PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

Nifty2g · January 2018

Liofa wrote: »

Having one class incredibly superior to other classes at tanking is not a good idea in my opinion .

@Liofa Just quoting this bit, Gina mentioned not long ago that Dragonknights are the tanking class and they are happy having certain classes do things better than others.

rustic_potato · January 2018

Conduit0 wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Make battle spirit bonus doubles the blocking cost.

That would fit fine with the half damage and healing policy (double blocking cost or half the blocking cost reduction, same or worst)

This is a PVE focused change as it is a buff to PVP tanks. Almost no properly specced PVP tank runs block cost enchants.

I'm sorry but this statement is Pure Grade A Organically Grown male bovine excrement. The block cost nerf was brought on entirely by the incessant whining of pvpers about permablocking tanks. ZOS has repeatedly proven that they are too lazy or too incompetent to make balance changes to one area of the game without screwing up a different area of the game.

@Conduit0 Wow hostile. Well i see that you have access to all the data that ZOS has on players and made the analysis to come to the conclusion that you claimed.

ZOS is many things but not ignorant. They have all the data to analyze why permablocking exists.

How do I know this? Council of Raiders. Do you know that ZOS has data of every players logged action? They just cant be bothered to explain to the common folk like you. I understand that you are frustrated with the nerf but that is how ZOS balances the game by nerfing stuff they deem too strong. Not buffing other options. Permablocking fell on the chopping block this patch.

This patch is a buff to all my PVP builds cos I'm not an idiot that runs PVE setups in PVP. Block cost enchants ensure that you will die with a full stamina bar. How do I know this because I play both sides of the game unlike certain forum whiners who have no idea what is going on the other half of the game.

If you have noticed the complaints about PVP are only from people who have no idea how PVP works in this game.

ccfeeling · January 2018

Hello everyone , PVE , what glyphs should I change for coming patch better ?
Need some advises ,thank you!

NB tank , Argon , Mazzatun + Hunt leader + Lord Warden

I think I can't tank in DLC dungeons HM technically , such as BF HM...

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2018

ccfeeling wrote: »

Hello everyone , PVE , what glyphs should I change for coming patch better ?
Need some advises ,thank you!

NB tank , Argon , Mazzatun + Hunt leader + Lord Warden

I think I can't tank in DLC dungeons HM technically , such as BF HM...

Don't change anything, there is at least 3 more weeks of the test server, so this stuff might change

Cage_Lizardman · January 2018

Liofa wrote: »

At the moment , I do not see a single reason to choose a class over DK because DK does everything best at tanking , which seems unbalanced to be honest .

Yeah it seems to me the problem isn't so much "permablocking" as "DK's". How many permablocking nightblades do you see anyway?

DoonerSeraph · January 2018

Liofa wrote: »

Meta isn't obviously the only way . From what I understand and been saying this whole thread is this . DK is really really far better than other classes . They have the best sustain in terms of both Magicka and Stamina because they utilize Equilibrium best . They have the highest tankiness thanks to their class passives . If Off Balance changes goes live like this , they will have the highest DPS boost above all tanks thanks to Engulfing Flames . Almost every Magicka DD will be using Fire Blockade and Engulfing Flames will make an incredibly difference in terms of DPS and clear time of content , affecting scores in a huge way .

Having one class incredibly superior to other classes at tanking is not a good idea in my opinion . DK has always been the best class for how easy it is to play . They never had an enormous advantage over other classes in terms of group buffing . I am playing with a Warden as Main Tank in end-game content and getting decently high scores and achievements like Rakkhat HM 5th platform nuke etc. I am experienced enough to do same stuff with any class as tank . My point is , at the moment in live server , playing a non-DK tank is not a big deal . DPS boosting difference is not that high but if these changes go live like this , DK tank will be the absolute best at tanking , creating a huge gap between other classes in terms of sustain , tankiness and group support . Basically everything . That is the main problem I have at the moment . There should be a trade-off for choosing different classes . DK being the tankiest , Templar having the highest self healing , Nightblade having the highest mobility , Warden having the highest protective buffs and Sorcerer having the highest offensive buffs for example . Just throwing some random advantages to random classes . At the moment , I do not see a single reason to choose a class over DK because DK does everything best at tanking , which seems unbalanced to be honest .

I agree with you aktjough I fear they would rather nerf engulfing flames than throw a bone to other tanks

And thats what made me shelf my templar tank. Stamina management is terrible already and they nerfed repentance so the healer actually makes my life worse (by repenting the corpses). I used leeching, malubethband bahrahas and had enough self healing to tank everything but oneshots without block. But I still need to taunt and debuff and these cost me stamina. I think some undaunted skills like blood altar could be reworked to help with stamina management on a non DK tank, especially templars and sorcs. And making so multiple templars dont compete for repentance would certainly help.

Liofa · January 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Having one class incredibly superior to other classes at tanking is not a good idea in my opinion .

