PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

Doctordarkspawn

@Kessra pretty much hit the nail on the head. The people who do it will keep doing it but the people who are not allready in a raid guild? I dont see them looking at this gameplay and going "Boy howdy would I love to do this at a high stress level!"

And hey, I might have a temper but I try not to go off on people that dont deserve it. @Joy_Division I'm sorry, and the offer still stands. I like conversations. I like working with people. Hell, when I talk with the difficulty folks who are willing to share a vision of the game, we usually dont land that far apart.

Now if we could get ZOS to actually sit down and maybe work with us there might be a sunset for me to ride into. Like that's ever gonna happen.

retrokat

Considering that the huge wait-times for most players to do PUGs are due to lack of tanks, the fact that so many of us are likely to stop playing our tanks if this nerf goes ahead could be the final blow for the PUG system.

Qbiken

Carbonised wrote: »

HegemonIQ wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

"Tactically block" my tookus.

They want to please a PVP playerbase who the majority of content isn't produced for.

ADD THE COST INCREASE TO BATTLE SPIRIT. STOP SCREWING THE REST OF US.

Typing everything with caps doesn't change the fact that this was just as much about PvE as PvP. ZOS has noticed that tanks spend 10 % of their time tanking and 90 % of their time aiding group dps, putting buffs on raid group, putting debuffs on the boss. And they concluded that the actual tanking must be too trivial if a tank can spend his majority of time and ressources to boost group DPS. And they are right. It's a nice change that tanks actually have to worry more about tanking and less about being a group buff bot. It's not about PvP.

Careful what you wish for. If the intent of this change is to make tanks focus on tanking only, no group utility...then the same could be said for healers. Maybe they should worry more about healing and less about being a group utility buff bot.

Actually, maybe healers should focus more on healing and keeping people alive, instead of focusing most of their time on aiding group dps.

The only problem is that most difficult mechanics in vet dungs and vet trials here in ESO are one shots, and no amount of healing is helping with that, so that's an obstacle that will have to be dealt with before healing in itself becomes more important. There's also the fact that almost every DPS has a self heal skill or skills that don't require them to slow down DPSing at all.

The current meta has been warhorn rotation on healers and tank for ages, just maybe it would be interesting to break this meta, and have healers slot ults that focus more on group healing and shielding, and tanks slot ults that focus more on keeping themselves and the group alive.

Changing for the reason of changing is never a good thing. Just because one find a certain meta stale/boring doesn´t mean it´s un-balanced. Changing because something is un-balanced is another thing. I like the fact that a tank and a healer can do more than just being a meat-shield/punching-bag and a heal-bot. It adds diversity and more dynamic gameplay if you ask me.

MagicalSociety

Soon all Trials will be impossible because always a nerf for pve to make pvp more fair! Just take away cp, enchants and procs out of pvp and be done with it. Every update it’s a nerf and buff game for balance to pvp. It’s time for a change and maybe that is making pvp balanced for all and fixing pve, I wanna play my magplar again but pve destroyed all of them.

Carbonised

Qbiken wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

HegemonIQ wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

"Tactically block" my tookus.

They want to please a PVP playerbase who the majority of content isn't produced for.

ADD THE COST INCREASE TO BATTLE SPIRIT. STOP SCREWING THE REST OF US.

Typing everything with caps doesn't change the fact that this was just as much about PvE as PvP. ZOS has noticed that tanks spend 10 % of their time tanking and 90 % of their time aiding group dps, putting buffs on raid group, putting debuffs on the boss. And they concluded that the actual tanking must be too trivial if a tank can spend his majority of time and ressources to boost group DPS. And they are right. It's a nice change that tanks actually have to worry more about tanking and less about being a group buff bot. It's not about PvP.

Careful what you wish for. If the intent of this change is to make tanks focus on tanking only, no group utility...then the same could be said for healers. Maybe they should worry more about healing and less about being a group utility buff bot.

Actually, maybe healers should focus more on healing and keeping people alive, instead of focusing most of their time on aiding group dps.

The only problem is that most difficult mechanics in vet dungs and vet trials here in ESO are one shots, and no amount of healing is helping with that, so that's an obstacle that will have to be dealt with before healing in itself becomes more important. There's also the fact that almost every DPS has a self heal skill or skills that don't require them to slow down DPSing at all.

The current meta has been warhorn rotation on healers and tank for ages, just maybe it would be interesting to break this meta, and have healers slot ults that focus more on group healing and shielding, and tanks slot ults that focus more on keeping themselves and the group alive.

Changing for the reason of changing is never a good thing. Just because one find a certain meta stale/boring doesn´t mean it´s un-balanced. Changing because something is un-balanced is another thing. I like the fact that a tank and a healer can do more than just being a meat-shield/punching-bag and a heal-bot. It adds diversity and more dynamic gameplay if you ask me.

I usually play a DPS, but as a DK I have a tanking setup as well. I don't change my CP, and still tanking is a walk in the park. I only have to apply taunts, and then keep blocking. Ressources are easy to manage, between ultigen, potions, synergies and shards. When a DPS can change outfits and nothing else and tank vet DLC dungeons without breaking a sweat, then it's a sure sign that tanking isn't enough of a challenge.
When vet trial tanks are more concerned with Alkosh debuff on the boss, with crusher enchants on Torug's infused weapons and destro on back bar, then it's a sure sign that tanking is much too easy.

I agree that changing just for changing isn't a good thing, but I also agree that the actual tanking aspect of being a tank should be more of a challenge than it is now. We have to spec highly into the DPS role with specific setup for CP, gear and skill rotation, but any old guy can put on heavy armor and slot a taunt and tank 95 % of the content.

Preventing healers and tanks from focusing all their attention on group DPS and more on their specific role will also lower the ceiling towards the floor and prevent elite groups and guilds from dishing out DPS that's leagues above everyone else.

retrokat

Carbonised wrote: »

I agree that changing just for changing isn't a good thing, but I also agree that the actual tanking aspect of being a tank should be more of a challenge than it is now. We have to spec highly into the DPS role with specific setup for CP, gear and skill rotation, but any old guy can put on heavy armor and slot a taunt and tank 95 % of the content.

Preventing healers and tanks from focusing all their attention on group DPS and more on their specific role will also lower the ceiling towards the floor and prevent elite groups and guilds from dishing out DPS that's leagues above everyone else.

You want tanking to be *harder* and discourage 'any old guy' from putting on heavy armour and slotting a taunt to be a tank.. but there's already a huge shortage of PvE tanks. You rarely tank yourself, as you've said. But you want to make it MORE specialised, more boring and then expect that will make it more attractive as a role?

Doctordarkspawn

retrokat wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

I agree that changing just for changing isn't a good thing, but I also agree that the actual tanking aspect of being a tank should be more of a challenge than it is now. We have to spec highly into the DPS role with specific setup for CP, gear and skill rotation, but any old guy can put on heavy armor and slot a taunt and tank 95 % of the content.

Preventing healers and tanks from focusing all their attention on group DPS and more on their specific role will also lower the ceiling towards the floor and prevent elite groups and guilds from dishing out DPS that's leagues above everyone else.

You want tanking to be *harder* and discourage 'any old guy' from putting on heavy armour and slotting a taunt to be a tank.. but there's already a huge shortage of PvE tanks. You rarely tank yourself, as you've said. But you want to make it MORE specialised, more boring and then expect that will make it more attractive as a role?

He tends to not make sense alot.

He stated he wants tanks to support less. I ask why then the skill advisor system advises tanks to have at least one team support ability.

He hasn't given me an answer yet.

Asardes

I just did the math for my current tank setup:

48 CP in Shadow Ward, no sturdy, 3 shield play enchants, defensive posture slotted, fortress passive unlocked

Block cost on live is 483, pretty high, but I've lived with it for a long time, since I don't perma-block, or simply compensate in other ways, primarily high magicka recovery ~1.8-2.2K depending on gear (Atronach Mundus with divines on small pieces, Whichmother's Brew) and high ultimate recovery (minor heroism, heavy attack weave, ingenous shield, bloodspawn) and ultimate cost reduction (Akaviri Dragonguard). I could tank 5+ axes in vAA without flinching or running out of stamina. That setup allows me much more flexibility - ex. I have enough magicka to chain adds on my own at Twins or spam GDB at the Warrior.

