Saptanking in PvP - Build inspiration thread!

Jeezye

Hey guys,

I'm calling for help and would like to use the joint brainpower of the community to reassamble a magblade pvp build which was formerly referred to as Saptanking. It has been my favourite playstlye for 3 years but has received many direct and indirect nerfes over the time, which makes it incredibly hard to assemble a properly working build nowadays. I have since then probably tried out any promising setup without achieving statisfying results. I'd like to start off with the objective of the build and the playstlye I am looking for to achieve:

OBJECTIVE:

As I'm I solo or small group player (usually under 5 people), I don't want to rely on the interaction with other teammembers. This means the build has to provide enough defensive mechanics to outlast a small group of enemies (for now lets say 5). Additionally, tanking is fun and such, but as long as you can't manage to kill anyone there's no point in playing that style in my opinion. That means, I'm not trying to achieve high bomb-blade like damage, just enough to apply decent pressure to kill players, maybe with potential burst windows.

Secondly, it is important to assess what means a nightblade brings to the table that can benefit this playstlye.

NOTEWORTHY AND DISCUSSABLE NIGHTBLADE MECHANICS:

Assassination Tree:

Soul Harvest - I love this skill for the ultimate regen it provides - as long as you kill stuff. Always try to put this one on my front bar/ execute bar.
Mirage - very nice buff for small resistanced and dodge chance. Sadly most of the time I can't work this skill in due to lack of slots.
Reapers mark - a VERY underestimated defensive skill in my opinion. It has a huge heal and damage potential IF you manage to actually bring down your focused target. I tried to build around that skill for quite a while, since its the only class native burst heal, but haven't manage to proc it reliably.
Merciless - THE go to burst damage for nightblade. Sadly quite hard to proc for a saptank, but ranged weapons open up this opportunity. Minor beserk also helps alot with damage, also for proc sets! (also tried to build proc-based saptanks in combination with major beserk from reapers mark)
Hemorrhage - worth mentioning, since its crit bonus also applies to crit heals. This is why I usually try to build my magblade around crit.

Shadow Tree:

Veil of Blades - Cool skill which provides decent damage and mitigation for an extended time. However stationairy, which renders it to be difficult to use in PvP
Cloak - probably the strongest defensive skill for nightblade, everyone knows it. However, I dont like it because its rather unreliable and does not compliment the pursued playstyle. Note: The crit morph allows your HoTs to always crit which is super strong
refreshing path - provides strong healing over time (higher than mutagen), procs our shadow barrier and also provides decent damage and major expedition. Really like that skill and include it in almost any of my builds
Fear - Both morphs are good, and they also fit into the playstyle. Getting jumped and beeing surrounded by enemies, this skill comes in handy to create opportunities to heal, as well as to go aggressive and apply pressure. Probably one if not the strongest CC in the game. I havent played too much with the trap morph yet, though it definatly looks interesting agains more enemies.
Shadow Image - a GREAT skill for sticky situations that needs some preparation, but once you get used to it it really provides extremely strong disengage potential - imo FAR higher than cloak
Refreshing shadows - I don't see that much attention to this passive, however it is extremely strong. Im also trying to build around regeneration, especially some stamina.
Shadow barrier - opens up skill slots because we dont have to get the major defensive buffs actively - amazing. Noteworthy that the uptime is higher in heavy armor!
Dark Vigor - NBs are the only class that gets passive max HP increase as far as im concerned. Really helps assambling a saptank.