@Liofa Just quoting this bit, Gina mentioned not long ago that Dragonknights are the tanking class and they are happy having certain classes do things better than others.

Obviously one class will be better than others but by this much ? You know what I mean . The difference is absurd . I hope they make a change that makes mDK DPS actually good this patch so DK tanks won't have the Engulfing Flames advantage . I am ok with DK having highest sustain and tankiness but not everything .

Anyway , even if this goes live like this , I am ready with my Imperial DK ^^ Ready for the OPness !

rustic_potato wrote: »

This patch is a buff to all my PVP builds cos I'm not an idiot that runs PVE setups in PVP. Block cost enchants ensure that you will die with a full stamina bar. How do I know this because I play both sides of the game unlike certain forum whiners who have no idea what is going on the other half of the game.

If you have noticed the complaints about PVP are only from people who have no idea how PVP works in this game.

This is very true . You can see lots of complaining threads in forums about how some players can permablock against zergs and kill them one by one . The thing is , without Shield-Play enchants , permablocking against zergs is not achievable . The block cost will be too high to do that . These was a thread created a while ago , maybe some of you seen it . 10 high rank potatos , all of them had cost increase poisons , can't kill a single StamDK who permablocks (which is not possible without Shield-Play enchants) and all of them dies to this DK one by one . I don't know what to say honestly . How can you die to someone who has cost increase poisons on him while tanking 9 other players ? These things actually happen , it's not a joke . I did similar things myself with the famous 7th/werewolf/malubeth build , using Shield-Play enchants . You can get insane amount of kills as long as you don't encounter someone who has basic knowledge about the game . I used to tank and kill 5-6 potatos by myself while permablocking in Cyrodiil on my first day with that build . Then someone with brains comes up and uses unblockade CC on CC immunity cooldown , completely counters the build , gets the kill and moves away . It's really that easy . Played with that build , played against it . Amazing against braindead zerglings , garbage against a semi-decent player .

And there are players out there who blocks certain things and certain times only . They are getting buffed and will be stronger than ever . Which is good , not against that to be honest . This will be considered a buff only to those whose gameplay is actually on point . Hats off to those mDKs who makes their opponents think they actually permablock but actually don't

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

At the moment , I do not see a single reason to choose a class over DK because DK does everything best at tanking , which seems unbalanced to be honest .

Yeah it seems to me the problem isn't so much "permablocking" as "DK's". How many permablocking nightblades do you see anyway?

I haven't seen any permablocking Nightblades after the Morrowind nerf to Siphoning Attacks .

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

I agree with you aktjough I fear they would rather nerf engulfing flames than throw a bone to other tanks

And thats what made me shelf my templar tank. Stamina management is terrible already and they nerfed repentance so the healer actually makes my life worse (by repenting the corpses). I used leeching, malubethband bahrahas and had enough self healing to tank everything but oneshots without block. But I still need to taunt and debuff and these cost me stamina. I think some undaunted skills like blood altar could be reworked to help with stamina management on a non DK tank, especially templars and sorcs. And making so multiple templars dont compete for repentance would certainly help.

I rather want ZOS to make mDK DPS to be viable and actually good in trials so they can use the Engulfing Flames , which will remove an advantage from DK tank and will bring some balance to difference between classes in terms of DPS viability .

And yes , that Repentance nerf was incredibly funny . Literally , Templar tank had the worst stamina sustain in the game , their only way of recovering Stamina while blocking was Repenting the Engine Guardian proc and it is taken away as a direct nerf ^^ I still have no idea why

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

retrokat wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

I agree that changing just for changing isn't a good thing, but I also agree that the actual tanking aspect of being a tank should be more of a challenge than it is now. We have to spec highly into the DPS role with specific setup for CP, gear and skill rotation, but any old guy can put on heavy armor and slot a taunt and tank 95 % of the content.

Preventing healers and tanks from focusing all their attention on group DPS and more on their specific role will also lower the ceiling towards the floor and prevent elite groups and guilds from dishing out DPS that's leagues above everyone else.

You want tanking to be *harder* and discourage 'any old guy' from putting on heavy armour and slotting a taunt to be a tank.. but there's already a huge shortage of PvE tanks. You rarely tank yourself, as you've said. But you want to make it MORE specialised, more boring and then expect that will make it more attractive as a role?

He tends to not make sense alot.

He stated he wants tanks to support less. I ask why then the skill advisor system advises tanks to have at least one team support ability.

He hasn't given me an answer yet.

The skill advisor is to help players in guiding them to the to role not to hand hold them to the meta. The options in skills it offers is the ones that are ease of use nothing more. Just cause most offer Warhorn as a last skill on the list of option is to help guide them to skills that starter tanks should run in the game to help guide them. So just cause one skill is group support means nothing there are alot of dps options for some classes not all that offer some kind of group support as well in the skill offering and most of the healer ones do not even have warhorn as part of the skills for them.

