PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

MaximusDecimus · January 2018

I think my ultimate problem with the increased block cost is it once again goes in the opposite direction of what ESO is supposed to be. Coming up with creative builds to function in a dungeon or trial situation. Now sure this change encourages players to create a new meta, but by reducing the number of choices we have. It is now near mandatory to heavy attack if we want to run any vaguely support style set. Say we want to run a non-DK tank with heavy support for group DPS and healing? Good luck. Non-DK tanks were only barely viable last patch. They want players to be creative but stifle creativity. So PvP has a block problem? Increase block cost in PvP by a flat amount, a mechanic that already exsits in the game, i.e. Defensive Posture and its morphs.

Not only the block cost increase going to play havoc, so is the increased synergy cooldown. Now there is reduced resource returns from the undaunted passive and reduced return for Alkosh. Half the sets that tanks had to choose from are trash now. My favorite part of tanking has always been the ability to be creative with my builds and now its almost gone after several nerfs to overall tanking. Again maybe give a separate synergy cooldown for PvP and PvE.

I really think this patch needs a hard rewrite of tanking to encourage group flexibility instead of stifling it.

Also as a side note, we need more cool tanking sets. The last sets of heavy armor that dropped have been lackluster for nearly all applications. MORE OPTIONS=MORE CREATIVITY.

code65536 · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

I am saying through ESO's history there have been a lot Chicken Little pronouncements how tanking is dead, when only the means have changed.

I have no doubt that I'll be fine after this nerf.

I know that I'll be fine because I have not min-maxed my block cost this patch, so the nerf doesn't hit me nearly as hard as it would hit others. I never bothered refarming/recrafting my gear to all-Sturdy after the Morrowind nerfs, so my current block costs sit around 300. If I min-maxed block costs next patch by trait-changing all my gear to Sturdy and putting more CP into block cost reduction than I have now, then I'll be seeing something like a 10-20% increase in my costs next patch, which is perfectly manageable.

Tanking won't go away, I'll adapt, whatever.

I'd hate to be someone who's looking to start tanking. Beginners won't have the CP. They won't experience in the role or in the content and they'll make mistakes that will cost them resources to correct. They won't have ideal gear nor the crystals to trait-change that gear.
Eating away at the margins like this and "trimming the fat" so to speak just promotes min-maxing and optimization. I didn't min-max the last three patches (mostly out of laziness) because there were enough margins that an less-than-ideal setup would still get the job done. Those margins are disappearing. Again, this makes it harder for newer tanks who didn't have those margins to start with.
Tanking diversity has taken a hit with every nerf. No-stam-regen really shoehorned everything to the DK because they had the best tools to manage stamina without regen. Whatever happened to the other classes? I started tanking in ESO in 2015 on a Nightblade. I haven't tanked on a Nightblade in well over a year now. Each nerf just tightens the screws even more. With my non-min-maxed setup last patch, I can definitely feel the difference between tanking on my dedicated tank (Argonian) and tanking on my magDK (Dunmer) when wearing the exact same gear, using the same CP, etc. Now that there are smaller margins, things like race will start to matter more, too. Diversity? Not in tanking!

Whether or not we can adapt (of course we can) is not the same question as whether or not these changes are good for the long-term health of the role. It raises the bar for entry and further stifles diversity in a role that had already been straightjacketed by previous rounds of nerfs.

OutLaw_Nynx · January 2018

I don’t tank. I never will.

All of these changes should of been put into battle spirit. Not screwing over the entire pve community. I love to do both.

potirondb16_ESO · January 2018

I wonder what was more powerfull... the enchant glyph, the gear traits or the cp placement... I mean it with the current patch it seems the Glyph were consider to be the best defensive move so they got nerf, but weren't they also the worst offensive move ? I mean it. If your actual permablocking pvp tank is using block glyph at the moment he is loosing on a lot more dps that if he use weapon damage glyph which means that he is less dangerous while using glyph that if he doesn't.

The two current issue with the block system are the following :

- Permablocking pvp tank
- Healer avoiding group for 4-man content

The change to the block system helps with the second one but will only make the first one more dangerous as they will now have huge incentive to go for damage glyph instead. I do admit that there ain't good option for stopping both problem. The line we go in is in my opinion not the right one.

For PVE I do wonder :
- How many different jewellery do Tank will keep in reserve to adapt... I mean Tank already have a huge inventory dedicated to gear changing in order for them to adapt their playstyle so how is it going to play out I wonder ? Will I have stam reduce cost for heavy add fight, and magicka reduce cost for heavy damage fight ? I mean I don't think any tank wants to carry around more stuff in his inventory to adapt to the fight,
- How many tank will be able to figure out the optimal heavy attack timing when fighting multiple boss or handling many enemies ? Does this mean that all tank are going to follow an even more specific meta for resource managing purpose ?

For PVP I do wonder :
- How much more dangerous will permablocking tank be ? Will they have the weapon damage enchant systematically now ? does this mean I won't be able to kill them and they will be able to do so ?
- How much more difficult will it be to deal with glass canon (because they can now block more efficiently)

In order to adapt the game to both issue, I do feel like there are some scenario that need to be consider but first :

Option number 1

Straighten the block cost CP progression obligating the tank to use more CP into block in order to get the same reward... that could have lower the option of the permablocking team. Same would probably would be good for healing debuff and resource increase cost. Because perhaps having the tank adjusting CP before trial could be a thing now, I mean like literally needing to.

Option number 2

Put a minimum cap out of block cost, that way tank can figure out for themselves when they have reach the minimum inside the equation but keep the formula as it is. I don't want stronger pvp tank, and I don't want more gear carrying tank. I know that a lot of us are now experiencing the content without an healer, I also know that there are a few case where the tank struggle with resource but I will see so many group hating each other in the future if tank start having double block cost ... And to be honest it is already so hard to find a good pve tank ! I mean like HELL HARD ! Most of them struggle with three adds and start wondering about the end of the world when they have the obligation to take add while fighting a boss...

__

Overall, I understand how this can fit with previous change to luminous shard, and siphoning attacks and how it can help implement new opportunity to unfit permablocking class and how the cost reduction might become an opportunity rather then an issue in pve at least for class diversification. So even if I don't agree with the fact that block cost is increase and that I'll be oblige to switch to fully sturdy gear for the most part, I do understand where this change is going. But can I suggest to shorter the time it takes to do an heavy attack as a tank ? frost and s&b ? tbh I don't see the meta changing as some player would want 3 tanks to be optimal in all the content but Hey, will see

Bowser · January 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

Bowser wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Bowser wrote: »

autumnsongbird wrote: »

Calling it now. The new meta will be no block builds. Or minimal block builds. God mode self heals, uber high health. God like resistances.

Plays straight to wardens. They are built for this. They can get away with a lot. DK too but I think warden with very fast heal ult regen can prob outlast it.

Also there goes smart playing. Smart blocking. Just don't bother except for the really big hits.

New tank meta rotation:

heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack

Lol I see 2 problems with this. You will get rekt by one shots and also I dont think you will build a leap that quickly. Apart from that why not?

Nah, just leap before the big hits you'll be fine.

Nice! I would expect nothing less from the tank who executed HM rakkhat before it was cool.

Seriously though, I am really annoyed with the formula change. Its difficult enough already to play how I want in a completely cookie-cutter community, especially after the changes in Morrowind.

usmcjdking · January 2018

Bowser wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Bowser wrote: »

autumnsongbird wrote: »

Calling it now. The new meta will be no block builds. Or minimal block builds. God mode self heals, uber high health. God like resistances.

Plays straight to wardens. They are built for this. They can get away with a lot. DK too but I think warden with very fast heal ult regen can prob outlast it.

Also there goes smart playing. Smart blocking. Just don't bother except for the really big hits.

New tank meta rotation:

heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack

Lol I see 2 problems with this. You will get rekt by one shots and also I dont think you will build a leap that quickly. Apart from that why not?

Nah, just leap before the big hits you'll be fine.

This is a quality [snip]. With evidence and pictures and everything.

Cannot awesome this enough.

[Edited to remove profanity]

rustic_potato · January 2018

Bowser wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Bowser wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Bowser wrote: »

autumnsongbird wrote: »

Calling it now. The new meta will be no block builds. Or minimal block builds. God mode self heals, uber high health. God like resistances.

Plays straight to wardens. They are built for this. They can get away with a lot. DK too but I think warden with very fast heal ult regen can prob outlast it.

Also there goes smart playing. Smart blocking. Just don't bother except for the really big hits.

New tank meta rotation:

heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack dragon leap heavy attack bone shield heavy attack igneous shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack bone shield heavy attack

Lol I see 2 problems with this. You will get rekt by one shots and also I dont think you will build a leap that quickly. Apart from that why not?

Nah, just leap before the big hits you'll be fine.

Nice! I would expect nothing less from the tank who executed HM rakkhat before it was cool.

Seriously though, I am really annoyed with the formula change. Its difficult enough already to play how I want in a completely cookie-cutter community, especially after the changes in Morrowind.

I remember a similar thread full of complaints made when bracing was removed from the HA skill tree. ZOS kinda cornered itself with the balance changes over the past year. I posted this earlier.

rustic_potato wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

If block only stops secondary effects like stun, snares, knockbacks and oneshots instead of the insane damage mitigation it would solve the problem. That promotes "you block only when you need to" mindset and keep tanking interesting.

This would be decent for PvP but destroy PvE . There are boss attacks that can deal 20k+ damage even while blocking . Here is an example , Assembly General . The famous punch . Can't dodge it , have to block . If you don't block , guaranteed death ^^

@Liofa I agree. The mitigation has to be built into tanking in another way. There are multiple possibilities
Reduce the damage done by bosses.
Add more mitigation to the sword and board skill line.
The minor and major aegis effects could be reworked to add mitigation without disrupting PVP.
A combination of this can be done to achieve the result.

Also your example is one of the attacks that should be blocked similar to the warrior swipes, rakkhat gun and other boss heavy attacks. By removing damage mitigation from blocking we remove the need to block for every attack.

ZOS wants tanks to tactically block. Removing damage mitigation from block is the only way to achieve that without discouraging the prospect of tanking.

If ZOS wants blocks to be tactical there has to be a reason to not block for regular attacks.

Joy_Division · January 2018

code65536 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I am saying through ESO's history there have been a lot Chicken Little pronouncements how tanking is dead, when only the means have changed.

I have no doubt that I'll be fine after this nerf.

I know that I'll be fine because I have not min-maxed my block cost this patch, so the nerf doesn't hit me nearly as hard as it would hit others. I never bothered refarming/recrafting my gear to all-Sturdy after the Morrowind nerfs, so my current block costs sit around 300. If I min-maxed block costs next patch by trait-changing all my gear to Sturdy and putting more CP into block cost reduction than I have now, then I'll be seeing something like a 10-20% increase in my costs next patch, which is perfectly manageable.

Tanking won't go away, I'll adapt, whatever.
I'd hate to be someone who's looking to start tanking. Beginners won't have the CP. They won't experience in the role or in the content and they'll make mistakes that will cost them resources to correct. They won't have ideal gear nor the crystals to trait-change that gear.

