Suspensions for Update 17 XP Exploit

Turelus

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Actually she has not. The forum community rules state clearly that discussions about specific actions on an individual account are not allowed at all.

Edit:

Discussing Disciplinary Actions: If you ever have questions or concerns about a disciplinary action or decision we have made on the ESO forums, or wish to appeal a forum warning or infraction you’ve received, we ask that you please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to do so (please specify that you are contacting about a forum-related inquiry or appeal). We are happy to discuss and review specific moderation-related actions with you, but we do not allow discussion of any moderation actions or decisions on our forums. If you have questions or concerns about an in-game disciplinary action, please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to ask about a suspension or ban, and any other support-related feedback. We cannot assist with in-game violations on the forums.

That's only related to forum moderation issues.
Ingame infractions and bans ALWAYS have been discussed freely here. In general, as well as for specific accounts.

Feanor is right you're not allowed to talk about actions taken against your own account, Emma's own thread was in fact locked under this clause.

However ZOS are also seemly relaxed about the discussion of it within this thread, so who knows?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Feanor wrote: »

It’s not. Read the last section. And threads about bans and suspension when specific accounts are discussed regularly and swiftly get closed, the most recent example being a certain PvP streamer that had been banned permanently.

Well, this thread hasn't been closed, just like many other threads discussing disciplinary actions in the game (like the "roleplaying at Bleaker's" thing) have reached 40+ pages without being closed.
Enough said.

The PvP streamer story, as far as I know, involved more serious infractions which ZOS did not want to be unveiled. But the IC-XP thing is a game systems' issue, not a crime, and there's no secret to it.

Feanor

Turelus wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Actually she has not. The forum community rules state clearly that discussions about specific actions on an individual account are not allowed at all.

Edit:

Discussing Disciplinary Actions: If you ever have questions or concerns about a disciplinary action or decision we have made on the ESO forums, or wish to appeal a forum warning or infraction you’ve received, we ask that you please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to do so (please specify that you are contacting about a forum-related inquiry or appeal). We are happy to discuss and review specific moderation-related actions with you, but we do not allow discussion of any moderation actions or decisions on our forums. If you have questions or concerns about an in-game disciplinary action, please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to ask about a suspension or ban, and any other support-related feedback. We cannot assist with in-game violations on the forums.

That's only related to forum moderation issues.
Ingame infractions and bans ALWAYS have been discussed freely here. In general, as well as for specific accounts.

Feanor is right you're not allowed to talk about actions taken against your own account, Emma's own thread was in fact locked under this clause.

However ZOS are also seemly relaxed about the discussion of it within this thread, so who knows?

It’s not only Emma but the general rule, see this thread for example as well: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/283248/banned-with-no-explanation

I don’t think this thread was meant for discussions about specific accounts either. But that’s for the Mods to decide.

LordSemaj

lordrichter wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Almost. People who are convicted of something they did not do will also exhibit this behavior. Every one of those 200+ accounts represents a convicted player, and they are awaiting final sentencing. This is the time for them to start a "panic" (aka appeal)

Appeals are through ZOS, not the public. The panic here is attempting to sway public opinion. We call that damage control.

Not entirely damage control, either. If someone is guilty, and they know it, it is damage control. If someone is innocent, it starts from insecurity due to a wrongful situation they feel they have no control over. Humans tend to run to the herd for support in such situations.

To the herd, though, it is not possible to tell the difference between a liar and the innocent. Some will tend to believe one over the other. I always advocate going to ZOS. People who go before the herd with their pleas could be forever branded as guilty, even if ZOS finds them innocent. The guilty have nothing to lose by this. They are guilty. The innocent have everything to lose.

You're dealing in absolutes here when the tendencies were given, even saying not entirely when it doesn't challenge what was said. When it's clear someone is taking the proposition side of a debate, someone has to take the opposition side and apparently I'm receiving flak for it, especially for pointing out that both sides are plausible. When the herd has no way of knowing which is the sheep and which is the wolf, running to it for support is ludicrous. Running to friends, to family, to coworkers and acquaintances is one thing. Running to the public eye is another and guaranteed to find you people arguing every possible point of view. Any time there is a scandal in the news you can expect to see social media lit with positions and denouncements in every conceivable trajectory.

The guilty have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Some people are okay allowing the occasional wolf into the herd while others prefer to stem the possibility. International travel requires multiple checks to obtain a passport because simply operating on the blind faith of a single source is absurd when there are multiple ways that source could have been compromised. So far, we're not exactly hearing anything that could not be reproduced by a guilty party, which returns us to the default stance of "We cannot know what is true what is not" which is a comfortable place to remain until something credible approaches.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Because it IS a witch hunt.
You're the best proof of it when you say the the loudest people claiming their innocence and explaining why have to be the most panicked and therefore the most guilty. That's a basic wrong and illogical assumption that's typical of witch hunts.

I'm the best proof? What? Witch hunts actively root out guilty members from a collective pool of innocents. This is literally the opposite circumstance, a pool of convicted among whom some are claiming innocence. The hunt is long since over, are you accusing ZOS of engaging in a witch hunt and unfairly casting the net in a carelessly wide manner? If so, I would love to see a basis for that beyond testimonies that per your own words fail due to "we cannot know what's true and what's not".

