PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

Doctordarkspawn

"Tactically block" my tookus.

They want to please a PVP playerbase who the majority of content isn't produced for.

ADD THE COST INCREASE TO BATTLE SPIRIT. STOP SCREWING THE REST OF US.

Doctordarkspawn

Tasear wrote: »

SirCritical wrote: »

How the hell could it be dangerous in PvE?! Which mob from yesterday's trial run are you, seriously, to complain?!

Chudan, warrior, mini monster on final boss in bloodroot.

He's probably one of the hapless moon priests who died in Maw.

Carbonised

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

"Tactically block" my tookus.

They want to please a PVP playerbase who the majority of content isn't produced for.

ADD THE COST INCREASE TO BATTLE SPIRIT. STOP SCREWING THE REST OF US.

Typing everything with caps doesn't change the fact that this was just as much about PvE as PvP. ZOS has noticed that tanks spend 10 % of their time tanking and 90 % of their time aiding group dps, putting buffs on raid group, putting debuffs on the boss. And they concluded that the actual tanking must be too trivial if a tank can spend his majority of time and ressources to boost group DPS. And they are right. It's a nice change that tanks actually have to worry more about tanking and less about being a group buff bot. It's not about PvP.

Rungar

seems it will now be more efficient to pick up that frost staff and get some stam recovery enchants instead of block cost reduction.

block cost is the same for both now.

Valencer

SirCritical wrote: »

How the hell could it be dangerous in PvE?! Which mob from yesterday's trial run are you, seriously, to complain?!

Do I really need to spell out that when I say "blocking is dangerous" it means it's dangerous for the person doing the blocking (as in, draining up to 8k stamina per second)?

LadyLavender

If you have to be an Argonian to tank…something might be wrong.
The beauty of this game has always been that you can build your character the way you want. Granted, some of those ways are going to work better than others for your play style. But only one possible tank, out of millions of possible combos? That is a problem.
For those of us who aren't elite tanks yet, and are still figuring out our sustain in trials, this is not going to be helpful.

SirCritical

Tasear wrote: »

SirCritical wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Good . Tanks can cry all they like it was out of control . Good job Wrobel .

This is a PvE thread . If a PvE tank killed you or you failed to kill them , I don't know what to say . If a PvP tank killed you , lol that's even worse ^^

Nifty2g wrote: »

If you are using a storm atro parse here, there is no reason why you wouldn't be able to sustain on that fight in this coming patch anyway. Nothing will change for that fight at all. Or any ranged fights for that matter where you are going to use blockade.

What buff uptime are you losing, a heavy attack takes 1 second, I don't understand what buff you are going to be losing.

Rakkhat Barrage . You will be blocking at least 10 hits back to back , which will consume at least 330 stamina , while using Absorb Magic . That's almost 10k stamina , just like that . Without having any time to actually debuff boss .

What about axes ? Will you drop block to heavy attack which will make you take several 5k hits in that small window ?

While tanking warrior , will you take the chance of getting knocked back to adds attack ? They are almost instant you know ...

I play with at least 120 ping and to be honest , I am not gonna do any of these unless I have to .

Anyway , I hope you are right . I really do .

Vaoh wrote: »

Why not balance PvP permablocking with Battlespirit nerfs? ....sigh

Because ZOS ^^

ZoS has stated many times they do not balance PVP and PVE separate so if you make a thread about blocking it involves both PVP and PVE . There are no PVE only threads on balance . You assume too much like I don't have a perma blocking tank that people can't kill without a Zerg . You are too emotional about the issue to see clearly and just make accusations . PVE is rediculous easy . If this change makes you walk away from tanking , it is you , not I that needs to L2P and GitGid lol .