Eating away at the margins like this and "trimming the fat" so to speak just promotes min-maxing and optimization. I didn't min-max the last three patches (mostly out of laziness) because there were enough margins that an less-than-ideal setup would still get the job done. Those margins are disappearing. Again, this makes it harder for newer tanks who didn't have those margins to start with.

Tanking diversity has taken a hit with every nerf. No-stam-regen really shoehorned everything to the DK because they had the best tools to manage stamina without regen. Whatever happened to the other classes? I started tanking in ESO in 2015 on a Nightblade. I haven't tanked on a Nightblade in well over a year now. Each nerf just tightens the screws even more. With my non-min-maxed setup last patch, I can definitely feel the difference between tanking on my dedicated tank (Argonian) and tanking on my magDK (Dunmer) when wearing the exact same gear, using the same CP, etc. Now that there are smaller margins, things like race will start to matter more, too. Diversity? Not in tanking!

Whether or not we can adapt (of course we can) is not the same question as whether or not these changes are good for the long-term health of the role. It raises the bar for entry and further stifles diversity in a role that had already been straightjacketed by previous rounds of nerfs.

For Vet Hardmode Trials, maybe. Maybe.

But for the vast majority of the game, I can grab my templar healer or my NB DPS and tank just about everything without even changing my CPs, let alone use a block-cost reduction. And this isn't even just Spindleclutch I. Even what is supposed to be advanced content like DragonStar Arena or even some of the DLC dungeons like Mazzatun or Cradle. Players who are starting out tanking doing non hard mode Trials aren't going to be drastically affected by these changes and that's probably what ZoS cares about.

If I were planning on doing Hard Mode HoF, I would not bring my Nord PvP templar to DPS as much as I like playing it. The spec is simply not suitable. It requires a more min maxed approach, the margins are less as you say. I do agree that it's dumb that Dunmer and Nightblades are probably outside those boundaries, but I think the solution to that is not to enable anyone to equip a jewelry enchant that far out-performs other options and be able to perma-block. Instead ZoS should reexamine it's many past nerfs that it has levied against everyone that had shoehorned us into cookie-cutter builds in the first place.

A number of people are basically "I want to still perma-block, please unnerf us so we can still do that" and I don't totally blame ZoS if they are unresponsive to that (though I do blame Zos for much more, but that's another story).

Mister_DMC · January 2018

@Liofa Thanks so much, exactly what I was looking for!

usmcjdking · January 2018

@Joy_Division

I agree with code based on the objectiveness of his opinion and I gladly second his opinion on tanking.

They can nerf permablocking all they want IMO. But you have to fit the gameplay to the game's direction. If you keep putting forth bosses that can one shot even well built tanks at random points with little to no telegraph, warning and/or rhythm the gameplay doesn't match the game direction.

A significant amount of bosses demand permablocking. Those fights need to be reworked to support non-permablocking if this is the verifiable direction they want to take tanks. And it is verifiable - (blocking nerfed lots over the years).

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

We have to distinguish 2 scenarios here: default single-target boss fights and multi-add tanking. On single-target fights, sustain shouldn't be an issue. Most of the bosses do their heavy attacks once every 2-4 seconds and leave enough room to throw in heavy attacks in between and debuff the boss. Sure, 30 sec CD on synergies is a factor which reduces the overall sustain, though I don't think that this will make tanking impossible, just a bit more challenging. You also don't need to be argonian or DK in general, though especially argonian DKs will probably be the easiest to sustain - especially if not familiar with tanking. The real change though comes on multi-add fights as they will deplete your stamina quickly if perma-blocking. CC control will thus get more important again. Gladly, not many trial-encounters deal with multiple mobs to tank at once.

A random group and I attempted the final boss of fang lair on vet hm yesterday evening and it was partly ridiculous how quickly these two bugs that the boss spawned next to you could deplete your stamina and make you a one-hit to the bosses scarab attack. I wasn't familiar with the tank-changes back than though this could explain it at least. Though the adds seem to drain stamina even without blocking and especially slowing you permanently which makes tanking this boss just not fun at all (though vet normal is actually quite well balanced). Even as an Argonian DK I couldn't keep up with the resources needed. Guess this fight will be fun for any other tanking class. I have to admit though, that this was just a random group without VoIP tool and not an optimal strategy which lets room for quite some more improvements.

Sure, Alkosh will probably lose its charme in trials, though still you need to use a synergy every 10 seconds (for 3 in total) to keep it up all the time, usually the timing though of trigger one of the synergies is the limiting part of it. Most, especially stamina based, DDs don't need Alkosh anymore which also lead to its replacement by Torugs Pact, which is way easier to upkeep, especially with infused weapons. This will still be a viable set for trial-tanking, for dungeon-tanking we have to see if, especially due to frequent multi-mob situations, sustain-sets are preferable, which I think might be the case as mobs here in general do not life long enough to justify the debuffing overhead.

I have tanked and beaten every HM boss (except for vAS+2; though will so probably starting next week or the week after, cleared vAS +1 in both constelations multiple times so far) and usually staying alive isn't an issue in general, also resource managment is just a matter of confidence and knowledge about the encounters as you know when you can replenish your resources by heavy attacking and when special care needs to be put onto your resource management. The only situation that kills a non-permablocking tank here are rare insta-hits that hit you before the animation on the mob actually starts (I call them perfectly animation canceled ^^), this somethimes happens in vAS for some unknown reason and usually right after his lightning-kite stuff. Trying to taunt everything in multi-mob situations and using all of your skills constantly will just deplete your resources quickly. There is just a typical, but understandable, hystery on the upcoming changes which for sure will affect the overall gameplay. Though instead of switching roles and crying on the changes, we should learn to adept and improve our gameplay.

What I'd like to see though is a dmg increase for tanks as compensation for their sustain-loss. It feels just not right to see damage dealers break 70k dps barriers and seeing my 3-4k dps in comparison. I'm aware that my role is not to deal damage but enable DDs to do their "job", though the gap is just way to large. If outside a dungeon I need like 30-40 seconds for some unimportant trash mob, while a DD kills it with one to two hits and also doesn't have an issue at surviving. Well, you can switch to DD gear than you might state, though I already have way to many sets in my inventory which is thus fully packed. This leads to a situation where I mainly play the tank in trials or dungeon as outside of these it is just a pain in the ***, though sadly I have been into random-dungeon-finder groups where I dealt almost 50% of the groups damage (with 4k dps -.-).

We've been adapting for ages.

Now, the only thing we'll be adapting for is PVP's latest temper tantrum.

I repeat: If it does not stop, PVE tanking will eventually hit a point where our ability to manage resources simply will not be able to keep up with the content. People like you who would like the heard to calm down wish ultimately harm upon this game, through indirect means.

Apathy is death. Besides. If we're going to get damage anyway as a result, why not just abolish tanking as an institution at that point? If we're all DPS anyway, why not stop pretending?

Either hold to the trinity, or remove the trinity. ZOS's dilly-dallying on that front hasn't helped the game either.

Every time block cost gets increased, threads like this one appear.

And every time tanks managed to figure out how to perma-block, in both PvE and PvP.

For all the talk about PvE and PvP, ZoS has been pretty consistent that they don't want tanks in PvE duct-taping the block key during dungeons and trial.

I'm not saying what ZoS did was right or will work, I am saying through ESO's history there have been a lot Chicken Little pronouncements how tanking is dead, when only the means have changed.

So now, this 5th time the cry of "Uncle" is the god's honest truth and ZoS totally boned tanks. OK, you may believe that, but there is a reason why other people, including ZoS, maybe a bit skeptical.

Does whole idea of enjoyable tanking require that you have to 100% hold down the right mouse button?

If you've seen anything I've posted on tanking, you'll know that I hate how tanking is right now @Joy_Division and you'll know that I long for a setup like say, a blood death knight from WoW. You'll know that I go out of my way to make templar tank builds based on healing. And you'll know one of the major reasons I hated morrowind, was because the sustain changes and class changes to Templar made that harder to the point of, the build is patheticly weak now.

You'll know that I've advocated tallent tree's and other customization options to make that style of play viable. What you might not know, is that I originally played Saptank pre imperial city. And almost completed the original raids on the original difficulty, we got to I think earth atro and got creamed due to lack of DPS. So believe me. I'd like nothing more than for tanking to evolve.

But at a raid level, the damage coming in is too big to be healed, and until that design changes, permablock is how it works at a raid level. So preserving how it works until we get changes to support other styles of play is the only course of action we really have. Believe me. I would give my left leg, to have a engaging form of tanking that is competative at the highest level.

And that's a gross overgeneralization. Did we cry it would break tanking when Bracing was released? No. We argued we didn't want Wrath and it wasn't condusive to PVE. We argued the block regen changes were not conducive to fun gameplay.

And right now, aside from me who postulates that -eventually- this will hit a point where it erodes the roll (And I think that will take a few more patche), the predominant concern is the fact this will drive further people attempting to tank away from the roll in a game where people are allready making threads about the lack of tanks. The endgame community is dwindling. It does not need kneecapped. (And before you leap to that defense, compared to what it was, it's dwindling.)

Joy, I love you, and you make some good points most of the time, but if you cant be bothered to pay attention then cobble some strawman from public perception instead of fact, you may as well not be here. This is seriously beneath you.

TLDR: I'm not arguing that, I'd like for tanking to evolve beyond what it is, but quite frankly the content needs to change to support that and if it wont, and the devs wont change it....rocking the boat is worth nothing.

rustic_potato · January 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

We have to distinguish 2 scenarios here: default single-target boss fights and multi-add tanking. On single-target fights, sustain shouldn't be an issue. Most of the bosses do their heavy attacks once every 2-4 seconds and leave enough room to throw in heavy attacks in between and debuff the boss. Sure, 30 sec CD on synergies is a factor which reduces the overall sustain, though I don't think that this will make tanking impossible, just a bit more challenging. You also don't need to be argonian or DK in general, though especially argonian DKs will probably be the easiest to sustain - especially if not familiar with tanking. The real change though comes on multi-add fights as they will deplete your stamina quickly if perma-blocking. CC control will thus get more important again. Gladly, not many trial-encounters deal with multiple mobs to tank at once.

A random group and I attempted the final boss of fang lair on vet hm yesterday evening and it was partly ridiculous how quickly these two bugs that the boss spawned next to you could deplete your stamina and make you a one-hit to the bosses scarab attack. I wasn't familiar with the tank-changes back than though this could explain it at least. Though the adds seem to drain stamina even without blocking and especially slowing you permanently which makes tanking this boss just not fun at all (though vet normal is actually quite well balanced). Even as an Argonian DK I couldn't keep up with the resources needed. Guess this fight will be fun for any other tanking class. I have to admit though, that this was just a random group without VoIP tool and not an optimal strategy which lets room for quite some more improvements.