Siphoning Tree:

Soul Tether - probably THE go to skill to provide burst opportunities for magblades, also provides decent healing. Havent used this in a while, but its surely powerful and fits the desired playstyle.
Swallow Soul - my go to spammable, due to minor vitality and rage. Always prefer that over conceiled weapons.
Healthy offering - now this skill is very discussable. it CAN provide a super high HoT + minor mending, however I couldn't make productive use of it because the upfront cost every 8 seconds just puts you in a bad place over all. I tested several builds, also with high HP, to make this skill work, without getting satisfying results - SADLY!
Leeching strikes - used to be so amazing. it is still decent, especially if you consider the stamina return for blocking. however I always found better skills that outmatch it for my desired playstyle
Sap essence - the bread and butter for saptanks, at least in the past. Sadly the heal it provides is fairly litte, the AoE damage is decent but not great, and its cost is fairly high. While I always tried to build around it as for the style of a "sap"tank, maybe I'll actually drop it in the future --> room for discussion!
Soul Catalyst and Transfer: Both provide ulti regen, which puts the class at overall high ult regen. good both defensively and offensively.
soul siphoner - great added healing power, which renders me to focus my builds around healing rather than shielding.

For those who dont want to read through all my thoughts and know nightblades already, here's A QUICK SUMMARY of what I think are the stronges mechanics I should build around to get the most out of the class:

- strong ulti generation
- reset potential with reapers and soul harvest
- high recovery (magicka, stamina and health)
- high health and magicka stat pools
- great healing power
- disengage potential with cloak/ shadow
- high crit damage and healing

As race I favor and run Argonian, which is in my opinion by far the best race for saptanking. I'm up for discussion but am pretty convinced about the choice.

ARMOR DISCUSSION:
Theres definatly room to discuss the usage of heavy (HA) and light armor (LA). LA provides good magicka sustain, crit which compliments nightblade very well, and penetration which helps with the offense. Heavy armor provides far higher resistances and healing. It outmatches sustain of LA since it provides both magicka and stamina (equal to ~270 regen of both) and also increases resource regain from heavy attacks (quite nice for a resto setup!). I have played many builds in both armor types and go back and forth between them. To cut it short, light armor really provides stronger offensive damage while heavy armor provides more defenses - what a surprise.

WEAPON DISCUSSION:

Ill try to keep this short and pregnant.
DW: nice added damage, but no tankability. Could work for a more damaged oriented saptank for resets, but doesnt provide much else.
2h: also nice added damage and access to forward momentum. Gained popularity among magblades, but for a different, more bursty playstyle.
Resto: great resource sustain and access to burst heals/ mechanics. My go to so far for all builds. I also like combat prayer to buff stats and open up the slots of merciless and mirage. Note: blocking restores magicka, which can be a nice source of resource sustain!
destro: I have done more damage oriented builds with resto + s/b, using EoS to proc reapers mark. Also grants access to elemental drain for more sustain, which makes reapers mark less valuable though. Frost staff tanking could also be a thing, but since it doesnt provide two 5 piece boni I havent identified a working build so far. The main problem lies in nightblade not having enough defensive mechanics so I feel forced to run resto. Can fit the playstyle though and I see much potential in using it!
s/b: the defensive go-to for blocking and two 5 piece boni. Usually ran this in combination with resto. S/B ult + resto also grants a nice synergy for resource sustain. Absorb magic can also provde a nice burst heal if built around max health, though it burns your stamina quite fast

Noteworthy skills from other trees that I want to refer to:

- Cleanse for burst heal when built around HP. Saldy very expensive so usually not sustainable
- Detonation for burst opportunities. Since Im targeting to face a group of players, this skill might work well.
- Mist form for mobility and stamina regen while in it. Quite nice, though I usually prefer Shadow or other mechanics
- Invigorating drain for insane ulti regen and actually a pretty nice heal when built around HP. Is counterplayable though.
- Harness Magicka can make up for a burst heal by giving you room to breath and your hots to fill up the HP. Used this in destro + s/b setups
- structured entropy increases your HP by alot. Haven't played with this a lot but I might switch sap for it so max health scaling heals work better (reapers/ cleanse)