Now I am not saying a tank can not use some support for the group they are the groups leader in most if not always cause they lead the group through the content have to know mechanic and things to call out so other know when to watch out for things. But here is the elephant in the room the is not just a PvP issue it is a PvE issue as well cause as many of you have stated not just here but this has always been the way or best strategy used in the meta. Well see because this is the only strategy being used it leaves no other strategies being learned and or used by the main stream cause its the only one known anywhere. The reason for this is most people look up ways to beat content and are hand held right to the meta strategy nothing else and being a Youtuber and content provider I am as much to blame as any of the other who offer guides to these runs cause we only show one way to complete the content and this leads to the one size fits all meta strategies many of us use.

Now before you say well that is cause its the best or only way I ask this how do you know have you tried others?

@Nolic1

I have tried other strategies. I've been fighting for the longest time for healtanks to become viable.

The problem is other means are not viable. Sorry bud, the reason other builds dont work is because the design is like a constrictor. Nothing else -works-. It's why the Meta is held to so ironclad in this game, and these changes only exaserbate this.

If people were truely able to run what they want in this game, you wouldn't be seeing the cult of personality, as much as I hate it. It's necessary.

You seem to be under the impression we have more choice than we do. We dont.

Heal tanks are alot of fun I agree and can be a blast to play to bad they do not fit into the meta though. As for your other statements I am sorry I do not believe there are no other ways to beat the content then the meta that the game currently has because I have tanked to many things with a 2-handed tank I was told does not work.

If you've beaten a vet trial, with a two-handed tank, you've either got hax, or you didn't do it. Like, period. No group could make, or would want to, that stupidity work.

If you've beat vet dungeons, depends on the dungeon. Your healer likely carried you.

Eitherway. You likely play on a low enough difficulty level that you can entertain these delusions, but that's all they are bud. Delusions. Get with the program.

You do not have to believe me but I do not believe you tried other strategies other wise you would of found other ways to beat the content. You sound like all the other I dealt with in EQ, WoW, DCUO, Vanguard, Terra, SwtoR and ever other mmo I have played that said the meta is the only way.

"Well If you dont believe me, I dont believe you!"

"Your just not trying hard enough!"

Spare me. As for 'you dont have to believe me' it's not like your going out of your way to provide video evidence or anything.

Also: Half the games you listed have class systems, meaning there isn't a problem there, that's just the optimal setup. And the reason it's a problem here and not there, is the game should offer alot more choice than it does. It's set up to offer that choice. Instead it does nothing.

Quite frankly, if you want a great example of what I want this game to be? Look at Secret World Legends, a game that takes a customizable base like this game and turns it into a much better game where many more setups are useable.

Conduit0 · January 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Make battle spirit bonus doubles the blocking cost.

That would fit fine with the half damage and healing policy (double blocking cost or half the blocking cost reduction, same or worst)

This is a PVE focused change as it is a buff to PVP tanks. Almost no properly specced PVP tank runs block cost enchants.

I'm sorry but this statement is Pure Grade A Organically Grown male bovine excrement. The block cost nerf was brought on entirely by the incessant whining of pvpers about permablocking tanks. ZOS has repeatedly proven that they are too lazy or too incompetent to make balance changes to one area of the game without screwing up a different area of the game.

@Conduit0 Wow hostile. Well i see that you have access to all the data that ZOS has on players and made the analysis to come to the conclusion that you claimed.

ZOS is many things but not ignorant. They have all the data to analyze why permablocking exists.

How do I know this? Council of Raiders. Do you know that ZOS has data of every players logged action? They just cant be bothered to explain to the common folk like you. I understand that you are frustrated with the nerf but that is how ZOS balances the game by nerfing stuff they deem too strong. Not buffing other options. Permablocking fell on the chopping block this patch.

This patch is a buff to all my PVP builds cos I'm not an idiot that runs PVE setups in PVP. Block cost enchants ensure that you will die with a full stamina bar. How do I know this because I play both sides of the game unlike certain forum whiners who have no idea what is going on the other half of the game.

If you have noticed the complaints about PVP are only from people who have no idea how PVP works in this game.

Because no developer has ever made a poor decision in spite of the available data. The fact that back in November when they first mentioned looking into perma-blocking the devs said they were investigating adding something to champion passives or an item set that increased block cost shows that it is in fact a pvp centric issue they were trying to solve.

Also you don't know pvp nearly as well as you think you do, because I know for a fact that some people do run shield play enchants in pvp.

SirCritical · January 2018

retrokat wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

I agree that changing just for changing isn't a good thing, but I also agree that the actual tanking aspect of being a tank should be more of a challenge than it is now. We have to spec highly into the DPS role with specific setup for CP, gear and skill rotation, but any old guy can put on heavy armor and slot a taunt and tank 95 % of the content.

Preventing healers and tanks from focusing all their attention on group DPS and more on their specific role will also lower the ceiling towards the floor and prevent elite groups and guilds from dishing out DPS that's leagues above everyone else.

