PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

rustic_potato

Liofa wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

If block only stops secondary effects like stun, snares, knockbacks and oneshots instead of the insane damage mitigation it would solve the problem. That promotes "you block only when you need to" mindset and keep tanking interesting.

This would be decent for PvP but destroy PvE . There are boss attacks that can deal 20k+ damage even while blocking . Here is an example , Assembly General . The famous punch . Can't dodge it , have to block . If you don't block , guaranteed death ^^

@Liofa I agree. The mitigation has to be built into tanking in another way. There are multiple possibilities
Reduce the damage done by bosses.
Add more mitigation to the sword and board skill line.
The minor and major aegis effects could be reworked to add mitigation without disrupting PVP.
A combination of this can be done to achieve the result.

Also your example is one of the attacks that should be blocked similar to the warrior swipes, rakkhat gun and other boss heavy attacks. By removing damage mitigation from blocking we remove the need to block for every attack.

ZOS wants tanks to tactically block. Removing damage mitigation from block is the only way to achieve that without discouraging the prospect of tanking.

munster1404

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You really do not need to use blockade honestly, if you are heavy attacking you can keep crusher up just fine doing that. Heavy attacking does not take long at all, you shouldn't be losing downtimes.

Sustaining won't be that difficult if you roll the appropriate race and class for it, and we are end game players, running what is best in slot should not be an issue for anyone.

I agree these are straight nerfs and we keep getting tank nerfs because of PvP which is ridiculous but these nerfs aren't the end of the world, I kinda like these ones as it's going to make tanking a little harder.

I actually need to run Blockade . Applying Crusher while stunned or while being away from boss makes a huge difference in many fights . You must have seen some Storm Atro parses before . While no-lightning-staff tanks are getting around 70% , I consider 99% as low . Just an example .

About heavy attacks , it is true that they don't take long but it doesn't change the fact that they take longer than normal . A heavy attack + skill is slower than two skills in a row . I will be losing buff uptimes and so are you , like everyone else .

The thing that makes me mad been pointed by many other players . Problem is not permablocking . It is the amount of healing and mitigation . Almost all PvP builds being centered around burst is just the perfect proof of that . Anyway , that's about PvP so I don't want to get into that even more . It is just that I don't like getting nerfed because of something that is completely unrelated to me .

The only real differences I see is that you are going to need to be an Argonian and make clever use of their passives.

Almost forgot . This is an another nerf . As an Imperial , if I switch to Argonian , I'll be losing stats to recover (only a part of) the lost sustain . What a joke ...

Stamden wrote: »

I never got why people complain about permablocking builds in PvP in the first place. It's annoying, but there is nothing effective about it.

True . I wish ZOS would see this as clear as we do . They are just listening to some casuls who are simply bad at PvP

I have a "selfish" build for solo overland content. Rather than the meta Ebon/Torug's, I run a Plague Doctor/Shacklebreaker for fun. I even slot Dawnbreaker for that extra weapon damage.

Saint_Bud

They not nerfing blockcost in the ground for PvP, they nerf it for PvE. Bad tanks dont were suppost sets and a lot of them fhinks stacking armour is the way to go. ZOS just want that good tanks run real tank sets, just as the bad tanks. And for PvP the cahange will a buff, because we can block more on a normal dk build.

Liofa

Nifty2g wrote: »

You should theoretically not need balance if you are argonian and say Engulfing is procing most of your magickasteal reliably but lets assume we are using balance to keep up our armor buffs

I start off by going longest to shortest so; taunt, heroic slash, engulfing (i'd use balance on the next rotation and then use it every 2nd set). Since crusher normally procs on taunt engulfing is where i heavy attack to proc it again before i redo that rotation. light attacking depends on the bosses attack pattern so I don't get one shot which is why i didn't include it

I don't use blockade because I really don't see a point to it, crusher is applying all the time with torugs and infused changes but I guess it's personal preference at this point. So that's 1 less thing I need to worry about, and because it has a 8 second timer would also throw off a rotation without spending all your resources. All I will change this update is making sure I don't use a potion when a boss is offbalanced.

As for Alkosh, it's a bit difficult and it is hard to get a perfect uptime on it anyway with how synergies are right now and it's going to be even harder unless you can fit a warden healer into the group. The main thing about that rotation is keeping up crusher honestly, so you need to track it and depending where you are in the rotation to heavy attack before picking up a synergy.

But yeah, I really don't think tanking will change much for us other than possibly changing race, but we will see. That might not even be needed. I mean it'd make everything a lot easier.

And lets be honest, not every uptime will be perfect because a lot of the time boss mechanics are preventing it, either they jump around or they have invulnerability phases.

Hmmm , maybe it is because I don't use Torug's . I have to wait almost full duration of Crusher to proc it again . That's why I prefer Destro Staff . I stopped using it because I realized that it is overkill for Stamina DDs .