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Are you aware that there's an "ignore" button which you can use to prevent you from seeing comments that you don't like ?
It's much more efficient - and also much more polite than telling people to shut up.
Emma has every right to defend her position here. Without you wrongly and rudely implying that it makes her case worse.

Are you aware? I'm not telling anyone to shut up, if someone is getting emotional over the conversation then it's their own best interest to take a time out. Please don't insert words into my mouth or calling me rude for speaking the truth. This is a delicate matter with facts that you may not receptive towards. Personal feelings have no place in this objective line of thinking and to me it seems that you are eager to defend a friend. Do your friend a service and advise them to address ZOS directly as when you air your dirty laundry everyone can see it and comment on its appearance.

Turelus

Yeah, I know people who make new threads about bans normally see the threads closed, as well as duplicate threads discussing the issues if there is a main/official one already open.

However the official or main threads on the issue generally seem to have less focused moderation on the issue.

Every thread however always boils down to what we have here, the same debates and faces going back and forth until we're all blue in the face and find something else to argue about.

As I have said multiple times and many of those stating they're under a suspension have admitted doing the best thing one can do is speak with ZOS via the correct channels and try to sort things out.
It's entirely possible that in cases where players spend 90% of their time in IC ZOS could understand and just remove the gains, unsuspended and remove any marks. However that's not something we should be privy to knowing because it will just cause more arguments.

All I can do is put my faith in ZOS being fair in dealing with things on a case by case basis.

antihero727

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I just don't like the way this was handled . I would of rolled back gains on these players and apologized for such a buggy patch . But I'm not in charge or here to argue and I never play patch day just because I've seen very similar problems in the past . But whatever .

I agree but it’s always ZOS pointing the ban hammer at people for ZOS’s seriously bugged game. I am tired of this company acting like we are the issue when their QA department is the real reasons we have these issues. IT’S YOUR FAULT ZOS. These people weren’t using 3rd party software. These people weren’t doing anything but grinding for stones for crates as they should have been. Please stop being acuasatory and start being sorry.

zaria

Turelus wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Actually she has not. The forum community rules state clearly that discussions about specific actions on an individual account are not allowed at all.

Edit:

Discussing Disciplinary Actions: If you ever have questions or concerns about a disciplinary action or decision we have made on the ESO forums, or wish to appeal a forum warning or infraction you’ve received, we ask that you please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to do so (please specify that you are contacting about a forum-related inquiry or appeal). We are happy to discuss and review specific moderation-related actions with you, but we do not allow discussion of any moderation actions or decisions on our forums. If you have questions or concerns about an in-game disciplinary action, please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to ask about a suspension or ban, and any other support-related feedback. We cannot assist with in-game violations on the forums.

That's only related to forum moderation issues.
Ingame infractions and bans ALWAYS have been discussed freely here. In general, as well as for specific accounts.

Feanor is right you're not allowed to talk about actions taken against your own account, Emma's own thread was in fact locked under this clause.

However ZOS are also seemly relaxed about the discussion of it within this thread, so who knows?

If you are above cap the ekstra cp is pointless unless you take an half year or longer break from eso.
Yes you get a bit bragging right but other players will not see your cp as default.

Feanor

zaria wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Actually she has not. The forum community rules state clearly that discussions about specific actions on an individual account are not allowed at all.

Edit:

Discussing Disciplinary Actions: If you ever have questions or concerns about a disciplinary action or decision we have made on the ESO forums, or wish to appeal a forum warning or infraction you’ve received, we ask that you please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to do so (please specify that you are contacting about a forum-related inquiry or appeal). We are happy to discuss and review specific moderation-related actions with you, but we do not allow discussion of any moderation actions or decisions on our forums. If you have questions or concerns about an in-game disciplinary action, please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to ask about a suspension or ban, and any other support-related feedback. We cannot assist with in-game violations on the forums.

That's only related to forum moderation issues.
Ingame infractions and bans ALWAYS have been discussed freely here. In general, as well as for specific accounts.

Feanor is right you're not allowed to talk about actions taken against your own account, Emma's own thread was in fact locked under this clause.

However ZOS are also seemly relaxed about the discussion of it within this thread, so who knows?

If you are above cap the ekstra cp is pointless unless you take an half year or longer break from eso.
Yes you get a bit bragging right but other players will not see your cp as default.

It’s not about whether the CP gain is an actual individual advantage. It’s about opening Pandora‘s box.

LordSemaj

Turelus wrote: »

It's entirely possible that in cases where players spend 90% of their time in IC ZOS could understand and just remove the gains, unsuspended and remove any marks.

Even this much is unnecessary. From a strictly objective and logical perspective, marks against an account are not penalties. They are notices. Even if you are arrested in real life and found innocent, your record is not thrown in the trash. It may be suppressed by a motion so that other parties cannot look upon it but your record is permanent and unchanging. Even the childhood records of a person are merely sealed when they become an adult. This makes those records more difficult to access but it does not mean that information is inaccessible.