You want tanking to be *harder* and discourage 'any old guy' from putting on heavy armour and slotting a taunt to be a tank.. but there's already a huge shortage of PvE tanks. You rarely tank yourself, as you've said. But you want to make it MORE specialised, more boring and then expect that will make it more attractive as a role?

No, that guy is right in one thing: tanking won't be boring, I'll be annoyed as hell while tanking.

SirCritical · January 2018

Asardes wrote: »

I just did the math for my current tank setup:

48 CP in Shadow Ward, no sturdy, 3 shield play enchants, defensive posture slotted, fortress passive unlocked

Block cost on live is 483, pretty high, but I've lived with it for a long time, since I don't perma-block, or simply compensate in other ways, primarily high magicka recovery ~1.8-2.2K depending on gear (Atronach Mundus with divines on small pieces, Whichmother's Brew) and high ultimate recovery (minor heroism, heavy attack weave, ingenous shield, bloodspawn) and ultimate cost reduction (Akaviri Dragonguard). I could tank 5+ axes in vAA without flinching or running out of stamina. That setup allows me much more flexibility - ex. I have enough magicka to chain adds on my own at Twins or spam GDB at the Warrior.

Block cost on PTS for the same setup raises to 541, also pretty high, but only marginally higher than it used to be. I can live with it if I throw a bit more CP in Shadow Ward - if I put 100 CP in that star I end up with 495. If I swap out my Divines for Sturdy I end up with 455. If I do both I end up with 415. So I can actually lower my costs under what I have now, only losing about ~100 magicka recovery. So I will overcome.

Thank you. Now nerf magicka regen shieldspam DKs.

SirCritical · January 2018

ccfeeling wrote: »

Hello everyone , PVE , what glyphs should I change for coming patch better ?
Need some advises ,thank you!

NB tank , Argon , Mazzatun + Hunt leader + Lord Warden

I think I can't tank in DLC dungeons HM technically , such as BF HM...

The best thing you could use is a class change token.

Kessra · January 2018

@Liofa While perma-blocking might still be possible for DK tanks utilizing the right setup, it is though questionable if it makes that much sense in PvE. For experienced tanks it is a pretty boring playstile and you always try to keep the group-support up as much as possible. And throwing in heavy attacks after blocking one always felt great, not only from the resources you gained back.

Sure, DKs are on top and I'd like to see a buff to the other tank classes in near future as well, though the tone of your recent posts almost scream for a DK nerf instead of a buff of the other classes, and there have already been more than enough nerfs in the past (or present). And DKs aren't the best at everything, at most of the stuff maybe, but they still aren't the class with the best mobility in the game (in the same niche as templars actually) and they aren't the class with the best group/raid buffs either (most groups don't even like when you cast igneous weapons as they prefer using their expensive potions also in 4 men dungeons ...). Though, I agree for tanking they are the class to choose from currently as mobility isn't that important in trials most of the time (or can be gathered elsewhere; speed-buff *caugh*) and the group/raid doesn't depend on the class-based buffs tanks provide. Usually they can be provided by other roles of that class as well and free the slot for a slightly better class (min-max strategy).

If we look at healers, they are almost in the same boat. In trials I almost always see templar healers and they almost always wear 2 out of 4 bigger sets. They have by far less room (gear/skills) to choose than tanks have but also have to fill their support duties as tanks have to (at least in progress-orinted trial groups). While on paper other classes, like the Warden, could be contenders for their spot in the group, still Templars outshine other healers and thus get choosen over other classes, and everyone seems to be fine with that.

Maybe with the so called Alkosh nerf (which is litteraly only a synergy consumption change), it could make more sense to at least bring a Warden healer if 100% uptime of Alkosh should be achieved as they could provide the 3rd synergie to upkeep alkosh. Though, most DDs already adapted their settings in the past to not have to rely on its debuf actually, hence it wasn't the set to aim for as a tank with the last update anyways. Eventhough @Woeler calculated that a roughly 50% uptime of Alkosh outshines the crusher-enchantment with infused Torugs Pact setup, it was considered as to unreliable to upkeep at times in the end and was thus replaced by the latter as the playstile changed to tanks throwing in heavy attacks to gain more self-sustain. I mainly used Alkosh on bosses that didn't look like a threat to me, i.e. the spider-boss in vHoF, where also the CD of synergies wasn't ever (and maybe still wont be) an issue at all and thus was rather safe to use. As mentioned before, most DDs didn't even require its buff anymore and I was encouraged by my raid to switch it as it does not provide any further benefits to the group as DDs were not changing their CPs on a boss-basis anylonger.