Sure, Alkosh will probably lose its charme in trials, though still you need to use a synergy every 10 seconds (for 3 in total) to keep it up all the time, usually the timing though of trigger one of the synergies is the limiting part of it. Most, especially stamina based, DDs don't need Alkosh anymore which also lead to its replacement by Torugs Pact, which is way easier to upkeep, especially with infused weapons. This will still be a viable set for trial-tanking, for dungeon-tanking we have to see if, especially due to frequent multi-mob situations, sustain-sets are preferable, which I think might be the case as mobs here in general do not life long enough to justify the debuffing overhead.

I have tanked and beaten every HM boss (except for vAS+2; though will so probably starting next week or the week after, cleared vAS +1 in both constelations multiple times so far) and usually staying alive isn't an issue in general, also resource managment is just a matter of confidence and knowledge about the encounters as you know when you can replenish your resources by heavy attacking and when special care needs to be put onto your resource management. The only situation that kills a non-permablocking tank here are rare insta-hits that hit you before the animation on the mob actually starts (I call them perfectly animation canceled ^^), this somethimes happens in vAS for some unknown reason and usually right after his lightning-kite stuff. Trying to taunt everything in multi-mob situations and using all of your skills constantly will just deplete your resources quickly. There is just a typical, but understandable, hystery on the upcoming changes which for sure will affect the overall gameplay. Though instead of switching roles and crying on the changes, we should learn to adept and improve our gameplay.

What I'd like to see though is a dmg increase for tanks as compensation for their sustain-loss. It feels just not right to see damage dealers break 70k dps barriers and seeing my 3-4k dps in comparison. I'm aware that my role is not to deal damage but enable DDs to do their "job", though the gap is just way to large. If outside a dungeon I need like 30-40 seconds for some unimportant trash mob, while a DD kills it with one to two hits and also doesn't have an issue at surviving. Well, you can switch to DD gear than you might state, though I already have way to many sets in my inventory which is thus fully packed. This leads to a situation where I mainly play the tank in trials or dungeon as outside of these it is just a pain in the ***, though sadly I have been into random-dungeon-finder groups where I dealt almost 50% of the groups damage (with 4k dps -.-).

We've been adapting for ages.

Now, the only thing we'll be adapting for is PVP's latest temper tantrum.

I repeat: If it does not stop, PVE tanking will eventually hit a point where our ability to manage resources simply will not be able to keep up with the content. People like you who would like the heard to calm down wish ultimately harm upon this game, through indirect means.

Apathy is death. Besides. If we're going to get damage anyway as a result, why not just abolish tanking as an institution at that point? If we're all DPS anyway, why not stop pretending?

Either hold to the trinity, or remove the trinity. ZOS's dilly-dallying on that front hasn't helped the game either.

Every time block cost gets increased, threads like this one appear.

And every time tanks managed to figure out how to perma-block, in both PvE and PvP.

For all the talk about PvE and PvP, ZoS has been pretty consistent that they don't want tanks in PvE duct-taping the block key during dungeons and trial.

I'm not saying what ZoS did was right or will work, I am saying through ESO's history there have been a lot Chicken Little pronouncements how tanking is dead, when only the means have changed.

So now, this 5th time the cry of "Uncle" is the god's honest truth and ZoS totally boned tanks. OK, you may believe that, but there is a reason why other people, including ZoS, maybe a bit skeptical.

Does whole idea of enjoyable tanking require that you have to 100% hold down the right mouse button?

If you've seen anything I've posted on tanking, you'll know that I hate how tanking is right now @Joy_Division and you'll know that I long for a setup like say, a blood death knight from WoW. You'll know that I go out of my way to make templar tank builds based on healing. And you'll know one of the major reasons I hated morrowind, was because the sustain changes and class changes to Templar made that harder to the point of, the build is patheticly weak now.

You'll know that I've advocated tallent tree's and other customization options to make that style of play viable. What you might not know, is that I originally played Saptank pre imperial city. And almost completed the original raids on the original difficulty, we got to I think earth atro and got creamed due to lack of DPS. So believe me. I'd like nothing more than for tanking to evolve.

But at a raid level, the damage coming in is too big to be healed, and until that design changes, permablock is how it works at a raid level. So preserving how it works until we get changes to support other styles of play is the only course of action we really have. Believe me. I would give my left leg, to have a engaging form of tanking that is competative at the highest level.

And that's a gross overgeneralization. Did we cry it would break tanking when Bracing was released? No. We argued we didn't want Wrath and it wasn't condusive to PVE. We argued the block regen changes were not conducive to fun gameplay.

And right now, aside from me who postulates that -eventually- this will hit a point where it erodes the roll (And I think that will take a few more patche), the predominant concern is the fact this will drive further people attempting to tank away from the roll in a game where people are allready making threads about the lack of tanks. The endgame community is dwindling. It does not need kneecapped. (And before you leap to that defense, compared to what it was, it's dwindling.)

Joy, I love you, and you make some good points most of the time, but if you cant be bothered to pay attention then cobble a scarecrow from public perception instead of fact, you may as well not be here.

TLDR: I'm not arguing that, I'd like for tanking to evolve beyond what it is, but quite frankly the content needs to change to support that and if it wont, and the devs wont change it....rocking the boat is worth nothing.

They will change content only when people no longer run said content. As long as players keep adapting and adjusting to the nerfs there is no reason for ZOS to change the base game. It just means that they see that their method is working. HA tanking is done on live and there is no reason for it to not work when the patch goes live.

ccfeeling · January 2018

It does a matter to us , NB tanks .
We are not the meta in the game and we don't have the god mode resource management tools likes you guys DK and Warden
Every minor changes are so important .
Tactical blocking , if it could run easily , it won't be a problem , tanking is a easy job...

I am still thinking how to tank the VAA axes , VHRC final , BF HM final with coming patch by tactical blocking mode .

Shield , HA ?

Morgul667 · January 2018

Make battle spirit bonus doubles the blocking cost.

That would fit fine with the half damage and healing policy (double blocking cost or half the blocking cost reduction, same or worst)

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

We have to distinguish 2 scenarios here: default single-target boss fights and multi-add tanking. On single-target fights, sustain shouldn't be an issue. Most of the bosses do their heavy attacks once every 2-4 seconds and leave enough room to throw in heavy attacks in between and debuff the boss. Sure, 30 sec CD on synergies is a factor which reduces the overall sustain, though I don't think that this will make tanking impossible, just a bit more challenging. You also don't need to be argonian or DK in general, though especially argonian DKs will probably be the easiest to sustain - especially if not familiar with tanking. The real change though comes on multi-add fights as they will deplete your stamina quickly if perma-blocking. CC control will thus get more important again. Gladly, not many trial-encounters deal with multiple mobs to tank at once.

A random group and I attempted the final boss of fang lair on vet hm yesterday evening and it was partly ridiculous how quickly these two bugs that the boss spawned next to you could deplete your stamina and make you a one-hit to the bosses scarab attack. I wasn't familiar with the tank-changes back than though this could explain it at least. Though the adds seem to drain stamina even without blocking and especially slowing you permanently which makes tanking this boss just not fun at all (though vet normal is actually quite well balanced). Even as an Argonian DK I couldn't keep up with the resources needed. Guess this fight will be fun for any other tanking class. I have to admit though, that this was just a random group without VoIP tool and not an optimal strategy which lets room for quite some more improvements.

Sure, Alkosh will probably lose its charme in trials, though still you need to use a synergy every 10 seconds (for 3 in total) to keep it up all the time, usually the timing though of trigger one of the synergies is the limiting part of it. Most, especially stamina based, DDs don't need Alkosh anymore which also lead to its replacement by Torugs Pact, which is way easier to upkeep, especially with infused weapons. This will still be a viable set for trial-tanking, for dungeon-tanking we have to see if, especially due to frequent multi-mob situations, sustain-sets are preferable, which I think might be the case as mobs here in general do not life long enough to justify the debuffing overhead.

I have tanked and beaten every HM boss (except for vAS+2; though will so probably starting next week or the week after, cleared vAS +1 in both constelations multiple times so far) and usually staying alive isn't an issue in general, also resource managment is just a matter of confidence and knowledge about the encounters as you know when you can replenish your resources by heavy attacking and when special care needs to be put onto your resource management. The only situation that kills a non-permablocking tank here are rare insta-hits that hit you before the animation on the mob actually starts (I call them perfectly animation canceled ^^), this somethimes happens in vAS for some unknown reason and usually right after his lightning-kite stuff. Trying to taunt everything in multi-mob situations and using all of your skills constantly will just deplete your resources quickly. There is just a typical, but understandable, hystery on the upcoming changes which for sure will affect the overall gameplay. Though instead of switching roles and crying on the changes, we should learn to adept and improve our gameplay.

What I'd like to see though is a dmg increase for tanks as compensation for their sustain-loss. It feels just not right to see damage dealers break 70k dps barriers and seeing my 3-4k dps in comparison. I'm aware that my role is not to deal damage but enable DDs to do their "job", though the gap is just way to large. If outside a dungeon I need like 30-40 seconds for some unimportant trash mob, while a DD kills it with one to two hits and also doesn't have an issue at surviving. Well, you can switch to DD gear than you might state, though I already have way to many sets in my inventory which is thus fully packed. This leads to a situation where I mainly play the tank in trials or dungeon as outside of these it is just a pain in the ***, though sadly I have been into random-dungeon-finder groups where I dealt almost 50% of the groups damage (with 4k dps -.-).

We've been adapting for ages.

Now, the only thing we'll be adapting for is PVP's latest temper tantrum.

I repeat: If it does not stop, PVE tanking will eventually hit a point where our ability to manage resources simply will not be able to keep up with the content. People like you who would like the heard to calm down wish ultimately harm upon this game, through indirect means.

Apathy is death. Besides. If we're going to get damage anyway as a result, why not just abolish tanking as an institution at that point? If we're all DPS anyway, why not stop pretending?

Either hold to the trinity, or remove the trinity. ZOS's dilly-dallying on that front hasn't helped the game either.

Every time block cost gets increased, threads like this one appear.

And every time tanks managed to figure out how to perma-block, in both PvE and PvP.

For all the talk about PvE and PvP, ZoS has been pretty consistent that they don't want tanks in PvE duct-taping the block key during dungeons and trial.

I'm not saying what ZoS did was right or will work, I am saying through ESO's history there have been a lot Chicken Little pronouncements how tanking is dead, when only the means have changed.

So now, this 5th time the cry of "Uncle" is the god's honest truth and ZoS totally boned tanks. OK, you may believe that, but there is a reason why other people, including ZoS, maybe a bit skeptical.

Does whole idea of enjoyable tanking require that you have to 100% hold down the right mouse button?

If you've seen anything I've posted on tanking, you'll know that I hate how tanking is right now @Joy_Division and you'll know that I long for a setup like say, a blood death knight from WoW. You'll know that I go out of my way to make templar tank builds based on healing. And you'll know one of the major reasons I hated morrowind, was because the sustain changes and class changes to Templar made that harder to the point of, the build is patheticly weak now.

You'll know that I've advocated tallent tree's and other customization options to make that style of play viable. What you might not know, is that I originally played Saptank pre imperial city. And almost completed the original raids on the original difficulty, we got to I think earth atro and got creamed due to lack of DPS. So believe me. I'd like nothing more than for tanking to evolve.