Now a few BUILD EXAMPLES I tried over the last year:
- Ult generation with Tavas + other sets of choice: Didn't provide enough offensive pressure since Tavas by itself doesnt add anything, and you need to build around sustain on top of that.
- Maxstat build with Domi, Shackle and Trainee: AMAZING stats, however didn't provide enough mechanics to favor the playstyle - which isn't sustainable by just stacking stats. I though the high health could open up the usage for healthy offering, but in the long run it didnt work.
- Balanced setup with Groth + Shackle + War maiden on s/b: I ran this build for the longest time, quite succesfully. resto provided enough added healing to sustain, but the damage was quite lackluster and you usually cant bring down targets just by spamming swallow to death.
- Proc build: Using groth + overwhelming/thunderbug, I tried to push procdamage to compliment the nightblade damage (which usually by itself is too low for pressure). Worked fine, but resource sustain and healing power were too low.
I tried many more builds, but these were the most effective ones.


Ideas/ Setups I think could work:

I just acquired mechanical acuity and think this set can open the oppotuinity to provide burst in heavy armor to bring down players/ groups. Haven't identified a matching setup yet, but am working on it.
No other ideas so far.


I would really appreciate some input, I know there are tons of nightblades that miss this playstlye but gave up on it in favor of resto/destro. I think the described mechanics offer enough opportunities to assamble something decently working and am glad to hear your thoughts. Note that I didn't cover nearly all the thoughts I put into theorycrafting in this post, but I think it provides a decent overview of how this idea can be translated into a build. I don't concider myself the most experienced nightblade and theorycrafter, so I'd like to integrate your feedback and thoughts so we can jointly come up with build ideas to try.

Cheers!

Jeezye

Note I didn't touch on sets that compliment the mechanics/ playstyle. Will update the post later since I ran out of time

Xvorg

What about saptanking with pelinal's and 7th legion/Fury/ Veiled heritance?

3 pcs DKS also could be helpful. Maybe a weapon power glyph to increase dmg and a nirn weapon.

Off course, Lover and spell erosion are super important in a build like that.

And if you want a monster, Earthgore should be the way to go.

For race, Argonian master race, to get better heals and more health

Xvorg

In fact, I reached this numbers in the UESP editor

http://prntscr.com/ijzumx
http://prntscr.com/ijzvku
http://prntscr.com/ijzvtj
http://prntscr.com/ijzw05
http://prntscr.com/ijzw9h
http://prntscr.com/ijzwfl

(that's with 7th legion proc and major brut. The glyph shouls add some extra wpn dmg)

Jeezye

Xvorg wrote: »

In fact, I reached this numbers in the UESP editor

http://prntscr.com/ijzumx
http://prntscr.com/ijzvku
http://prntscr.com/ijzvtj
http://prntscr.com/ijzw05
http://prntscr.com/ijzw9h
http://prntscr.com/ijzwfl

(that's with 7th legion proc and major brut. The glyph shouls add some extra wpn dmg)

Lol that is some weird build, haven't considered a pelinal setup yet. To be honest though, I don't think your setup solves the main issues a saptank has. You neither get more tankability, nor more damage out of this approach. Definatly interesting though, I ran a few pelinal builds a while ago but have never though about applying them to a saptank build. What could make a hybrid build interesting is the access to vigor or forward momentum, which could solve the lack of healing.

I appreciate your feedback!

Xvorg

Jeezye wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

In fact, I reached this numbers in the UESP editor

http://prntscr.com/ijzumx
http://prntscr.com/ijzvku
http://prntscr.com/ijzvtj
http://prntscr.com/ijzw05
http://prntscr.com/ijzw9h
http://prntscr.com/ijzwfl

(that's with 7th legion proc and major brut. The glyph shouls add some extra wpn dmg)

Lol that is some weird build, haven't considered a pelinal setup yet. To be honest though, I don't think your setup solves the main issues a saptank has. You neither get more tankability, nor more damage out of this approach. Definatly interesting though, I ran a few pelinal builds a while ago but have never though about applying them to a saptank build. What could make a hybrid build interesting is the access to vigor or forward momentum, which could solve the lack of healing.

I appreciate your feedback!

Basically I tried something on the run. Maybe using shadows instead of cripple to get more tankiness and also apply minor maim could help with tankiness. Also using something like unstoppable with 7 pcs heavy to get moar tankiness and immunity could help.