100 (base penetration) + 5280 (Major Fracture) + 2580 (NMG) + 3440 (Sunderflame) + 1320 (PotL) + 3010 (Alkosh) + 2740 (Torug Crusher) = 18470 . This is more than what trial bosses have . If I don't use Torug's , which can make my healers be able to use Crusher (less pressure on tank and more uptime in trash fights) as well , it goes down to 17838 . This can be covered with only 3 points into Piercing . Even though it as full benefit on Magicka DDs , I don't think it is worth it . There is a big difference in applying 5 second cooldown Crusher and 3.5 second cooldown Crusher . If I use Torug's again , I'll make sure to try your rotation

Saint_Bud wrote: »

They not nerfing blockcost in the ground for PvP, they nerf it for PvE. Bad tanks dont were suppost sets and a lot of them fhinks stacking armour is the way to go. ZOS just want that good tanks run real tank sets, just as the bad tanks. And for PvP the cahange will a buff, because we can block more on a normal dk build.

Yep , very true . Only a few useless bricks are running Shield-Play enchants in PvP , never killed anyone who has enough brains ^^ Real problem is people who know how to properly time their blocks and now they got buffed . RIP ^^

munster1404 wrote: »

I have a "selfish" build for solo overland content. Rather than the meta Ebon/Torug's, I run a Plague Doctor/Shacklebreaker for fun. I even slot Dawnbreaker for that extra weapon damage.

I highly recommend running a mDK build instead . Charged Lightning with Shock enchant and infinite Power Lashes . A lot of damage and a lot of healing ^^ Sadly won't be viable next patch

Oakmontowls_ESO

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You should theoretically not need balance if you are argonian and say Engulfing is procing most of your magickasteal reliably but lets assume we are using balance to keep up our armor buffs

I start off by going longest to shortest so; taunt, heroic slash, engulfing (i'd use balance on the next rotation and then use it every 2nd set). Since crusher normally procs on taunt engulfing is where i heavy attack to proc it again before i redo that rotation. light attacking depends on the bosses attack pattern so I don't get one shot which is why i didn't include it

I don't use blockade because I really don't see a point to it, crusher is applying all the time with torugs and infused changes but I guess it's personal preference at this point. So that's 1 less thing I need to worry about, and because it has a 8 second timer would also throw off a rotation without spending all your resources. All I will change this update is making sure I don't use a potion when a boss is offbalanced.

As for Alkosh, it's a bit difficult and it is hard to get a perfect uptime on it anyway with how synergies are right now and it's going to be even harder unless you can fit a warden healer into the group. The main thing about that rotation is keeping up crusher honestly, so you need to track it and depending where you are in the rotation to heavy attack before picking up a synergy.

But yeah, I really don't think tanking will change much for us other than possibly changing race, but we will see. That might not even be needed. I mean it'd make everything a lot easier.

And lets be honest, not every uptime will be perfect because a lot of the time boss mechanics are preventing it, either they jump around or they have invulnerability phases.

Hmmm , maybe it is because I don't use Torug's . I have to wait almost full duration of Crusher to proc it again . That's why I prefer Destro Staff . I stopped using it because I realized that it is overkill for Stamina DDs .

100 (base penetration) + 5280 (Major Fracture) + 2580 (NMG) + 3440 (Sunderflame) + 1320 (PotL) + 3010 (Alkosh) + 2740 (Torug Crusher) = 18470 . This is more than what trial bosses have . If I don't use Torug's , which can make my healers be able to use Crusher (less pressure on tank and more uptime in trash fights) as well , it goes down to 17838 . This can be covered with only 3 points into Piercing . Even though it as full benefit on Magicka DDs , I don't think it is worth it . There is a big difference in applying 5 second cooldown Crusher and 3.5 second cooldown Crusher . If I use Torug's again , I'll make sure to try your rotation

Saint_Bud wrote: »

They not nerfing blockcost in the ground for PvP, they nerf it for PvE. Bad tanks dont were suppost sets and a lot of them fhinks stacking armour is the way to go. ZOS just want that good tanks run real tank sets, just as the bad tanks. And for PvP the cahange will a buff, because we can block more on a normal dk build.

Yep , very true . Only a few useless bricks are running Shield-Play enchants in PvP , never killed anyone who has enough brains ^^ Real problem is people who know how to properly time their blocks and now they got buffed . RIP ^^

munster1404 wrote: »

I have a "selfish" build for solo overland content. Rather than the meta Ebon/Torug's, I run a Plague Doctor/Shacklebreaker for fun. I even slot Dawnbreaker for that extra weapon damage.

I highly recommend running a mDK build instead . Charged Lightning with Shock enchant and infinite Power Lashes . A lot of damage and a lot of healing ^^ Sadly won't be viable next patch

Why not drop Alkosh for Torags? With how bad synergies are I would think the higher uptime and potency of crusher would be better than the Alkosh debuff.

Tasear

Sneaking in here but,

You won't be able to use orbs or shards as much. Cool down is 30 secs instead of 20 secs. That's 33% less sustain?

Nifty2g

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You should theoretically not need balance if you are argonian and say Engulfing is procing most of your magickasteal reliably but lets assume we are using balance to keep up our armor buffs

I start off by going longest to shortest so; taunt, heroic slash, engulfing (i'd use balance on the next rotation and then use it every 2nd set). Since crusher normally procs on taunt engulfing is where i heavy attack to proc it again before i redo that rotation. light attacking depends on the bosses attack pattern so I don't get one shot which is why i didn't include it

I don't use blockade because I really don't see a point to it, crusher is applying all the time with torugs and infused changes but I guess it's personal preference at this point. So that's 1 less thing I need to worry about, and because it has a 8 second timer would also throw off a rotation without spending all your resources. All I will change this update is making sure I don't use a potion when a boss is offbalanced.