But at a raid level, the damage coming in is too big to be healed, and until that design changes, permablock is how it works at a raid level. So preserving how it works until we get changes to support other styles of play is the only course of action we really have. Believe me. I would give my left leg, to have a engaging form of tanking that is competative at the highest level.

And that's a gross overgeneralization. Did we cry it would break tanking when Bracing was released? No. We argued we didn't want Wrath and it wasn't condusive to PVE. We argued the block regen changes were not conducive to fun gameplay.

And right now, aside from me who postulates that -eventually- this will hit a point where it erodes the roll (And I think that will take a few more patche), the predominant concern is the fact this will drive further people attempting to tank away from the roll in a game where people are allready making threads about the lack of tanks. The endgame community is dwindling. It does not need kneecapped. (And before you leap to that defense, compared to what it was, it's dwindling.)

Joy, I love you, and you make some good points most of the time, but if you cant be bothered to pay attention then cobble a scarecrow from public perception instead of fact, you may as well not be here.

TLDR: I'm not arguing that, I'd like for tanking to evolve beyond what it is, but quite frankly the content needs to change to support that and if it wont, and the devs wont change it....rocking the boat is worth nothing.

They will change content only when people no longer run said content. As long as players keep adapting and adjusting to the nerfs there is no reason for ZOS to change the base game. It just means that they see that their method is working. HA tanking is done on live and there is no reason for it to not work when the patch goes live.

With any other company I'd say it'd be a done deal with this, but with this company, this company who's expressed outright confusion as to the concept of standard customization, I'd say we might not even get meaningfull change if this happens.

rustic_potato · January 2018

Morgul667 wrote: »

Make battle spirit bonus doubles the blocking cost.

That would fit fine with the half damage and healing policy (double blocking cost or half the blocking cost reduction, same or worst)

This is a PVE focused change as it is a buff to PVP tanks. Almost no properly specced PVP tank runs block cost enchants.

rustic_potato · January 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

We have to distinguish 2 scenarios here: default single-target boss fights and multi-add tanking. On single-target fights, sustain shouldn't be an issue. Most of the bosses do their heavy attacks once every 2-4 seconds and leave enough room to throw in heavy attacks in between and debuff the boss. Sure, 30 sec CD on synergies is a factor which reduces the overall sustain, though I don't think that this will make tanking impossible, just a bit more challenging. You also don't need to be argonian or DK in general, though especially argonian DKs will probably be the easiest to sustain - especially if not familiar with tanking. The real change though comes on multi-add fights as they will deplete your stamina quickly if perma-blocking. CC control will thus get more important again. Gladly, not many trial-encounters deal with multiple mobs to tank at once.

A random group and I attempted the final boss of fang lair on vet hm yesterday evening and it was partly ridiculous how quickly these two bugs that the boss spawned next to you could deplete your stamina and make you a one-hit to the bosses scarab attack. I wasn't familiar with the tank-changes back than though this could explain it at least. Though the adds seem to drain stamina even without blocking and especially slowing you permanently which makes tanking this boss just not fun at all (though vet normal is actually quite well balanced). Even as an Argonian DK I couldn't keep up with the resources needed. Guess this fight will be fun for any other tanking class. I have to admit though, that this was just a random group without VoIP tool and not an optimal strategy which lets room for quite some more improvements.

Sure, Alkosh will probably lose its charme in trials, though still you need to use a synergy every 10 seconds (for 3 in total) to keep it up all the time, usually the timing though of trigger one of the synergies is the limiting part of it. Most, especially stamina based, DDs don't need Alkosh anymore which also lead to its replacement by Torugs Pact, which is way easier to upkeep, especially with infused weapons. This will still be a viable set for trial-tanking, for dungeon-tanking we have to see if, especially due to frequent multi-mob situations, sustain-sets are preferable, which I think might be the case as mobs here in general do not life long enough to justify the debuffing overhead.

I have tanked and beaten every HM boss (except for vAS+2; though will so probably starting next week or the week after, cleared vAS +1 in both constelations multiple times so far) and usually staying alive isn't an issue in general, also resource managment is just a matter of confidence and knowledge about the encounters as you know when you can replenish your resources by heavy attacking and when special care needs to be put onto your resource management. The only situation that kills a non-permablocking tank here are rare insta-hits that hit you before the animation on the mob actually starts (I call them perfectly animation canceled ^^), this somethimes happens in vAS for some unknown reason and usually right after his lightning-kite stuff. Trying to taunt everything in multi-mob situations and using all of your skills constantly will just deplete your resources quickly. There is just a typical, but understandable, hystery on the upcoming changes which for sure will affect the overall gameplay. Though instead of switching roles and crying on the changes, we should learn to adept and improve our gameplay.

What I'd like to see though is a dmg increase for tanks as compensation for their sustain-loss. It feels just not right to see damage dealers break 70k dps barriers and seeing my 3-4k dps in comparison. I'm aware that my role is not to deal damage but enable DDs to do their "job", though the gap is just way to large. If outside a dungeon I need like 30-40 seconds for some unimportant trash mob, while a DD kills it with one to two hits and also doesn't have an issue at surviving. Well, you can switch to DD gear than you might state, though I already have way to many sets in my inventory which is thus fully packed. This leads to a situation where I mainly play the tank in trials or dungeon as outside of these it is just a pain in the ***, though sadly I have been into random-dungeon-finder groups where I dealt almost 50% of the groups damage (with 4k dps -.-).

We've been adapting for ages.

Now, the only thing we'll be adapting for is PVP's latest temper tantrum.

I repeat: If it does not stop, PVE tanking will eventually hit a point where our ability to manage resources simply will not be able to keep up with the content. People like you who would like the heard to calm down wish ultimately harm upon this game, through indirect means.

Apathy is death. Besides. If we're going to get damage anyway as a result, why not just abolish tanking as an institution at that point? If we're all DPS anyway, why not stop pretending?

Either hold to the trinity, or remove the trinity. ZOS's dilly-dallying on that front hasn't helped the game either.

Every time block cost gets increased, threads like this one appear.

And every time tanks managed to figure out how to perma-block, in both PvE and PvP.

For all the talk about PvE and PvP, ZoS has been pretty consistent that they don't want tanks in PvE duct-taping the block key during dungeons and trial.

I'm not saying what ZoS did was right or will work, I am saying through ESO's history there have been a lot Chicken Little pronouncements how tanking is dead, when only the means have changed.

So now, this 5th time the cry of "Uncle" is the god's honest truth and ZoS totally boned tanks. OK, you may believe that, but there is a reason why other people, including ZoS, maybe a bit skeptical.

Does whole idea of enjoyable tanking require that you have to 100% hold down the right mouse button?

If you've seen anything I've posted on tanking, you'll know that I hate how tanking is right now @Joy_Division and you'll know that I long for a setup like say, a blood death knight from WoW. You'll know that I go out of my way to make templar tank builds based on healing. And you'll know one of the major reasons I hated morrowind, was because the sustain changes and class changes to Templar made that harder to the point of, the build is patheticly weak now.

You'll know that I've advocated tallent tree's and other customization options to make that style of play viable. What you might not know, is that I originally played Saptank pre imperial city. And almost completed the original raids on the original difficulty, we got to I think earth atro and got creamed due to lack of DPS. So believe me. I'd like nothing more than for tanking to evolve.

But at a raid level, the damage coming in is too big to be healed, and until that design changes, permablock is how it works at a raid level. So preserving how it works until we get changes to support other styles of play is the only course of action we really have. Believe me. I would give my left leg, to have a engaging form of tanking that is competative at the highest level.

And that's a gross overgeneralization. Did we cry it would break tanking when Bracing was released? No. We argued we didn't want Wrath and it wasn't condusive to PVE. We argued the block regen changes were not conducive to fun gameplay.

And right now, aside from me who postulates that -eventually- this will hit a point where it erodes the roll (And I think that will take a few more patche), the predominant concern is the fact this will drive further people attempting to tank away from the roll in a game where people are allready making threads about the lack of tanks. The endgame community is dwindling. It does not need kneecapped. (And before you leap to that defense, compared to what it was, it's dwindling.)

Joy, I love you, and you make some good points most of the time, but if you cant be bothered to pay attention then cobble a scarecrow from public perception instead of fact, you may as well not be here.

TLDR: I'm not arguing that, I'd like for tanking to evolve beyond what it is, but quite frankly the content needs to change to support that and if it wont, and the devs wont change it....rocking the boat is worth nothing.

They will change content only when people no longer run said content. As long as players keep adapting and adjusting to the nerfs there is no reason for ZOS to change the base game. It just means that they see that their method is working. HA tanking is done on live and there is no reason for it to not work when the patch goes live.

With any other company I'd say it'd be a done deal with this, but with this company, this company who's expressed outright confusion as to the concept of standard customization, I'd say we might not even get meaningfull change if this happens.

Well we got transmute and transmog after 4 years. Going by that logic we are still very far away from reaching anything remotely close to game balance.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

We have to distinguish 2 scenarios here: default single-target boss fights and multi-add tanking. On single-target fights, sustain shouldn't be an issue. Most of the bosses do their heavy attacks once every 2-4 seconds and leave enough room to throw in heavy attacks in between and debuff the boss. Sure, 30 sec CD on synergies is a factor which reduces the overall sustain, though I don't think that this will make tanking impossible, just a bit more challenging. You also don't need to be argonian or DK in general, though especially argonian DKs will probably be the easiest to sustain - especially if not familiar with tanking. The real change though comes on multi-add fights as they will deplete your stamina quickly if perma-blocking. CC control will thus get more important again. Gladly, not many trial-encounters deal with multiple mobs to tank at once.

A random group and I attempted the final boss of fang lair on vet hm yesterday evening and it was partly ridiculous how quickly these two bugs that the boss spawned next to you could deplete your stamina and make you a one-hit to the bosses scarab attack. I wasn't familiar with the tank-changes back than though this could explain it at least. Though the adds seem to drain stamina even without blocking and especially slowing you permanently which makes tanking this boss just not fun at all (though vet normal is actually quite well balanced). Even as an Argonian DK I couldn't keep up with the resources needed. Guess this fight will be fun for any other tanking class. I have to admit though, that this was just a random group without VoIP tool and not an optimal strategy which lets room for quite some more improvements.

Sure, Alkosh will probably lose its charme in trials, though still you need to use a synergy every 10 seconds (for 3 in total) to keep it up all the time, usually the timing though of trigger one of the synergies is the limiting part of it. Most, especially stamina based, DDs don't need Alkosh anymore which also lead to its replacement by Torugs Pact, which is way easier to upkeep, especially with infused weapons. This will still be a viable set for trial-tanking, for dungeon-tanking we have to see if, especially due to frequent multi-mob situations, sustain-sets are preferable, which I think might be the case as mobs here in general do not life long enough to justify the debuffing overhead.

