mates to be able to properly use a class skill. ZOS, if there's only ONE Templar problem you fix, please let it be Repentance.

I have had this happen to me, except it was just another stamplar. She voted me out as soon as I used repentance. Didn't even give me a chance to be like, you go ahead and use it. She was wearing 2 damage sets. I can have 1.6k regen on my stamplar if I switched food, I use a off meta build, so all I need to do is switch food to not have to use repentance but nope. My but is still sore from that boot.

More to the point, I would have asked the healer to stop using repentance in that group. There is absolutely no reason to use it on a healer these days and especially with 2! Stamplars in the group.

Aurielle

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I ended up rage-quitting a vet dungeon yesterday on my Templar (whom I mostly PVP with, but have been tanking with lately to get my last three points of Undaunted). I felt bad after the fact, but it was unbearable: THREE Templars in the group, including another stamplar who needed Repentance as much as I did. The magplar healer was using Repentance as well, so the dungeon became an exercise in seeing who could activate the skill first.

I shouldn't have to fight with my team mates to be able to properly use a class skill. ZOS, if there's only ONE Templar problem you fix, please let it be Repentance.

I have had this happen to me, except it was just another stamplar. She voted me out as soon as I used repentance. Didn't even give me a chance to be like, you go ahead and use it. She was wearing 2 damage sets. I can have 1.6k regen on my stamplar if I switched food, I use a off meta build, so all I need to do is switch food to not have to use repentance but nope. My but is still sore from that boot.

More to the point, I would have asked the healer to stop using repentance in that group. There is absolutely no reason to use it on a healer these days and especially with 2! Stamplars in the group.

It's a pretty sad state of affairs when use of a class skill results in undeserved boots and compels people to rage quit dungeons that are easy when you're not constantly struggling for resources. I didn't feel comfortable asking the magplar to not use Repentance, because she had every right to use it if she wanted to -- and anyway, the other stamplar and I would have been competing for it throughout the dungeon in any case.

The skill needs to be reworked such that multiple Templars can steal stamina from corpses. I like it that Repentance no longer restores stamina to the ENTIRE group, because that makes my Warden healer viable, but it's crazy that multiple Templars don't have access to their ONE source of stamina regen if grouped up or in an area with a lot of other Templars (e.g. Cyrodiil zergs).

dodgehopper_ESO

Aurielle wrote: »

I ended up rage-quitting a vet dungeon yesterday on my Templar (whom I mostly PVP with, but have been tanking with lately to get my last three points of Undaunted). I felt bad after the fact, but it was unbearable: THREE Templars in the group, including another stamplar who needed Repentance as much as I did. The magplar healer was using Repentance as well, so the dungeon became an exercise in seeing who could activate the skill first.

I shouldn't have to fight with my team mates to be able to properly use a class skill. ZOS, if there's only ONE Templar problem you fix, please let it be Repentance.

This problem is very infuriating and part of what makes it so disturbing is that they had to know how infuriating this change would be.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. I didn't feel comfortable asking the magplar to not use Repentance, because she had every right to use it if she wanted to.

I don't see it that way and I don't believe you ought to feel uncomfortable saying anything. Part of being a good healer is supporting your team, not hurting them. Using repentance on a healer hurts your team. The only good thing about it for a healer is it is "free". You can get the other morph and still get the regen so those are no excuses. It is a bad healer that uses the skill these days and you are not at fault for that. Chances are that the healer in question simply didn't know that they were screwing you the other stamplar over. The is pretty clear that only the caster get the Stam but some people have difficulty reading.

LordSlif

I feel so bad about my main class

Mr_Nobody

I've been rarely playing the game since last year February, however I do log in patch after patch to see how templars are doing (magicka). I check my spells for new stuff - all same as back in 2014, I check patch notes - a few nerfs there and there to my beloved class.