Block cost on PTS for the same setup raises to 541, also pretty high, but only marginally higher than it used to be. I can live with it if I throw a bit more CP in Shadow Ward - if I put 100 CP in that star I end up with 495. If I swap out my Divines for Sturdy I end up with 455. If I do both I end up with 415. So I can actually lower my costs under what I have now, only losing about ~100 magicka recovery. So I will overcome.

Valencer

Carbonised wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

HegemonIQ wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

"Tactically block" my tookus.

They want to please a PVP playerbase who the majority of content isn't produced for.

ADD THE COST INCREASE TO BATTLE SPIRIT. STOP SCREWING THE REST OF US.

Typing everything with caps doesn't change the fact that this was just as much about PvE as PvP. ZOS has noticed that tanks spend 10 % of their time tanking and 90 % of their time aiding group dps, putting buffs on raid group, putting debuffs on the boss. And they concluded that the actual tanking must be too trivial if a tank can spend his majority of time and ressources to boost group DPS. And they are right. It's a nice change that tanks actually have to worry more about tanking and less about being a group buff bot. It's not about PvP.

Careful what you wish for. If the intent of this change is to make tanks focus on tanking only, no group utility...then the same could be said for healers. Maybe they should worry more about healing and less about being a group utility buff bot.

Actually, maybe healers should focus more on healing and keeping people alive, instead of focusing most of their time on aiding group dps.

The only problem is that most difficult mechanics in vet dungs and vet trials here in ESO are one shots, and no amount of healing is helping with that, so that's an obstacle that will have to be dealt with before healing in itself becomes more important. There's also the fact that almost every DPS has a self heal skill or skills that don't require them to slow down DPSing at all.

The current meta has been warhorn rotation on healers and tank for ages, just maybe it would be interesting to break this meta, and have healers slot ults that focus more on group healing and shielding, and tanks slot ults that focus more on keeping themselves and the group alive.

Changing for the reason of changing is never a good thing. Just because one find a certain meta stale/boring doesn´t mean it´s un-balanced. Changing because something is un-balanced is another thing. I like the fact that a tank and a healer can do more than just being a meat-shield/punching-bag and a heal-bot. It adds diversity and more dynamic gameplay if you ask me.

I usually play a DPS, but as a DK I have a tanking setup as well. I don't change my CP, and still tanking is a walk in the park. I only have to apply taunts, and then keep blocking. Ressources are easy to manage, between ultigen, potions, synergies and shards. When a DPS can change outfits and nothing else and tank vet DLC dungeons without breaking a sweat, then it's a sure sign that tanking isn't enough of a challenge.
When vet trial tanks are more concerned with Alkosh debuff on the boss, with crusher enchants on Torug's infused weapons and destro on back bar, then it's a sure sign that tanking is much too easy.

I agree that changing just for changing isn't a good thing, but I also agree that the actual tanking aspect of being a tank should be more of a challenge than it is now. We have to spec highly into the DPS role with specific setup for CP, gear and skill rotation, but any old guy can put on heavy armor and slot a taunt and tank 95 % of the content.

Preventing healers and tanks from focusing all their attention on group DPS and more on their specific role will also lower the ceiling towards the floor and prevent elite groups and guilds from dishing out DPS that's leagues above everyone else.

Good luck making healing up when youre on low health and pressing block when the boss does a heavy attack actually challenging.

Making the game boring for the sake of making it boring doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me.

Joy_Division

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

We have to distinguish 2 scenarios here: default single-target boss fights and multi-add tanking. On single-target fights, sustain shouldn't be an issue. Most of the bosses do their heavy attacks once every 2-4 seconds and leave enough room to throw in heavy attacks in between and debuff the boss. Sure, 30 sec CD on synergies is a factor which reduces the overall sustain, though I don't think that this will make tanking impossible, just a bit more challenging. You also don't need to be argonian or DK in general, though especially argonian DKs will probably be the easiest to sustain - especially if not familiar with tanking. The real change though comes on multi-add fights as they will deplete your stamina quickly if perma-blocking. CC control will thus get more important again. Gladly, not many trial-encounters deal with multiple mobs to tank at once.

A random group and I attempted the final boss of fang lair on vet hm yesterday evening and it was partly ridiculous how quickly these two bugs that the boss spawned next to you could deplete your stamina and make you a one-hit to the bosses scarab attack. I wasn't familiar with the tank-changes back than though this could explain it at least. Though the adds seem to drain stamina even without blocking and especially slowing you permanently which makes tanking this boss just not fun at all (though vet normal is actually quite well balanced). Even as an Argonian DK I couldn't keep up with the resources needed. Guess this fight will be fun for any other tanking class. I have to admit though, that this was just a random group without VoIP tool and not an optimal strategy which lets room for quite some more improvements.

Sure, Alkosh will probably lose its charme in trials, though still you need to use a synergy every 10 seconds (for 3 in total) to keep it up all the time, usually the timing though of trigger one of the synergies is the limiting part of it. Most, especially stamina based, DDs don't need Alkosh anymore which also lead to its replacement by Torugs Pact, which is way easier to upkeep, especially with infused weapons. This will still be a viable set for trial-tanking, for dungeon-tanking we have to see if, especially due to frequent multi-mob situations, sustain-sets are preferable, which I think might be the case as mobs here in general do not life long enough to justify the debuffing overhead.

I have tanked and beaten every HM boss (except for vAS+2; though will so probably starting next week or the week after, cleared vAS +1 in both constelations multiple times so far) and usually staying alive isn't an issue in general, also resource managment is just a matter of confidence and knowledge about the encounters as you know when you can replenish your resources by heavy attacking and when special care needs to be put onto your resource management. The only situation that kills a non-permablocking tank here are rare insta-hits that hit you before the animation on the mob actually starts (I call them perfectly animation canceled ^^), this somethimes happens in vAS for some unknown reason and usually right after his lightning-kite stuff. Trying to taunt everything in multi-mob situations and using all of your skills constantly will just deplete your resources quickly. There is just a typical, but understandable, hystery on the upcoming changes which for sure will affect the overall gameplay. Though instead of switching roles and crying on the changes, we should learn to adept and improve our gameplay.

What I'd like to see though is a dmg increase for tanks as compensation for their sustain-loss. It feels just not right to see damage dealers break 70k dps barriers and seeing my 3-4k dps in comparison. I'm aware that my role is not to deal damage but enable DDs to do their "job", though the gap is just way to large. If outside a dungeon I need like 30-40 seconds for some unimportant trash mob, while a DD kills it with one to two hits and also doesn't have an issue at surviving. Well, you can switch to DD gear than you might state, though I already have way to many sets in my inventory which is thus fully packed. This leads to a situation where I mainly play the tank in trials or dungeon as outside of these it is just a pain in the ***, though sadly I have been into random-dungeon-finder groups where I dealt almost 50% of the groups damage (with 4k dps -.-).

We've been adapting for ages.

Now, the only thing we'll be adapting for is PVP's latest temper tantrum.

I repeat: If it does not stop, PVE tanking will eventually hit a point where our ability to manage resources simply will not be able to keep up with the content. People like you who would like the heard to calm down wish ultimately harm upon this game, through indirect means.

Apathy is death. Besides. If we're going to get damage anyway as a result, why not just abolish tanking as an institution at that point? If we're all DPS anyway, why not stop pretending?

Either hold to the trinity, or remove the trinity. ZOS's dilly-dallying on that front hasn't helped the game either.

Every time block cost gets increased, threads like this one appear.

And every time tanks managed to figure out how to perma-block, in both PvE and PvP.

For all the talk about PvE and PvP, ZoS has been pretty consistent that they don't want tanks in PvE duct-taping the block key during dungeons and trial.

I'm not saying what ZoS did was right or will work, I am saying through ESO's history there have been a lot Chicken Little pronouncements how tanking is dead, when only the means have changed.

So now, this 5th time the cry of "Uncle" is the god's honest truth and ZoS totally boned tanks. OK, you may believe that, but there is a reason why other people, including ZoS, maybe a bit skeptical.

Does whole idea of enjoyable tanking require that you have to 100% hold down the right mouse button?