I have tanked and beaten every HM boss (except for vAS+2; though will so probably starting next week or the week after, cleared vAS +1 in both constelations multiple times so far) and usually staying alive isn't an issue in general, also resource managment is just a matter of confidence and knowledge about the encounters as you know when you can replenish your resources by heavy attacking and when special care needs to be put onto your resource management. The only situation that kills a non-permablocking tank here are rare insta-hits that hit you before the animation on the mob actually starts (I call them perfectly animation canceled ^^), this somethimes happens in vAS for some unknown reason and usually right after his lightning-kite stuff. Trying to taunt everything in multi-mob situations and using all of your skills constantly will just deplete your resources quickly. There is just a typical, but understandable, hystery on the upcoming changes which for sure will affect the overall gameplay. Though instead of switching roles and crying on the changes, we should learn to adept and improve our gameplay.

What I'd like to see though is a dmg increase for tanks as compensation for their sustain-loss. It feels just not right to see damage dealers break 70k dps barriers and seeing my 3-4k dps in comparison. I'm aware that my role is not to deal damage but enable DDs to do their "job", though the gap is just way to large. If outside a dungeon I need like 30-40 seconds for some unimportant trash mob, while a DD kills it with one to two hits and also doesn't have an issue at surviving. Well, you can switch to DD gear than you might state, though I already have way to many sets in my inventory which is thus fully packed. This leads to a situation where I mainly play the tank in trials or dungeon as outside of these it is just a pain in the ***, though sadly I have been into random-dungeon-finder groups where I dealt almost 50% of the groups damage (with 4k dps -.-).

We've been adapting for ages.

Now, the only thing we'll be adapting for is PVP's latest temper tantrum.

I repeat: If it does not stop, PVE tanking will eventually hit a point where our ability to manage resources simply will not be able to keep up with the content. People like you who would like the heard to calm down wish ultimately harm upon this game, through indirect means.

Apathy is death. Besides. If we're going to get damage anyway as a result, why not just abolish tanking as an institution at that point? If we're all DPS anyway, why not stop pretending?

Either hold to the trinity, or remove the trinity. ZOS's dilly-dallying on that front hasn't helped the game either.

Every time block cost gets increased, threads like this one appear.

And every time tanks managed to figure out how to perma-block, in both PvE and PvP.

For all the talk about PvE and PvP, ZoS has been pretty consistent that they don't want tanks in PvE duct-taping the block key during dungeons and trial.

I'm not saying what ZoS did was right or will work, I am saying through ESO's history there have been a lot Chicken Little pronouncements how tanking is dead, when only the means have changed.

So now, this 5th time the cry of "Uncle" is the god's honest truth and ZoS totally boned tanks. OK, you may believe that, but there is a reason why other people, including ZoS, maybe a bit skeptical.

Does whole idea of enjoyable tanking require that you have to 100% hold down the right mouse button?

If you've seen anything I've posted on tanking, you'll know that I hate how tanking is right now @Joy_Division and you'll know that I long for a setup like say, a blood death knight from WoW. You'll know that I go out of my way to make templar tank builds based on healing. And you'll know one of the major reasons I hated morrowind, was because the sustain changes and class changes to Templar made that harder to the point of, the build is patheticly weak now.

You'll know that I've advocated tallent tree's and other customization options to make that style of play viable. What you might not know, is that I originally played Saptank pre imperial city. And almost completed the original raids on the original difficulty, we got to I think earth atro and got creamed due to lack of DPS. So believe me. I'd like nothing more than for tanking to evolve.

But at a raid level, the damage coming in is too big to be healed, and until that design changes, permablock is how it works at a raid level. So preserving how it works until we get changes to support other styles of play is the only course of action we really have. Believe me. I would give my left leg, to have a engaging form of tanking that is competative at the highest level.

And that's a gross overgeneralization. Did we cry it would break tanking when Bracing was released? No. We argued we didn't want Wrath and it wasn't condusive to PVE. We argued the block regen changes were not conducive to fun gameplay.

And right now, aside from me who postulates that -eventually- this will hit a point where it erodes the roll (And I think that will take a few more patche), the predominant concern is the fact this will drive further people attempting to tank away from the roll in a game where people are allready making threads about the lack of tanks. The endgame community is dwindling. It does not need kneecapped. (And before you leap to that defense, compared to what it was, it's dwindling.)

Joy, I love you, and you make some good points most of the time, but if you cant be bothered to pay attention then cobble a scarecrow from public perception instead of fact, you may as well not be here.

TLDR: I'm not arguing that, I'd like for tanking to evolve beyond what it is, but quite frankly the content needs to change to support that and if it wont, and the devs wont change it....rocking the boat is worth nothing.

They will change content only when people no longer run said content. As long as players keep adapting and adjusting to the nerfs there is no reason for ZOS to change the base game. It just means that they see that their method is working. HA tanking is done on live and there is no reason for it to not work when the patch goes live.

With any other company I'd say it'd be a done deal with this, but with this company, this company who's expressed outright confusion as to the concept of standard customization, I'd say we might not even get meaningfull change if this happens.

Well we got transmute and transmog after 4 years. Going by that logic we are still very far away from reaching anything remotely close to game balance.

Amen.

I've said it once, said it a thousand times. If people wanna speed up the process, target the problem people on the dev team directly.

Morgul667 · January 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Make battle spirit bonus doubles the blocking cost.

That would fit fine with the half damage and healing policy (double blocking cost or half the blocking cost reduction, same or worst)

This is a PVE focused change as it is a buff to PVP tanks. Almost no properly specced PVP tank runs block cost enchants.

Then PVP block will be worst ?

not cool

If this is right, it definitely does not seem logical

BlazingDynamo · January 2018

Saint_Bud wrote: »

They not nerfing blockcost in the ground for PvP, they nerf it for PvE. Bad tanks dont were suppost sets and a lot of them fhinks stacking armour is the way to go. ZOS just want that good tanks run real tank sets, just as the bad tanks. And for PvP the cahange will a buff, because we can block more on a normal dk build.

Come again?

Joy_Division · January 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

We have to distinguish 2 scenarios here: default single-target boss fights and multi-add tanking. On single-target fights, sustain shouldn't be an issue. Most of the bosses do their heavy attacks once every 2-4 seconds and leave enough room to throw in heavy attacks in between and debuff the boss. Sure, 30 sec CD on synergies is a factor which reduces the overall sustain, though I don't think that this will make tanking impossible, just a bit more challenging. You also don't need to be argonian or DK in general, though especially argonian DKs will probably be the easiest to sustain - especially if not familiar with tanking. The real change though comes on multi-add fights as they will deplete your stamina quickly if perma-blocking. CC control will thus get more important again. Gladly, not many trial-encounters deal with multiple mobs to tank at once.

A random group and I attempted the final boss of fang lair on vet hm yesterday evening and it was partly ridiculous how quickly these two bugs that the boss spawned next to you could deplete your stamina and make you a one-hit to the bosses scarab attack. I wasn't familiar with the tank-changes back than though this could explain it at least. Though the adds seem to drain stamina even without blocking and especially slowing you permanently which makes tanking this boss just not fun at all (though vet normal is actually quite well balanced). Even as an Argonian DK I couldn't keep up with the resources needed. Guess this fight will be fun for any other tanking class. I have to admit though, that this was just a random group without VoIP tool and not an optimal strategy which lets room for quite some more improvements.

Sure, Alkosh will probably lose its charme in trials, though still you need to use a synergy every 10 seconds (for 3 in total) to keep it up all the time, usually the timing though of trigger one of the synergies is the limiting part of it. Most, especially stamina based, DDs don't need Alkosh anymore which also lead to its replacement by Torugs Pact, which is way easier to upkeep, especially with infused weapons. This will still be a viable set for trial-tanking, for dungeon-tanking we have to see if, especially due to frequent multi-mob situations, sustain-sets are preferable, which I think might be the case as mobs here in general do not life long enough to justify the debuffing overhead.

I have tanked and beaten every HM boss (except for vAS+2; though will so probably starting next week or the week after, cleared vAS +1 in both constelations multiple times so far) and usually staying alive isn't an issue in general, also resource managment is just a matter of confidence and knowledge about the encounters as you know when you can replenish your resources by heavy attacking and when special care needs to be put onto your resource management. The only situation that kills a non-permablocking tank here are rare insta-hits that hit you before the animation on the mob actually starts (I call them perfectly animation canceled ^^), this somethimes happens in vAS for some unknown reason and usually right after his lightning-kite stuff. Trying to taunt everything in multi-mob situations and using all of your skills constantly will just deplete your resources quickly. There is just a typical, but understandable, hystery on the upcoming changes which for sure will affect the overall gameplay. Though instead of switching roles and crying on the changes, we should learn to adept and improve our gameplay.

What I'd like to see though is a dmg increase for tanks as compensation for their sustain-loss. It feels just not right to see damage dealers break 70k dps barriers and seeing my 3-4k dps in comparison. I'm aware that my role is not to deal damage but enable DDs to do their "job", though the gap is just way to large. If outside a dungeon I need like 30-40 seconds for some unimportant trash mob, while a DD kills it with one to two hits and also doesn't have an issue at surviving. Well, you can switch to DD gear than you might state, though I already have way to many sets in my inventory which is thus fully packed. This leads to a situation where I mainly play the tank in trials or dungeon as outside of these it is just a pain in the ***, though sadly I have been into random-dungeon-finder groups where I dealt almost 50% of the groups damage (with 4k dps -.-).

We've been adapting for ages.

Now, the only thing we'll be adapting for is PVP's latest temper tantrum.

I repeat: If it does not stop, PVE tanking will eventually hit a point where our ability to manage resources simply will not be able to keep up with the content. People like you who would like the heard to calm down wish ultimately harm upon this game, through indirect means.

Apathy is death. Besides. If we're going to get damage anyway as a result, why not just abolish tanking as an institution at that point? If we're all DPS anyway, why not stop pretending?

Either hold to the trinity, or remove the trinity. ZOS's dilly-dallying on that front hasn't helped the game either.

Every time block cost gets increased, threads like this one appear.

And every time tanks managed to figure out how to perma-block, in both PvE and PvP.

For all the talk about PvE and PvP, ZoS has been pretty consistent that they don't want tanks in PvE duct-taping the block key during dungeons and trial.

I'm not saying what ZoS did was right or will work, I am saying through ESO's history there have been a lot Chicken Little pronouncements how tanking is dead, when only the means have changed.

So now, this 5th time the cry of "Uncle" is the god's honest truth and ZoS totally boned tanks. OK, you may believe that, but there is a reason why other people, including ZoS, maybe a bit skeptical.

Does whole idea of enjoyable tanking require that you have to 100% hold down the right mouse button?

If you've seen anything I've posted on tanking, you'll know that I hate how tanking is right now @Joy_Division and you'll know that I long for a setup like say, a blood death knight from WoW. You'll know that I go out of my way to make templar tank builds based on healing. And you'll know one of the major reasons I hated morrowind, was because the sustain changes and class changes to Templar made that harder to the point of, the build is patheticly weak now.