If you'd be right, then Battle Spirit wouldn't exist at all. Stop spreading lies pls. This nerf is one of the worst, almost equal to stamregen nerf when blocking. I was really waiting for a thread like this from Liofa, and feared his math results. I'm very upset because of those numbers. Our guild completed vAA HM yesterday, for the first time. I was handling 5 axes. I dunno how this will be possible with this block cost increase. This was just an example. You know, these changes like this will widen the hatred between PvEers and PvPers. Let's state that this is a PvP oriented game, then we'll have the reason finally why we leave. This isn't true ofc, since I really like this game, but the infinite nerfs don't help in any balance.

It's possible to hold 8, and mages and boss.

For you, surely

SirCritical

Tasear wrote: »

SirCritical wrote: »

How the hell could it be dangerous in PvE?! Which mob from yesterday's trial run are you, seriously, to complain?!

Chudan, warrior, mini monster on final boss in bloodroot.

You missed my point. I reacted to the guy who said:

'Blocking is too dangerous for non-tank builds in both PvP and PvE, and block cost can be dropped to ridiculously low levels in both PvP and PvE.'

I'm against these changes, not supporting them.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Asardes wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Let's do two different setups . First one with 3 Shield-Play enchants , second one with none .

First setup has 336 block cost while the second one has 520 . Looking at the difference , Shield-Play enchants doesn't seem to be as effective as before . 3 enchants give you a block cost reduction of 184 , which was 609 before the nerf . This brings up the question . Shield-Play enchants are worth it or not ?

So they glyphs will still be pretty effective if I don't use Sturdy in my build, but become less and less so the more sturdy I add. In that case I think I'll farm geodes, transmute everything I have to sturdy and change to magicka recovery ones since that seems more effective because my magicka recovery multipliers can increase that. If I have 3 magicka recovery glyphs I can stack up to 507 magicka recovery, which amounts to about 700 when taking those into consideration. By comparison 8 sturdy armor pieces will give 32% or 554 reduction.

I am sure you know this but keep in mind that block cost is every 1/4 of a second. Regen is every 2 seconds. So even at 184 reduction, that is 1472 Stam saved every time you get that extra 700 magic that you would be trading for.

kylewwefan

So, since they’re changing the math behind blocking now; will footman be good again?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

kylewwefan wrote: »

So, since they’re changing the math behind blocking now; will footman be good again?

No, footmans does nothing for cost, only increases the amount of damage reduction from block, 8%, which is almost nothing after all other reductions.

Doctordarkspawn

Carbonised wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

"Tactically block" my tookus.

They want to please a PVP playerbase who the majority of content isn't produced for.

ADD THE COST INCREASE TO BATTLE SPIRIT. STOP SCREWING THE REST OF US.

Typing everything with caps doesn't change the fact that this was just as much about PvE as PvP. ZOS has noticed that tanks spend 10 % of their time tanking and 90 % of their time aiding group dps, putting buffs on raid group, putting debuffs on the boss. And they concluded that the actual tanking must be too trivial if a tank can spend his majority of time and ressources to boost group DPS. And they are right. It's a nice change that tanks actually have to worry more about tanking and less about being a group buff bot. It's not about PvP.

Except if that is the aim here, that's a stupid aim.

If you dont want tanks to support the group, why is the templar tank advised to grab shards? Why the DK tank advised to grab igneous shield? Why are they advised guard, a further team support ability? Why do I wanna bet about 50 bucks that the other two classes also have support abilities advised?

It's what they are. Tanks are group support. Your logic is stupid and contradicted by ZOS's own advisory tool. It is about PVP, all these changes are allways about PVP. Stop kidding yourself. You keep attempting to rationalize this as if there's a plan in place. There isn't. Not one the whole of ZOS is working toward. The right hand operates without the left hands express knowledge.

Doctordarkspawn

Carbonised wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

"Tactically block" my tookus.

They want to please a PVP playerbase who the majority of content isn't produced for.

ADD THE COST INCREASE TO BATTLE SPIRIT. STOP SCREWING THE REST OF US.

