Werewolf Theorycrafting (PvP)

IlCanis_LupuslI

@LegendaryMage @Qbiken the problem is with that low stamina rec youll take more damage then someone who runns higher rec and ccan avoid more damage. Redguard and Infused/stamina drain is nice but what will you do against a Magsorc who is streaking and rune caging you from a distance???? Stamina Recovery is more reliable then enchants/redguard passive which is only active while on the attack. As soon as your defensive or trying to kill some1 who is avoiding all damage(rolypoly/magsorc etc) your stamina sustain will drop alot. I cant remember where i read it but it was very true: the most werewolves run extremely low rec values and if you can prevent them from landing heavy attacks are really easy to run out of Stamina. And if he uses magica poison even better its easy to work your way around those^^ Cost poisons have been nerfed so hard last patch I dont feel them at all nowadays.... If i know someone is using magica poisons on me I simply only heal when they run out(works very well) since 1 guy alone doesnt have the pressure to get me down while cost poisons are active. And with Tripots even against people with poisons i have no magica issues what so ever. In big battles you get CCd on cooldown basically so with a stamina rec of 800 youll be heavy attacking more then doing damage.... And i think 9k armor pen is quite enough i prefer putting points under Shattering blows with the current Magsorc meta against high pen values are kinda pointless.

IlCanis_LupuslI

And btw i think with my resistances (37.5k) and my health(32k)+nb-elusiveness i wont be at the reaspawn very often, usually only when i bloodspawn so i can dump of my Quests^^
And concerning damage, yes survivaibility is important but so is sustain and damage, ur no to your team use if you survive for ages but have problems killing any halfwhat experienced player.... People tend to ignore people with high health values and focus the squishies, only beeing able to put high pressure on them as soon as they attempt that usually stops them.

Qbiken

5 Shacklebreaker
5 Green Pact
2 Skoria

Orzorgas Smoked Bear Haunch
Serpent Mundus
Continuous Passive + Berserk Enchant

[img][/img]

If I run solo I will probably swap out Skoria for 1 Chudan + 1 Pirate Skeleton. If I run in a group I would make sure to have two things:
* A warden (preferably magicka) using Expansive Frost Cloak
* A DK using Igneous weapons (for Major Brutality)

IlCanis_LupuslI

Now those are stamina rec values i´d feel more comfortable with^^
Resistances are a little low???? How do you mitigate high volumes of incoming damage(double meteor+ soul assault e. g. ) something i get hit by all the time^^
And i prefer more max magica since I run claws of life( I get my defile with infused/desease combo+fasallas) magica rec is when you run Claws of anguish next patch(which lost a lot of its punch with the duration nerf of defile to 4 secs)

Qbiken

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Now those are stamina rec values i´d feel more comfortable with^^
Resistances are a little low???? How do you mitigate high volumes of incoming damage(double meteor+ soul assault e. g. ) something i get hit by all the time^^

This build is first of all made for group-scenarios (4-6 people) with additional support. But if I go solo I´ll probably swap out Skoria for 1 Chudan + 1 Pirate Skeleton or go with 2 Chudan.

IlCanis_LupuslI

With me even in groups im usually the biggest target so I always run 2x chudan on my setups and i hate relying on other players so i make my build self sufficient^^

LegendaryMage

@Qbiken Shacklebreaker is good indeed, I would definitely try it with pact/chudan.

How much are your recoveries and wpn dmg without berzerk/continuous?

We need to take a look at raw stats, at most with major brutality to get an idea of how it looks on paper most of the time. Also, are you a redguard?

I'm just worried a bit about mag sustain and healing output on that setup with those resistances.

@Mangeli200194 cost poisons will destroy a WW, what do you mean they were nerfed? They're still 30% (which is huge) for 10 seconds (can be applied pretty much on a cooldown). Two heals and magicka is empty.

The heal will then cost 30% more, so if you have low recovery it will take ages to recover enough magicka just for one heal.