If you've seen anything I've posted on tanking, you'll know that I hate how tanking is right now @Joy_Division and you'll know that I long for a setup like say, a blood death knight from WoW. You'll know that I go out of my way to make templar tank builds based on healing. And you'll know one of the major reasons I hated morrowind, was because the sustain changes and class changes to Templar made that harder to the point of, the build is patheticly weak now.

You'll know that I've advocated tallent tree's and other customization options to make that style of play viable. What you might not know, is that I originally played Saptank pre imperial city. And almost completed the original raids on the original difficulty, we got to I think earth atro and got creamed due to lack of DPS. So believe me. I'd like nothing more than for tanking to evolve.

But at a raid level, the damage coming in is too big to be healed, and until that design changes, permablock is how it works at a raid level. So preserving how it works until we get changes to support other styles of play is the only course of action we really have. Believe me. I would give my left leg, to have a engaging form of tanking that is competative at the highest level.

And that's a gross overgeneralization. Did we cry it would break tanking when Bracing was released? No. We argued we didn't want Wrath and it wasn't condusive to PVE. We argued the block regen changes were not conducive to fun gameplay.

And right now, aside from me who postulates that -eventually- this will hit a point where it erodes the roll (And I think that will take a few more patche), the predominant concern is the fact this will drive further people attempting to tank away from the roll in a game where people are allready making threads about the lack of tanks. The endgame community is dwindling. It does not need kneecapped. (And before you leap to that defense, compared to what it was, it's dwindling.)

Joy, I love you, and you make some good points most of the time, but if you cant be bothered to pay attention then cobble some strawman from public perception instead of fact, you may as well not be here. This is seriously beneath you.

TLDR: I'm not arguing that, I'd like for tanking to evolve beyond what it is, but quite frankly the content needs to change to support that and if it wont, and the devs wont change it....rocking the boat is worth nothing.

You can take out your frustrations out on me all you want and say I don't belong here, but yelling at me and for ZoS to unnerf us because the changes are hurting the community does not have a good track record at all. Just look at the Morrowind update. The resource management was widely panned and here we are still heavy attacking away.

Some of us aren't tanking experts. That doesn't mean we need to be berated and told to leave because some of us want to know why the 4th time ZoS is nerfing blocking is the straw that broke the camels back. It's the first day after the PTS dropped; most of the people here yelling at ZoS probably haven't even downloaded the it. A lot of people here like to think the devs have no clue and they just change thing willy nilly, but they put a lot of thought and work into this. Why are they wrong and people posting in this thread right? It's a legit question.

But I can sense when my presence is unwelcome so I will do as you wish and bow out so people can carry on pleading ZoS to unnerf stuff.

Dont belong here? I'm more apt to call you out for outright lying about the positions of the people you choose to defame. It's not your opinion that I have an issue with, it's your complete, willfull misrepresentation of me and other people who have a horse in this race, and who've argued over the course of this games lifetime against one change or another. You lied about me. You implied I want permablock to stay, and you continue to use the same obfuscation tactic to imply I want people to leave who disagree with me.

@Joy_Division The only people wrong for posting in this thread are the people who deliberately lie about others, and the people who take a subjective assessment and use it as justification for broad, sweeping changes. If you have some sort of concrete mechanical reason or a plan for change, fine. A change you want to see. A way to add to a bossfight through mechanical changes in line with a plan for the game, that's absolutely great. This is a place to share idea's. But walking in and going 'ya'll crybabies' or 'it's easy lol shutup' isn't helpfull to anyone and isn't conducive to a actual discussion. Walking in and puting words in peoples mouth isn't much better.

If and when you feel like acknowledging that you lied and working with me on that, I'll be happy to have that conversation with you. Otherwise, this is the last response your gonna get, all the best to you. Have a nice day, and may your future discussions help the game.

You are getting aggressive. I'm not the person who laughed at you earlier in this thread.

I don't know your posting history and nothing I wrote was personally directed at you. I don't even know who you are. I'm not even justifying the changes. Did I call you a "crybaby" or say "it's easy lol shutup?" No I didn't.

But you are passionate and I can respect that so I apologize for wording my concerns in such a way that made it seem like you and others wanted to keep perma-blocking.

While i'm happy we've got that out of the way, I have to ask: Then why quote me? It was the direct quote, combined with the question that set me off, because I wondered where the hell you got that assumption from? And why walk into the thread, talking about how we're all over-reacting? The reason I specifically lump you in with that guy, is that attitude is no more helpfull that is. I was trying to draw that picture, it obviously went over someones head and I'm not sure who's.

If that wasn't the aim, why start out with it?

I quoted you because you have been very vocal and called out PvPers for having a "temper tantrum."

Not being a tank, I was genuinely curious why this patch is so different from the other times ZoS nerfed blocking.

Other posters have responded without attacking me.

That's all.

Doctordarkspawn

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

We have to distinguish 2 scenarios here: default single-target boss fights and multi-add tanking. On single-target fights, sustain shouldn't be an issue. Most of the bosses do their heavy attacks once every 2-4 seconds and leave enough room to throw in heavy attacks in between and debuff the boss. Sure, 30 sec CD on synergies is a factor which reduces the overall sustain, though I don't think that this will make tanking impossible, just a bit more challenging. You also don't need to be argonian or DK in general, though especially argonian DKs will probably be the easiest to sustain - especially if not familiar with tanking. The real change though comes on multi-add fights as they will deplete your stamina quickly if perma-blocking. CC control will thus get more important again. Gladly, not many trial-encounters deal with multiple mobs to tank at once.

A random group and I attempted the final boss of fang lair on vet hm yesterday evening and it was partly ridiculous how quickly these two bugs that the boss spawned next to you could deplete your stamina and make you a one-hit to the bosses scarab attack. I wasn't familiar with the tank-changes back than though this could explain it at least. Though the adds seem to drain stamina even without blocking and especially slowing you permanently which makes tanking this boss just not fun at all (though vet normal is actually quite well balanced). Even as an Argonian DK I couldn't keep up with the resources needed. Guess this fight will be fun for any other tanking class. I have to admit though, that this was just a random group without VoIP tool and not an optimal strategy which lets room for quite some more improvements.

Sure, Alkosh will probably lose its charme in trials, though still you need to use a synergy every 10 seconds (for 3 in total) to keep it up all the time, usually the timing though of trigger one of the synergies is the limiting part of it. Most, especially stamina based, DDs don't need Alkosh anymore which also lead to its replacement by Torugs Pact, which is way easier to upkeep, especially with infused weapons. This will still be a viable set for trial-tanking, for dungeon-tanking we have to see if, especially due to frequent multi-mob situations, sustain-sets are preferable, which I think might be the case as mobs here in general do not life long enough to justify the debuffing overhead.

I have tanked and beaten every HM boss (except for vAS+2; though will so probably starting next week or the week after, cleared vAS +1 in both constelations multiple times so far) and usually staying alive isn't an issue in general, also resource managment is just a matter of confidence and knowledge about the encounters as you know when you can replenish your resources by heavy attacking and when special care needs to be put onto your resource management. The only situation that kills a non-permablocking tank here are rare insta-hits that hit you before the animation on the mob actually starts (I call them perfectly animation canceled ^^), this somethimes happens in vAS for some unknown reason and usually right after his lightning-kite stuff. Trying to taunt everything in multi-mob situations and using all of your skills constantly will just deplete your resources quickly. There is just a typical, but understandable, hystery on the upcoming changes which for sure will affect the overall gameplay. Though instead of switching roles and crying on the changes, we should learn to adept and improve our gameplay.

What I'd like to see though is a dmg increase for tanks as compensation for their sustain-loss. It feels just not right to see damage dealers break 70k dps barriers and seeing my 3-4k dps in comparison. I'm aware that my role is not to deal damage but enable DDs to do their "job", though the gap is just way to large. If outside a dungeon I need like 30-40 seconds for some unimportant trash mob, while a DD kills it with one to two hits and also doesn't have an issue at surviving. Well, you can switch to DD gear than you might state, though I already have way to many sets in my inventory which is thus fully packed. This leads to a situation where I mainly play the tank in trials or dungeon as outside of these it is just a pain in the ***, though sadly I have been into random-dungeon-finder groups where I dealt almost 50% of the groups damage (with 4k dps -.-).