As for Alkosh, it's a bit difficult and it is hard to get a perfect uptime on it anyway with how synergies are right now and it's going to be even harder unless you can fit a warden healer into the group. The main thing about that rotation is keeping up crusher honestly, so you need to track it and depending where you are in the rotation to heavy attack before picking up a synergy.

But yeah, I really don't think tanking will change much for us other than possibly changing race, but we will see. That might not even be needed. I mean it'd make everything a lot easier.

And lets be honest, not every uptime will be perfect because a lot of the time boss mechanics are preventing it, either they jump around or they have invulnerability phases.

Hmmm , maybe it is because I don't use Torug's . I have to wait almost full duration of Crusher to proc it again . That's why I prefer Destro Staff . I stopped using it because I realized that it is overkill for Stamina DDs .

100 (base penetration) + 5280 (Major Fracture) + 2580 (NMG) + 3440 (Sunderflame) + 1320 (PotL) + 3010 (Alkosh) + 2740 (Torug Crusher) = 18470 . This is more than what trial bosses have . If I don't use Torug's , which can make my healers be able to use Crusher (less pressure on tank and more uptime in trash fights) as well , it goes down to 17838 . This can be covered with only 3 points into Piercing . Even though it as full benefit on Magicka DDs , I don't think it is worth it . There is a big difference in applying 5 second cooldown Crusher and 3.5 second cooldown Crusher . If I use Torug's again , I'll make sure to try your rotation

Saint_Bud wrote: »

They not nerfing blockcost in the ground for PvP, they nerf it for PvE. Bad tanks dont were suppost sets and a lot of them fhinks stacking armour is the way to go. ZOS just want that good tanks run real tank sets, just as the bad tanks. And for PvP the cahange will a buff, because we can block more on a normal dk build.

Yep , very true . Only a few useless bricks are running Shield-Play enchants in PvP , never killed anyone who has enough brains ^^ Real problem is people who know how to properly time their blocks and now they got buffed . RIP ^^

munster1404 wrote: »

I have a "selfish" build for solo overland content. Rather than the meta Ebon/Torug's, I run a Plague Doctor/Shacklebreaker for fun. I even slot Dawnbreaker for that extra weapon damage.

I highly recommend running a mDK build instead . Charged Lightning with Shock enchant and infinite Power Lashes . A lot of damage and a lot of healing ^^ Sadly won't be viable next patch

Why not drop Alkosh for Torags? With how bad synergies are I would think the higher uptime and potency of crusher would be better than the Alkosh debuff.

I don't think you should drop either personally. Uptimes aren't always perfect, I like torugs cause it bridges the gap and stables penetration debuffs.

Tasear wrote: »

Sneaking in here but,

You won't be able to use orbs or shards as much. Cool down is 30 secs instead of 20 secs. That's 33% less sustain?

Most people aren't hitting orbs or shards on cooldown right now, they're unable to even hit them sometimes

Tasear

Nifty2g wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You should theoretically not need balance if you are argonian and say Engulfing is procing most of your magickasteal reliably but lets assume we are using balance to keep up our armor buffs

I start off by going longest to shortest so; taunt, heroic slash, engulfing (i'd use balance on the next rotation and then use it every 2nd set). Since crusher normally procs on taunt engulfing is where i heavy attack to proc it again before i redo that rotation. light attacking depends on the bosses attack pattern so I don't get one shot which is why i didn't include it

I don't use blockade because I really don't see a point to it, crusher is applying all the time with torugs and infused changes but I guess it's personal preference at this point. So that's 1 less thing I need to worry about, and because it has a 8 second timer would also throw off a rotation without spending all your resources. All I will change this update is making sure I don't use a potion when a boss is offbalanced.

As for Alkosh, it's a bit difficult and it is hard to get a perfect uptime on it anyway with how synergies are right now and it's going to be even harder unless you can fit a warden healer into the group. The main thing about that rotation is keeping up crusher honestly, so you need to track it and depending where you are in the rotation to heavy attack before picking up a synergy.

But yeah, I really don't think tanking will change much for us other than possibly changing race, but we will see. That might not even be needed. I mean it'd make everything a lot easier.

And lets be honest, not every uptime will be perfect because a lot of the time boss mechanics are preventing it, either they jump around or they have invulnerability phases.

Hmmm , maybe it is because I don't use Torug's . I have to wait almost full duration of Crusher to proc it again . That's why I prefer Destro Staff . I stopped using it because I realized that it is overkill for Stamina DDs .

100 (base penetration) + 5280 (Major Fracture) + 2580 (NMG) + 3440 (Sunderflame) + 1320 (PotL) + 3010 (Alkosh) + 2740 (Torug Crusher) = 18470 . This is more than what trial bosses have . If I don't use Torug's , which can make my healers be able to use Crusher (less pressure on tank and more uptime in trash fights) as well , it goes down to 17838 . This can be covered with only 3 points into Piercing . Even though it as full benefit on Magicka DDs , I don't think it is worth it . There is a big difference in applying 5 second cooldown Crusher and 3.5 second cooldown Crusher . If I use Torug's again , I'll make sure to try your rotation

Saint_Bud wrote: »

They not nerfing blockcost in the ground for PvP, they nerf it for PvE. Bad tanks dont were suppost sets and a lot of them fhinks stacking armour is the way to go. ZOS just want that good tanks run real tank sets, just as the bad tanks. And for PvP the cahange will a buff, because we can block more on a normal dk build.