Typing everything with caps doesn't change the fact that this was just as much about PvE as PvP. ZOS has noticed that tanks spend 10 % of their time tanking and 90 % of their time aiding group dps, putting buffs on raid group, putting debuffs on the boss. And they concluded that the actual tanking must be too trivial if a tank can spend his majority of time and ressources to boost group DPS. And they are right. It's a nice change that tanks actually have to worry more about tanking and less about being a group buff bot. It's not about PvP.

Except if that is the aim here, that's a stupid aim.

If you dont want tanks to support the group, why is the templar tank advised to grab shards? Why the DK tank advised to grab igneous shield?

It's what they are. Tanks are group support. Your logic is stupid and contradicted by ZOS's own advisory tool. It is about PVP, all these changes are allways about PVP. Stop kidding yourself.

You went from typing all caps to calling someone stupid the minute they disagree with you.

Maybe you should take a timeout and blow off some steam

I repeat in the nicest manner possible:

If the aim of the changes is to make tanks less group support, why is the basic starter build for at least two classes filled with at least one group support ability, sometimes more than one, and sometimes with passives to support that ability? Please answer this question. I'd love to hear a rational, logical answer to it, that is argued from a place of logic, rather than exess love for the game.

Another one I'd love answered: If we're supposed to spend less time tanking, then why are the damage numbers for most of the raid bosses lessened, possibly through armor or spell mitigation? As previous established, one Rakkat blast will cost 10 K stamina next patch. Why should we block less if the content does not change? Surely, if the intent was to change how we play, the content would change to support that, no?

Edit: Still waiting.

Edit 2: Likely not geting an answer. Age old wisdom: "If you have not reasoned yourself into a position, you cannot reason yourself out of it."

In order to justify these changes you need to successfully answer both questions in a logical manner that the playerbase, or most of it, agree's with. In this case, PVE tanks. (PVP does not get a say. They're monopolization is hardly the point considering this sort of change can be done on a zone by zone basis.) I can safely bet my soul that likely will not happen.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@Doctordarkspawn while i agree with the spirit of the post you made, there is good reason to run both those skills on a tank, mainly the passives helping hands and spear wall, for the dk and temp tank respectively.

Doctordarkspawn

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Doctordarkspawn while i agree with the spirit of the post you made, there is good reason to run both those skills on a tank, mainly the passives helping hands and spear wall, for the dk dn an temp tank respectively.

And that's the point.

The only reason people are attempting to say we want less tank support are these changes. Tank sets in heavy ment for support like Alkosh and Ebon, game design up to this point has all been based on that principle: That tanks are partially group support.

The point of the post was to point out how stupid that is, and how there's a good year or two of game design to immediately contradict it. DK was build around using igneous to help the team, and itself. For the templar tank to support while buffing itself. Almost all the support skills function this way, buffing the user and the team. It allways was. To pretend otherwise is willfull ignorance.

The Skill Advisor isn't wrong. These changes are. It's repeated instances where the game tries to play to it's old strengths that the new design's flaws are exposed.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@Doctordarkspawn again while i agree with the spirit of your post, alkosh is a medium armor stamina dps set, or was supposed to be.

GreatGildersleeve

I think the one question that has to be asked, and I’m going to tag @ZOS_GinaBruno on this one because it needs to be asked of the ones in control, exactly what a tank is supposed to be in this game? Are we supposed to be group support that helps buff everyone, or are we meat popsicles that simply hold agro?
With every patch these days I’m not sure ZoS has a coherent plan for tanks given boss one shot mechanics and nerfing us into the ground...

Doctordarkspawn

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Doctordarkspawn again while i agree with the spirit of your post, alkosh is a medium armor stamina dps set, or was supposed to be.

My bad. I was thinking of Lunar Bastion. Still, you can point to a few different heavy support sets, if they were not ment to be used, they wouldn't be there.

Still. You get the point. I dont think playing nitpicker does anything for the thread or the conversation at this point.

Teridaxus

You would think dps would be actually the least pleased by such news...

Have fun in the group finder

JWillCHS

Carbonised wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I do not see these changes to block cost being anything different than on Live server in terms of sustain, as long as you are heavy attacking you should be fine. Do not forget about when heavy attacking an offbalanced enemy you restore double the resources which you can do every 20 seconds.