We've been adapting for ages.

Now, the only thing we'll be adapting for is PVP's latest temper tantrum.

I repeat: If it does not stop, PVE tanking will eventually hit a point where our ability to manage resources simply will not be able to keep up with the content. People like you who would like the heard to calm down wish ultimately harm upon this game, through indirect means.

Apathy is death. Besides. If we're going to get damage anyway as a result, why not just abolish tanking as an institution at that point? If we're all DPS anyway, why not stop pretending?

Either hold to the trinity, or remove the trinity. ZOS's dilly-dallying on that front hasn't helped the game either.

Every time block cost gets increased, threads like this one appear.

And every time tanks managed to figure out how to perma-block, in both PvE and PvP.

For all the talk about PvE and PvP, ZoS has been pretty consistent that they don't want tanks in PvE duct-taping the block key during dungeons and trial.

I'm not saying what ZoS did was right or will work, I am saying through ESO's history there have been a lot Chicken Little pronouncements how tanking is dead, when only the means have changed.

So now, this 5th time the cry of "Uncle" is the god's honest truth and ZoS totally boned tanks. OK, you may believe that, but there is a reason why other people, including ZoS, maybe a bit skeptical.

Does whole idea of enjoyable tanking require that you have to 100% hold down the right mouse button?

If you've seen anything I've posted on tanking, you'll know that I hate how tanking is right now @Joy_Division and you'll know that I long for a setup like say, a blood death knight from WoW. You'll know that I go out of my way to make templar tank builds based on healing. And you'll know one of the major reasons I hated morrowind, was because the sustain changes and class changes to Templar made that harder to the point of, the build is patheticly weak now.

You'll know that I've advocated tallent tree's and other customization options to make that style of play viable. What you might not know, is that I originally played Saptank pre imperial city. And almost completed the original raids on the original difficulty, we got to I think earth atro and got creamed due to lack of DPS. So believe me. I'd like nothing more than for tanking to evolve.

But at a raid level, the damage coming in is too big to be healed, and until that design changes, permablock is how it works at a raid level. So preserving how it works until we get changes to support other styles of play is the only course of action we really have. Believe me. I would give my left leg, to have a engaging form of tanking that is competative at the highest level.

And that's a gross overgeneralization. Did we cry it would break tanking when Bracing was released? No. We argued we didn't want Wrath and it wasn't condusive to PVE. We argued the block regen changes were not conducive to fun gameplay.

And right now, aside from me who postulates that -eventually- this will hit a point where it erodes the roll (And I think that will take a few more patche), the predominant concern is the fact this will drive further people attempting to tank away from the roll in a game where people are allready making threads about the lack of tanks. The endgame community is dwindling. It does not need kneecapped. (And before you leap to that defense, compared to what it was, it's dwindling.)

Joy, I love you, and you make some good points most of the time, but if you cant be bothered to pay attention then cobble some strawman from public perception instead of fact, you may as well not be here. This is seriously beneath you.

TLDR: I'm not arguing that, I'd like for tanking to evolve beyond what it is, but quite frankly the content needs to change to support that and if it wont, and the devs wont change it....rocking the boat is worth nothing.

You can take out your frustrations out on me all you want and say I don't belong here, but yelling at me and for ZoS to unnerf us because the changes are hurting the community does not have a good track record at all. Just look at the Morrowind update. The resource management was widely panned and here we are still heavy attacking away.

Some of us aren't tanking experts. That doesn't mean we need to be berated and told to leave because some of us want to know why the 4th time ZoS is nerfing blocking is the straw that broke the camels back. It's the first day after the PTS dropped; most of the people here yelling at ZoS probably haven't even downloaded the it. A lot of people here like to think the devs have no clue and they just change thing willy nilly, but they put a lot of thought and work into this. Why are they wrong and people posting in this thread right? It's a legit question.

But I can sense when my presence is unwelcome so I will do as you wish and bow out so people can carry on pleading ZoS to unnerf stuff.

Dont belong here? I'm more apt to call you out for outright lying about the positions of the people you choose to defame. It's not your opinion that I have an issue with, it's your complete, willfull misrepresentation of me and other people who have a horse in this race, and who've argued over the course of this games lifetime against one change or another. You lied about me. You implied I want permablock to stay, and you continue to use the same obfuscation tactic to imply I want people to leave who disagree with me.

@Joy_Division The only people wrong for posting in this thread are the people who deliberately lie about others, and the people who take a subjective assessment and use it as justification for broad, sweeping changes. If you have some sort of concrete mechanical reason or a plan for change, fine. A change you want to see. A way to add to a bossfight through mechanical changes in line with a plan for the game, that's absolutely great. This is a place to share idea's. But walking in and going 'ya'll crybabies' or 'it's easy lol shutup' isn't helpfull to anyone and isn't conducive to a actual discussion. Walking in and puting words in peoples mouth isn't much better.

If and when you feel like acknowledging that you lied and working with me on that, I'll be happy to have that conversation with you. Otherwise, this is the last response your gonna get, all the best to you. Have a nice day, and may your future discussions help the game.

You are getting aggressive. I'm not the person who laughed at you earlier in this thread.

I don't know your posting history and nothing I wrote was personally directed at you. I don't even know who you are. I'm not even justifying the changes. Did I call you a "crybaby" or say "it's easy lol shutup?" No I didn't.

But you are passionate and I can respect that so I apologize for wording my concerns in such a way that made it seem like you and others wanted to keep perma-blocking.

While i'm happy we've got that out of the way, I have to ask: Then why quote me? It was the direct quote, combined with the question that set me off, because I wondered where the hell you got that assumption from? And why walk into the thread, talking about how we're all over-reacting? The reason I specifically lump you in with that guy, is that attitude is no more helpfull that is. I was trying to draw that picture, it obviously went over someones head and I'm not sure who's.

If that wasn't the aim, why start out with it?

I quoted you because you have been very vocal and called out PvPers for having a "temper tantrum."

Not being a tank, I was genuinely curious why this patch is so different from the other times ZoS nerfed blocking.

Other posters have responded without attacking me.

That's all.

And they usually do, and it usually affects PVP for the worse. The PVP permablocking hate has caused more tank changes than anything else.

Thing about this patch? Is most of the other changes had something given as far as gear to mitigate it. Yes, bracing was lost. They let Sturdy become a block cost reductor to soften the blow. Almost all the other things were limiting gear options.

This is the first time they've targeted the forumla allowing tanks to take multiple hits, drastically reducing the ammount of pressure they can take without first altering the content to ease up on that pressure. It hits Tanks in a spot they were allready sore at, because while Constitution is there to stem the tide, tanks have never been able to take consectuive hits well without resources.

It's like pouring gasoline on a tire fire. They take a spot tanks are allready bad at, and crank up the difficulty. Who does this serve? PVP. To get rid of the permablock problem. Ignoring the fact tanks will become unkillable through other means, and leaving PVE broken in it's wake for no progress on a PVP front whatsoever.

Meanwhile, in a trial environment, most raid bosses of note use rapid blows to wear down tanks exaserbating this problem in PVE, and pushing further new tanks away from the roll.

Annnnnd anyone who's followed most of the tank nerfs would know this. This is inherently a different beast then when gear takes a hit. Which is why I have an issue with those not educated on this issue giving they're two cents. You dont need to tank trials to have a opinion, but an uninformed opinion is just -noise-.

Weps

What about increasing the cost reduction the jewelry enchants grant up to a more reasonable 350?
This way you will make these changes more tolerable without making adapting too damaging for the group.

The problem I have with these changes is not that they corner the role to a couple of classes and races, is the fact that removes the fun and useful side of tanking turning it into a uber boring punchball playstyle.

Make it harder, make it more challenging, just don't change it completely otherwise we enter the vicious "why nerf me without nerfing them" cycle.

Nolic1

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

retrokat wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

I agree that changing just for changing isn't a good thing, but I also agree that the actual tanking aspect of being a tank should be more of a challenge than it is now. We have to spec highly into the DPS role with specific setup for CP, gear and skill rotation, but any old guy can put on heavy armor and slot a taunt and tank 95 % of the content.