IlCanis_LupuslI

I usually run 7 impenetrable on my armor but with recent changes I'm considering going to running 4 impenetrable 3 well fitted ; thoughts???
OH yes and cp allocation for the green+red out of pure curiosity @Qbiken

IlCanis_LupuslI

If my magic is low, triple pots/engine guardian make sure it goes up quickly again. If that shouldn't be enough I'll just use a drain magic glyph on my infused offhand and but I doubt that will be needed.
The last 2 Magsorcs using cost poisons died anyway...
Its all about how you use your tripots properly (not chugging on cool down)
If done correctly you won't have any magics problems, I fact with my 2k Stam rec(fully buffed) and I literally only use my tripots when my magic is under 30%.
OH yes and making sure I don't take excessive amounts of damage also helps..

IlCanis_LupuslI

An other method I like using is that when my magica is low I dodge roll more and when my stamina pool is low I tend to heal more. That way I can use my stamina pool to take the pressure off my magica pool if needed.

Chrlynsch

Chrlynsch wrote: »

It's a marketing strategy..

-Nerf the werewolf until they're unusable in both PVE and PVP content.

-Everyone drops the werewolf skill line and enthusiasts leave the game, the amount of werewolfs dwindle to endangered species level

-Here comes the fun part, they then buff the werewolf to OP Broken level of both PVE and PVP. The demand for werewolf bites outnumbers the amount of available bites.

-Players reach into their wallets to buy the skill line. ZOS clears a 100k-200k increase to the bottom that quarter with only 2-3 years of neglecting the skill line and 40 hours of coding.

-Start the process all over again, we are about half way there.

@Aznox remember this gem from may? While they didn't necessarily release a broken version of the werewolf, they definitely increased the demand. I'm seeing an over increased volume in bite demands. I would have to assume crown store bites are a record high as well. Now where is my tin foil hat at?

Sharee

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

It's a marketing strategy..

-Nerf the werewolf until they're unusable in both PVE and PVP content.

-Everyone drops the werewolf skill line and enthusiasts leave the game, the amount of werewolfs dwindle to endangered species level

-Here comes the fun part, they then buff the werewolf to OP Broken level of both PVE and PVP. The demand for werewolf bites outnumbers the amount of available bites.

-Players reach into their wallets to buy the skill line. ZOS clears a 100k-200k increase to the bottom that quarter with only 2-3 years of neglecting the skill line and 40 hours of coding.

-Start the process all over again, we are about half way there.

@Aznox remember this gem from may? While they didn't necessarily release a broken version of the werewolf, they definitely increased the demand. I'm seeing an over increased volume in bite demands. I would have to assume crown store bites are a record high as well. Now where is my tin foil hat at?

Let's be fair there - the only way *not* to make demand for bites go up is to never release any WW expansion at all.

Aznox

I'm really not seeing that much more werewolf in PvP, and PvE players are patient enough to do the quest or find a generous wolf.

If you really want to know were ZoS has been making a huge amount of money recently (good thing for us all) look no further that the official authorization for Crown <-> Gold trade between players.

Honestly, i say the two most significant changes for werewolf for me were on-damage-dealt timer allowing PvE and fix of the heavy attack weave bug. The rest is mostly zero-sum.

I'm happy about that though.

Qbiken

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

I usually run 7 impenetrable on my armor but with recent changes I'm considering going to running 4 impenetrable 3 well fitted ; thoughts???
OH yes and cp allocation for the green+red out of pure curiosity @Qbiken

@Mangeli200194

Since Wolfhunter was released I´ve started to invest more CP into Thicked Skinned and Resistant. I see more and more people using DoT/Bleed builds and therefor need to adjust my build(s) accordingly, which. With a bit more health in your build you can afford to remove some points from Ironclad, since you´ll most likely will be able to heal up from a big burst.