I go into cyrodiil just to find out that toppling charge still doesnt work 50% of the time. The current fact that if you want to run light armored magicka templar in Cyrodiil you must have Pirate Skeleton set, yet, which is going to kill you 50% of encounters because someone told me its not fixed yet and is now a feature (lol'd, for real).

I mean, you better nerf that Radiant Destruction, or nothing else is going to happen.

This is relatively the only class i've played for 4 years on and off. Key problems:

- SUPER CLUNKY & SLOW
- No reliable gap closer which would work with any spells aftercast
- No reliable melee damage, unless your opponent is afk or if you are just sweeping chokes. Idk how Aussies play this game but im from EU and I play on NA servers I gotta tell I need to stand ON my opponent for my jabs to hit, and still, rarely hits if the opponent is moving.
- Except Dark Flare, super low damage overall
- Half of the abilities/passives can be found through item sets, or are not helping any of the PvP playstyles
- Like 80% of the abilities through templar lines are not even worth slotting. (except cleanse, radiant, heal & channeled focus)
- Magicka Templar is out of current stage of the game. All you can do effectively is healbot in a zerg
- No house to protect (homeless templar)

My 2 darkflares.

Oh yeah I forgot, Ultimates, I think you mentioned them. Lol. AS ultimates are complete trash. Any other ultimate from any line in this game is way better than those two. My imagination is that Zos Devs think templar is that kind of a class which charges into enemies, lays down its house and pewpews enemies. Possible, if they were afk. Still would take quite some time.

anadandy

It used to be that Repentance was a really neat skill that rewarded success by infusing allies with a nice heal and a welcome boost of stamina. It was, in short, an excellently designed support skill. Now? Templars in the same group fight over who gets to use this ability because it has become a selfish skill. This is a terrible mechanic. Allies should not be fighting over who gets to use what, period.

Whole post was excellent, but this in particular resonated for me. Repentance was such an excellent group skill, and now it's a wasted Skill Point. My gaming buddy and I used to run a Templar team back in the "glory days" - and we put up with a lot of the bad changes - but this is the one that made him quit the band.

tinythinker

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

This problem is very infuriating and part of what makes it so disturbing is that they had to know how infuriating this change would be.

Wouldn't be so sure...

dodgehopper_ESO

tinythinker wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

This problem is very infuriating and part of what makes it so disturbing is that they had to know how infuriating this change would be.

Wouldn't be so sure...

Either way isn't a very good sign is it? They either knew it would be a source of extreme frustration and competition between players or they didn't. Were it the case that they didn't know this it would show less understanding about the game than makes me comfortable. I think it was an intentional nerf. No class has had the recovery problems that Templar has had the last 3 years, not even Nightblade (year 1).

LordSlif

If u search in this forum for templars bugs you will see a lot of threads, points and suggestions, the real problem is how ZoS team is dealing with our feedback

FrancisCrawford

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

There is absolutely no reason to use it on a healer these days.

Slightly overstated. It's nice to have a zero-cost heal in your pocket for emergencies.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

and especially with 2! Stamplars in the group.

Hard to argue with that part.

Does the heal scale with stamina just as it does with magicka?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

There is absolutely no reason to use it on a healer these days.

Slightly overstated. It's nice to have a zero-cost heal in your pocket for emergencies.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

and especially with 2! Stamplars in the group.

Hard to argue with that part.

Does the heal scale with stamina just as it does with magicka?

i really dont believe it is overstated though, the heal you get from repentance is not a good way to help your team and that is the healers job. to help the team. repentance only leads to hurting the team, be they temp tank or dps. the only time it is okay to me to have repentance is when you are guaranteed that you will never have a stamplar or tankplar in your group. this is hardly ever the case. if you want to slot the skill for the passive regen buffs, the Radiant Aura morph is so much better for the team, it means you also dont really have to slot eledrain, though i would anyways.


the heal that comes with repentance does not scale with anything, it is the same size for everyone, regardless of stats, like dark exchange is for sorcs. the base is always 2970, just like the amount of stam the skill returns. the only thing that does make it go up is size in of course, percentage based amps. like i said, it is not a healers skill. it is a stamina "resource management" tool.