Yep , very true . Only a few useless bricks are running Shield-Play enchants in PvP , never killed anyone who has enough brains ^^ Real problem is people who know how to properly time their blocks and now they got buffed . RIP ^^

munster1404 wrote: »

I have a "selfish" build for solo overland content. Rather than the meta Ebon/Torug's, I run a Plague Doctor/Shacklebreaker for fun. I even slot Dawnbreaker for that extra weapon damage.

I highly recommend running a mDK build instead . Charged Lightning with Shock enchant and infinite Power Lashes . A lot of damage and a lot of healing ^^ Sadly won't be viable next patch

Why not drop Alkosh for Torags? With how bad synergies are I would think the higher uptime and potency of crusher would be better than the Alkosh debuff.

I don't think you should drop either personally. Uptimes aren't always perfect, I like torugs cause it bridges the gap and stables penetration debuffs.

Tasear wrote: »

Sneaking in here but,

You won't be able to use orbs or shards as much. Cool down is 30 secs instead of 20 secs. That's 33% less sustain?

Most people aren't hitting orbs or shards on cooldown right now, they're unable to even hit them sometimes

But synergies are "fixed" this patch.

Nifty2g

Tasear wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You should theoretically not need balance if you are argonian and say Engulfing is procing most of your magickasteal reliably but lets assume we are using balance to keep up our armor buffs

I start off by going longest to shortest so; taunt, heroic slash, engulfing (i'd use balance on the next rotation and then use it every 2nd set). Since crusher normally procs on taunt engulfing is where i heavy attack to proc it again before i redo that rotation. light attacking depends on the bosses attack pattern so I don't get one shot which is why i didn't include it

I don't use blockade because I really don't see a point to it, crusher is applying all the time with torugs and infused changes but I guess it's personal preference at this point. So that's 1 less thing I need to worry about, and because it has a 8 second timer would also throw off a rotation without spending all your resources. All I will change this update is making sure I don't use a potion when a boss is offbalanced.

As for Alkosh, it's a bit difficult and it is hard to get a perfect uptime on it anyway with how synergies are right now and it's going to be even harder unless you can fit a warden healer into the group. The main thing about that rotation is keeping up crusher honestly, so you need to track it and depending where you are in the rotation to heavy attack before picking up a synergy.

But yeah, I really don't think tanking will change much for us other than possibly changing race, but we will see. That might not even be needed. I mean it'd make everything a lot easier.

And lets be honest, not every uptime will be perfect because a lot of the time boss mechanics are preventing it, either they jump around or they have invulnerability phases.

Hmmm , maybe it is because I don't use Torug's . I have to wait almost full duration of Crusher to proc it again . That's why I prefer Destro Staff . I stopped using it because I realized that it is overkill for Stamina DDs .

100 (base penetration) + 5280 (Major Fracture) + 2580 (NMG) + 3440 (Sunderflame) + 1320 (PotL) + 3010 (Alkosh) + 2740 (Torug Crusher) = 18470 . This is more than what trial bosses have . If I don't use Torug's , which can make my healers be able to use Crusher (less pressure on tank and more uptime in trash fights) as well , it goes down to 17838 . This can be covered with only 3 points into Piercing . Even though it as full benefit on Magicka DDs , I don't think it is worth it . There is a big difference in applying 5 second cooldown Crusher and 3.5 second cooldown Crusher . If I use Torug's again , I'll make sure to try your rotation

Saint_Bud wrote: »

They not nerfing blockcost in the ground for PvP, they nerf it for PvE. Bad tanks dont were suppost sets and a lot of them fhinks stacking armour is the way to go. ZOS just want that good tanks run real tank sets, just as the bad tanks. And for PvP the cahange will a buff, because we can block more on a normal dk build.

Yep , very true . Only a few useless bricks are running Shield-Play enchants in PvP , never killed anyone who has enough brains ^^ Real problem is people who know how to properly time their blocks and now they got buffed . RIP ^^

munster1404 wrote: »

I have a "selfish" build for solo overland content. Rather than the meta Ebon/Torug's, I run a Plague Doctor/Shacklebreaker for fun. I even slot Dawnbreaker for that extra weapon damage.

I highly recommend running a mDK build instead . Charged Lightning with Shock enchant and infinite Power Lashes . A lot of damage and a lot of healing ^^ Sadly won't be viable next patch

Why not drop Alkosh for Torags? With how bad synergies are I would think the higher uptime and potency of crusher would be better than the Alkosh debuff.

I don't think you should drop either personally. Uptimes aren't always perfect, I like torugs cause it bridges the gap and stables penetration debuffs.

Tasear wrote: »

Sneaking in here but,

You won't be able to use orbs or shards as much. Cool down is 30 secs instead of 20 secs. That's 33% less sustain?

Most people aren't hitting orbs or shards on cooldown right now, they're unable to even hit them sometimes

But synergies are "fixed" this patch.