You'll know that I've advocated tallent tree's and other customization options to make that style of play viable. What you might not know, is that I originally played Saptank pre imperial city. And almost completed the original raids on the original difficulty, we got to I think earth atro and got creamed due to lack of DPS. So believe me. I'd like nothing more than for tanking to evolve.

But at a raid level, the damage coming in is too big to be healed, and until that design changes, permablock is how it works at a raid level. So preserving how it works until we get changes to support other styles of play is the only course of action we really have. Believe me. I would give my left leg, to have a engaging form of tanking that is competative at the highest level.

And that's a gross overgeneralization. Did we cry it would break tanking when Bracing was released? No. We argued we didn't want Wrath and it wasn't condusive to PVE. We argued the block regen changes were not conducive to fun gameplay.

And right now, aside from me who postulates that -eventually- this will hit a point where it erodes the roll (And I think that will take a few more patche), the predominant concern is the fact this will drive further people attempting to tank away from the roll in a game where people are allready making threads about the lack of tanks. The endgame community is dwindling. It does not need kneecapped. (And before you leap to that defense, compared to what it was, it's dwindling.)

Joy, I love you, and you make some good points most of the time, but if you cant be bothered to pay attention then cobble some strawman from public perception instead of fact, you may as well not be here. This is seriously beneath you.

TLDR: I'm not arguing that, I'd like for tanking to evolve beyond what it is, but quite frankly the content needs to change to support that and if it wont, and the devs wont change it....rocking the boat is worth nothing.

You can take out your frustrations out on me all you want and say I don't belong here, but yelling at me and for ZoS to unnerf us because the changes are hurting the community does not have a good track record at all. Just look at the Morrowind update. The resource management was widely panned and here we are still heavy attacking away.

Some of us aren't tanking experts. That doesn't mean we need to be berated and told to leave because some of us want to know why the 4th time ZoS is nerfing blocking is the straw that broke the camels back. It's the first day after the PTS dropped; most of the people here yelling at ZoS probably haven't even downloaded the it. A lot of people here like to think the devs have no clue and they just change thing willy nilly, but they put a lot of thought and work into this. Why are they wrong and people posting in this thread right? It's a legit question.

But I can sense when my presence is unwelcome so I will do as you wish and bow out so people can carry on pleading ZoS to unnerf stuff.

Onefrkncrzypope · January 2018

But you can look at the math and see that there will be a major problem with the block cost. Just sit down and see what it would take to endure a heavy fight. Will I be fine after it goes live? Probably but does that go for every person tanking not even close. We as a role are very rare. I was once sitting in craglorn and there was someone looking to get into vMoL and there was a very insightful response. Become a tank and they will find you... This will cut down the number of tanks even further.

Mister_DMC · January 2018

I'm skeptical but I'm sure I will evolve, as many have posted I don't feel this will fix anything in PvP and it's pretty much feeling like the same kind of sustain nerf as morrowind was on tanks.

I second that this will be brutal on new tanks.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

We have to distinguish 2 scenarios here: default single-target boss fights and multi-add tanking. On single-target fights, sustain shouldn't be an issue. Most of the bosses do their heavy attacks once every 2-4 seconds and leave enough room to throw in heavy attacks in between and debuff the boss. Sure, 30 sec CD on synergies is a factor which reduces the overall sustain, though I don't think that this will make tanking impossible, just a bit more challenging. You also don't need to be argonian or DK in general, though especially argonian DKs will probably be the easiest to sustain - especially if not familiar with tanking. The real change though comes on multi-add fights as they will deplete your stamina quickly if perma-blocking. CC control will thus get more important again. Gladly, not many trial-encounters deal with multiple mobs to tank at once.

A random group and I attempted the final boss of fang lair on vet hm yesterday evening and it was partly ridiculous how quickly these two bugs that the boss spawned next to you could deplete your stamina and make you a one-hit to the bosses scarab attack. I wasn't familiar with the tank-changes back than though this could explain it at least. Though the adds seem to drain stamina even without blocking and especially slowing you permanently which makes tanking this boss just not fun at all (though vet normal is actually quite well balanced). Even as an Argonian DK I couldn't keep up with the resources needed. Guess this fight will be fun for any other tanking class. I have to admit though, that this was just a random group without VoIP tool and not an optimal strategy which lets room for quite some more improvements.

Sure, Alkosh will probably lose its charme in trials, though still you need to use a synergy every 10 seconds (for 3 in total) to keep it up all the time, usually the timing though of trigger one of the synergies is the limiting part of it. Most, especially stamina based, DDs don't need Alkosh anymore which also lead to its replacement by Torugs Pact, which is way easier to upkeep, especially with infused weapons. This will still be a viable set for trial-tanking, for dungeon-tanking we have to see if, especially due to frequent multi-mob situations, sustain-sets are preferable, which I think might be the case as mobs here in general do not life long enough to justify the debuffing overhead.

I have tanked and beaten every HM boss (except for vAS+2; though will so probably starting next week or the week after, cleared vAS +1 in both constelations multiple times so far) and usually staying alive isn't an issue in general, also resource managment is just a matter of confidence and knowledge about the encounters as you know when you can replenish your resources by heavy attacking and when special care needs to be put onto your resource management. The only situation that kills a non-permablocking tank here are rare insta-hits that hit you before the animation on the mob actually starts (I call them perfectly animation canceled ^^), this somethimes happens in vAS for some unknown reason and usually right after his lightning-kite stuff. Trying to taunt everything in multi-mob situations and using all of your skills constantly will just deplete your resources quickly. There is just a typical, but understandable, hystery on the upcoming changes which for sure will affect the overall gameplay. Though instead of switching roles and crying on the changes, we should learn to adept and improve our gameplay.

What I'd like to see though is a dmg increase for tanks as compensation for their sustain-loss. It feels just not right to see damage dealers break 70k dps barriers and seeing my 3-4k dps in comparison. I'm aware that my role is not to deal damage but enable DDs to do their "job", though the gap is just way to large. If outside a dungeon I need like 30-40 seconds for some unimportant trash mob, while a DD kills it with one to two hits and also doesn't have an issue at surviving. Well, you can switch to DD gear than you might state, though I already have way to many sets in my inventory which is thus fully packed. This leads to a situation where I mainly play the tank in trials or dungeon as outside of these it is just a pain in the ***, though sadly I have been into random-dungeon-finder groups where I dealt almost 50% of the groups damage (with 4k dps -.-).

We've been adapting for ages.

Now, the only thing we'll be adapting for is PVP's latest temper tantrum.

I repeat: If it does not stop, PVE tanking will eventually hit a point where our ability to manage resources simply will not be able to keep up with the content. People like you who would like the heard to calm down wish ultimately harm upon this game, through indirect means.

Apathy is death. Besides. If we're going to get damage anyway as a result, why not just abolish tanking as an institution at that point? If we're all DPS anyway, why not stop pretending?

Either hold to the trinity, or remove the trinity. ZOS's dilly-dallying on that front hasn't helped the game either.

Every time block cost gets increased, threads like this one appear.

And every time tanks managed to figure out how to perma-block, in both PvE and PvP.

For all the talk about PvE and PvP, ZoS has been pretty consistent that they don't want tanks in PvE duct-taping the block key during dungeons and trial.

I'm not saying what ZoS did was right or will work, I am saying through ESO's history there have been a lot Chicken Little pronouncements how tanking is dead, when only the means have changed.

So now, this 5th time the cry of "Uncle" is the god's honest truth and ZoS totally boned tanks. OK, you may believe that, but there is a reason why other people, including ZoS, maybe a bit skeptical.

Does whole idea of enjoyable tanking require that you have to 100% hold down the right mouse button?

If you've seen anything I've posted on tanking, you'll know that I hate how tanking is right now @Joy_Division and you'll know that I long for a setup like say, a blood death knight from WoW. You'll know that I go out of my way to make templar tank builds based on healing. And you'll know one of the major reasons I hated morrowind, was because the sustain changes and class changes to Templar made that harder to the point of, the build is patheticly weak now.

You'll know that I've advocated tallent tree's and other customization options to make that style of play viable. What you might not know, is that I originally played Saptank pre imperial city. And almost completed the original raids on the original difficulty, we got to I think earth atro and got creamed due to lack of DPS. So believe me. I'd like nothing more than for tanking to evolve.

But at a raid level, the damage coming in is too big to be healed, and until that design changes, permablock is how it works at a raid level. So preserving how it works until we get changes to support other styles of play is the only course of action we really have. Believe me. I would give my left leg, to have a engaging form of tanking that is competative at the highest level.

And that's a gross overgeneralization. Did we cry it would break tanking when Bracing was released? No. We argued we didn't want Wrath and it wasn't condusive to PVE. We argued the block regen changes were not conducive to fun gameplay.

And right now, aside from me who postulates that -eventually- this will hit a point where it erodes the roll (And I think that will take a few more patche), the predominant concern is the fact this will drive further people attempting to tank away from the roll in a game where people are allready making threads about the lack of tanks. The endgame community is dwindling. It does not need kneecapped. (And before you leap to that defense, compared to what it was, it's dwindling.)

Joy, I love you, and you make some good points most of the time, but if you cant be bothered to pay attention then cobble some strawman from public perception instead of fact, you may as well not be here. This is seriously beneath you.

TLDR: I'm not arguing that, I'd like for tanking to evolve beyond what it is, but quite frankly the content needs to change to support that and if it wont, and the devs wont change it....rocking the boat is worth nothing.

You can take out your frustrations out on me all you want and say I don't belong here, but yelling at me and for ZoS to unnerf us because the changes are hurting the community does not have a good track record at all. Just look at the Morrowind update. The resource management was widely panned and here we are still heavy attacking away.

Some of us aren't tanking experts. That doesn't mean we need to be berated and told to leave because some of us want to know why the 4th time ZoS is nerfing blocking is the straw that broke the camels back. It's the first day after the PTS dropped; most of the people here yelling at ZoS probably haven't even downloaded the it. A lot of people here like to think the devs have no clue and they just change thing willy nilly, but they put a lot of thought and work into this. Why are they wrong and people posting in this thread right? It's a legit question.

But I can sense when my presence is unwelcome so I will do as you wish and bow out so people can carry on pleading ZoS to unnerf stuff.

Dont belong here? I'm more apt to call you out for outright lying about the positions of the people you choose to defame. It's not your opinion that I have an issue with, it's your complete, willfull misrepresentation of me and other people who have a horse in this race, and who've argued over the course of this games lifetime against one change or another. You lied about me. You implied I want permablock to stay, and you continue to use the same obfuscation tactic to imply I want people to leave who disagree with me.

@Joy_Division The only people wrong for posting in this thread are the people who deliberately lie about others, and the people who take a subjective assessment and use it as justification for broad, sweeping changes. If you have some sort of concrete mechanical reason or a plan for change, fine. A change you want to see. A way to add to a bossfight through mechanical changes in line with a plan for the game, that's absolutely great. This is a place to share idea's. But walking in and going 'ya'll crybabies' or 'it's easy lol shutup' isn't helpfull to anyone and isn't conducive to a actual discussion. Walking in and puting words in peoples mouth isn't much better.