In green tree I haven´t changed much to be honest. At first I thought that the changes to defile (reduced duration) would make me remove points from Befoul and/or even starting to use Claws of Life. Put after testing Claws of Life in PvP I still think it´s the worst morph/skill in the werewolf skilline.

IlCanis_LupuslI

I'm at 2.6k crit resistance but as an argonian and 72 poi ts under ironclad and 56 thick skinned I have no issues with bleeds/dots. What really messes me up are 3-4 people simultaneously Dbos me, 2 dawn s at the same time are my limit, but I don't know wh, but I they are hitting so hard sudde ly. I any advice vs that @Qbiken..?

Qbiken

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

I'm at 2.6k crit resistance but as an argonian and 72 poi ts under ironclad and 56 thick skinned I have no issues with bleeds/dots. What really messes me up are 3-4 people simultaneously Dbos me, 2 dawn s at the same time are my limit, but I don't know wh, but I they are hitting so hard sudde ly. I any advice vs that @Qbiken..?

Guard from alliance war skilline xD

Unless you run a 45-50k Health Werewolf, which are quite annoying because you can´t kill them in 1v1 (they can´t kill you either but still....) you don´t survive co-ordinated ultimate drops on you.

I feel werewolf got slightly weaker in solo-play this patch, but significantly stronger in group play (werewolf is extremely funny in small-scale). So get yourself a pocket healer or someone running guard on you, and you´re good to go

Guard is heavily overperforming and will most likely get some nerfs in upcoming patch(es), so might as well make good use of it while you can

IlCanis_LupuslI

Yeah cause I used to run solo occasionally(never had issues before) but I noticed it got harder this patch, so nowadays I never go out with less then 4 people in my group who I trust

Chrlynsch

@Mangeli200194 Swift is a surprisingly good counter against DBOS. One of my wolves uses 3x swift and rarely takes a DB due to the rapid movement.

Amdar_Godkiller

Aznox wrote: »

I'm really not seeing that much more werewolf in PvP, and PvE players are patient enough to do the quest or find a generous wolf.

If you really want to know were ZoS has been making a huge amount of money recently (good thing for us all) look no further that the official authorization for Crown <-> Gold trade between players.

Honestly, i say the two most significant changes for werewolf for me were on-damage-dealt timer allowing PvE and fix of the heavy attack weave bug. The rest is mostly zero-sum.

I'm happy about that though.

I've seen a lot more, and I'm in two WW guilds that are much more frequently active in campaigns currently.

Now it's definitely still not the PVP meta, but instead of going weeks without facing another wolf, it's more like 2-3 hours between encounters, though the quality of WW opponents on average seems slightly less than before.

Amdar_Godkiller

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

I'm at 2.6k crit resistance but as an argonian and 72 poi ts under ironclad and 56 thick skinned I have no issues with bleeds/dots. What really messes me up are 3-4 people simultaneously Dbos me, 2 dawn s at the same time are my limit, but I don't know wh, but I they are hitting so hard sudde ly. I any advice vs that @Qbiken..?

I would say you are still much lower in terms of crit resistance than you need to be. 3300 will cancel out a base crit from a sorc, DK, or warden with no points in precise strikes, and who is not using accelerate, the shadow mundus, or beast trap.

Against a Nightblade or templar that is using accelerate or beast trap, you'll be taking 30% more damage at least from crits still, and most players have at least 13 CP in precise strikes (6% more crit damage), so you will take the bonus fighter's guild damage multiplied by the crit bonus, which is sizable.

Even against other classes you'll take 10-30% more crit damage typically.

As a medium armor wearing wolf, I just don't believe there's ever a time when I can get by with less than 3000 crit resist, and even then, DBoS can be tough to overcome when you are outnumbered.