Yes but in comparison I wouldn't say it's 33% less sustain or anything

Tasear

Nifty2g wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You should theoretically not need balance if you are argonian and say Engulfing is procing most of your magickasteal reliably but lets assume we are using balance to keep up our armor buffs

I start off by going longest to shortest so; taunt, heroic slash, engulfing (i'd use balance on the next rotation and then use it every 2nd set). Since crusher normally procs on taunt engulfing is where i heavy attack to proc it again before i redo that rotation. light attacking depends on the bosses attack pattern so I don't get one shot which is why i didn't include it

I don't use blockade because I really don't see a point to it, crusher is applying all the time with torugs and infused changes but I guess it's personal preference at this point. So that's 1 less thing I need to worry about, and because it has a 8 second timer would also throw off a rotation without spending all your resources. All I will change this update is making sure I don't use a potion when a boss is offbalanced.

As for Alkosh, it's a bit difficult and it is hard to get a perfect uptime on it anyway with how synergies are right now and it's going to be even harder unless you can fit a warden healer into the group. The main thing about that rotation is keeping up crusher honestly, so you need to track it and depending where you are in the rotation to heavy attack before picking up a synergy.

But yeah, I really don't think tanking will change much for us other than possibly changing race, but we will see. That might not even be needed. I mean it'd make everything a lot easier.

And lets be honest, not every uptime will be perfect because a lot of the time boss mechanics are preventing it, either they jump around or they have invulnerability phases.

Hmmm , maybe it is because I don't use Torug's . I have to wait almost full duration of Crusher to proc it again . That's why I prefer Destro Staff . I stopped using it because I realized that it is overkill for Stamina DDs .

100 (base penetration) + 5280 (Major Fracture) + 2580 (NMG) + 3440 (Sunderflame) + 1320 (PotL) + 3010 (Alkosh) + 2740 (Torug Crusher) = 18470 . This is more than what trial bosses have . If I don't use Torug's , which can make my healers be able to use Crusher (less pressure on tank and more uptime in trash fights) as well , it goes down to 17838 . This can be covered with only 3 points into Piercing . Even though it as full benefit on Magicka DDs , I don't think it is worth it . There is a big difference in applying 5 second cooldown Crusher and 3.5 second cooldown Crusher . If I use Torug's again , I'll make sure to try your rotation

Saint_Bud wrote: »

They not nerfing blockcost in the ground for PvP, they nerf it for PvE. Bad tanks dont were suppost sets and a lot of them fhinks stacking armour is the way to go. ZOS just want that good tanks run real tank sets, just as the bad tanks. And for PvP the cahange will a buff, because we can block more on a normal dk build.

Yep , very true . Only a few useless bricks are running Shield-Play enchants in PvP , never killed anyone who has enough brains ^^ Real problem is people who know how to properly time their blocks and now they got buffed . RIP ^^

munster1404 wrote: »

I have a "selfish" build for solo overland content. Rather than the meta Ebon/Torug's, I run a Plague Doctor/Shacklebreaker for fun. I even slot Dawnbreaker for that extra weapon damage.

I highly recommend running a mDK build instead . Charged Lightning with Shock enchant and infinite Power Lashes . A lot of damage and a lot of healing ^^ Sadly won't be viable next patch

Why not drop Alkosh for Torags? With how bad synergies are I would think the higher uptime and potency of crusher would be better than the Alkosh debuff.

I don't think you should drop either personally. Uptimes aren't always perfect, I like torugs cause it bridges the gap and stables penetration debuffs.

Tasear wrote: »

Sneaking in here but,

You won't be able to use orbs or shards as much. Cool down is 30 secs instead of 20 secs. That's 33% less sustain?

Most people aren't hitting orbs or shards on cooldown right now, they're unable to even hit them sometimes

But synergies are "fixed" this patch.

Yes but in comparison I wouldn't say it's 33% less sustain or anything

4k less + undaunted passive being something around 6k less for some every 10 secs.

Nifty2g

Tasear wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You should theoretically not need balance if you are argonian and say Engulfing is procing most of your magickasteal reliably but lets assume we are using balance to keep up our armor buffs

I start off by going longest to shortest so; taunt, heroic slash, engulfing (i'd use balance on the next rotation and then use it every 2nd set). Since crusher normally procs on taunt engulfing is where i heavy attack to proc it again before i redo that rotation. light attacking depends on the bosses attack pattern so I don't get one shot which is why i didn't include it

I don't use blockade because I really don't see a point to it, crusher is applying all the time with torugs and infused changes but I guess it's personal preference at this point. So that's 1 less thing I need to worry about, and because it has a 8 second timer would also throw off a rotation without spending all your resources. All I will change this update is making sure I don't use a potion when a boss is offbalanced.

As for Alkosh, it's a bit difficult and it is hard to get a perfect uptime on it anyway with how synergies are right now and it's going to be even harder unless you can fit a warden healer into the group. The main thing about that rotation is keeping up crusher honestly, so you need to track it and depending where you are in the rotation to heavy attack before picking up a synergy.

But yeah, I really don't think tanking will change much for us other than possibly changing race, but we will see. That might not even be needed. I mean it'd make everything a lot easier.

And lets be honest, not every uptime will be perfect because a lot of the time boss mechanics are preventing it, either they jump around or they have invulnerability phases.

Hmmm , maybe it is because I don't use Torug's . I have to wait almost full duration of Crusher to proc it again . That's why I prefer Destro Staff . I stopped using it because I realized that it is overkill for Stamina DDs .