There are also more than just 2 synergies that you can use. And maybe groups might be setting up for that now, that would be a nice change of pace instead of just throwing all of your points into penetration CP.

@Nifty2g That is correct except one thing . Heavy attacks cost time which is used for keeping buff/debuffs with higher uptime . I honestly have no idea how I am going to fit heavy attacks while keeping taunt , heroic slash , mountain blessing , blockade and engulfing flames uptime while using balance to keep my magicka up .

You really do not need to use blockade honestly, if you are heavy attacking you can keep crusher up just fine doing that. Heavy attacking does not take long at all, you shouldn't be losing downtimes.

Sustaining won't be that difficult if you roll the appropriate race and class for it, and we are end game players, running what is best in slot should not be an issue for anyone.

I agree these are straight nerfs and we keep getting tank nerfs because of PvP which is ridiculous but these nerfs aren't the end of the world, I kinda like these ones as it's going to make tanking a little harder.

I disagree with one point.

Tanks are getting nerfs not only because of PVP, rather also because they are capable of virtually if not entirely abandoning "tanking" sets for damage sets designed to boost group performance.

PVP is what people are whining about, but "tanks" running destro dps skills back bar is a microcosm of how far tanking has shifted.

Truth right there. when tanking is more about keeping up crusher enchants and increasing group DPS, then tanking isn't about tanking any more, and the actually tanking (staying alive) has become too trivial.

I for one like that a tank actually has to use more effort to stay alive and keep ressources, instead of focusing on group DPS. We already have healers pretty much focusing on increasing group DPS, we don't need a 3rd role also focusing on that.

I also think this is something that will force the "ceiling" to be lowered more towards the floor and the less elite and organised groups.

One of the great things about ESO is that some of the game design is influenced by The Elder Scrolls. There's this idea of "diversity" when it comes to playing how you want. But I for one have never been of fan of deviating from the traditional roles of healing and tanking. Let alone removing support classes entirely from MMORPGs period.

I also think that ESO has the weakest large group endgame experience in comparison to two other big MMORPGs I'll not mention mainly because the soft-trinity. Then again ESO isn't like those games. However, I personally would like to see us move closer to a hard trinity. I'd like to see tanks fear, increase party defense, taunt, and be a solid wall even if it requires large health pools.

Kessra

We have to distinguish 2 scenarios here: default single-target boss fights and multi-add tanking. On single-target fights, sustain shouldn't be an issue. Most of the bosses do their heavy attacks once every 2-4 seconds and leave enough room to throw in heavy attacks in between and debuff the boss. Sure, 30 sec CD on synergies is a factor which reduces the overall sustain, though I don't think that this will make tanking impossible, just a bit more challenging. You also don't need to be argonian or DK in general, though especially argonian DKs will probably be the easiest to sustain - especially if not familiar with tanking. The real change though comes on multi-add fights as they will deplete your stamina quickly if perma-blocking. CC control will thus get more important again. Gladly, not many trial-encounters deal with multiple mobs to tank at once.

A random group and I attempted the final boss of fang lair on vet hm yesterday evening and it was partly ridiculous how quickly these two bugs that the boss spawned next to you could deplete your stamina and make you a one-hit to the bosses scarab attack. I wasn't familiar with the tank-changes back than though this could explain it at least. Though the adds seem to drain stamina even without blocking and especially slowing you permanently which makes tanking this boss just not fun at all (though vet normal is actually quite well balanced). Even as an Argonian DK I couldn't keep up with the resources needed. Guess this fight will be fun for any other tanking class. I have to admit though, that this was just a random group without VoIP tool and not an optimal strategy which lets room for quite some more improvements.