Some other options could include S/B, but the glyph proc on blade cloak is too good to ignore

Aedaryl

@Jeezye

What do you think about that : http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=46434 ?

The stats are what you should looking for - you will sustain it I'm 100% sure.

I think you are forced to weave light attacks since shiphoning is good heal and good sustain.

NB burst is assassin's will + incap, if you have both, you have a burst window.

The tanking part come from heavy armor + argonian + syphoning heal + healing path + vampire mitigation + light champions + swallow soul + healing ward (choose it cuz it can't be defile but not sure it worth it) + blocking.

U can go infused health stealing glyph or nirn + health stealing poisons.

You can go S&B backbar with cloak or defensive posture if u prefer.


(cps can be wrong, do it quicly).

Jeezye

Aedaryl wrote: »

@Jeezye

What do you think about that : http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=46434 ?

The stats are what you should looking for - you will sustain it I'm 100% sure.

I think you are forced to weave light attacks since shiphoning is good heal and good sustain.

NB burst is assassin's will + incap, if you have both, you have a burst window.

The tanking part come from heavy armor + argonian + syphoning heal + healing path + vampire mitigation + light champions + swallow soul + healing ward (choose it cuz it can't be defile but not sure it worth it) + blocking.

U can go infused health stealing glyph or nirn + health stealing poisons.

You can go S&B backbar with cloak or defensive posture if u prefer.


(cps can be wrong, do it quicly).

@Aedaryl

yeah the froststaff tanking was actually something I wanted to take a look at. After all I tried exactly your setup (at least gear wise) with decent results. Good point with defile not affecting healing ward, have never thought about that. One more reason resto is a must have. The setup you proposed will be more like a classic destro/ resto, though Ill check it out eventually since I have all gear pieces accessible already

Jeezye

@NightbladeMechanics maybe some imput from your corner? You inspired me to many of my former builds!

Draxys

IMO, for a saptank-ish build to work these days, you have to completely forget how they used to work. I had a saptank back in the good ol days and it was incredibly fun to stand on the porch of an enemy keep with 40 enemies railing on you, but that doesn't exist today. There are perma blocking DKs who don't seem to die, but they can't do anything but block, so that's kind of useless to me.

Instead of blocking for mitigation, I'd go for maximum passive damage mitigation. Forget having your own damage stats or healing. Something like Pirate skellie, reactive, wizards riposte. Reactive can be easily replaced for something else similar. Cancerous build, I know, but the damage mitigation will be insane, and you can guard a friend which allows them to heal you or invest everything into full damage to kill who's attacking you.

Jeezye

Draxys wrote: »

IMO, for a saptank-ish build to work these days, you have to completely forget how they used to work. I had a saptank back in the good ol days and it was incredibly fun to stand on the porch of an enemy keep with 40 enemies railing on you, but that doesn't exist today. There are perma blocking DKs who don't seem to die, but they can't do anything but block, so that's kind of useless to me.

Instead of blocking for mitigation, I'd go for maximum passive damage mitigation. Forget having your own damage stats or healing. Something like Pirate skellie, reactive, wizards riposte. Reactive can be easily replaced for something else similar. Cancerous build, I know, but the damage mitigation will be insane, and you can guard a friend which allows them to heal you or invest everything into full damage to kill who's attacking you.

You're probably right about that, maybe even considering to not build around blocking as damage mitigation. It is probably best to just stack as much defensive minor/major buffs as possible for tankiness nowadays, especially since blocking costs that much and NBs dont have any means to regain stam (leeching strikes doesn't help a lot). I just put together a build with pariah, bloodthorn and priate skeleton which provices major and minor protection, minor vitality and minor mending, as well as major vitality with potions. Seems to work fine, but again purge is too resource intense to rely on as burst heal. Damage isn't bad too. Will need to do some testings in the afternoon

Xvorg

Jeezye wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

IMO, for a saptank-ish build to work these days, you have to completely forget how they used to work. I had a saptank back in the good ol days and it was incredibly fun to stand on the porch of an enemy keep with 40 enemies railing on you, but that doesn't exist today. There are perma blocking DKs who don't seem to die, but they can't do anything but block, so that's kind of useless to me.