Preventing healers and tanks from focusing all their attention on group DPS and more on their specific role will also lower the ceiling towards the floor and prevent elite groups and guilds from dishing out DPS that's leagues above everyone else.

You want tanking to be *harder* and discourage 'any old guy' from putting on heavy armour and slotting a taunt to be a tank.. but there's already a huge shortage of PvE tanks. You rarely tank yourself, as you've said. But you want to make it MORE specialised, more boring and then expect that will make it more attractive as a role?

He tends to not make sense alot.

He stated he wants tanks to support less. I ask why then the skill advisor system advises tanks to have at least one team support ability.

He hasn't given me an answer yet.

The skill advisor is to help players in guiding them to the to role not to hand hold them to the meta. The options in skills it offers is the ones that are ease of use nothing more. Just cause most offer Warhorn as a last skill on the list of option is to help guide them to skills that starter tanks should run in the game to help guide them. So just cause one skill is group support means nothing there are alot of dps options for some classes not all that offer some kind of group support as well in the skill offering and most of the healer ones do not even have warhorn as part of the skills for them.

Now I am not saying a tank can not use some support for the group they are the groups leader in most if not always cause they lead the group through the content have to know mechanic and things to call out so other know when to watch out for things. But here is the elephant in the room the is not just a PvP issue it is a PvE issue as well cause as many of you have stated not just here but this has always been the way or best strategy used in the meta. Well see because this is the only strategy being used it leaves no other strategies being learned and or used by the main stream cause its the only one known anywhere. The reason for this is most people look up ways to beat content and are hand held right to the meta strategy nothing else and being a Youtuber and content provider I am as much to blame as any of the other who offer guides to these runs cause we only show one way to complete the content and this leads to the one size fits all meta strategies many of us use.

Now before you say well that is cause its the best or only way I ask this how do you know have you tried others?

Carbonised

retrokat wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

I agree that changing just for changing isn't a good thing, but I also agree that the actual tanking aspect of being a tank should be more of a challenge than it is now. We have to spec highly into the DPS role with specific setup for CP, gear and skill rotation, but any old guy can put on heavy armor and slot a taunt and tank 95 % of the content.

Preventing healers and tanks from focusing all their attention on group DPS and more on their specific role will also lower the ceiling towards the floor and prevent elite groups and guilds from dishing out DPS that's leagues above everyone else.

You want tanking to be *harder* and discourage 'any old guy' from putting on heavy armour and slotting a taunt to be a tank.. but there's already a huge shortage of PvE tanks. You rarely tank yourself, as you've said. But you want to make it MORE specialised, more boring and then expect that will make it more attractive as a role?

Well, misunderstand me correctly =p

As you can see from the post by Asardes, this current 'nerf' is really trivial. For most setups it's a slight increase in block cost. For someone not completely married to block reduction, it will actually be a slight block cost reduction. On my own tank setup I'm assuming my block cost will be exactly the same or slightly lower, since I'm not completely spec'ed for blocking.

So, this doom and gloom that's bannered by doctordarkspawn is in fact incorrect. For the most part, tanking vet dungeons will be exactly the same as before. So I don't imagine it's going to in any way change the amount of tanks available in for instance the dungeon finder. The main reason why I'm not tanking that often is because they ruined my old tank setup by locking evasion behind medium armor, and thereby forcing me to decon my Tava set. I have't found a replacement yet since I was waiting for the current patch and the mentioned block changes.

Summing up: This patch will not be the end all for tanks. For some it will be a slight block cost increase, and blocking bosses was already peanuts in the vast majority of cases. It will not make tanking more boring in any case, but it will be an opportunity for tanks to specialise more in their tanking business, as much as a DPS is forced to be highly specialised in both gear, skills, CP points and rotation, in order to maximise their DPS potential.

Edit, RE doktordarkspawn, I don't owe you any answers. You've proven yourself somewhat of a bully when people don't agree with your opinions, and thus I have removed myself from discussing with you, as has Joy_Division and others. So you can keep demanding answers, but I wouldn't recommend you hold your breath.

retrokat

Carbonised wrote: »

Well, misunderstand me correctly =p

Summing up: This patch will not be the end all for tanks. For some it will be a slight block cost increase, and blocking bosses was already peanuts in the vast majority of cases. It will not make tanking more boring in any case, but it will be an opportunity for tanks to specialise more in their tanking business, as much as a DPS is forced to be highly specialised in both gear, skills, CP points and rotation, in order to maximise their DPS potential.

I would suggest that the default game is for DPS - yes, you can maximise your potential by sets, allocation of points etc, but you can play all the PvE content without doing that. If you "specialise" in tanking to the extent you suggest should be required, you can't use the alt questing etc. One of the *many* reasons that the vast majority of characters in the game are DPS.

Out of my 9 capped alts, 3 are tanks, as often that's what's needed in a dungeon. I'm no min-maxer, but I've put a lot of effort into them all having Ebon and Alkosh so I can help the team. But I also like to be able to quest in them. I guess I'm one of the casual tanks aka 'any old guy' - butI don't want to just be a punching bag, and with even less synergies coming my way I think it's time to give up on tanking. You say it's super-easy to tank - anyone can do it easily as it is - but don't do it because the set you used got nerfed? And what if your single played alt wasn't a DK?

I'll give it a go on PTS when the EU alts get transferred across, but less synergies and higher block cost sure sounds like it won't make my job more fun.

And as I've said a number of times now - why are there so few tanks? You think this will help? I think it needs to be made *more* accessible in PvE - not nerfed because of a PvP-only issue.

Asardes

Alkosh has been partially killed by making the Shards and Orbs synergy the same. Also it was bugged for a long time after Morrowind. So it was far from "BiS" even before the upcoming patch. For both stamina and magicka DDs almost full penetration is achievable even without Alkosh if they invest CP in Piercing & Spell Erosion respectively. Torug's Pact is much more reliable in applying debuffs and it's craftable, meaning you don't need to farm MoL endlessly. Also, Alkosh has 3/4 useless bonuses for a tank, while Torug's only has 1. So I see no reason why someone will farm that on purpose. Also it's a bad set for DDs, since hitting all synergies will break rotation quite often, but with higher cooldown it could become useful in the original purpose

Bevik

What's wrong with using the S&B ulti? Dead cheap, gives you 6 seconds window to perform a heavy attack and fill up the stamina.

I don't think anyone would have a problem tanking anything unless going for some world #1 whatever.

retrokat

I'm not a minmaxer and not about to abandon sets I've invested gold tempers in because they're not BiS.

Weps

Bevik wrote: »

What's wrong with using the S&B ulti? Dead cheap, gives you 6 seconds window to perform a heavy attack and fill up the stamina.

I don't think anyone would have a problem tanking anything unless going for some world #1 whatever.

It's too selfish, it doesn't help the group.
And in the "selfish" ultimate department, is not even that great.
Magma Shell is much metter in any single aspect, gives you more resources and turns you into a God for 20 seconds

techprince

Weps wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

What's wrong with using the S&B ulti? Dead cheap, gives you 6 seconds window to perform a heavy attack and fill up the stamina.

I don't think anyone would have a problem tanking anything unless going for some world #1 whatever.

It's too selfish, it doesn't help the group.
And in the "selfish" ultimate department, is not even that great.
Magma Shell is much metter in any single aspect, gives you more resources and turns you into a God for 20 seconds

*10 seconds.

Bevik

Weps wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

What's wrong with using the S&B ulti? Dead cheap, gives you 6 seconds window to perform a heavy attack and fill up the stamina.

I don't think anyone would have a problem tanking anything unless going for some world #1 whatever.

It's too selfish, it doesn't help the group.
And in the "selfish" ultimate department, is not even that great.
Magma Shell is much metter in any single aspect, gives you more resources and turns you into a God for 20 seconds

Only if you are a DK tank. Also it doesn't make your stamina skills as cheap as nothing if you choose that morph. And 100 Ulti vs 200 Ulti. You can still use Aggressive Horn then build up the Ultimate for the S&B Ulti pretty quick especially with Blood Spawn.