Sure, Alkosh will probably lose its charme in trials, though still you need to use a synergy every 10 seconds (for 3 in total) to keep it up all the time, usually the timing though of trigger one of the synergies is the limiting part of it. Most, especially stamina based, DDs don't need Alkosh anymore which also lead to its replacement by Torugs Pact, which is way easier to upkeep, especially with infused weapons. This will still be a viable set for trial-tanking, for dungeon-tanking we have to see if, especially due to frequent multi-mob situations, sustain-sets are preferable, which I think might be the case as mobs here in general do not life long enough to justify the debuffing overhead.

I have tanked and beaten every HM boss (except for vAS+2; though will so probably starting next week or the week after, cleared vAS +1 in both constelations multiple times so far) and usually staying alive isn't an issue in general, also resource managment is just a matter of confidence and knowledge about the encounters as you know when you can replenish your resources by heavy attacking and when special care needs to be put onto your resource management. The only situation that kills a non-permablocking tank here are rare insta-hits that hit you before the animation on the mob actually starts (I call them perfectly animation canceled ^^), this somethimes happens in vAS for some unknown reason and usually right after his lightning-kite stuff. Trying to taunt everything in multi-mob situations and using all of your skills constantly will just deplete your resources quickly. There is just a typical, but understandable, hystery on the upcoming changes which for sure will affect the overall gameplay. Though instead of switching roles and crying on the changes, we should learn to adept and improve our gameplay.

What I'd like to see though is a dmg increase for tanks as compensation for their sustain-loss. It feels just not right to see damage dealers break 70k dps barriers and seeing my 3-4k dps in comparison. I'm aware that my role is not to deal damage but enable DDs to do their "job", though the gap is just way to large. If outside a dungeon I need like 30-40 seconds for some unimportant trash mob, while a DD kills it with one to two hits and also doesn't have an issue at surviving. Well, you can switch to DD gear than you might state, though I already have way to many sets in my inventory which is thus fully packed. This leads to a situation where I mainly play the tank in trials or dungeon as outside of these it is just a pain in the ***, though sadly I have been into random-dungeon-finder groups where I dealt almost 50% of the groups damage (with 4k dps -.-).

Doctordarkspawn

Kessra wrote: »

We have to distinguish 2 scenarios here: default single-target boss fights and multi-add tanking. On single-target fights, sustain shouldn't be an issue. Most of the bosses do their heavy attacks once every 2-4 seconds and leave enough room to throw in heavy attacks in between and debuff the boss. Sure, 30 sec CD on synergies is a factor which reduces the overall sustain, though I don't think that this will make tanking impossible, just a bit more challenging. You also don't need to be argonian or DK in general, though especially argonian DKs will probably be the easiest to sustain - especially if not familiar with tanking. The real change though comes on multi-add fights as they will deplete your stamina quickly if perma-blocking. CC control will thus get more important again. Gladly, not many trial-encounters deal with multiple mobs to tank at once.

A random group and I attempted the final boss of fang lair on vet hm yesterday evening and it was partly ridiculous how quickly these two bugs that the boss spawned next to you could deplete your stamina and make you a one-hit to the bosses scarab attack. I wasn't familiar with the tank-changes back than though this could explain it at least. Though the adds seem to drain stamina even without blocking and especially slowing you permanently which makes tanking this boss just not fun at all (though vet normal is actually quite well balanced). Even as an Argonian DK I couldn't keep up with the resources needed. Guess this fight will be fun for any other tanking class. I have to admit though, that this was just a random group without VoIP tool and not an optimal strategy which lets room for quite some more improvements.

Sure, Alkosh will probably lose its charme in trials, though still you need to use a synergy every 10 seconds (for 3 in total) to keep it up all the time, usually the timing though of trigger one of the synergies is the limiting part of it. Most, especially stamina based, DDs don't need Alkosh anymore which also lead to its replacement by Torugs Pact, which is way easier to upkeep, especially with infused weapons. This will still be a viable set for trial-tanking, for dungeon-tanking we have to see if, especially due to frequent multi-mob situations, sustain-sets are preferable, which I think might be the case as mobs here in general do not life long enough to justify the debuffing overhead.