Instead of blocking for mitigation, I'd go for maximum passive damage mitigation. Forget having your own damage stats or healing. Something like Pirate skellie, reactive, wizards riposte. Reactive can be easily replaced for something else similar. Cancerous build, I know, but the damage mitigation will be insane, and you can guard a friend which allows them to heal you or invest everything into full damage to kill who's attacking you.

You're probably right about that, maybe even considering to not build around blocking as damage mitigation. It is probably best to just stack as much defensive minor/major buffs as possible for tankiness nowadays, especially since blocking costs that much and NBs dont have any means to regain stam (leeching strikes doesn't help a lot). I just put together a build with pariah, bloodthorn and priate skeleton which provices major and minor protection, minor vitality and minor mending, as well as major vitality with potions. Seems to work fine, but again purge is too resource intense to rely on as burst heal. Damage isn't bad too. Will need to do some testings in the afternoon

Maybe good old Blackrose + permablocing, so constitution helps you with the block cost.

Other option I recall is Sentinel of Rkugamz. Properly build procs quite reliably

By the way, does red diamond proc on sap essence?

Taylor_MB

This is my "sap" tank build, Shadowguard.

1x Maelstrom Restoration Staff
2x Troll King
5x Wizard's Riposte
5x Transmutation

Basically 100% group utility build. Primarily healer + tank, not enough skill slots to be dps also, but you can drop guard and add 2 dps skills quite easily.

Have not tried since TK nerf, so maybe another monster set would be better now.

NyassaV

@NightbladeMechanics

Dudis

I've had an idea of a unique-ish build for my NB for a while, but never gave it much thought. Something like:

2x Blood Spawn
5x Wizard's Riposte
5x Desert Rose
2x Willpower (DW bar)

Idea is to sustain and build ult, basically be unkillable (hopefully) on your Shield bar, dropping ults left and right and sustain forever (stam might be an issue), but still have decent burst potential with Fear + Incap + merciless. Knockdown + high burst might kill you though, especially if you dont have a lot of (bad) people around you to sap back up to full

Some people might be instantly turned off by the build not having a resto staff, but I find the idea kinda refreshing. Another posibility is of course to change Desert Rose to some Heavy armor sustain set, but I'm not sure you'd gain that much survivability from it.

1H/Shield bar
- Swallow Soul
- Refreshing path
- Sap Essence
- Crippling Grasp / Mistform / something for a bit of mobility
- Harness Magica / Hardened Ward
- (Ult) Soul Teather

Dual Wield bar
- Merciless Resolve
- Mass Hysteria
- Blur Morph of your preference
- Entropy (?)
- Impale (?)
- (Ult) Incapacitating Strike

Jeezye

Ahh nice to see some attention to the thread, I appreciate it! For a quick update, I tried mechanical acuity in combination with a couple of sets and wasnt impressed. Mainly because you have no real control over when it procs timing combined with the pressure of several people on you makes it disfunctional for me. If you get that tether deto combo in the time frame off, you can kill few low health and wounded targets, but its not practical.

My new setup that I tried the last two days actually worked quite well. Went back to light armor, since crits and penetration are vital to maintain some damage and they buff your heals too. THIS is the setup, running pariah + bloodthorn + pirate skeleton for some very nice mitigaion and sustain. The damage was surprisingly good, I was able to withle down even decent players and if you time your deto with tether and merciless people who undererstimate your damage actually die.

After some testing today I sadly realized that pariahs armor scaling starts to exceed 5,2k armor (equal to fortified brass) just at around 40% health, which is too low and thus making other sets better.

Next one up will be Ironblood on s/b healbar, which im pretty excited about since the slow doesnt really change anything with people hammering on you anyways. Not sure about combination sets right now, might pick amberplasm again.