For someone who does not fall into a habit of making use of bugs, such a mark will go unnoticed. It was a fluke, a one off, an accident that will never be repeated again. But it's also a reminder for the authorities to be aware that something like this has happened before should it happen yet again. It's totally conceivable that you can stand trial for a crime and be found innocent with plausible evidence, more than is even being given here, yet committing the same or a similar crime in the future begins to form a pattern of behavior. In fact, there are programs in law enforcement that reduce or eliminate the penalty for certain crimes on account of it being a first time offense and prone to accidental cause. It's only when the action begins to happen repeatedly that the accepted excuses presented originally start to seem suspect.

I would also remind people of the original post.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

During our investigation, we took into account that some players may not have immediately noticed the bug, and it was possible they were not intentionally exploiting. The suspended accounts were those that undoubtedly took advantage of the situation.

Any marks given are in good faith that there was sufficient cause to do so. While the marks themselves are not likely to lead to any action, they should remain in case this turns into a pattern of behavior. Enforcing the rules is never fun or well-received, but they are often abused when too lenient and awareness of previous activity is one of the many methods the enforcers use to prevent their being taken advantage of.

OdinForge

ZOS handled this poorly that's plain and simple, bugs like this should not make it to live and if they do shut down right away. We all know that ZOS' QA dept is virtually non-existent. Now they have to spend three weeks going through a list to somehow determine who abused this bug and who didn't. As many people here are testifying many pvpers do not pay attention to either EXP or CP, even the CP point pop-up many of us do not notice while we're looking for pvp.

The biggest irony here is that many pvpers didn't even want pve mobs in IC, we wanted a good pvp update. And that many of the people I fight in IC when I play are now banned. Groups of players that farm TV and kill other players while doing so. Entire groups of people that I used to fight daily have been suspended and I don't believe any of them were abusing EXP gains.

I'm not banned because even though I play in IC virtually every time I log into ESO, I decided to do something else with my life the day of patch. But I'd probably have been included in that list had I signed in to find people and killing mobs along the way.

anitajoneb17_ESO

LordSemaj wrote: »

For someone who does not fall into a habit of making use of bugs, such a mark will go unnoticed. It was a fluke, a one off, an accident that will never be repeated again. But it's also a reminder for the authorities to be aware that something like this has happened before should it happen yet again.

LoL. Just LoL.
Someone accused and later found innocent is someone that has never done anything wrong. It's not "someone guilty who escaped punishment". And if you've done nothing wrong then you're entirely free to do "nothing wrong" again and again.
I know it's not very charitable but I wish you to be wrongly accused in real life and be confronted with your own views. Nothing surpasses personal experience.

LordSemaj

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

For someone who does not fall into a habit of making use of bugs, such a mark will go unnoticed. It was a fluke, a one off, an accident that will never be repeated again. But it's also a reminder for the authorities to be aware that something like this has happened before should it happen yet again.

LoL. Just LoL.
Someone accused and later found innocent is someone that has never done anything wrong. It's not "someone guilty who escaped punishment". And if you've done nothing wrong then you're entirely free to do "nothing wrong" again and again.
I know it's not very charitable but I wish you to be wrongly accused in real life and be confronted with your own views. Nothing surpasses personal experience.

I already have and it's partly why I hold these views. It's a horrible thing for you to wish on a person but I have personal experience with this nonetheless and find merit with the reasoning behind it. The law is not emotional, it's logical. Duty and service are met with resistance frequently by those who feel we should never convict anyone for anything ever because there is never enough evidence to satisfy them, or those who take one-sided stories posted as undeniable 100% fact of wrong-doing on the part of the authorities involved, despite the fact that "we cannot know what's true and what's not". It also requires reasonable evidence of foulplay so that the likelihood of innocents falling prey is diminished.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

During our investigation, we took into account that some players may not have immediately noticed the bug, and it was possible they were not intentionally exploiting. The suspended accounts were those that undoubtedly took advantage of the situation.

^ This suggests there was reasonable evidence of foulplay and that the likelihood of innocents falling prey was diminished.

That doesn't mean the system is foolproof or that individual cases cannot slip through the cracks, yet I am not arguing that position either. This has always been a matter of potential guilt and potential innocence and you're only branding me in such a negative way because you chose to side with the proponents, which naturally dooms me to argue the alternative position when addressing your remarks. There's a balance here that demands fairness, but fairness is a two-way street and does not mean being excessively lenient to the point that even the true exploiters get off with a slap on the wrist. Simply, I feel your brand of justice to be different from my own and so incompatible. You would live in a world of clever sharks while I would see that everyone exercise caution to not be mistaken for one.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

It's not "someone guilty who escaped punishment"

I would also remind you that I neither said nor implied this so please leave the quotes out when commenting so we know it is your personal opinion rather than an incorrect assessment of my position.

Cpt_Teemo

Astrid_V wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Anyone seen the latest Alcast achievement videos he uploaded today or yesterday? He´s been playing with a guy/gal with 1831 CP. I don´t say this person cheated, but 1831 ....

And what? For someone who plays everyday since beta having 1000+ CP isn't something weird lol

or participated in past exp exploits that ZoS did nothing about till recently for this one

Cpt_Teemo

antihero727 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I just don't like the way this was handled . I would of rolled back gains on these players and apologized for such a buggy patch . But I'm not in charge or here to argue and I never play patch day just because I've seen very similar problems in the past . But whatever .