I have tanked and beaten every HM boss (except for vAS+2; though will so probably starting next week or the week after, cleared vAS +1 in both constelations multiple times so far) and usually staying alive isn't an issue in general, also resource managment is just a matter of confidence and knowledge about the encounters as you know when you can replenish your resources by heavy attacking and when special care needs to be put onto your resource management. The only situation that kills a non-permablocking tank here are rare insta-hits that hit you before the animation on the mob actually starts (I call them perfectly animation canceled ^^), this somethimes happens in vAS for some unknown reason and usually right after his lightning-kite stuff. Trying to taunt everything in multi-mob situations and using all of your skills constantly will just deplete your resources quickly. There is just a typical, but understandable, hystery on the upcoming changes which for sure will affect the overall gameplay. Though instead of switching roles and crying on the changes, we should learn to adept and improve our gameplay.

What I'd like to see though is a dmg increase for tanks as compensation for their sustain-loss. It feels just not right to see damage dealers break 70k dps barriers and seeing my 3-4k dps in comparison. I'm aware that my role is not to deal damage but enable DDs to do their "job", though the gap is just way to large. If outside a dungeon I need like 30-40 seconds for some unimportant trash mob, while a DD kills it with one to two hits and also doesn't have an issue at surviving. Well, you can switch to DD gear than you might state, though I already have way to many sets in my inventory which is thus fully packed. This leads to a situation where I mainly play the tank in trials or dungeon as outside of these it is just a pain in the ***, though sadly I have been into random-dungeon-finder groups where I dealt almost 50% of the groups damage (with 4k dps -.-).

We've been adapting for ages.

Now, the only thing we'll be adapting for is PVP's latest temper tantrum.

I repeat: If it does not stop, PVE tanking will eventually hit a point where our ability to manage resources simply will not be able to keep up with the content. People like you who would like the heard to calm down wish ultimately harm upon this game, through indirect means.

Apathy is death. Besides. If we're going to get damage anyway as a result, why not just abolish tanking as an institution at that point? If we're all DPS anyway, why not stop pretending?

Either hold to the trinity, or remove the trinity. ZOS's dilly-dallying on that front hasn't helped the game either.

Teuton67

I feel that changes like these are only going to put content out of reach for more players. I'm not as concerned with these changes for tanking in 12 man trials as much as I am in 4 man content, namely vDSA. I've been spending a lot of time recently going for better scores in vDSA and contemplating a 4X increase in block cost is scary. With all the other needs for stamina (bash, break-free, and roll dodge), draining four times as much for each block will be really taxing. It's all well and good to talk about running rotations and tactically blocking against a trial boss but that falls apart when you talk about tanking double adds in vDSA.

LordSarevok

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Good . Tanks can cry all they like it was out of control . Good job Wrobel .

This is a PvE thread . If a PvE tank killed you or you failed to kill them , I don't know what to say . If a PvP tank killed you , lol that's even worse ^^

Nifty2g wrote: »

If you are using a storm atro parse here, there is no reason why you wouldn't be able to sustain on that fight in this coming patch anyway. Nothing will change for that fight at all. Or any ranged fights for that matter where you are going to use blockade.

What buff uptime are you losing, a heavy attack takes 1 second, I don't understand what buff you are going to be losing.

Rakkhat Barrage . You will be blocking at least 10 hits back to back , which will consume at least 330 stamina , while using Absorb Magic . That's almost 10k stamina , just like that . Without having any time to actually debuff boss .

What about axes ? Will you drop block to heavy attack which will make you take several 5k hits in that small window ?

While tanking warrior , will you take the chance of getting knocked back to adds attack ? They are almost instant you know ...

I play with at least 120 ping and to be honest , I am not gonna do any of these unless I have to .

Anyway , I hope you are right . I really do .