Feanor

I still remember so fondly when I cleared vMA the first time. It was on my Templar (who was Argonian before it became cool and BiS) and I heavily relied on @Joy_Division guide at that time. I converted my Templar to a full time healer now as I find playing it as DD is very unfun. Everything is channeled and so clunky, cast times left and right. I miss my old Templar.

Aurielle

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. I didn't feel comfortable asking the magplar to not use Repentance, because she had every right to use it if she wanted to.

I don't see it that way and I don't believe you ought to feel uncomfortable saying anything. Part of being a good healer is supporting your team, not hurting them. Using repentance on a healer hurts your team. The only good thing about it for a healer is it is "free". You can get the other morph and still get the regen so those are no excuses. It is a bad healer that uses the skill these days and you are not at fault for that. Chances are that the healer in question simply didn't know that they were screwing you the other stamplar over. The is pretty clear that only the caster get the Stam but some people have difficulty reading.

That's a fair point. I usually don't like telling people how to play or what skills to slot, unless they're being inordinately stupid (i.e. heavy attacking with a frost staff, then running around like a bantam guar with its head chopped off and/or yelling at me when that boss goes after them). You're right, though: that healer should have been a little more self-aware. Sure, it's a "free heal", but Templar healers really shouldn't be struggling for magicka (esp. if they're playing the meta Argonian or Breton).

Anyway, yesterday I tried experimenting a bit with a different tanking setup that gave me 36k health and 31k stamina and 1,200 or so magicka regen for Inner Fire. It worked great up until the boss fight... the damage dealers in the group weren't fantastic, and I actually ended up dying once (my worst nightmare when I'm tanking) because I just didn't have enough stamina for an emergency vigor heal when the healer was off focusing on an add for some reason, even though I kept weaving in heavy attacks. Then the next run had a stamplar in it, so I'm sure you know how that went...

I feel like a stamina junkie when I'm on my Templar. "Got any more o' dem stamina pots?"

Solinur

I guess that summerset preview kind of goes in the opposite direction of what is asked here. A damage oriented skill line accessible to all classes, that will further "water down" the experience instead of highlighting the individualistic parts of each class.

Aurielle

Solinur wrote: »

I guess that summerset preview kind of goes in the opposite direction of what is asked here. A damage oriented skill line accessible to all classes, that will further "water down" the experience instead of highlighting the individualistic parts of each class.

I haven't watched anything yet (just read the highlights on the ESO site announcement page), and... Damage-oriented? Doesn't really seem like it to me... If Time Stop is an AOE skill affecting multiple enemies, it might be nice for Templar tanks. Meditate could also help with the stamina sustain problems experienced by Templar tanks as well.

Of course, I'd rather not have to dip into a new guild line to solve issues particular to a class, but... oh well.

TheNightflame

@Joy_Division I agree I agree I agree! I enjoyed overland content on my templar (first character and still main) because the skills I used and how the templar played felt fun, each skill was unique, not just a source of generic damage output with different graphics, but now I no longer do overland (which is what puts the elder scrolls in elder scrolls online) and only use my templar to heal vet trials and other endgame pve content. The fun left in this game are the mechanics to play to (and don't get me wrong, I looooooovvvveeee good mechanics, but it just makes me sad that the characters don't feel fun in themselves).

IV_Deity

I main a stamina Templar and many of these issues overlap with us. My issue has always been lack of class skills as very few can be morphed into stamina versions, so most of my skills come from other trees. I chose to put down my stamplar for the meantime once I saw people walking out of my jabs. I began to really question it once I saw each strike hit for about 900 or so...when they usually hit for 1200+.

Passives aren't that great as you stated and abilities need buffs.

In end, great post.