I agree but it’s always ZOS pointing the ban hammer at people for ZOS’s seriously bugged game. I am tired of this company acting like we are the issue when their QA department is the real reasons we have these issues. IT’S YOUR FAULT ZOS. These people weren’t using 3rd party software. These people weren’t doing anything but grinding for stones for crates as they should have been. Please stop being acuasatory and start being sorry.

ZoS's fault for coding it wrong, but ZoS isn't the only one to blame and stop trying to act like you never signed a ToS / Eula before, because its a legally bound agreement that you will not cheat whatsoever how severe and stupid the bug might be.

anitajoneb17_ESO

LordSemaj wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

It's not "someone guilty who escaped punishment"

I would also remind you that I neither said nor implied this so please leave the quotes out when commenting so we know it is your personal opinion rather than an incorrect assessment of my position.

That's exactly what you implied (unless we don't use the same language ?) What you wrote is just one post above, everyone can read it, no need to quote over and over.

LordSemaj wrote: »

Simply, I feel your brand of justice to be different from my own and so incompatible.

Yep, totally incompatible. Therefore I suggest we leave it at that.

olivesforge

The amount of extemporaneous dramatic fainting on both sides here is rather unbecoming even to one accustomed to professions requiring such exposition.

ZOS is being more clear in how they handle exploits, and that is greatly to their credit. The fact that they are allowing the discussion to continue is doubly so.

There are undoubtedly some people with excuses who should have their situation examined and rectified to some extent. But one must note that to fall afoul of the ToS and the CoC, one merely has to have been the recipient of XP as a result of the bug - it's what's called "strict liability," and that's all that is required. Issues of intent, knowledge or experience are mitigating factors, but the violation occurred, and the player received an improper benefit no matter what occured.

It is not that I am unfeeling, but there is simply no way to suss truth from fiction on the forum. ZoS has the information, and we don't. It is likely that those found to have exploited (the "judge" in the matter has already found them in violation, and we are merely awaiting the punishment) did so maliciously, but it is not required that such be the case. There are likely a few who have mitigating factors, but those tend to be few and far between, and rightfully draw understandable suspicion.

As an aside and reminder, add-on usage is at your own risk, and ESO neither warrants nor guarantees their suitability for play. If an add-on prevents you from seeing the fruits of an unintended bug, it is your fault, full-stop. The "I didn't notice because mah add-ons" line is quite simply neither ZoS's fault nor their problem.

LordSemaj

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

It's not "someone guilty who escaped punishment"

I would also remind you that I neither said nor implied this so please leave the quotes out when commenting so we know it is your personal opinion rather than an incorrect assessment of my position.

That's exactly what you implied (unless we don't use the same language ?) What you wrote is just one post above, everyone can read it, no need to quote over and over.

Not at all. Marks do not exist to denote "someone guilty who escaped punishment", they exist to track past suspicions. Do you not understand the difference? How many times must a person innocently commit the same act before you stop viewing them as innocent? You're taking a mark to be overly personal when it's merely a precaution. Logic trumps emotion when meting out justice and there's nothing wrong with keeping watch on how many times a person has been found "innocent".

Rave the Histborn

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

Ehh, idk about this one. Had it been 5m gold instead of xp, absolutely. But leveling characters affects no one but those doing so. In my opinion, this was a "ahh damn, fix the bug and move on" case. Sometimes things like this happen and when no achievements or collectibles/consumables are involved, I think it's best to just fix it and not let it happen again. It's nice to see Zos taking action, but I disagree with something that does not affect other players being a bannable offense.

That being said, if so many people are willing to exploit experience, maybe Zos should take a look at adding a character level token to the crown store.

I agree, I don't think they should be banned even temporarily. I think if you look at the bigger picture with the IC bug, the storage deletion bug, PC EU on patch day, the bugs in vSP that were never fixed I really don't think it's warranted. If the patch dropped and that was the only major bug then I'm in ZOS's corner and I 100% agree and think this is well done and well communicated, however, it's not. I think ZOS/the community as a whole should see it as an issue of product quality and maybe there should be an extra week between PTS and the launch to allow for more bug fixes. Hopefully that could squash most of the bugs before stuff like this happens on the live server.

Cheater say what?

Oh I'm not a cheater, I'm also just not a complete moron like you apparently XD


If you think THIS is cheating then YOU'RE part of the reason that actual cheating in this game still exists. You applaud the devs for temp banning "cheaters" that used an xp glitch for more CP that doesn't effect anybody. It's cool though they could be doing something like not introducing bugs in the first place, banning actual cheaters (there's how many zones with Bot trains that are visible and not taken care of). I must be crazy to ask for that though

Go put some actual play time in the game then come back here

antihero727

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

antihero727 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I just don't like the way this was handled . I would of rolled back gains on these players and apologized for such a buggy patch . But I'm not in charge or here to argue and I never play patch day just because I've seen very similar problems in the past . But whatever .