Vaoh wrote: »

Why not balance PvP permablocking with Battlespirit nerfs? ....sigh

Because ZOS ^^

ZoS has stated many times they do not balance PVP and PVE separate so if you make a thread about blocking it involves both PVP and PVE . There are no PVE only threads on balance . You assume too much like I don't have a perma blocking tank that people can't kill without a Zerg . You are too emotional about the issue to see clearly and just make accusations . PVE is rediculous easy . If this change makes you walk away from tanking , it is you , not I that needs to L2P and GitGid lol .

So I assume you have tanked all the vet HM trials and have all the skins and titles to prove it (not paid for)? If you don't, you do not have a right to say it is easy. This is not a permissible thing either. You have no right because you are ignorant of the matter. Like me offering my 2 cents on string theory, or designing a quantum computer. I would be ignorant of those fields so my comments are absolutely invalid and inadmissible. Just like yours.

Cellentel

This change will be annoying, but not crippling, to leaderboard-pushing endgame groups. The tanks will tweak a few enchants, play with CP a bit, and everything will be ok.

However, it will be devastating for new tanks. Sustain is already challenging, and this makes it even more so. Increased block cost makes it easier to run out of resources, and the crutch of using Shards is less likely to be available (the better the tank is, the less they depend on shards, so the cooldown change will predominantly affect new tanks). Tank is the most stressful role for new groups because mistakes are very visible and often result in a wipe, and many new trial groups have difficulty filling their tank roles already. This will make it even worse.

If this change goes through, there needs to be an associated change to the existing boxes to make them more compatible with “tactical blocking”. Things like the axes are already hell for new tanks, and this will exacerbate the problem (in the usual starting point for new vet trial groups, no less).

Olms is a decent example of a fight that works well with this change. He has a number of big hits that must be blocked, but also large windows where you can heavy attack if you need to. If this is the direction you want trial tanking to go, fine, but don’t ignore the fact that many of the existing bosses don’t work that way.

And, yes, tanking groups of adds will be much harder now. Stam drops really quickly when you have multiple things wailing on you.

Qbiken

Saint_Bud wrote: »

They not nerfing blockcost in the ground for PvP, they nerf it for PvE. Bad tanks dont were suppost sets and a lot of them fhinks stacking armour is the way to go. ZOS just want that good tanks run real tank sets, just as the bad tanks. And for PvP the cahange will a buff, because we can block more on a normal dk build.

When was the last time someone complained about permablocking in PvP (I mean any serious, constructive threads) and I`ll be silent about it. People complained about permablock in PvP, even thought it was mostly a mitigation issue and not a blocking problem......

Joy_Division

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

We have to distinguish 2 scenarios here: default single-target boss fights and multi-add tanking. On single-target fights, sustain shouldn't be an issue. Most of the bosses do their heavy attacks once every 2-4 seconds and leave enough room to throw in heavy attacks in between and debuff the boss. Sure, 30 sec CD on synergies is a factor which reduces the overall sustain, though I don't think that this will make tanking impossible, just a bit more challenging. You also don't need to be argonian or DK in general, though especially argonian DKs will probably be the easiest to sustain - especially if not familiar with tanking. The real change though comes on multi-add fights as they will deplete your stamina quickly if perma-blocking. CC control will thus get more important again. Gladly, not many trial-encounters deal with multiple mobs to tank at once.

A random group and I attempted the final boss of fang lair on vet hm yesterday evening and it was partly ridiculous how quickly these two bugs that the boss spawned next to you could deplete your stamina and make you a one-hit to the bosses scarab attack. I wasn't familiar with the tank-changes back than though this could explain it at least. Though the adds seem to drain stamina even without blocking and especially slowing you permanently which makes tanking this boss just not fun at all (though vet normal is actually quite well balanced). Even as an Argonian DK I couldn't keep up with the resources needed. Guess this fight will be fun for any other tanking class. I have to admit though, that this was just a random group without VoIP tool and not an optimal strategy which lets room for quite some more improvements.