Doctordarkspawn

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

retrokat wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

I agree that changing just for changing isn't a good thing, but I also agree that the actual tanking aspect of being a tank should be more of a challenge than it is now. We have to spec highly into the DPS role with specific setup for CP, gear and skill rotation, but any old guy can put on heavy armor and slot a taunt and tank 95 % of the content.

Preventing healers and tanks from focusing all their attention on group DPS and more on their specific role will also lower the ceiling towards the floor and prevent elite groups and guilds from dishing out DPS that's leagues above everyone else.

You want tanking to be *harder* and discourage 'any old guy' from putting on heavy armour and slotting a taunt to be a tank.. but there's already a huge shortage of PvE tanks. You rarely tank yourself, as you've said. But you want to make it MORE specialised, more boring and then expect that will make it more attractive as a role?

He tends to not make sense alot.

He stated he wants tanks to support less. I ask why then the skill advisor system advises tanks to have at least one team support ability.

He hasn't given me an answer yet.

The skill advisor is to help players in guiding them to the to role not to hand hold them to the meta. The options in skills it offers is the ones that are ease of use nothing more. Just cause most offer Warhorn as a last skill on the list of option is to help guide them to skills that starter tanks should run in the game to help guide them. So just cause one skill is group support means nothing there are alot of dps options for some classes not all that offer some kind of group support as well in the skill offering and most of the healer ones do not even have warhorn as part of the skills for them.

Now I am not saying a tank can not use some support for the group they are the groups leader in most if not always cause they lead the group through the content have to know mechanic and things to call out so other know when to watch out for things. But here is the elephant in the room the is not just a PvP issue it is a PvE issue as well cause as many of you have stated not just here but this has always been the way or best strategy used in the meta. Well see because this is the only strategy being used it leaves no other strategies being learned and or used by the main stream cause its the only one known anywhere. The reason for this is most people look up ways to beat content and are hand held right to the meta strategy nothing else and being a Youtuber and content provider I am as much to blame as any of the other who offer guides to these runs cause we only show one way to complete the content and this leads to the one size fits all meta strategies many of us use.

Now before you say well that is cause its the best or only way I ask this how do you know have you tried others?

@Nolic1

I have tried other strategies. I've been fighting for the longest time for healtanks to become viable. I've been running that sort of tank since before Imperial city. I ran a Nightblade healtank, then a templar healtank.

Both got the screws put to them with almost every patch.

The problem is other means are not viable. Sorry bud, the reason other builds dont work is because the design is like a constrictor. Nothing else -works-. It's why the Meta is held to so ironclad in this game, and these changes only exaserbate this.

If people were truely able to run what they want in this game, you wouldn't be seeing the cult of personality, as much as I hate it. It's necessary.

You seem to be under the impression we have more choice than we do. We dont. Time and again, I've tried to make other setups work. And the game makes changes to deliberately erode them, because they're 'too powerfull'. Diversity of loadout and playstyle isn't going to happen until the current dev team is removed. Simple as that, mate. Might wanna drop the pipe dreams until then.

I love what I keep seeing, in people like you. People who are so clueless to the state of the game that they genuinely ask these questions. Well, here's the cold dose of reality. Me, laughing in your face. Tank diversity hasn't existed since Tamriel Unlimited, and that's a fact.

Liofa

First of all , I want to thank everyone for their comments , most are extremely constructive and helpful . I want to say a few more things . I did another dungeon run today in PTS with full block cost reduction setup , including jewelry . Here is my setup :

5 Ebon Armory , 5 Alkosh (1h/s + Ice Staff) , 2 Lord Warden . All Heavy , all Sturdy , All Tri-Stat enchants . Imperial , Lord Mundus . Tri-Stat Food . The difference between my first test is using Shield-Play enchants instead of Magicka Recovery ones .

Skill setup :

1h/s Bar :

1- Pierce Armor
2- Heroic Slash
3- Igneous Shield
4- Balance
5- Green Dragon Blood
Ulti- Magma Shell

Ice Staff (do NOT get the Tri Focus passive) Bar :

1- Engulfing Flames
2- Unrelenting Grip
3- Inner Rage
4- Choking Talons
5- Elemental Blockade
Ulti- Aggressive Horn

I must say , even though Shield-Play enchants are extremely diminished in the new calculation , they still make a noticable difference .

I am not sure how Magicka Recovery setups would hold up against perma-block situations but Equilibrium builds will have no hard time for sure . As I said in the first comment of this thread , Shield-Play enchants definitely wins in any fight you block for long time .

So yeah , just throw on full block cost reduction and you can still permablock through everything in pretty much every PvE fight . Incredibly easy if you are a Equilibrium DK . I haven't get the chance to test other classes yet but when I do , I'll post results in this thread even though I don't really see a reason to do . Looking at Patch Notes , the gap between DK and other classes in terms of tanking is huge . From basic theorycrafting and experience , DK is basically the perfect tank . It has absolutely no flaws . Perfect sustain , perfect tankiness , perfect group support . Especially with the Off Balance changes , DK tanks are far ahead of others because they have Engulfing Flames . Almost every Magicka DD will be switching to Flame Blockade . 10% flame damage increase on target is an absolutely crazy buff for your team , especially for Magicka NBs which probably will have the highest damage output of all classes next patch , maybe a bit behind StamNBs . Not really a DPS player but no need to be a genius to understand that these changes destroys Stamina DDs who are highly dependant on Heavy Attacks ^^ If Off Balance changes stay , I will be putting my Warden on hold and switching to DK just because of this reason .

Just a few thoughts about Alkosh , do not use it in 4 man content . It is complete trash after synergy changes . You will be very lucky if you can get 50% uptime with a non-Warden healer , assuming you are the only Alkosh user that is . It might be viable in trials though , sadly cannot test due to several teammates having problems with connecting to the PTS .

To sum up , changes have almost no effect on the good old Equilibrium DK but highly noticable on almost every other class , keep in mind that this doesn't mean it makes tanking impossible on other classes . Even though I do not like these changes , as many others in this thread suggested , you can throw heavy attacks , switch to Argonian , simply roll a DK etc. and still be able to permablock if you need to ^^ Hope this will be helpful to fellow tank friends

Doctordarkspawn

Liofa wrote: »

First of all , I want to thank everyone for their comments , most are extremely constructive and helpful . I want to say a few more things . I did another dungeon run today in PTS with full block cost reduction setup , including jewelry . Here is my setup :

5 Ebon Armory , 5 Alkosh (1h/s + Ice Staff) , 2 Lord Warden . All Heavy , all Sturdy , All Tri-Stat enchants . Imperial , Lord Mundus . Tri-Stat Food . The difference between my first test is using Shield-Play enchants instead of Magicka Recovery ones .

Skill setup :

1h/s Bar :

1- Pierce Armor
2- Heroic Slash
3- Igneous Shield
4- Balance
5- Green Dragon Blood
Ulti- Magma Shell

Ice Staff (do NOT get the Tri Focus passive) Bar :

1- Engulfing Flames
2- Unrelenting Grip
3- Inner Rage
4- Choking Talons
5- Elemental Blockade
Ulti- Aggressive Horn

I must say , even though Shield-Play enchants are extremely diminished in the new calculation , they still make a noticable difference .

I am not sure how Magicka Recovery setups would hold up against perma-block situations but Equilibrium builds will have no hard time for sure . As I said in the first comment of this thread , Shield-Play enchants definitely wins in any fight you block for long time .

So yeah , just throw on full block cost reduction and you can still permablock through everything in pretty much every PvE fight . Incredibly easy if you are a Equilibrium DK . I haven't get the chance to test other classes yet but when I do , I'll post results in this thread even though I don't really see a reason to do . Looking at Patch Notes , the gap between DK and other classes in terms of tanking is huge . From basic theorycrafting and experience , DK is basically the perfect tank . It has absolutely no flaws . Perfect sustain , perfect tankiness , perfect group support . Especially with the Off Balance changes , DK tanks are far ahead of others because they have Engulfing Flames . Almost every Magicka DD will be switching to Flame Blockade . 10% flame damage increase on target is an absolutely crazy buff for your team , especially for Magicka NBs which probably will have the highest damage output of all classes next patch , maybe a bit behind StamNBs . Not really a DPS player but no need to be a genius to understand that these changes destroys Stamina DDs who are highly dependant on Heavy Attacks ^^ If Off Balance changes stay , I will be putting my Warden on hold and switching to DK just because of this reason .