Taylor_MB wrote: »

This is my "sap" tank build, Shadowguard.

1x Maelstrom Restoration Staff
2x Troll King
5x Wizard's Riposte
5x Transmutation

Basically 100% group utility build. Primarily healer + tank, not enough skill slots to be dps also, but you can drop guard and add 2 dps skills quite easily.

Have not tried since TK nerf, so maybe another monster set would be better now.

I have actually seen your video and am happy to see few poeple still rocking that playstyle. Since all nightblade heals scale heavily on your damage done, I think the way to go is to also push your damage, to in turn become more defensive. Your build is great for playing with a buddy in controlled battlegrounds, but I don't think you can keep yourself alive when people snipe you in cyro while nightblades and wardens hammer on you.

Dudis wrote: »

I've had an idea of a unique-ish build for my NB for a while, but never gave it much thought. Something like:

2x Blood Spawn
5x Wizard's Riposte
5x Desert Rose
2x Willpower (DW bar)

Idea is to sustain and build ult, basically be unkillable (hopefully) on your Shield bar, dropping ults left and right and sustain forever (stam might be an issue), but still have decent burst potential with Fear + Incap + merciless. Knockdown + high burst might kill you though, especially if you dont have a lot of (bad) people around you to sap back up to full

Some people might be instantly turned off by the build not having a resto staff, but I find the idea kinda refreshing. Another posibility is of course to change Desert Rose to some Heavy armor sustain set, but I'm not sure you'd gain that much survivability from it.

1H/Shield bar
- Swallow Soul
- Refreshing path
- Sap Essence
- Crippling Grasp / Mistform / something for a bit of mobility
- Harness Magica / Hardened Ward
- (Ult) Soul Teather

Dual Wield bar
- Merciless Resolve
- Mass Hysteria
- Blur Morph of your preference
- Entropy (?)
- Impale (?)
- (Ult) Incapacitating Strike

I am much on your side that resto is definatly not a must for a nightblade. Reason why is the only thing we lack is a reliable burst heal to stack on the dots, but healing ward doesnt scale on enemies and will have little effect when outnumbered. I have thought about a similar build too, but with double s/b. Blood Spawn is always a very good monster set, especially for outnumbered fights and even better to make up for light armor resistances, plus the stam regen scales nicely. I don't like running desert rose since I think magicka regen scales better on light armor builds. Im running icestaff as front bar atm so elemental drain really helps with damage and stustain. Using Wizards ripost would porbably be enough sustain when paired with that or some other mechanics. BTW you mentioned "sapping back up to full", this sadly is missleading since the healing of sap is actually very small (I hit about 3,5k max against ~10 players today), average is more like 2k which won't keep you alive.

Dudis

Is the Sap heal really that bad? I must admit, I dont think i've used it in PvP other than the occasional bomb run. Maybe it just feels stronger from running it in PvE or something...

Elemental drain would help a lot indeed, and would let you drop Desert rose. I think you might be right that Destro is the way to go, but for the build above, i would probably go Inferno over Frost, since the destro bar is pretty much only for bursting.

Problem then is that i would end up with basically the same buld that I already run on my 2H/resto and destro/resto setups, and i want to try something completely new

The playstyle I'm looking for, I guess, is a sapping Magplar sort of, that can take a beating and still kill people with good burst. Oh and im mainly playing No-CP by the way.

StayAlfresco

I'm in agreement that in order to survive without a Resto, you need to build for damage and to be able to rely on kiting and heals to survive without a shield. https://youtu.be/3ERfEISls68

I was messing around with a double s+b playstyle for HoTR but haven't tried it again since they limited Harness to light armour. I think a s+b/2h playstyle could be valuable, and with image working as intended now, that would enable you to survive outnumbered. I may give this a go at some point this patch.