I agree but it’s always ZOS pointing the ban hammer at people for ZOS’s seriously bugged game. I am tired of this company acting like we are the issue when their QA department is the real reasons we have these issues. IT’S YOUR FAULT ZOS. These people weren’t using 3rd party software. These people weren’t doing anything but grinding for stones for crates as they should have been. Please stop being acuasatory and start being sorry.

ZoS's fault for coding it wrong, but ZoS isn't the only one to blame and stop trying to act like you never signed a ToS / Eula before, because its a legally bound agreement that you will not cheat whatsoever how severe and stupid the bug might be.

I fully understand the TOS. I am unhappy with their approach on these issues. Honestly if it was just a couple of times a year a game breaking bug came out I would be on their side. ZOS repeatedly has these major bugs after patches but only a few actually gets fixed. They need to stop accusing and threatening and get to the sorrys and progress getting their code fixed so these “exploits” (their bad QA) gets fixed faster. Get off your high horse @Cpt_Teemo your defending something so broken.

anitajoneb17_ESO

LordSemaj wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

It's not "someone guilty who escaped punishment"

I would also remind you that I neither said nor implied this so please leave the quotes out when commenting so we know it is your personal opinion rather than an incorrect assessment of my position.

That's exactly what you implied (unless we don't use the same language ?) What you wrote is just one post above, everyone can read it, no need to quote over and over.

Not at all. Marks do not exist to denote "someone guilty who escaped punishment", they exist to track past suspicions. Do you not understand the difference? How many times must a person innocently commit the same act before you stop viewing them as innocent? You're taking a mark to be overly personal when it's merely a precaution. Logic trumps emotion when meting out justice and there's nothing wrong with keeping watch on how many times a person has been found "innocent".

You don't get it.
Investigations and trials are there to confirm or clear suspicions. If the suspected person is declared innocent it means that the suspicion is CLEARED. No track of it anywhere.
You imply exactly the same thing as before : that suspects are kind of "half-guilty", that they must have been suspected for a reason, and they have a responsibility in being suspected and that they could have avoided being suspected in the first place.
That's the part I strongly disagree with.

Imagine I visit my neighbour, find him dead by gunshot in his garden, call the cops. They'll LOGICALLY suspect me (as well as other people) UNTIL the investigation proves me innocent - which should happen quite quickly. Should I live with a note of "potential killer" in my records for the rest of my life ? Should I have left the place without calling the cops in order to avoid being suspected ? That makes no sense.
And should such a scenario occur TWICE in my lifetime (quite unlikely, but not impossible) I would not be more guilty the second time nor should I be suspected more strongly than the first time. In both cases, it's the investigation that should clear things up, not my personal history.
I hope I made myself more clear.

Anyway we're going wayyy off topic here and probably won't agree so let's leave it at that.

LordSemaj

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

You don't get it.
Investigations and trials are there to confirm or clear suspicions. If the suspected person is declared innocent it means that the suspicion is CLEARED. No track of it anywhere.

This is precisely what is incorrect. The record remains, suspicion is not cleared, it's put to the side. If the suspected person coincidentally gets into the same circumstances, the suspicion is greater. How can the suspicion be greater if the original suspicion was cleared? Whether it's abusers, serial killers, drug mules, or the bleeding mafia, the world is full of people who are proven innocent but come back on repeat charges. Those suspicions -do accumulate- and future convictions can even overturn previously exoneration when sentencing limits the penalty by number of offenses. I'm sorry that you believe the world works differently or that it operates under some alternate measure of fairness.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

You imply exactly the same thing as before : that suspects are kind of "half-guilty", that they must have been suspected for a reason, and they have a responsibility in being suspected and that they could have avoided being suspected in the first place.
That's the part I strongly disagree with.

No, there is no such thing as half-guilty. There is such thing as "we don't know what is true and what is not true". People are either innocent or guilty, there's no half-way about it, however that doesn't mean we trust blindly as fools either. Not knowing the truth is evident even when the evidence suggests we do. A person who is found innocent is no longer presently under suspicion but the documentation and circumstances remain. There is no erasing an arrest, there is expunging it from public record but not from the private official ones. Future incidents can and HAVE caused old cases to be reopened and reexamined because what was apparently true previously was not in actuality. You're incorrect regarding the implication as both the original and followup posts argue that marks serve as a notice that something has previously occurred, not the guilt or lack thereof of the person involved. This especially happens in the private sector. When your friend says they believe you or forgive you, that matter you buried can be reopened at any time in the future if similar circumstances come about. Funnily enough, it normally applies to cheating as well.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Imagine I visit my neighbour, find him dead by gunshot in his garden, call the cops. They'll LOGICALLY suspect me (as well as other people) UNTIL the investigation proves me innocent - which should happen quite quickly. Should I live with a note of "potential killer" in my records for the rest of my life ? Should I have left the place without calling the cops in order to avoid being suspected ? That makes no sense.
And should such a scenario occur TWICE in my lifetime (quite unlikely, but not impossible) I would not be more guilty the second time nor should I be suspected more strongly than the first time. In both cases, it's the investigation that should clear things up, not my personal history.
I hope I made myself more clear.