100 (base penetration) + 5280 (Major Fracture) + 2580 (NMG) + 3440 (Sunderflame) + 1320 (PotL) + 3010 (Alkosh) + 2740 (Torug Crusher) = 18470 . This is more than what trial bosses have . If I don't use Torug's , which can make my healers be able to use Crusher (less pressure on tank and more uptime in trash fights) as well , it goes down to 17838 . This can be covered with only 3 points into Piercing . Even though it as full benefit on Magicka DDs , I don't think it is worth it . There is a big difference in applying 5 second cooldown Crusher and 3.5 second cooldown Crusher . If I use Torug's again , I'll make sure to try your rotation

Saint_Bud wrote: »

They not nerfing blockcost in the ground for PvP, they nerf it for PvE. Bad tanks dont were suppost sets and a lot of them fhinks stacking armour is the way to go. ZOS just want that good tanks run real tank sets, just as the bad tanks. And for PvP the cahange will a buff, because we can block more on a normal dk build.

Yep , very true . Only a few useless bricks are running Shield-Play enchants in PvP , never killed anyone who has enough brains ^^ Real problem is people who know how to properly time their blocks and now they got buffed . RIP ^^

munster1404 wrote: »

I have a "selfish" build for solo overland content. Rather than the meta Ebon/Torug's, I run a Plague Doctor/Shacklebreaker for fun. I even slot Dawnbreaker for that extra weapon damage.

I highly recommend running a mDK build instead . Charged Lightning with Shock enchant and infinite Power Lashes . A lot of damage and a lot of healing ^^ Sadly won't be viable next patch

Why not drop Alkosh for Torags? With how bad synergies are I would think the higher uptime and potency of crusher would be better than the Alkosh debuff.

I don't think you should drop either personally. Uptimes aren't always perfect, I like torugs cause it bridges the gap and stables penetration debuffs.

Tasear wrote: »

Sneaking in here but,

You won't be able to use orbs or shards as much. Cool down is 30 secs instead of 20 secs. That's 33% less sustain?

Most people aren't hitting orbs or shards on cooldown right now, they're unable to even hit them sometimes

But synergies are "fixed" this patch.

Yes but in comparison I wouldn't say it's 33% less sustain or anything

4k less + undaunted passive being something around 6k less for some every 10 secs.

Yes but you are comparing something to something that barely even works right now, as I mentioned people are not hitting synergies on cooldowns right now.

Doctordarkspawn

Bump. This shouldn't die. This should keep going.

It's hard for people to be outraged because they're used to ZOS screwing with the game, but they shouldn't be. There should be pressure on the problem people in ZOS to resign.

Rex-Umbra

Watched some streamers tank, and they were always struggling for resources.

Doctordarkspawn

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Watched some streamers tank, and they were always struggling for resources.

Mind saying what ones?

And yeah, now we're seeing tanking start to break down in it's most fundemental form.

SirCritical

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Good . Tanks can cry all they like it was out of control . Good job Wrobel .

This is a PvE thread . If a PvE tank killed you or you failed to kill them , I don't know what to say . If a PvP tank killed you , lol that's even worse ^^

Nifty2g wrote: »

If you are using a storm atro parse here, there is no reason why you wouldn't be able to sustain on that fight in this coming patch anyway. Nothing will change for that fight at all. Or any ranged fights for that matter where you are going to use blockade.

What buff uptime are you losing, a heavy attack takes 1 second, I don't understand what buff you are going to be losing.

Rakkhat Barrage . You will be blocking at least 10 hits back to back , which will consume at least 330 stamina , while using Absorb Magic . That's almost 10k stamina , just like that . Without having any time to actually debuff boss .

What about axes ? Will you drop block to heavy attack which will make you take several 5k hits in that small window ?

While tanking warrior , will you take the chance of getting knocked back to adds attack ? They are almost instant you know ...

I play with at least 120 ping and to be honest , I am not gonna do any of these unless I have to .

Anyway , I hope you are right . I really do .

Vaoh wrote: »

Why not balance PvP permablocking with Battlespirit nerfs? ....sigh

Because ZOS ^^

ZoS has stated many times they do not balance PVP and PVE separate so if you make a thread about blocking it involves both PVP and PVE . There are no PVE only threads on balance . You assume too much like I don't have a perma blocking tank that people can't kill without a Zerg . You are too emotional about the issue to see clearly and just make accusations . PVE is rediculous easy . If this change makes you walk away from tanking , it is you , not I that needs to L2P and GitGid lol .

If you'd be right, then Battle Spirit wouldn't exist at all. Stop spreading lies pls. This nerf is one of the worst, almost equal to stamregen nerf when blocking. I was really waiting for a thread like this from Liofa, and feared his math results. I'm very upset because of those numbers. Our guild completed vAA HM yesterday, for the first time. I was handling 5 axes. I dunno how this will be possible with this block cost increase. This was just an example. You know, these changes like this will widen the hatred between PvEers and PvPers. Let's state that this is a PvP oriented game, then we'll have the reason finally why we leave. This isn't true ofc, since I really like this game, but the infinite nerfs don't help in any balance.

SirCritical

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

You assume too much like I don't have a perma blocking tank that people can't kill without a Zerg .

So you are saying that permablock tanks can only be killed with a zerg . Ok . I understand that you have no idea about not only PvE , also PvP . I am not going to bother with your useless comments on this thread anymore . Good day .