Am I in favor of the changes? No! Do I think there are other, more important building lots in ESO? Totally! Will you miss perma-block? No, as I haven't relied on it anyway! The only encounter so far perma-block could have saved my life was at vAS Olms when right after the lightning-kite phase he insta-nuked me withtough any animation, though I consider this an animation glitch of the encounter. This also happens very rarely. Other than that I don't see a necessity to hide behind my shield all the time, neither at the vAA axes nore at hel ra bosses. We just need to figure out when it is safe to drop the shild - and this can be done by any tank class actually.

On resource managment and self-sustain, DKs are in their own league, I agree. The netch of the Warden is to weak IMO and, well, NB tanks are a rarity since the siphoning strike changes (I though know one of these "creatures" that is in danger of being extinct; though he keeps doing his thing in semi-progress oriented trials). Though, as mentioned in a previous post, tanks (especially non-DK tanks, but also they) need to learn to read the off-balance debuff on the boss and then use heavy attacks. During the 4 seconds (roughly every 20 seconds) heavy attacks will replenish twice as much of the resources. Even if DPS will go down for certain classes, it is though important to at least proc off-balance as often as possible. This is a pure incentive to drop the shield and throw in a heavy attack, afterwards you can hide again behind your shield if you want (or have to due to an incoming heavy attack).

I also would like to see some changes to the damage incoming and that blocking is rather nice-to-have (to give healers time to top you off again) rather than compulsory-to-do in order to stay alive and by failing you are instantly dead. Though we can argue what we want, ZOS has done their thing and we have to either accept it or choose an other role or game we'd like to play, based on the feedback we gave in the past and the influence it had on the changes that have gone live.

Weps · January 2018

Kessra wrote: »

On resource managment and self-sustain, DKs are in their own league, I agree. The netch of the Warden is to weak IMO and, well, NB tanks are a rarity since the siphoning strike changes (I though know one of these "creatures" that is in danger of being extinct; though he keeps doing his thing in semi-progress oriented trials).

Wardens tank shouldn't rely on the netch but on the Nature's Gift passive.
On Live I have a block cost set somewhere between 250-300 so the Netch AND that passive basically nullify the block cost.
On top of that I also have Sentinel of Rkugamz so sustain is not that problematic. Even in the next patch.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2018

Weps wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

On resource managment and self-sustain, DKs are in their own league, I agree. The netch of the Warden is to weak IMO and, well, NB tanks are a rarity since the siphoning strike changes (I though know one of these "creatures" that is in danger of being extinct; though he keeps doing his thing in semi-progress oriented trials).

Wardens tank shouldn't rely on the netch but on the Nature's Gift passive.
On Live I have a block cost set somewhere between 250-300 so the Netch AND that passive basically nullify the block cost.
On top of that I also have Sentinel of Rkugamz so sustain is not that problematic. Even in the next patch.

How do you proc the natures gift passive? Because you have to heal an ally for the return.

Weps · January 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

On resource managment and self-sustain, DKs are in their own league, I agree. The netch of the Warden is to weak IMO and, well, NB tanks are a rarity since the siphoning strike changes (I though know one of these "creatures" that is in danger of being extinct; though he keeps doing his thing in semi-progress oriented trials).

Wardens tank shouldn't rely on the netch but on the Nature's Gift passive.
On Live I have a block cost set somewhere between 250-300 so the Netch AND that passive basically nullify the block cost.
On top of that I also have Sentinel of Rkugamz so sustain is not that problematic. Even in the next patch.

How do you proc the natures gift passive? Because you have to heal an ally for the return.

Even when you heal yourself. Leeching vines proc it all the time. You just have to have a bigger magicka pool than a stamina one and it's effective 250 stam recovery while on block

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2018

Weps wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

On resource managment and self-sustain, DKs are in their own league, I agree. The netch of the Warden is to weak IMO and, well, NB tanks are a rarity since the siphoning strike changes (I though know one of these "creatures" that is in danger of being extinct; though he keeps doing his thing in semi-progress oriented trials).

Wardens tank shouldn't rely on the netch but on the Nature's Gift passive.
On Live I have a block cost set somewhere between 250-300 so the Netch AND that passive basically nullify the block cost.
On top of that I also have Sentinel of Rkugamz so sustain is not that problematic. Even in the next patch.

How do you proc the natures gift passive? Because you have to heal an ally for the return.

Even when you heal yourself. Leeching vines proc it all the time. You just have to have a bigger magicka pool than a stamina one and it's effective 250 stam recovery while on block

You are wrong. The passive only works when you heal an ally, you are not an ally. Test it out yourself.

Nifty2g · January 2018

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Having one class incredibly superior to other classes at tanking is not a good idea in my opinion .

@Liofa Just quoting this bit, Gina mentioned not long ago that Dragonknights are the tanking class and they are happy having certain classes do things better than others.

Obviously one class will be better than others but by this much ? You know what I mean . The difference is absurd . I hope they make a change that makes mDK DPS actually good this patch so DK tanks won't have the Engulfing Flames advantage . I am ok with DK having highest sustain and tankiness but not everything .