The second time would definitely garner more suspicion than the first. By the same token, imagine if coincidentally every city I visit has people that I know dropping dead with no witnesses. Or if all my neighbors seem to be dying by gunshots and I'm the one who keeps finding their corpse before anyone else. Do you truly think that means I should not be more closely investigated? Actual real life killers have done these things and were only caught due to this recurring suspicion that prompted greater action. Because lest you forget, we're not discussing guilt here, you're the one who keeps assuming that implication. We're discussing suspicion and that definitely escalates the more times you are found repeating the circumstances.

Cpt_Teemo

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

Ehh, idk about this one. Had it been 5m gold instead of xp, absolutely. But leveling characters affects no one but those doing so. In my opinion, this was a "ahh damn, fix the bug and move on" case. Sometimes things like this happen and when no achievements or collectibles/consumables are involved, I think it's best to just fix it and not let it happen again. It's nice to see Zos taking action, but I disagree with something that does not affect other players being a bannable offense.

That being said, if so many people are willing to exploit experience, maybe Zos should take a look at adding a character level token to the crown store.

I agree, I don't think they should be banned even temporarily. I think if you look at the bigger picture with the IC bug, the storage deletion bug, PC EU on patch day, the bugs in vSP that were never fixed I really don't think it's warranted. If the patch dropped and that was the only major bug then I'm in ZOS's corner and I 100% agree and think this is well done and well communicated, however, it's not. I think ZOS/the community as a whole should see it as an issue of product quality and maybe there should be an extra week between PTS and the launch to allow for more bug fixes. Hopefully that could squash most of the bugs before stuff like this happens on the live server.

Cheater say what?

Oh I'm not a cheater, I'm also just not a complete moron like you apparently XD


If you think THIS is cheating then YOU'RE part of the reason that actual cheating in this game still exists. You applaud the devs for temp banning "cheaters" that used an xp glitch for more CP that doesn't effect anybody. It's cool though they could be doing something like not introducing bugs in the first place, banning actual cheaters (there's how many zones with Bot trains that are visible and not taken care of). I must be crazy to ask for that though

Go put some actual play time in the game then come back here

Your the actual reason cheating exists cause I'm not a defender of exploiters, what don't you understand about it being an exploit no matter who used it lol in turn I consider defenders of cheaters actual cheaters as well

Oh btw, I have played the game since beta and recently came back last year I've played enough, 14 max level chars with 750 cp+, and a 15th leveling whenever I have the time

And since were talking about who played before who, why did you even join the forums a month ago, I've been here since 2013

VaranisArano

antihero727 wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

antihero727 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I just don't like the way this was handled . I would of rolled back gains on these players and apologized for such a buggy patch . But I'm not in charge or here to argue and I never play patch day just because I've seen very similar problems in the past . But whatever .

I agree but it’s always ZOS pointing the ban hammer at people for ZOS’s seriously bugged game. I am tired of this company acting like we are the issue when their QA department is the real reasons we have these issues. IT’S YOUR FAULT ZOS. These people weren’t using 3rd party software. These people weren’t doing anything but grinding for stones for crates as they should have been. Please stop being acuasatory and start being sorry.

ZoS's fault for coding it wrong, but ZoS isn't the only one to blame and stop trying to act like you never signed a ToS / Eula before, because its a legally bound agreement that you will not cheat whatsoever how severe and stupid the bug might be.

I fully understand the TOS. I am unhappy with their approach on these issues. Honestly if it was just a couple of times a year a game breaking bug came out I would be on their side. ZOS repeatedly has these major bugs after patches but only a few actually gets fixed. They need to stop accusing and threatening and get to the sorrys and progress getting their code fixed so these “exploits” (their bad QA) gets fixed faster. Get off your high horse Cpt_Teemo your defending something so broken.

So thing is, the TOS and the COC we signed don't care that its ZOS' fault. In fact, we agree to not take advantage of ZOS' mistakes.

Is the bug ZOS' fault? YEP! Hard to see where it isn't.

Does that absolve you or any other player of our responsibility to follow the TOS and COC we agreed to when we play the game? NOPE!

I'm sympathetic to your point that ZOS should clean their own house of bugs, but I fail to see why that necessarily means they shouldn't deal with the players who exploited this bug in violation of the TOS and COC those players agreed to.