Rule of thumb is wear all impen, put 50 CP in resistant, put 56 CP at least into block cost reduction, and at least 11 CP into Blessed. That gets you just past 3K crit resistance, gives you the equivalent of 5 sturdy in terms of block cost reduction, buffs your heal, and guarantees that when you block (AKA "turtle"), your WW heal will crit (Vengeance CP passive). It also saves you potentially as much as 1400 stamina per second while blocking.

For everything else, there's Troll King.

Amdar_Godkiller

Chrlynsch wrote: »

@Mangeli200194 Swift is a surprisingly good counter against DBOS. One of my wolves uses 3x swift and rarely takes a DB due to the rapid movement.

I definitely want to try out a 3 swift jailbreaker build using expedition pots at some point so I can run a no-sprint speed-capped WW.

IlCanis_LupuslI

I have swift on but in pvp i usually try killing things not kiting as a ww. And i dont get killed often by it,(maby 2-3x per month) it just pisses me off as i usually dont die so quickly to anything @Chrlynsch

Koolio

So we pretty much just switched Pelinial for Green Pact

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

I'm at 2.6k crit resistance but as an argonian and 72 poi ts under ironclad and 56 thick skinned I have no issues with bleeds/dots. What really messes me up are 3-4 people simultaneously Dbos me, 2 dawn s at the same time are my limit, but I don't know wh, but I they are hitting so hard sudde ly. I any advice vs that @Qbiken..?

I would say you are still much lower in terms of crit resistance than you need to be. 3300 will cancel out a base crit from a sorc, DK, or warden with no points in precise strikes, and who is not using accelerate, the shadow mundus, or beast trap.

Against a Nightblade or templar that is using accelerate or beast trap, you'll be taking 30% more damage at least from crits still, and most players have at least 13 CP in precise strikes (6% more crit damage), so you will take the bonus fighter's guild damage multiplied by the crit bonus, which is sizable.

Even against other classes you'll take 10-30% more crit damage typically.

As a medium armor wearing wolf, I just don't believe there's ever a time when I can get by with less than 3000 crit resist, and even then, DBoS can be tough to overcome when you are outnumbered.

Rule of thumb is wear all impen, put 50 CP in resistant, put 56 CP at least into block cost reduction, and at least 11 CP into Blessed. That gets you just past 3K crit resistance, gives you the equivalent of 5 sturdy in terms of block cost reduction, buffs your heal, and guarantees that when you block (AKA "turtle"), your WW heal will crit (Vengeance CP passive). It also saves you potentially as much as 1400 stamina per second while blocking.

For everything else, there's Troll King.

i would suggest putting above 30 points into blessed for the extra Crit for the heal. Just my 2 cents

IlCanis_LupuslI

I think you guys are getting a wrong picture here.
Its litereally only 3-4 stacked dbos that kill me(in 90% of the cases) , yyesterday i had 5 dks(& 1 pocket healer) leaping my furry ass unsucessfully may i ad. It took them a full 15 min to kill (and at least 5 ulti dumps) me only to get wiped in round 2 out as soon as i had a friend set up siege on my position.
Its only dbos stacked that gives me problems while outnumbered with other ults im completely fine.
im in heavy (5x impreg/2x welfitted), 34k resistances, 33k health (argonian).
Its a bit weird
And before someone puts it in, no i dont have any issues killing stuff when i want to...

Thraben

Qbiken wrote: »

I feel werewolf got slightly weaker in solo-play this patch, but significantly stronger in group play (werewolf is extremely funny in small-scale). So get yourself a pocket healer or someone running guard on you, and you´re good to go

Guard is heavily overperforming and will most likely get some nerfs in upcoming patch(es), so might as well make good use of it while you can

Everyone can be good with a pocket healer or guard on oneself. The truth is that you can´t justify the Werewolf form when you could have someone with 2-3 Dawnbreakers, TrollKing vigor, and even a retreating manoevre instead any longer.

Outside of forced melee encounters (like Tower Farms, Battlegrounds) you just can´t keep up the Werewolf form as long as in the past, which reduces the WW´s viability.