Any change to DK that would nerf them would severely damage the class. I am fine with DK being the best tank, it's just like Templars are the best healers.

Qbiken · January 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

On resource managment and self-sustain, DKs are in their own league, I agree. The netch of the Warden is to weak IMO and, well, NB tanks are a rarity since the siphoning strike changes (I though know one of these "creatures" that is in danger of being extinct; though he keeps doing his thing in semi-progress oriented trials).

Wardens tank shouldn't rely on the netch but on the Nature's Gift passive.
On Live I have a block cost set somewhere between 250-300 so the Netch AND that passive basically nullify the block cost.
On top of that I also have Sentinel of Rkugamz so sustain is not that problematic. Even in the next patch.

How do you proc the natures gift passive? Because you have to heal an ally for the return.

Even when you heal yourself. Leeching vines proc it all the time. You just have to have a bigger magicka pool than a stamina one and it's effective 250 stam recovery while on block

You are wrong. The passive only works when you heal an ally, you are not an ally. Test it out yourself.

•When healing with a Green Balance ability, gain 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina. Restores your lowest resource pool.

Or you can just read how the passive is written. It doesn´t say anything about you or an ally. And beside, for many abilities and sets you´re also considered an ally, even though there´s no real consistency with how that works.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

On resource managment and self-sustain, DKs are in their own league, I agree. The netch of the Warden is to weak IMO and, well, NB tanks are a rarity since the siphoning strike changes (I though know one of these "creatures" that is in danger of being extinct; though he keeps doing his thing in semi-progress oriented trials).

Wardens tank shouldn't rely on the netch but on the Nature's Gift passive.
On Live I have a block cost set somewhere between 250-300 so the Netch AND that passive basically nullify the block cost.
On top of that I also have Sentinel of Rkugamz so sustain is not that problematic. Even in the next patch.

How do you proc the natures gift passive? Because you have to heal an ally for the return.

Even when you heal yourself. Leeching vines proc it all the time. You just have to have a bigger magicka pool than a stamina one and it's effective 250 stam recovery while on block

You are wrong. The passive only works when you heal an ally, you are not an ally. Test it out yourself.

•When healing with a Green Balance ability, gain 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina. Restores your lowest resource pool.

Or you can just read how the passive is written. It doesn´t say anything about you or an ally. And beside, for many abilities and sets you´re also considered an ally, even though there´s no real consistency with how that works.

Or you can read how the passive is actually written-

When healing an ally with a Green Balance ability, gain 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina. Restores your lowest resource pool. This effect can occur once every 1 second

I have no idea where you got that description but the uesp website, http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Green_Balance, is 99% of the time right on.

I know this is true because I have a max level tankden and a max level stamden. I know this is the because I thought like you did till I actually tested it. I thought like you did till I was shown I was wrong. The passive also only works if you actually heal someone, like under 100%. I know this because I test it with my stamden and green lotus.

Zer0oo · January 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

On resource managment and self-sustain, DKs are in their own league, I agree. The netch of the Warden is to weak IMO and, well, NB tanks are a rarity since the siphoning strike changes (I though know one of these "creatures" that is in danger of being extinct; though he keeps doing his thing in semi-progress oriented trials).

Wardens tank shouldn't rely on the netch but on the Nature's Gift passive.
On Live I have a block cost set somewhere between 250-300 so the Netch AND that passive basically nullify the block cost.
On top of that I also have Sentinel of Rkugamz so sustain is not that problematic. Even in the next patch.

How do you proc the natures gift passive? Because you have to heal an ally for the return.

Even when you heal yourself. Leeching vines proc it all the time. You just have to have a bigger magicka pool than a stamina one and it's effective 250 stam recovery while on block

You are wrong. The passive only works when you heal an ally, you are not an ally. Test it out yourself.

•When healing with a Green Balance ability, gain 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina. Restores your lowest resource pool.

Or you can just read how the passive is written. It doesn´t say anything about you or an ally. And beside, for many abilities and sets you´re also considered an ally, even though there´s no real consistency with how that works.

Or you can read how the passive is actually written-

When healing an ally with a Green Balance ability, gain 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina. Restores your lowest resource pool. This effect can occur once every 1 second

I have no idea where you got that description but the uesp website, http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Green_Balance, is 99% of the time right on.

I know this is true because I have a max level tankden and a max level stamden. I know this is the because I thought like you did till I actually tested it. I thought like you did till I was shown I was wrong. The passive also only works if you actually heal someone, like under 100%. I know this because I test it with my stamden and green lotus.

Yep, it only works if you actually proc the heal on an ally and sadly you can't target your bear with natures embrace to proc it if you are solo.

Qbiken · January 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

On resource managment and self-sustain, DKs are in their own league, I agree. The netch of the Warden is to weak IMO and, well, NB tanks are a rarity since the siphoning strike changes (I though know one of these "creatures" that is in danger of being extinct; though he keeps doing his thing in semi-progress oriented trials).