Just a few thoughts about Alkosh , do not use it in 4 man content . It is complete trash after synergy changes . You will be very lucky if you can get 50% uptime with a non-Warden healer , assuming you are the only Alkosh user that is . It might be viable in trials though , sadly cannot test due to several teammates having problems with connecting to the PTS .

To sum up , changes have almost no effect on the good old Equilibrium DK but highly noticable on almost every other class , keep in mind that this doesn't mean it makes tanking impossible on other classes . Even though I do not like these changes , as many others in this thread suggested , you can throw heavy attacks , switch to Argonian , simply roll a DK etc. and still be able to permablock if you need to ^^ Hope this will be helpful to fellow tank friends

So in other words, DK will be fine, other classes will no longer be viable picks for the roll.

Which runs contrary to they're stated goal of making all classes able to do all rolls.

Why am I not suprised?

Nolic1

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

retrokat wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

I agree that changing just for changing isn't a good thing, but I also agree that the actual tanking aspect of being a tank should be more of a challenge than it is now. We have to spec highly into the DPS role with specific setup for CP, gear and skill rotation, but any old guy can put on heavy armor and slot a taunt and tank 95 % of the content.

Preventing healers and tanks from focusing all their attention on group DPS and more on their specific role will also lower the ceiling towards the floor and prevent elite groups and guilds from dishing out DPS that's leagues above everyone else.

You want tanking to be *harder* and discourage 'any old guy' from putting on heavy armour and slotting a taunt to be a tank.. but there's already a huge shortage of PvE tanks. You rarely tank yourself, as you've said. But you want to make it MORE specialised, more boring and then expect that will make it more attractive as a role?

He tends to not make sense alot.

He stated he wants tanks to support less. I ask why then the skill advisor system advises tanks to have at least one team support ability.

He hasn't given me an answer yet.

The skill advisor is to help players in guiding them to the to role not to hand hold them to the meta. The options in skills it offers is the ones that are ease of use nothing more. Just cause most offer Warhorn as a last skill on the list of option is to help guide them to skills that starter tanks should run in the game to help guide them. So just cause one skill is group support means nothing there are alot of dps options for some classes not all that offer some kind of group support as well in the skill offering and most of the healer ones do not even have warhorn as part of the skills for them.

Now I am not saying a tank can not use some support for the group they are the groups leader in most if not always cause they lead the group through the content have to know mechanic and things to call out so other know when to watch out for things. But here is the elephant in the room the is not just a PvP issue it is a PvE issue as well cause as many of you have stated not just here but this has always been the way or best strategy used in the meta. Well see because this is the only strategy being used it leaves no other strategies being learned and or used by the main stream cause its the only one known anywhere. The reason for this is most people look up ways to beat content and are hand held right to the meta strategy nothing else and being a Youtuber and content provider I am as much to blame as any of the other who offer guides to these runs cause we only show one way to complete the content and this leads to the one size fits all meta strategies many of us use.

Now before you say well that is cause its the best or only way I ask this how do you know have you tried others?

@Nolic1

I have tried other strategies. I've been fighting for the longest time for healtanks to become viable.

The problem is other means are not viable. Sorry bud, the reason other builds dont work is because the design is like a constrictor. Nothing else -works-. It's why the Meta is held to so ironclad in this game, and these changes only exaserbate this.

If people were truely able to run what they want in this game, you wouldn't be seeing the cult of personality, as much as I hate it. It's necessary.

You seem to be under the impression we have more choice than we do. We dont.

Heal tanks are alot of fun I agree and can be a blast to play to bad they do not fit into the meta though. As for your other statements I am sorry I do not believe there are no other ways to beat the content then the meta that the game currently has because I have tanked to many things with a 2-handed tank I was told does not work.

Doctordarkspawn

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

retrokat wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

I agree that changing just for changing isn't a good thing, but I also agree that the actual tanking aspect of being a tank should be more of a challenge than it is now. We have to spec highly into the DPS role with specific setup for CP, gear and skill rotation, but any old guy can put on heavy armor and slot a taunt and tank 95 % of the content.

Preventing healers and tanks from focusing all their attention on group DPS and more on their specific role will also lower the ceiling towards the floor and prevent elite groups and guilds from dishing out DPS that's leagues above everyone else.

You want tanking to be *harder* and discourage 'any old guy' from putting on heavy armour and slotting a taunt to be a tank.. but there's already a huge shortage of PvE tanks. You rarely tank yourself, as you've said. But you want to make it MORE specialised, more boring and then expect that will make it more attractive as a role?

He tends to not make sense alot.

He stated he wants tanks to support less. I ask why then the skill advisor system advises tanks to have at least one team support ability.

He hasn't given me an answer yet.

The skill advisor is to help players in guiding them to the to role not to hand hold them to the meta. The options in skills it offers is the ones that are ease of use nothing more. Just cause most offer Warhorn as a last skill on the list of option is to help guide them to skills that starter tanks should run in the game to help guide them. So just cause one skill is group support means nothing there are alot of dps options for some classes not all that offer some kind of group support as well in the skill offering and most of the healer ones do not even have warhorn as part of the skills for them.

Now I am not saying a tank can not use some support for the group they are the groups leader in most if not always cause they lead the group through the content have to know mechanic and things to call out so other know when to watch out for things. But here is the elephant in the room the is not just a PvP issue it is a PvE issue as well cause as many of you have stated not just here but this has always been the way or best strategy used in the meta. Well see because this is the only strategy being used it leaves no other strategies being learned and or used by the main stream cause its the only one known anywhere. The reason for this is most people look up ways to beat content and are hand held right to the meta strategy nothing else and being a Youtuber and content provider I am as much to blame as any of the other who offer guides to these runs cause we only show one way to complete the content and this leads to the one size fits all meta strategies many of us use.

Now before you say well that is cause its the best or only way I ask this how do you know have you tried others?

@Nolic1

I have tried other strategies. I've been fighting for the longest time for healtanks to become viable.

The problem is other means are not viable. Sorry bud, the reason other builds dont work is because the design is like a constrictor. Nothing else -works-. It's why the Meta is held to so ironclad in this game, and these changes only exaserbate this.

If people were truely able to run what they want in this game, you wouldn't be seeing the cult of personality, as much as I hate it. It's necessary.

You seem to be under the impression we have more choice than we do. We dont.

Heal tanks are alot of fun I agree and can be a blast to play to bad they do not fit into the meta though. As for your other statements I am sorry I do not believe there are no other ways to beat the content then the meta that the game currently has because I have tanked to many things with a 2-handed tank I was told does not work.

If you've beaten a vet trial, with a two-handed tank, you've either got hax, or you didn't do it. Like, period. No group could make, or would want to, that stupidity work.

If you've beat vet dungeons, depends on the dungeon. Your healer likely carried you.

Eitherway. You likely play on a low enough difficulty level that you can entertain these delusions, but that's all they are bud. Delusions. Get with the program.

Morgul667

Liofa wrote: »

First of all , I want to thank everyone for their comments , most are extremely constructive and helpful . I want to say a few more things . I did another dungeon run today in PTS with full block cost reduction setup , including jewelry . Here is my setup :

5 Ebon Armory , 5 Alkosh (1h/s + Ice Staff) , 2 Lord Warden . All Heavy , all Sturdy , All Tri-Stat enchants . Imperial , Lord Mundus . Tri-Stat Food . The difference between my first test is using Shield-Play enchants instead of Magicka Recovery ones .

Skill setup :

1h/s Bar :

1- Pierce Armor
2- Heroic Slash
3- Igneous Shield
4- Balance
5- Green Dragon Blood
Ulti- Magma Shell

Ice Staff (do NOT get the Tri Focus passive) Bar :

1- Engulfing Flames
2- Unrelenting Grip
3- Inner Rage
4- Choking Talons
5- Elemental Blockade
Ulti- Aggressive Horn

I must say , even though Shield-Play enchants are extremely diminished in the new calculation , they still make a noticable difference .