Jeezye

StayAlfresco wrote: »

I'm in agreement that in order to survive without a Resto, you need to build for damage and to be able to rely on kiting and heals to survive without a shield. https://youtu.be/3ERfEISls68

I was messing around with a double s+b playstyle for HoTR but haven't tried it again since they limited Harness to light armour. I think a s+b/2h playstyle could be valuable, and with image working as intended now, that would enable you to survive outnumbered. I may give this a go at some point this patch.

Cool video and interesting setup, I really like your use of defensive posture to create an element of surprise and extra burst. Its also interesting that you get away with using harness, which I felt like wasn't providing much defenses for me. Since Im looking to play a light armor build anyways, I'll see if harness can replace cleanse. Would be waaay more resource effecient and shields arent effected by defile as well. Will do some testings later. Also I think shackle + warmaiden has been one of my strongest setups so far, and your video proves that. The only problem I had with war maiden is that it doesnt effect the healing skills of NB (offering, path, sap heal?).

Dudis wrote: »

Is the Sap heal really that bad? I must admit, I dont think i've used it in PvP other than the occasional bomb run. Maybe it just feels stronger from running it in PvE or something...

Elemental drain would help a lot indeed, and would let you drop Desert rose. I think you might be right that Destro is the way to go, but for the build above, i would probably go Inferno over Frost, since the destro bar is pretty much only for bursting.

Problem then is that i would end up with basically the same buld that I already run on my 2H/resto and destro/resto setups, and i want to try something completely new

The playstyle I'm looking for, I guess, is a sapping Magplar sort of, that can take a beating and still kill people with good burst. Oh and im mainly playing No-CP by the way.

You got me there with your last phrase. During the time theorycrafting I quickly realized that the desired playstlye would be sooo much easier on other classes (DK and templars). But hey then you aren't unique anymore and my favourite char is the NB anyways.

The benefit of frost is that you can keep blocking, and since I run my single target skills on that bar Im not forced to switch back to s/b when getting pressured.

Adenoma

There are fun options for saptanking. People mislabeled sap tanks for "sap" because that's the ability they saw. Saptanks have always been about mitigation and heals per second. There are some broken builds out there for a sap tank that offer potent small group buffs that I don't notice a lot of folks here considering. My advice is 5x heavy with S&B/resto. Don't even worry about healing ward.

Get creative!

Adenoma

And fair warning: I'm not talking about building to get kills at the same time. I'm building to guard tank a friend and enable absurd group damage buffs.

Jeezye

Adenoma wrote: »

And fair warning: I'm not talking about building to get kills at the same time. I'm building to guard tank a friend and enable absurd group damage buffs.

And thats exactly what we're not trying to achieve I know and played several support builds, but they're fairly boring to play and only effective in small groups (>4 buddies I would say). We're trying to identify a allrounder build that works solo/ small scale

NightbladeMechanics

Sap tanking will never function as effectively as it used to. You can still make a tanky, high healing mageblade build, but you will not tank as many people, as self-sufficiently, or for as long as we could in the past.

Here's one of my old vids of solo sap tanking, followed by a build video explaining the mechanics. It was a complex build. You can still run it and be very survivable, but you'll feel a severe drop in magicka and stamina sustain today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y2zqQhN3Ys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZES4RlNrfU

Jeezye

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Sap tanking will never function as effectively as it used to. You can still make a tanky, high healing mageblade build, but you will not tank as many people, as self-sufficiently, or for as long as we could in the past.

Here's one of my old vids of solo sap tanking, followed by a build video explaining the mechanics. It was a complex build. You can still run it and be very survivable, but you'll feel a severe drop in magicka and stamina sustain today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y2zqQhN3Ys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZES4RlNrfU

I know that build and tried various variations of it, thats why I said I got inspired a lot from you Im not trying to achieve the same results that saptanks pre 1.6 achieves, but there must be a way to build your NB to be a resource efficient tank with damage potential to kill players.

What are your thoughts on major/minor buffs as damage mitigation over stacking armor? For comparison, applying major protection is equal to roughly 20000 armor+spellresistance. Does that mean I should just build around these defensive buffs and forget about stacking armor?