Enjoy your nerf . Haha

Earlier you seemed like a nice person. Now I'm starting to feel something wrong happened with you, that's why you became this sarcastic, rude and disrespectful. I'm sad.

Rex-Umbra

Kinda feel like tanks need love.

Doctordarkspawn

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Good . Tanks can cry all they like it was out of control . Good job Wrobel .

This is a PvE thread . If a PvE tank killed you or you failed to kill them , I don't know what to say . If a PvP tank killed you , lol that's even worse ^^

Nifty2g wrote: »

If you are using a storm atro parse here, there is no reason why you wouldn't be able to sustain on that fight in this coming patch anyway. Nothing will change for that fight at all. Or any ranged fights for that matter where you are going to use blockade.

What buff uptime are you losing, a heavy attack takes 1 second, I don't understand what buff you are going to be losing.

Rakkhat Barrage . You will be blocking at least 10 hits back to back , which will consume at least 330 stamina , while using Absorb Magic . That's almost 10k stamina , just like that . Without having any time to actually debuff boss .

What about axes ? Will you drop block to heavy attack which will make you take several 5k hits in that small window ?

While tanking warrior , will you take the chance of getting knocked back to adds attack ? They are almost instant you know ...

I play with at least 120 ping and to be honest , I am not gonna do any of these unless I have to .

Anyway , I hope you are right . I really do .

Vaoh wrote: »

Why not balance PvP permablocking with Battlespirit nerfs? ....sigh

Because ZOS ^^

ZoS has stated many times they do not balance PVP and PVE separate so if you make a thread about blocking it involves both PVP and PVE . There are no PVE only threads on balance . You assume too much like I don't have a perma blocking tank that people can't kill without a Zerg . You are too emotional about the issue to see clearly and just make accusations . PVE is rediculous easy . If this change makes you walk away from tanking , it is you , not I that needs to L2P and GitGid lol .

1. Battle spirit exists. Stop spreading lies.

2. There is 'can' adapt and 'should' adapt. This is a question of 'should' adapt.

ZOS started trying to balance the two seperate, then stopped arbitarily. I will not stop calling for them to start, stop trying to harm the game, intentionally or not, with your dated way of thinking.

On the subject of ridiculously easy, then if you'll just produce footage of you tanking all current trials with the new balance then we'll all shut up.

Otherwise? Shut up yourself.

Valencer

At this point it's obvious ZOS just wants tanks to be 40-50k health meat shields that stand there and spam heavy attacks (and block the occasional incoming enemy heavy attack).

I will keep saying this until the day I quit the game: tanking was in a good spot pre-morrowind. Tanks didnt even need to run sturdy to sustain permablock - they just had to be good at sustaining their stamina (And be a DK, sadly/naturally). Tanking back then was far more dynamic and interesting and you could actively support your group with things like echoing vigor off-heals.

You literally forced people into running lots of sturdy with the ridiculous block nerf that came with morrowind and just can't accept that the vision you have for PvE tanking is not one that a lot of people actually want to take part in.

The sad thing is that if we had Homestead blocking back, these block cost calculation nerfs wouldnt even be so bad. Tanks would actually have far more build variety, being able to go with block cost reduction glyphs OR sturdy OR possibly mix and match a little bit of both.

As for non-DK tanks... They gutted DK sustain with morrowind to open up the possibility of using other classes as tanks but at the same time made the new trials and tanking in general all about being a high health meat shield. And it just so happens DK is the only class with an effective heal that scales off max health AND has good tanking utility skills.

SirCritical

They should use Battle Spirit for this ***, problem solved.

Doctordarkspawn

SirCritical wrote: »

They should use Battle Spirit for this ***, problem solved.

This is what everyone says. We keep saying it. They never do.

SirCritical

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

SirCritical wrote: »

They should use Battle Spirit for this ***, problem solved.

This is what everyone says. We keep saying it. They never do.

I know

Valencer

Battle spirit isnt a solution.

Blocking is too dangerous for non-tank builds in both PvP and PvE, and block cost can be dropped to ridiculously low levels in both PvP and PvE.

Again, they should go back to the drawing board and look at why you didnt NEED that much block cost reduction pre-morrowind (as a tank) and try to move back towards that. I know they won't - it's ZOS and they almost never reevaluate previous balance changes - but they really should be doing this.

SirCritical

How the hell could it be dangerous in PvE?! Which mob from yesterday's trial run are you, seriously, to complain?!

code65536

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

PVE is rediculous easy .

@Rohamad_Ali Until you've tanked all the vet trial hardmodes, you have no qualification to make such a pronouncement.

Conduit0

rustic_potato wrote: »

ZOS wants tanks to tactically block. Removing damage mitigation from block is the only way to achieve that without discouraging the prospect of tanking.

If ZOS wants us to "tactically" block then why the bloody hell do they keep making bosses that can two/three shot even a well built tank with their regular attacks? The damage output of trial bosses is not conducive to tactical blocking at all.

Asardes

Liofa wrote: »

Let's do two different setups . First one with 3 Shield-Play enchants , second one with none .

First setup has 336 block cost while the second one has 520 . Looking at the difference , Shield-Play enchants doesn't seem to be as effective as before . 3 enchants give you a block cost reduction of 184 , which was 609 before the nerf . This brings up the question . Shield-Play enchants are worth it or not ?