Wardens tank shouldn't rely on the netch but on the Nature's Gift passive.
On Live I have a block cost set somewhere between 250-300 so the Netch AND that passive basically nullify the block cost.
On top of that I also have Sentinel of Rkugamz so sustain is not that problematic. Even in the next patch.

How do you proc the natures gift passive? Because you have to heal an ally for the return.

Even when you heal yourself. Leeching vines proc it all the time. You just have to have a bigger magicka pool than a stamina one and it's effective 250 stam recovery while on block

You are wrong. The passive only works when you heal an ally, you are not an ally. Test it out yourself.

•When healing with a Green Balance ability, gain 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina. Restores your lowest resource pool.

Or you can just read how the passive is written. It doesn´t say anything about you or an ally. And beside, for many abilities and sets you´re also considered an ally, even though there´s no real consistency with how that works.

Or you can read how the passive is actually written-

When healing an ally with a Green Balance ability, gain 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina. Restores your lowest resource pool. This effect can occur once every 1 second

I have no idea where you got that description but the uesp website, http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Green_Balance, is 99% of the time right on.

I know this is true because I have a max level tankden and a max level stamden. I know this is the because I thought like you did till I actually tested it. I thought like you did till I was shown I was wrong. The passive also only works if you actually heal someone, like under 100%. I know this because I test it with my stamden and green lotus.

Hmm, my apologies then @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

On resource managment and self-sustain, DKs are in their own league, I agree. The netch of the Warden is to weak IMO and, well, NB tanks are a rarity since the siphoning strike changes (I though know one of these "creatures" that is in danger of being extinct; though he keeps doing his thing in semi-progress oriented trials).

Wardens tank shouldn't rely on the netch but on the Nature's Gift passive.
On Live I have a block cost set somewhere between 250-300 so the Netch AND that passive basically nullify the block cost.
On top of that I also have Sentinel of Rkugamz so sustain is not that problematic. Even in the next patch.

How do you proc the natures gift passive? Because you have to heal an ally for the return.

Even when you heal yourself. Leeching vines proc it all the time. You just have to have a bigger magicka pool than a stamina one and it's effective 250 stam recovery while on block

You are wrong. The passive only works when you heal an ally, you are not an ally. Test it out yourself.

•When healing with a Green Balance ability, gain 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina. Restores your lowest resource pool.

Or you can just read how the passive is written. It doesn´t say anything about you or an ally. And beside, for many abilities and sets you´re also considered an ally, even though there´s no real consistency with how that works.

Or you can read how the passive is actually written-

When healing an ally with a Green Balance ability, gain 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina. Restores your lowest resource pool. This effect can occur once every 1 second

I have no idea where you got that description but the uesp website, http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Green_Balance, is 99% of the time right on.

I know this is true because I have a max level tankden and a max level stamden. I know this is the because I thought like you did till I actually tested it. I thought like you did till I was shown I was wrong. The passive also only works if you actually heal someone, like under 100%. I know this because I test it with my stamden and green lotus.

Hmm, my apologies then @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

nothing to apologize for. question everything, test as much as you can.

some evidence to help clarify.

Liofa · January 2018

Kessra wrote: »

Sure, DKs are on top and I'd like to see a buff to the other tank classes in near future as well, though the tone of your recent posts almost scream for a DK nerf instead of a buff of the other classes, and there have already been more than enough nerfs in the past (or present).

group/raid doesn't depend on the class-based buffs tanks provide. Usually they can be provided by other roles of that class as well and free the slot for a slightly better class (min-max strategy).

Oh , that is one big misunderstanding . Sorry if it looked like that . I never asked for a nerf to DK tank , never would . My solution DK being far too stronger than other classes was making mDK DPS viable so they could use Engulfing Flames , removing this huge advantage DK tanks will have next patch . I basically asked for a buff to mDK DPS which would also solve my concerns about balance between classes in terms of tanking

Every Magicka DD will be using Flame Blockade next patch and mDK DPS is still not viable (actually got nerfed in terms of sustain) , which makes DK tank a necessity . That's the biggest class advantage DK has right now .

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

You are wrong. The passive only works when you heal an ally, you are not an ally. Test it out yourself.

Yep , this is true . It only works when you heal an ally . Doesn't work on self healing .

Nifty2g wrote: »

Any change to DK that would nerf them would severely damage the class. I am fine with DK being the best tank, it's just like Templars are the best healers.

Yes I am fine with DK being the best tank too . That's not the point . The difference between classes shouldn't be this high , that's all . As I said before , didn't ask for a nerf , never would . I rather get a buff to mDK DPS so DK tanks will not have this huge advantage over other classes . Engulfing Flames will be one of the strongest debuffs in next patch due to how many magicka users will be using Fire Blockade .