Second question, what is your opinion on healthy offering? I know people hate it, but I actually get very high heals out of this skill. According to my combat metrics though, it also actually deals the highest damage to myself in pvp fights.. When cast in advance though, it can be valuable imo. Any thoughts?

DoctorESO

I read the title as "spanking" in PvP!

Xvorg

Question, does Varen Legacy's proc on Sap Essence? If yes, it is on every enemy it hits (additional 3k dmg per enemy) or it's aditional 3K on the whole attack?

Jeezye

Xvorg wrote: »

Question, does Varen Legacy's proc on Sap Essence? If yes, it is on every enemy it hits (additional 3k dmg per enemy) or it's aditional 3K on the whole attack?

Yes it does procc on sap essence, and I've tested this couple of patches ago. Used s/b ult + high ult regen. Sadly the damage is cut in half in PvP as well (so its only +1.5k dmg), the sap heal will NOT be effected by the damage increase and its procchance is horrible horrible horrible. Even when theres 5+ people spanking on me It doesnt proc fast enough to empower every sap.

I was very excited about trying that set and even more disappointed when I did

StayAlfresco

I agree in that war maiden isn't the best set to use for this playstyle. Ideally you'd want to build for base stats so that your heals are effected too. I do think damage over sustain is more important for this playstyle and I think passive mitigation will be your best bet over holding block. Wizards, damage set, skoria is probably going to be my go to when I get around to trying this again. I also think light armour will be the way to go. Considering trying a s+b/destro for the ele drain sustain, so that I could go full damage on my glyphs. Without a Resto this could be tough to execute, especially in light. Kiting would be your way to survive, but is there much point in going s+b if you're super kite heavy? I just don't know. Thoughts?

Berenhir

Jeezye wrote: »

After some testing today I sadly realized that pariahs armor scaling starts to exceed 5,2k armor (equal to fortified brass) just at around 40% health, which is too low and thus making other sets better.

That's a misconception. Pariah already gives 2.5k additional armour from the 5th piece at 100% health and starts outperforming all other damage mitigation sets when you pass
68% hp. Additionally, it comes in arcane rings.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

Jeezye

StayAlfresco wrote: »

I agree in that war maiden isn't the best set to use for this playstyle. Ideally you'd want to build for base stats so that your heals are effected too. I do think damage over sustain is more important for this playstyle and I think passive mitigation will be your best bet over holding block. Wizards, damage set, skoria is probably going to be my go to when I get around to trying this again. I also think light armour will be the way to go. Considering trying a s+b/destro for the ele drain sustain, so that I could go full damage on my glyphs. Without a Resto this could be tough to execute, especially in light. Kiting would be your way to survive, but is there much point in going s+b if you're super kite heavy? I just don't know. Thoughts?

I'm still using maiden atm because its reliable uptime on the frontbar for damage. However I'm with you that its not ideal because it doesn't buff heals. To be honest, I think its not the set choice that makes the build, but the skills and mechanics to build. Theres lots of set combinaitons that decently work, but it just feels like the playstyle we're looking for is not supported by a nightblade in the first place. If only healthy offering was somewhat decent...

Berenhir wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

After some testing today I sadly realized that pariahs armor scaling starts to exceed 5,2k armor (equal to fortified brass) just at around 40% health, which is too low and thus making other sets better.

That's a misconception. Pariah already gives 2.5k additional armour from the 5th piece at 100% health and starts outperforming all other damage mitigation sets when you pass
68% hp. Additionally, it comes in arcane rings.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

Wow I probably didn't realize that. This makes the set actually pretty good, but it doesn't provide any offensive mechanics and I feel like running for major/minor defensive buffs still feels more effective than building resistances. Still thanks for correcting me!

IxSTALKERxI

Permablocking with siphoning attacks was the most important thing on sap tanks. The siphoning attacks nerf killed any chance of making a half decent sap tank imo.

If you want to make a sap tank, do it on a DK with inhale... basically you need to make an 'inhale tank' now instead lol.