Lucifers_Pain

Ok so I see all these people calling out cheaters for abusing the xp system. I will explain what happened that day for me. The servers was down due to the update. As soon as the servers came up I logged in and went to the city. 90% of my game play is in the city, not Grahtwood, not cryodiil, not craiglorn... the city! Its where I live and love to play. So I log on and go to the city with a friend. We are fighting blues and reds immediately and are having fun as we normally do. Mobs are not avoidable so we kill mobs and bosses and fight reds and blues. Its not very often that there is even a time to stop and breath in the city. You are always ready to fight... and you usually are. About 15 to 20 mins in I finally realize that the xp is too high. I say in chat to my friend. Hey do you notice xp is not right or is it just me? We get sidetracked with some more blues or reds. We then get back to killing bosses and I realize xp is still weird. I ask in guild chat if anyone else has noticed xp is way too high. Everyone in guild says no xp is just fine so we fight some more bosses and enemy. Then I notice my champion points and say in guild chat... ok there is for sure something broke here and it must be happening only in the city. (my chat log will clearly show this). I then proceed to kill a few more mobs and note the xp in a test. Yep xp is clearly broke so I then take the time to submit the bug to eso. Ok ticket has been submitted and jokingly I put in the ticket this isn't one of those cases where you respond "Working as intended" to be funny. I'm guessing I was the first or only person to submit one since it was right after the server was up. Knowing eso would simply fix the error and roll back my xp I killed a few more mobs not thinking much more into this as I am cp 900+ and gain nothing from xp. After awhile someone said you probably better leave or you could get in trouble. Not really sure how I would get in trouble for a error on eso's part I got scared and left anyway. You have to understand xp means nothing to me. I don't count it or care about it and never have unless I was leveling a new toon. I was there to play and have fun. Nothing more and no ill intentions. I did not log to a lowbie toon and level him, I did not hear about the bug and go to the city to grind levels. I did nothing wrong and just assumed eso would fix my cp and the day goes on. Gaining CP does nothing for a max toon so how is that called a exploit? I would always stay ahead of cap regardless. My skills are cap as well for those who want to cry about that too. the definition of a exploit is: make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource). XP for a person above 720 currently does NOTHING unless skills was leveled at that time.

Call me crazy but how is this any different from running a dungeon and bypassing mobs and bosses by jumping walls and swimming in lava to get around parts of the dungeon so that you can get your weapon or helm that your farming or get the dungeon done faster. By all rights that's the same kind of exploiting is it not? And don't tell me nobody has ever done that because every person who has farmed a dungeon has exploited in some way. There is no way to argue this... its the same kind of exploit that you don't even consider a exploit. Some people did go to the city to farm xp. I did NOT go to the city to farm xp but I am still paying the same price for being there doing what I do every single day even though im the one that submitted a ticket.

How does eso allow people for 2 years to grind out levels using bot trains or allow farming node toons to gather material and sell it on the market or allow meots addons that is clearly a cheat but I get in trouble for a bug error on there part? Its absurd. I do understand that some people exploited it by gaining levels but I was not one of them.

Its not fair at a high percentage of people in eso has unknowingly and knowingly exploited but we are getting singled out. I loved this game and probably have over 2000 hours and lots of money invested but this has left me feeling a bit salty when I had NO ill intentions but still got disciplined.

Nasaman

VaranisArano

Lucifers_Pain wrote: »

Its not fair at all. I loved this game and probably have over 2000 hours and lots of money invested but this has left me feeling a bit salty when I had NO ill intentions but still got disciplined.

Nasaman

A. This would be a great thing to put in your appeal to ZOS. Not sure how we on the forums can help you.

B. Here's the Code of Conduct (par bolded by me for emphasis)
5.2 Users will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax Game, Service, forum, or other games or services provided by ZeniMax. Users will not intentionally use or share any bug found within any ZeniMax Game, real or fictitious, regardless of whether or not it grants an unfair advantage. You will not directly or indirectly communicate the existence of any such bug to any other user of the ZeniMax Service (in game or on a ZeniMax service). Report bugs and exploits using the in-game portal or via http://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/home.

So whether or not you gain a benefit from it doesn't actually matter. (I'm going to ignore any arguments about "intentionally" because the person I'm responding to clearly kept farming even though they'd reported the bug.)

C. I'm sure we'd all like ZOS to deal with other bugs and things we consider exploiting. Certainly ZOS seems to be working on taking a harder line than they have in the past. Why does their uneven enforcement in the past/now with other bugs and exploits somehow invalidate their enforcement of this exploit?

Ydrisselle

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

- Hence I also argue "let it be", against the furious "it's unfaiiiiiiiir" that's going on in this thread.

If that is your stance, then return the favor. The comments roll in because the excuses do as well. People who are innocent tend to place faith in the fact that they have done nothing wrong. It's the ones who know they have that fly into a panic.

I am well aware that "guilty" people will claim their "innocence" along with the true innocents.
That's no reason to declare everyone guilty.
The only correct stance for any of us is to say "sorry, I cannot know what's true and what's not".

lordrichter wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

LordSemaj : there are add-ons that block the on-screen announcement for CPs. You could earn 1000 of them in a minute and not be aware of it at all. That's what Emma_Overload is referring to.

Exactly. This is why people who use that sort of add-on and really had no idea what was happening as they were playing, need to proactively take that to ZOS and tell them. ZOS has said they can tell what add-ons are being used, and hopefully that means they can tell that an account has been using a particular add-on. That should be enough to at least seed a doubt. Whether it is enough to deflect an incoming "demerit" is the question.

I'm no IT technician but I doubt ZOS can see the existence of any addon that only manages the UI - which means, that doesn't exchange any information with the server.
Unfortunately I'm afraid there's no mean for ZOS to tell right from wrong either. Which is why I was against any wave of punishment in the first place - but we've discussed that on other threads already.
The "good" side is that it is rather short and temporary. As much as I feel for people wrongly suspended, because unfairness is a hard thing, they must realize how short TWO WEEKS are, and if they freak out over not playing ESO for two weeks, that's a little bit over the top. Just call it an "accident" and live with it.