We are basically back to the point when WW is the inofficial class ulti of some StamDKs. It didn´t help that after 5 years, StamSorcs can no longer equip 3 different Ultis (Negate, Overload, WW).


But what I really wanted to know:

How can you extend your Werewolf timer overland in typical ranged combat situations? The obvious answer is Swarm Mother, but the loss of TrollKing/ Bloodspawn/Earthgore hits a WW particularly hard.

Amdar_Godkiller

Koolio wrote: »

So we pretty much just switched Pelinial for Green Pact

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

I'm at 2.6k crit resistance but as an argonian and 72 poi ts under ironclad and 56 thick skinned I have no issues with bleeds/dots. What really messes me up are 3-4 people simultaneously Dbos me, 2 dawn s at the same time are my limit, but I don't know wh, but I they are hitting so hard sudde ly. I any advice vs that @Qbiken..?

I would say you are still much lower in terms of crit resistance than you need to be. 3300 will cancel out a base crit from a sorc, DK, or warden with no points in precise strikes, and who is not using accelerate, the shadow mundus, or beast trap.

Against a Nightblade or templar that is using accelerate or beast trap, you'll be taking 30% more damage at least from crits still, and most players have at least 13 CP in precise strikes (6% more crit damage), so you will take the bonus fighter's guild damage multiplied by the crit bonus, which is sizable.

Even against other classes you'll take 10-30% more crit damage typically.

As a medium armor wearing wolf, I just don't believe there's ever a time when I can get by with less than 3000 crit resist, and even then, DBoS can be tough to overcome when you are outnumbered.

Rule of thumb is wear all impen, put 50 CP in resistant, put 56 CP at least into block cost reduction, and at least 11 CP into Blessed. That gets you just past 3K crit resistance, gives you the equivalent of 5 sturdy in terms of block cost reduction, buffs your heal, and guarantees that when you block (AKA "turtle"), your WW heal will crit (Vengeance CP passive). It also saves you potentially as much as 1400 stamina per second while blocking.

For everything else, there's Troll King.

i would suggest putting above 30 points into blessed for the extra Crit for the heal. Just my 2 cents

Sometimes I do, but the vengeance passive is really so much more useful. It allows me to crit heal with absolute garbage spell critical. The next best thing is obviously to avoid having garbage spell critical, but it requires more of an investment.

Chrlynsch

Heads up Savage Strength Werewolf passive does not work correctly (resistance). It shows on character sheet but doesnt provide extra mitigation.

Amdar_Godkiller

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Heads up Savage Werewolf passive does not work correctly (resistance). It shows on character sheet but doesnt provide extra mitigation.

In what way? The guildmaster of one of my WW guilds was complaining about not being as tanky as he was last patch in wolf form today. Is that what is going on: the 10K resistance isn't applying?

Chrlynsch

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Heads up Savage Werewolf passive does not work correctly (resistance). It shows on character sheet but doesnt provide extra mitigation.

In what way? The guildmaster of one of my WW guilds was complaining about not being as tanky as he was last patch in wolf form today. Is that what is going on: the 10K resistance isn't applying?

Correct. When you transform you see the 10k resistances apply to your character sheet. But it provides no damage mitigation. I've tested against players and NPCs.

Amdar_Godkiller

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Heads up Savage Werewolf passive does not work correctly (resistance). It shows on character sheet but doesnt provide extra mitigation.

In what way? The guildmaster of one of my WW guilds was complaining about not being as tanky as he was last patch in wolf form today. Is that what is going on: the 10K resistance isn't applying?

Correct. When you transform you see the 10k resistances apply to your character sheet. But it provides no damage mitigation. I've tested against players and NPCs.

Damn. I'll let him know he was right. Thanks for the heads up. It seemed like Lethal Arrow damage was pretty high since the update, but I"ve been mostly playing with the stamplar that I just leveled instead of my werewarden, since that build was very much tied to my pelinals setup.