I am not sure how Magicka Recovery setups would hold up against perma-block situations but Equilibrium builds will have no hard time for sure . As I said in the first comment of this thread , Shield-Play enchants definitely wins in any fight you block for long time .

So yeah , just throw on full block cost reduction and you can still permablock through everything in pretty much every PvE fight . Incredibly easy if you are a Equilibrium DK . I haven't get the chance to test other classes yet but when I do , I'll post results in this thread even though I don't really see a reason to do . Looking at Patch Notes , the gap between DK and other classes in terms of tanking is huge . From basic theorycrafting and experience , DK is basically the perfect tank . It has absolutely no flaws . Perfect sustain , perfect tankiness , perfect group support . Especially with the Off Balance changes , DK tanks are far ahead of others because they have Engulfing Flames . Almost every Magicka DD will be switching to Flame Blockade . 10% flame damage increase on target is an absolutely crazy buff for your team , especially for Magicka NBs which probably will have the highest damage output of all classes next patch , maybe a bit behind StamNBs . Not really a DPS player but no need to be a genius to understand that these changes destroys Stamina DDs who are highly dependant on Heavy Attacks ^^ If Off Balance changes stay , I will be putting my Warden on hold and switching to DK just because of this reason .

Just a few thoughts about Alkosh , do not use it in 4 man content . It is complete trash after synergy changes . You will be very lucky if you can get 50% uptime with a non-Warden healer , assuming you are the only Alkosh user that is . It might be viable in trials though , sadly cannot test due to several teammates having problems with connecting to the PTS .

To sum up , changes have almost no effect on the good old Equilibrium DK but highly noticable on almost every other class , keep in mind that this doesn't mean it makes tanking impossible on other classes . Even though I do not like these changes , as many others in this thread suggested , you can throw heavy attacks , switch to Argonian , simply roll a DK etc. and still be able to permablock if you need to ^^ Hope this will be helpful to fellow tank friends

That is interesting thanks for the feedback

However it is sad to see we are locked behind the meta once more

Also sad to see alkosh uptime diminished due to synergy change, I would vouch for increase synergy importance, not reduce it

Liofa

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

So in other words, DK will be fine, other classes will no longer be viable picks for the roll.

Which runs contrary to they're stated goal of making all classes able to do all rolls.

Why am I not suprised?

Yes , exactly . I would understand if Engulfing Flames wouldn't be such an important buff . It would be better if DK got the best sustain but some other class could get the highest DPS boost so there would be a trade-off but DK has literally everything that is needed and much more while other classes can be rated as ''meh'' at best

Morgul667 wrote: »

That is interesting thanks for the feedback

However it is sad to see we are locked behind the meta once more

Also sad to see alkosh uptime diminished due to synergy change, I would vouch for increase synergy importance, not reduce it

Alkosh is sadly even worse on a tank than it is now . I was thinking about it today , it looks like they want a DD to run it . What makes me think like that is this change right here :

Removed Synergies from the global cooldown, and they can now be activated while using other abilities.

That means , you can use Synergies without breaking your rotation , applying a huge debuff on enemies while gaining resources due to Undaunted passive . Also as we know , orbs tend to go through DDs first before they can be activated by tanks , which makes Alkosh look really good on a DD . I am not sure about Alkosh on trial environment yet if used by both tanks , it will be worse compared to how it is now though , that's for sure . Synergy cooldown increase is just really really bad .

Nolic1

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

retrokat wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

I agree that changing just for changing isn't a good thing, but I also agree that the actual tanking aspect of being a tank should be more of a challenge than it is now. We have to spec highly into the DPS role with specific setup for CP, gear and skill rotation, but any old guy can put on heavy armor and slot a taunt and tank 95 % of the content.

Preventing healers and tanks from focusing all their attention on group DPS and more on their specific role will also lower the ceiling towards the floor and prevent elite groups and guilds from dishing out DPS that's leagues above everyone else.

You want tanking to be *harder* and discourage 'any old guy' from putting on heavy armour and slotting a taunt to be a tank.. but there's already a huge shortage of PvE tanks. You rarely tank yourself, as you've said. But you want to make it MORE specialised, more boring and then expect that will make it more attractive as a role?

He tends to not make sense alot.

He stated he wants tanks to support less. I ask why then the skill advisor system advises tanks to have at least one team support ability.

He hasn't given me an answer yet.

The skill advisor is to help players in guiding them to the to role not to hand hold them to the meta. The options in skills it offers is the ones that are ease of use nothing more. Just cause most offer Warhorn as a last skill on the list of option is to help guide them to skills that starter tanks should run in the game to help guide them. So just cause one skill is group support means nothing there are alot of dps options for some classes not all that offer some kind of group support as well in the skill offering and most of the healer ones do not even have warhorn as part of the skills for them.

Now I am not saying a tank can not use some support for the group they are the groups leader in most if not always cause they lead the group through the content have to know mechanic and things to call out so other know when to watch out for things. But here is the elephant in the room the is not just a PvP issue it is a PvE issue as well cause as many of you have stated not just here but this has always been the way or best strategy used in the meta. Well see because this is the only strategy being used it leaves no other strategies being learned and or used by the main stream cause its the only one known anywhere. The reason for this is most people look up ways to beat content and are hand held right to the meta strategy nothing else and being a Youtuber and content provider I am as much to blame as any of the other who offer guides to these runs cause we only show one way to complete the content and this leads to the one size fits all meta strategies many of us use.

Now before you say well that is cause its the best or only way I ask this how do you know have you tried others?

@Nolic1

I have tried other strategies. I've been fighting for the longest time for healtanks to become viable.

The problem is other means are not viable. Sorry bud, the reason other builds dont work is because the design is like a constrictor. Nothing else -works-. It's why the Meta is held to so ironclad in this game, and these changes only exaserbate this.

If people were truely able to run what they want in this game, you wouldn't be seeing the cult of personality, as much as I hate it. It's necessary.

You seem to be under the impression we have more choice than we do. We dont.

Heal tanks are alot of fun I agree and can be a blast to play to bad they do not fit into the meta though. As for your other statements I am sorry I do not believe there are no other ways to beat the content then the meta that the game currently has because I have tanked to many things with a 2-handed tank I was told does not work.

If you've beaten a vet trial, with a two-handed tank, you've either got hax, or you didn't do it. Like, period. No group could make, or would want to, that stupidity work.

If you've beat vet dungeons, depends on the dungeon. Your healer likely carried you.

Eitherway. You likely play on a low enough difficulty level that you can entertain these delusions, but that's all they are bud. Delusions. Get with the program.

You do not have to believe me but I do not believe you tried other strategies other wise you would of found other ways to beat the content. You sound like all the other I dealt with in EQ, WoW, DCUO, Vanguard, Terra, SwtoR and ever other mmo I have played that said the meta is the only way.

Liofa

Meta isn't obviously the only way . From what I understand and been saying this whole thread is this . DK is really really far better than other classes . They have the best sustain in terms of both Magicka and Stamina because they utilize Equilibrium best . They have the highest tankiness thanks to their class passives . If Off Balance changes goes live like this , they will have the highest DPS boost above all tanks thanks to Engulfing Flames . Almost every Magicka DD will be using Fire Blockade and Engulfing Flames will make an incredibly difference in terms of DPS and clear time of content , affecting scores in a huge way .

Having one class incredibly superior to other classes at tanking is not a good idea in my opinion . DK has always been the best class for how easy it is to play . They never had an enormous advantage over other classes in terms of group buffing . I am playing with a Warden as Main Tank in end-game content and getting decently high scores and achievements like Rakkhat HM 5th platform nuke etc. I am experienced enough to do same stuff with any class as tank . My point is , at the moment in live server , playing a non-DK tank is not a big deal . DPS boosting difference is not that high but if these changes go live like this , DK tank will be the absolute best at tanking , creating a huge gap between other classes in terms of sustain , tankiness and group support . Basically everything . That is the main problem I have at the moment . There should be a trade-off for choosing different classes . DK being the tankiest , Templar having the highest self healing , Nightblade having the highest mobility , Warden having the highest protective buffs and Sorcerer having the highest offensive buffs for example . Just throwing some random advantages to random classes . At the moment , I do not see a single reason to choose a class over DK because DK does everything best at tanking , which seems unbalanced to be honest .