Sure, Alkosh will probably lose its charme in trials, though still you need to use a synergy every 10 seconds (for 3 in total) to keep it up all the time, usually the timing though of trigger one of the synergies is the limiting part of it. Most, especially stamina based, DDs don't need Alkosh anymore which also lead to its replacement by Torugs Pact, which is way easier to upkeep, especially with infused weapons. This will still be a viable set for trial-tanking, for dungeon-tanking we have to see if, especially due to frequent multi-mob situations, sustain-sets are preferable, which I think might be the case as mobs here in general do not life long enough to justify the debuffing overhead.

I have tanked and beaten every HM boss (except for vAS+2; though will so probably starting next week or the week after, cleared vAS +1 in both constelations multiple times so far) and usually staying alive isn't an issue in general, also resource managment is just a matter of confidence and knowledge about the encounters as you know when you can replenish your resources by heavy attacking and when special care needs to be put onto your resource management. The only situation that kills a non-permablocking tank here are rare insta-hits that hit you before the animation on the mob actually starts (I call them perfectly animation canceled ^^), this somethimes happens in vAS for some unknown reason and usually right after his lightning-kite stuff. Trying to taunt everything in multi-mob situations and using all of your skills constantly will just deplete your resources quickly. There is just a typical, but understandable, hystery on the upcoming changes which for sure will affect the overall gameplay. Though instead of switching roles and crying on the changes, we should learn to adept and improve our gameplay.

What I'd like to see though is a dmg increase for tanks as compensation for their sustain-loss. It feels just not right to see damage dealers break 70k dps barriers and seeing my 3-4k dps in comparison. I'm aware that my role is not to deal damage but enable DDs to do their "job", though the gap is just way to large. If outside a dungeon I need like 30-40 seconds for some unimportant trash mob, while a DD kills it with one to two hits and also doesn't have an issue at surviving. Well, you can switch to DD gear than you might state, though I already have way to many sets in my inventory which is thus fully packed. This leads to a situation where I mainly play the tank in trials or dungeon as outside of these it is just a pain in the ***, though sadly I have been into random-dungeon-finder groups where I dealt almost 50% of the groups damage (with 4k dps -.-).

We've been adapting for ages.

Now, the only thing we'll be adapting for is PVP's latest temper tantrum.

I repeat: If it does not stop, PVE tanking will eventually hit a point where our ability to manage resources simply will not be able to keep up with the content. People like you who would like the heard to calm down wish ultimately harm upon this game, through indirect means.

Apathy is death. Besides. If we're going to get damage anyway as a result, why not just abolish tanking as an institution at that point? If we're all DPS anyway, why not stop pretending?

Either hold to the trinity, or remove the trinity. ZOS's dilly-dallying on that front hasn't helped the game either.

Every time block cost gets increased, threads like this one appear.

And every time tanks managed to figure out how to perma-block, in both PvE and PvP.

For all the talk about PvE and PvP, ZoS has been pretty consistent that they don't want tanks in PvE duct-taping the block key during dungeons and trial.

I'm not saying what ZoS did was right or will work, I am saying through ESO's history there have been a lot Chicken Little pronouncements how tanking is dead, when only the means have changed.

So now, this 5th time the cry of "Uncle" is the god's honest truth and ZoS totally boned tanks. OK, you may believe that, but there is a reason why other people, including ZoS, maybe a bit skeptical.

Does whole idea of enjoyable tanking require that you have to 100% hold down the right mouse button?

Dragath

the difference between a shieldplay and no shieldplay setup is too small now.
i do like the overall cost decrease for the no shieldplay setup, but i also think the shieldplay setup should be better than it is right now on the pts.
i'd say put the blocking cost to about 200 with shieldplay and then watch how that goes.

Bevik

I'm not a tank pro even I have tanked vet dungeons but tank shouldn't permablock anyway. Should have high resist, a lot higher than DDs and high Health. Tanking should be an active role with good timing with blocks and interrupts. Taunt and CC. Group buffs must be defensive ones and survival ones. Unfortunately there is no buffer role so tanks and healer should give buffs and extra DPS.

NyassaV

"Do more heavy attacks" -Wrobel