Templars are best healers because they have the best burst healing . As I said before , there should be a trade-off between classes . Warden has the highest sustain , better team supportive buffs and higher healing output while having overall better stats . They give up the burst healing to get these bonuses . It's a decent trade as burst healing without aim is an insane advantage for any healer . See , tanking doesn't have this trade-off thing . Everything you want on a tank , DK does it all best , completely removing any chance for other classes to even get close in competition . At the moment , using Engulfing Flames is not a big deal . Of course it is still a decent DPS boost but after patch , it will be absurdly strong .

Woeler · January 2018

Like any other tanking change they have made in the past, this will just be a matter of adjusting. I did the new dungeons on the PTS with the exact setup I run on live, and while I did feel the difference, I had no major problems at all. The real question lies in the matter of enchants, as other enchants are now likely to contribute more to sustain, such as magicka recovery, or even potion speed on Argonians.

I'm just glad this ultra-dumb lightning staff thing is finally over. Thank God. I hated using this. Been using a frost staff on back bar lately anyway, as off-balance uptime with a couple of lightning blockade runners is barely, if at all affected by a tank pulling some stunts.

I don't think people should see this as a nerf necessarily, more as a change. There are other ways to get sustain as a tank, and you can still boost those with different enchants. I don't see a grim future, especially since slowly the ice staff starts finally making sense --that is without the passive that turns your block cost to magicka-- at least.

SirCritical · January 2018

Guys, don't discuss Warden skills here because they nerf those too.

actosh · January 2018

@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Liofa wrote: »

CLASS DIFFERENCE

Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .

This was pointed out multiple times to zos over the last year, as well as in my own thread.
Warden and Dk will be fine, especially dk, because in the worst case they just go for more magicka regen and spam the *** out of igneous to get stam back.

Warden will be okay, they will feel it, but it will be doable.

Funny thing is still that zos says they are happy with dk being the tanky class, and for over a year they are the top dps ^^.

In short, dont nerf dk/warden, buff the others and do some classdesign ffs

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

actosh wrote: »

@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Liofa wrote: »

CLASS DIFFERENCE

Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .

This was pointed out multiple times to zos over the last year, as well as in my own thread.
Warden and Dk will be fine, especially dk, because in the worst case they just go for more magicka regen and spam the *** out of igneous to get stam back.

Warden will be okay, they will feel it, but it will be doable.

Funny thing is still that zos says they are happy with dk being the tanky class, and for over a year they are the top dps ^^.

In short, dont nerf dk/warden, buff the others and do some classdesign ffs

Didn't they recently say they wanted all classes to be able to perform all rolls?

Mixed friggin' signals anyone?

actosh · January 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Liofa wrote: »

CLASS DIFFERENCE

Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .

This was pointed out multiple times to zos over the last year, as well as in my own thread.
Warden and Dk will be fine, especially dk, because in the worst case they just go for more magicka regen and spam the *** out of igneous to get stam back.

Warden will be okay, they will feel it, but it will be doable.

Funny thing is still that zos says they are happy with dk being the tanky class, and for over a year they are the top dps ^^.

In short, dont nerf dk/warden, buff the others and do some classdesign ffs

Didn't they recently say they wanted all classes to be able to perform all rolls?

Mixed friggin' signals anyone?

They did, and this could mean anything ^^.

Rather then raising blockcost(wich we all will adapt to i´m sure) they should have looked at the way how ressources are gained while hidding behind a shield(pve/pvp)

If they really want to go with that "tactical blocking" stuff, they need to redo some of the bosses. On some that is tactical thing is np to do and there i mostly spam vampdrain or debuff that boss.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

actosh wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Liofa wrote: »

CLASS DIFFERENCE

Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .

This was pointed out multiple times to zos over the last year, as well as in my own thread.
Warden and Dk will be fine, especially dk, because in the worst case they just go for more magicka regen and spam the *** out of igneous to get stam back.

Warden will be okay, they will feel it, but it will be doable.

Funny thing is still that zos says they are happy with dk being the tanky class, and for over a year they are the top dps ^^.

In short, dont nerf dk/warden, buff the others and do some classdesign ffs

Didn't they recently say they wanted all classes to be able to perform all rolls?

Mixed friggin' signals anyone?

They did, and this could mean anything ^^.

Rather then raising blockcost(wich we all will adapt to i´m sure) they should have looked at the way how ressources are gained while hidding behind a shield(pve/pvp)

If they really want to go with that "tactical blocking" stuff, they need to redo some of the bosses. On some that is tactical thing is np to do and there i mostly spam vampdrain or debuff that boss.

People will adapt to it, sure, but again, it's the cracks beginning to form in the foundation.

And yes, they do need to redo some bosses. I'm -fine- with that, if they want to change how blocking works and redo content to support it, fine. Hell, even throw in some healtank viability for a broader spectrum and we'd be golden. But they'd have to do that, and I doubt they will.

Like I've said before, this will not be doomsday for tanks. It's just the cracks in the foundation beginning to form. The content and the plan need to change soon.