If and when you feel like acknowledging that you lied and working with me on that, I'll be happy to have that conversation with you. Otherwise, this is the last response your gonna get, all the best to you. Have a nice day, and may your future discussions help the game.

Conduit0 · January 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Make battle spirit bonus doubles the blocking cost.

That would fit fine with the half damage and healing policy (double blocking cost or half the blocking cost reduction, same or worst)

This is a PVE focused change as it is a buff to PVP tanks. Almost no properly specced PVP tank runs block cost enchants.

I'm sorry but this statement is Pure Grade A Organically Grown male bovine excrement. The block cost nerf was brought on entirely by the incessant whining of pvpers about permablocking tanks. ZOS has repeatedly proven that they are too lazy or too incompetent to make balance changes to one area of the game without screwing up a different area of the game.

Joy_Division · January 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

We have to distinguish 2 scenarios here: default single-target boss fights and multi-add tanking. On single-target fights, sustain shouldn't be an issue. Most of the bosses do their heavy attacks once every 2-4 seconds and leave enough room to throw in heavy attacks in between and debuff the boss. Sure, 30 sec CD on synergies is a factor which reduces the overall sustain, though I don't think that this will make tanking impossible, just a bit more challenging. You also don't need to be argonian or DK in general, though especially argonian DKs will probably be the easiest to sustain - especially if not familiar with tanking. The real change though comes on multi-add fights as they will deplete your stamina quickly if perma-blocking. CC control will thus get more important again. Gladly, not many trial-encounters deal with multiple mobs to tank at once.

A random group and I attempted the final boss of fang lair on vet hm yesterday evening and it was partly ridiculous how quickly these two bugs that the boss spawned next to you could deplete your stamina and make you a one-hit to the bosses scarab attack. I wasn't familiar with the tank-changes back than though this could explain it at least. Though the adds seem to drain stamina even without blocking and especially slowing you permanently which makes tanking this boss just not fun at all (though vet normal is actually quite well balanced). Even as an Argonian DK I couldn't keep up with the resources needed. Guess this fight will be fun for any other tanking class. I have to admit though, that this was just a random group without VoIP tool and not an optimal strategy which lets room for quite some more improvements.

Sure, Alkosh will probably lose its charme in trials, though still you need to use a synergy every 10 seconds (for 3 in total) to keep it up all the time, usually the timing though of trigger one of the synergies is the limiting part of it. Most, especially stamina based, DDs don't need Alkosh anymore which also lead to its replacement by Torugs Pact, which is way easier to upkeep, especially with infused weapons. This will still be a viable set for trial-tanking, for dungeon-tanking we have to see if, especially due to frequent multi-mob situations, sustain-sets are preferable, which I think might be the case as mobs here in general do not life long enough to justify the debuffing overhead.

I have tanked and beaten every HM boss (except for vAS+2; though will so probably starting next week or the week after, cleared vAS +1 in both constelations multiple times so far) and usually staying alive isn't an issue in general, also resource managment is just a matter of confidence and knowledge about the encounters as you know when you can replenish your resources by heavy attacking and when special care needs to be put onto your resource management. The only situation that kills a non-permablocking tank here are rare insta-hits that hit you before the animation on the mob actually starts (I call them perfectly animation canceled ^^), this somethimes happens in vAS for some unknown reason and usually right after his lightning-kite stuff. Trying to taunt everything in multi-mob situations and using all of your skills constantly will just deplete your resources quickly. There is just a typical, but understandable, hystery on the upcoming changes which for sure will affect the overall gameplay. Though instead of switching roles and crying on the changes, we should learn to adept and improve our gameplay.

What I'd like to see though is a dmg increase for tanks as compensation for their sustain-loss. It feels just not right to see damage dealers break 70k dps barriers and seeing my 3-4k dps in comparison. I'm aware that my role is not to deal damage but enable DDs to do their "job", though the gap is just way to large. If outside a dungeon I need like 30-40 seconds for some unimportant trash mob, while a DD kills it with one to two hits and also doesn't have an issue at surviving. Well, you can switch to DD gear than you might state, though I already have way to many sets in my inventory which is thus fully packed. This leads to a situation where I mainly play the tank in trials or dungeon as outside of these it is just a pain in the ***, though sadly I have been into random-dungeon-finder groups where I dealt almost 50% of the groups damage (with 4k dps -.-).

We've been adapting for ages.

Now, the only thing we'll be adapting for is PVP's latest temper tantrum.

I repeat: If it does not stop, PVE tanking will eventually hit a point where our ability to manage resources simply will not be able to keep up with the content. People like you who would like the heard to calm down wish ultimately harm upon this game, through indirect means.

Apathy is death. Besides. If we're going to get damage anyway as a result, why not just abolish tanking as an institution at that point? If we're all DPS anyway, why not stop pretending?

Either hold to the trinity, or remove the trinity. ZOS's dilly-dallying on that front hasn't helped the game either.

Every time block cost gets increased, threads like this one appear.

And every time tanks managed to figure out how to perma-block, in both PvE and PvP.

For all the talk about PvE and PvP, ZoS has been pretty consistent that they don't want tanks in PvE duct-taping the block key during dungeons and trial.

I'm not saying what ZoS did was right or will work, I am saying through ESO's history there have been a lot Chicken Little pronouncements how tanking is dead, when only the means have changed.

So now, this 5th time the cry of "Uncle" is the god's honest truth and ZoS totally boned tanks. OK, you may believe that, but there is a reason why other people, including ZoS, maybe a bit skeptical.

Does whole idea of enjoyable tanking require that you have to 100% hold down the right mouse button?

If you've seen anything I've posted on tanking, you'll know that I hate how tanking is right now @Joy_Division and you'll know that I long for a setup like say, a blood death knight from WoW. You'll know that I go out of my way to make templar tank builds based on healing. And you'll know one of the major reasons I hated morrowind, was because the sustain changes and class changes to Templar made that harder to the point of, the build is patheticly weak now.

You'll know that I've advocated tallent tree's and other customization options to make that style of play viable. What you might not know, is that I originally played Saptank pre imperial city. And almost completed the original raids on the original difficulty, we got to I think earth atro and got creamed due to lack of DPS. So believe me. I'd like nothing more than for tanking to evolve.

But at a raid level, the damage coming in is too big to be healed, and until that design changes, permablock is how it works at a raid level. So preserving how it works until we get changes to support other styles of play is the only course of action we really have. Believe me. I would give my left leg, to have a engaging form of tanking that is competative at the highest level.

And that's a gross overgeneralization. Did we cry it would break tanking when Bracing was released? No. We argued we didn't want Wrath and it wasn't condusive to PVE. We argued the block regen changes were not conducive to fun gameplay.

And right now, aside from me who postulates that -eventually- this will hit a point where it erodes the roll (And I think that will take a few more patche), the predominant concern is the fact this will drive further people attempting to tank away from the roll in a game where people are allready making threads about the lack of tanks. The endgame community is dwindling. It does not need kneecapped. (And before you leap to that defense, compared to what it was, it's dwindling.)

Joy, I love you, and you make some good points most of the time, but if you cant be bothered to pay attention then cobble some strawman from public perception instead of fact, you may as well not be here. This is seriously beneath you.

TLDR: I'm not arguing that, I'd like for tanking to evolve beyond what it is, but quite frankly the content needs to change to support that and if it wont, and the devs wont change it....rocking the boat is worth nothing.

You can take out your frustrations out on me all you want and say I don't belong here, but yelling at me and for ZoS to unnerf us because the changes are hurting the community does not have a good track record at all. Just look at the Morrowind update. The resource management was widely panned and here we are still heavy attacking away.

Some of us aren't tanking experts. That doesn't mean we need to be berated and told to leave because some of us want to know why the 4th time ZoS is nerfing blocking is the straw that broke the camels back. It's the first day after the PTS dropped; most of the people here yelling at ZoS probably haven't even downloaded the it. A lot of people here like to think the devs have no clue and they just change thing willy nilly, but they put a lot of thought and work into this. Why are they wrong and people posting in this thread right? It's a legit question.

But I can sense when my presence is unwelcome so I will do as you wish and bow out so people can carry on pleading ZoS to unnerf stuff.

Dont belong here? I'm more apt to call you out for outright lying about the positions of the people you choose to defame. It's not your opinion that I have an issue with, it's your complete, willfull misrepresentation of me and other people who have a horse in this race, and who've argued over the course of this games lifetime against one change or another. You lied about me. You implied I want permablock to stay, and you continue to use the same obfuscation tactic to imply I want people to leave who disagree with me.

@Joy_Division The only people wrong for posting in this thread are the people who deliberately lie about others, and the people who take a subjective assessment and use it as justification for broad, sweeping changes. If you have some sort of concrete mechanical reason or a plan for change, fine. A change you want to see. A way to add to a bossfight through mechanical changes in line with a plan for the game, that's absolutely great. This is a place to share idea's. But walking in and going 'ya'll crybabies' or 'it's easy lol shutup' isn't helpfull to anyone and isn't conducive to a actual discussion. Walking in and puting words in peoples mouth isn't much better.

If and when you feel like acknowledging that you lied and working with me on that, I'll be happy to have that conversation with you. Otherwise, this is the last response your gonna get, all the best to you. Have a nice day, and may your future discussions help the game.

You are getting aggressive. I'm not the person who laughed at you earlier in this thread.

I don't know your posting history and nothing I wrote was personally directed at you. I don't even know who you are. I'm not even justifying the changes. Did I call you a "crybaby" or say "it's easy lol shutup?" No I didn't.

But you are passionate and I can respect that so I apologize for wording my concerns in such a way that made it seem like you and others wanted to keep perma-blocking.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

We have to distinguish 2 scenarios here: default single-target boss fights and multi-add tanking. On single-target fights, sustain shouldn't be an issue. Most of the bosses do their heavy attacks once every 2-4 seconds and leave enough room to throw in heavy attacks in between and debuff the boss. Sure, 30 sec CD on synergies is a factor which reduces the overall sustain, though I don't think that this will make tanking impossible, just a bit more challenging. You also don't need to be argonian or DK in general, though especially argonian DKs will probably be the easiest to sustain - especially if not familiar with tanking. The real change though comes on multi-add fights as they will deplete your stamina quickly if perma-blocking. CC control will thus get more important again. Gladly, not many trial-encounters deal with multiple mobs to tank at once.

A random group and I attempted the final boss of fang lair on vet hm yesterday evening and it was partly ridiculous how quickly these two bugs that the boss spawned next to you could deplete your stamina and make you a one-hit to the bosses scarab attack. I wasn't familiar with the tank-changes back than though this could explain it at least. Though the adds seem to drain stamina even without blocking and especially slowing you permanently which makes tanking this boss just not fun at all (though vet normal is actually quite well balanced). Even as an Argonian DK I couldn't keep up with the resources needed. Guess this fight will be fun for any other tanking class. I have to admit though, that this was just a random group without VoIP tool and not an optimal strategy which lets room for quite some more improvements.