I'm still concerned though about those "bugs" that are exploitable and that we might not notice. I feel lucky to have been on EU and not even in IC that day, because it could have been me not noticing. And I'll feel quite insecure playing on patch day from now on - which I shouldn't. I should feel excited and be in exploration and discovery mood on patch day...

I'm quite sure that more than 276 players were active in IC during the time this exploit was in effect, so not even ZOS declared everybody guilty - only those who they found guilty by their own inner standard. We can discuss if that standard is fair or not, however I doubt they will change it.

Gnortranermara

antihero727 wrote: »

I agree but it’s always ZOS pointing the ban hammer at people for ZOS’s seriously bugged game. I am tired of this company acting like we are the issue when their QA department is the real reasons we have these issues. IT’S YOUR FAULT ZOS. These people weren’t using 3rd party software. These people weren’t doing anything but grinding for stones for crates as they should have been. Please stop being acuasatory and start being sorry.

Yes, absolutely. This was 100% ZOS' fault. I'd support the bans IF some sort of special effort went into activating the bug, but when the bug was caused merely by playing the game, there is absolutely ZERO blame on the player. Playing the game as you normally would is not an intentional exploit. You paid for Imperial City and you should be able to play the content you paid for normally without suffering a ban because of a bug you have no control over, made no effort to activate, and may not even be aware of. The anti-exploit provisions should only apply if there is intentional action to activate or use an exploit, and I strongly suspect that ZOS is running afoul of consumer protection laws by their unjustified actions here.

Lucifers_Pain

VaranisArano wrote: »

Lucifers_Pain wrote: »

Its not fair at all. I loved this game and probably have over 2000 hours and lots of money invested but this has left me feeling a bit salty when I had NO ill intentions but still got disciplined.

Nasaman

A. This would be a great thing to put in your appeal to ZOS. Not sure how we on the forums can help you.

B. Here's the Code of Conduct (par bolded by me for emphasis)
5.2 Users will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax Game, Service, forum, or other games or services provided by ZeniMax. Users will not intentionally use or share any bug found within any ZeniMax Game, real or fictitious, regardless of whether or not it grants an unfair advantage. You will not directly or indirectly communicate the existence of any such bug to any other user of the ZeniMax Service (in game or on a ZeniMax service). Report bugs and exploits using the in-game portal or via http://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/home.

So whether or not you gain a benefit from it doesn't actually matter. (I'm going to ignore any arguments about "intentionally" because the person I'm responding to clearly kept farming even though they'd reported the bug.)

C. I'm sure we'd all like ZOS to deal with other bugs and things we consider exploiting. Certainly ZOS seems to be working on taking a harder line than they have in the past. Why does their uneven enforcement in the past/now with other bugs and exploits somehow invalidate their enforcement of this exploit?

Your are correct. I clearly had forgotten what was in the Agreement.

antihero727

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

antihero727 wrote: »

I agree but it’s always ZOS pointing the ban hammer at people for ZOS’s seriously bugged game. I am tired of this company acting like we are the issue when their QA department is the real reasons we have these issues. IT’S YOUR FAULT ZOS. These people weren’t using 3rd party software. These people weren’t doing anything but grinding for stones for crates as they should have been. Please stop being acuasatory and start being sorry.

Yes, absolutely. This was 100% ZOS' fault. I'd support the bans IF some sort of special effort went into activating the bug, but when the bug was caused merely by playing the game, there is absolutely ZERO blame on the player. Playing the game as you normally would is not an intentional exploit. You paid for Imperial City and you should be able to play the content you paid for normally without suffering a ban because of a bug you have no control over, made no effort to activate, and may not even be aware of. The anti-exploit provisions should only apply if there is intentional action to activate or use an exploit, and I strongly suspect that ZOS is running afoul of consumer protection laws by their unjustified actions here.

Glad someone can see this for what is is, trying to pass the blame for their mistake. The TOS shouldn’t protect them from a lazy QA department.

VaranisArano

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

antihero727 wrote: »

I agree but it’s always ZOS pointing the ban hammer at people for ZOS’s seriously bugged game. I am tired of this company acting like we are the issue when their QA department is the real reasons we have these issues. IT’S YOUR FAULT ZOS. These people weren’t using 3rd party software. These people weren’t doing anything but grinding for stones for crates as they should have been. Please stop being acuasatory and start being sorry.

Yes, absolutely. This was 100% ZOS' fault. I'd support the bans IF some sort of special effort went into activating the bug, but when the bug was caused merely by playing the game, there is absolutely ZERO blame on the player. Playing the game as you normally would is not an intentional exploit. You paid for Imperial City and you should be able to play the content you paid for normally without suffering a ban because of a bug you have no control over, made no effort to activate, and may not even be aware of. The anti-exploit provisions should only apply if there is intentional action to activate or use an exploit, and I strongly suspect that ZOS is running afoul of consumer protection laws by their unjustified actions here.

Playing the game as you normally would but also gaining bugged exp that's clearly out of the normal for the game as you play the game is NOT an exploit. Wait, what? (Hint: its not playing the game normally when you are getting bugged exp for playing)

No, we didn't have to do anything special to get the bugged exp. So what? The TOS and the COC we all agree to still expect us to stop what's causing the bug and report it.