So they glyphs will still be pretty effective if I don't use Sturdy in my build, but become less and less so the more sturdy I add. In that case I think I'll farm geodes, transmute everything I have to sturdy and change to magicka recovery ones since that seems more effective because my magicka recovery multipliers can increase that. If I have 3 magicka recovery glyphs I can stack up to 507 magicka recovery, which amounts to about 700 when taking those into consideration. By comparison 8 sturdy armor pieces will give 32% or 554 reduction.

Or simply change my build completely, go full meat shield and have to block far less. I've done my calculations and I can stack up to 68K health, with 12K stamina and 10K magicka (Green Pact, Plague Doctor and 2 monster sets that give health plus Lord Mundus), all sturdy full health glyphs - With 68K health and capped resistance I will also need to block less. I will adopt a lazier style where I do nothing but recast the buffs and debuffs when they expire. In that case I might not even use the DK, but the Warden since stamina return is not dependent on magicka or ult recovery.

Carbonised

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I do not see these changes to block cost being anything different than on Live server in terms of sustain, as long as you are heavy attacking you should be fine. Do not forget about when heavy attacking an offbalanced enemy you restore double the resources which you can do every 20 seconds.

There are also more than just 2 synergies that you can use. And maybe groups might be setting up for that now, that would be a nice change of pace instead of just throwing all of your points into penetration CP.

@Nifty2g That is correct except one thing . Heavy attacks cost time which is used for keeping buff/debuffs with higher uptime . I honestly have no idea how I am going to fit heavy attacks while keeping taunt , heroic slash , mountain blessing , blockade and engulfing flames uptime while using balance to keep my magicka up .

You really do not need to use blockade honestly, if you are heavy attacking you can keep crusher up just fine doing that. Heavy attacking does not take long at all, you shouldn't be losing downtimes.

Sustaining won't be that difficult if you roll the appropriate race and class for it, and we are end game players, running what is best in slot should not be an issue for anyone.

I agree these are straight nerfs and we keep getting tank nerfs because of PvP which is ridiculous but these nerfs aren't the end of the world, I kinda like these ones as it's going to make tanking a little harder.

I disagree with one point.

Tanks are getting nerfs not only because of PVP, rather also because they are capable of virtually if not entirely abandoning "tanking" sets for damage sets designed to boost group performance.

PVP is what people are whining about, but "tanks" running destro dps skills back bar is a microcosm of how far tanking has shifted.

Truth right there. when tanking is more about keeping up crusher enchants and increasing group DPS, then tanking isn't about tanking any more, and the actually tanking (staying alive) has become too trivial.

I for one like that a tank actually has to use more effort to stay alive and keep ressources, instead of focusing on group DPS. We already have healers pretty much focusing on increasing group DPS, we don't need a 3rd role also focusing on that.

I also think this is something that will force the "ceiling" to be lowered more towards the floor and the less elite and organised groups.

Tasear

SirCritical wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Good . Tanks can cry all they like it was out of control . Good job Wrobel .

This is a PvE thread . If a PvE tank killed you or you failed to kill them , I don't know what to say . If a PvP tank killed you , lol that's even worse ^^

Nifty2g wrote: »

If you are using a storm atro parse here, there is no reason why you wouldn't be able to sustain on that fight in this coming patch anyway. Nothing will change for that fight at all. Or any ranged fights for that matter where you are going to use blockade.

What buff uptime are you losing, a heavy attack takes 1 second, I don't understand what buff you are going to be losing.

Rakkhat Barrage . You will be blocking at least 10 hits back to back , which will consume at least 330 stamina , while using Absorb Magic . That's almost 10k stamina , just like that . Without having any time to actually debuff boss .

What about axes ? Will you drop block to heavy attack which will make you take several 5k hits in that small window ?

While tanking warrior , will you take the chance of getting knocked back to adds attack ? They are almost instant you know ...

I play with at least 120 ping and to be honest , I am not gonna do any of these unless I have to .

Anyway , I hope you are right . I really do .

Vaoh wrote: »

Why not balance PvP permablocking with Battlespirit nerfs? ....sigh

Because ZOS ^^

ZoS has stated many times they do not balance PVP and PVE separate so if you make a thread about blocking it involves both PVP and PVE . There are no PVE only threads on balance . You assume too much like I don't have a perma blocking tank that people can't kill without a Zerg . You are too emotional about the issue to see clearly and just make accusations . PVE is rediculous easy . If this change makes you walk away from tanking , it is you , not I that needs to L2P and GitGid lol .

If you'd be right, then Battle Spirit wouldn't exist at all. Stop spreading lies pls. This nerf is one of the worst, almost equal to stamregen nerf when blocking. I was really waiting for a thread like this from Liofa, and feared his math results. I'm very upset because of those numbers. Our guild completed vAA HM yesterday, for the first time. I was handling 5 axes. I dunno how this will be possible with this block cost increase. This was just an example. You know, these changes like this will widen the hatred between PvEers and PvPers. Let's state that this is a PvP oriented game, then we'll have the reason finally why we leave. This isn't true ofc, since I really like this game, but the infinite nerfs don't help in any balance.

It's possible to hold 8, and mages and boss.

Tasear

SirCritical wrote: »

How the hell could it be dangerous in PvE?! Which mob from yesterday's trial run are you, seriously, to complain?!

Chudan, warrior, mini monster on final boss in bloodroot.