Sure, Alkosh will probably lose its charme in trials, though still you need to use a synergy every 10 seconds (for 3 in total) to keep it up all the time, usually the timing though of trigger one of the synergies is the limiting part of it. Most, especially stamina based, DDs don't need Alkosh anymore which also lead to its replacement by Torugs Pact, which is way easier to upkeep, especially with infused weapons. This will still be a viable set for trial-tanking, for dungeon-tanking we have to see if, especially due to frequent multi-mob situations, sustain-sets are preferable, which I think might be the case as mobs here in general do not life long enough to justify the debuffing overhead.

I have tanked and beaten every HM boss (except for vAS+2; though will so probably starting next week or the week after, cleared vAS +1 in both constelations multiple times so far) and usually staying alive isn't an issue in general, also resource managment is just a matter of confidence and knowledge about the encounters as you know when you can replenish your resources by heavy attacking and when special care needs to be put onto your resource management. The only situation that kills a non-permablocking tank here are rare insta-hits that hit you before the animation on the mob actually starts (I call them perfectly animation canceled ^^), this somethimes happens in vAS for some unknown reason and usually right after his lightning-kite stuff. Trying to taunt everything in multi-mob situations and using all of your skills constantly will just deplete your resources quickly. There is just a typical, but understandable, hystery on the upcoming changes which for sure will affect the overall gameplay. Though instead of switching roles and crying on the changes, we should learn to adept and improve our gameplay.

What I'd like to see though is a dmg increase for tanks as compensation for their sustain-loss. It feels just not right to see damage dealers break 70k dps barriers and seeing my 3-4k dps in comparison. I'm aware that my role is not to deal damage but enable DDs to do their "job", though the gap is just way to large. If outside a dungeon I need like 30-40 seconds for some unimportant trash mob, while a DD kills it with one to two hits and also doesn't have an issue at surviving. Well, you can switch to DD gear than you might state, though I already have way to many sets in my inventory which is thus fully packed. This leads to a situation where I mainly play the tank in trials or dungeon as outside of these it is just a pain in the ***, though sadly I have been into random-dungeon-finder groups where I dealt almost 50% of the groups damage (with 4k dps -.-).

We've been adapting for ages.

Now, the only thing we'll be adapting for is PVP's latest temper tantrum.

I repeat: If it does not stop, PVE tanking will eventually hit a point where our ability to manage resources simply will not be able to keep up with the content. People like you who would like the heard to calm down wish ultimately harm upon this game, through indirect means.

Apathy is death. Besides. If we're going to get damage anyway as a result, why not just abolish tanking as an institution at that point? If we're all DPS anyway, why not stop pretending?

Either hold to the trinity, or remove the trinity. ZOS's dilly-dallying on that front hasn't helped the game either.

Every time block cost gets increased, threads like this one appear.

And every time tanks managed to figure out how to perma-block, in both PvE and PvP.

For all the talk about PvE and PvP, ZoS has been pretty consistent that they don't want tanks in PvE duct-taping the block key during dungeons and trial.

I'm not saying what ZoS did was right or will work, I am saying through ESO's history there have been a lot Chicken Little pronouncements how tanking is dead, when only the means have changed.

So now, this 5th time the cry of "Uncle" is the god's honest truth and ZoS totally boned tanks. OK, you may believe that, but there is a reason why other people, including ZoS, maybe a bit skeptical.

Does whole idea of enjoyable tanking require that you have to 100% hold down the right mouse button?

If you've seen anything I've posted on tanking, you'll know that I hate how tanking is right now @Joy_Division and you'll know that I long for a setup like say, a blood death knight from WoW. You'll know that I go out of my way to make templar tank builds based on healing. And you'll know one of the major reasons I hated morrowind, was because the sustain changes and class changes to Templar made that harder to the point of, the build is patheticly weak now.

You'll know that I've advocated tallent tree's and other customization options to make that style of play viable. What you might not know, is that I originally played Saptank pre imperial city. And almost completed the original raids on the original difficulty, we got to I think earth atro and got creamed due to lack of DPS. So believe me. I'd like nothing more than for tanking to evolve.

But at a raid level, the damage coming in is too big to be healed, and until that design changes, permablock is how it works at a raid level. So preserving how it works until we get changes to support other styles of play is the only course of action we really have. Believe me. I would give my left leg, to have a engaging form of tanking that is competative at the highest level.

And that's a gross overgeneralization. Did we cry it would break tanking when Bracing was released? No. We argued we didn't want Wrath and it wasn't condusive to PVE. We argued the block regen changes were not conducive to fun gameplay.

And right now, aside from me who postulates that -eventually- this will hit a point where it erodes the roll (And I think that will take a few more patche), the predominant concern is the fact this will drive further people attempting to tank away from the roll in a game where people are allready making threads about the lack of tanks. The endgame community is dwindling. It does not need kneecapped. (And before you leap to that defense, compared to what it was, it's dwindling.)

Joy, I love you, and you make some good points most of the time, but if you cant be bothered to pay attention then cobble some strawman from public perception instead of fact, you may as well not be here. This is seriously beneath you.

TLDR: I'm not arguing that, I'd like for tanking to evolve beyond what it is, but quite frankly the content needs to change to support that and if it wont, and the devs wont change it....rocking the boat is worth nothing.

You can take out your frustrations out on me all you want and say I don't belong here, but yelling at me and for ZoS to unnerf us because the changes are hurting the community does not have a good track record at all. Just look at the Morrowind update. The resource management was widely panned and here we are still heavy attacking away.

Some of us aren't tanking experts. That doesn't mean we need to be berated and told to leave because some of us want to know why the 4th time ZoS is nerfing blocking is the straw that broke the camels back. It's the first day after the PTS dropped; most of the people here yelling at ZoS probably haven't even downloaded the it. A lot of people here like to think the devs have no clue and they just change thing willy nilly, but they put a lot of thought and work into this. Why are they wrong and people posting in this thread right? It's a legit question.

But I can sense when my presence is unwelcome so I will do as you wish and bow out so people can carry on pleading ZoS to unnerf stuff.

Dont belong here? I'm more apt to call you out for outright lying about the positions of the people you choose to defame. It's not your opinion that I have an issue with, it's your complete, willfull misrepresentation of me and other people who have a horse in this race, and who've argued over the course of this games lifetime against one change or another. You lied about me. You implied I want permablock to stay, and you continue to use the same obfuscation tactic to imply I want people to leave who disagree with me.

@Joy_Division The only people wrong for posting in this thread are the people who deliberately lie about others, and the people who take a subjective assessment and use it as justification for broad, sweeping changes. If you have some sort of concrete mechanical reason or a plan for change, fine. A change you want to see. A way to add to a bossfight through mechanical changes in line with a plan for the game, that's absolutely great. This is a place to share idea's. But walking in and going 'ya'll crybabies' or 'it's easy lol shutup' isn't helpfull to anyone and isn't conducive to a actual discussion. Walking in and puting words in peoples mouth isn't much better.

If and when you feel like acknowledging that you lied and working with me on that, I'll be happy to have that conversation with you. Otherwise, this is the last response your gonna get, all the best to you. Have a nice day, and may your future discussions help the game.

You are getting aggressive. I'm not the person who laughed at you earlier in this thread.

I don't know your posting history and nothing I wrote was personally directed at you. I don't even know who you are. I'm not even justifying the changes. Did I call you a "crybaby" or say "it's easy lol shutup?" No I didn't.

But you are passionate and I can respect that so I apologize for wording my concerns in such a way that made it seem like you and others wanted to keep perma-blocking.

While i'm happy we've got that out of the way, I have to ask: Then why quote me? It was the direct quote, combined with the question that set me off, because I wondered where the hell you got that assumption from? And why walk into the thread, talking about how we're all over-reacting? The reason I specifically lump you in with that guy, is that attitude is no more helpfull that is. I was trying to draw that picture, it obviously went over someones head and I'm not sure who's.

If that wasn't the aim, why start out with it?

Carbonised · January 2018

HegemonIQ wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

"Tactically block" my tookus.

They want to please a PVP playerbase who the majority of content isn't produced for.

ADD THE COST INCREASE TO BATTLE SPIRIT. STOP SCREWING THE REST OF US.

Typing everything with caps doesn't change the fact that this was just as much about PvE as PvP. ZOS has noticed that tanks spend 10 % of their time tanking and 90 % of their time aiding group dps, putting buffs on raid group, putting debuffs on the boss. And they concluded that the actual tanking must be too trivial if a tank can spend his majority of time and ressources to boost group DPS. And they are right. It's a nice change that tanks actually have to worry more about tanking and less about being a group buff bot. It's not about PvP.

Careful what you wish for. If the intent of this change is to make tanks focus on tanking only, no group utility...then the same could be said for healers. Maybe they should worry more about healing and less about being a group utility buff bot.

Actually, maybe healers should focus more on healing and keeping people alive, instead of focusing most of their time on aiding group dps.

The only problem is that most difficult mechanics in vet dungs and vet trials here in ESO are one shots, and no amount of healing is helping with that, so that's an obstacle that will have to be dealt with before healing in itself becomes more important. There's also the fact that almost every DPS has a self heal skill or skills that don't require them to slow down DPSing at all.

The current meta has been warhorn rotation on healers and tank for ages, just maybe it would be interesting to break this meta, and have healers slot ults that focus more on group healing and shielding, and tanks slot ults that focus more on keeping themselves and the group alive.

Kessra · January 2018

@Joy_Division @Doctordarkspawn This is how tanks handle their conflicts. On disagreement, they start a fight throwing litterally dabber at each other (as of lack of dmg ^^) until they aren't sure why they even started it XD

But in all seriousness, I think arguing pro and con the changes does not make much of a difference until decission-takers (ZOS employees) start to take an open discussion with us and explaining their thought process in more details so we might understand them better and stop yelling at them. I do also believe that some of the old trials should get adapted slightly to compensate for the changes, especially in regards to new tanks. I.e. the swing-timer on the axes in vAA could be increased by 0.5-1 second to give tanks enough room to do their heavy attack or slow down the spawn of axes after a certain amount exponentially. While the first two axes will spawn right after the pull, the 3rd one is slightly delayed compared to now while the 4th axe will need even more time to spawn, continuing this trend for axees 5 and 6 and thereafter.

Experienced tanks will always find a time window to set of a heavy attack in between and replenish their resources. With the upcoming off-balance change there will further be a 4 second window where it is super benefitial to do heavy attacks (roughly every 20 seconds) where you even get double the amount of resources. This tough, requires tanks to be even more situation aware than before. Due to this, I don't think that trial-tanks will switch gear or skills actually. As off-balance can't be guaranteed in dungeon-groups all the time, unless the tank does use a destro-staff on the offbar, and dungeons quite often throw in multi-mob pulls these kind of tanks might change their gear or their abilities used (switch to 1h+shield/frost- or lighningstaff) once the changes go life as they are.

Asardes · January 2018

Well if nothing works when the patch hits I'll have a good ol' Hist Bark crafted, pair it with Dragon or WW Hide and Bloodspawn, and shed some of the debuffs. Hist Bark is basically 15% block cost reduction and 15% mitigation during longer fights, the other 2 help you pump up Warhorn faster and recover resources.