Good . Tanks can cry all they like it was out of control . Good job Wrobel .

Nifty2g wrote: »

You really do not need to use blockade honestly, if you are heavy attacking you can keep crusher up just fine doing that. Heavy attacking does not take long at all, you shouldn't be losing downtimes.

Sustaining won't be that difficult if you roll the appropriate race and class for it, and we are end game players, running what is best in slot should not be an issue for anyone.

I agree these are straight nerfs and we keep getting tank nerfs because of PvP which is ridiculous but these nerfs aren't the end of the world, I kinda like these ones as it's going to make tanking a little harder.

I actually need to run Blockade . Applying Crusher while stunned or while being away from boss makes a huge difference in many fights . You must have seen some Storm Atro parses before . While no-lightning-staff tanks are getting around 70% , I consider 99% as low . Just an example .

About heavy attacks , it is true that they don't take long but it doesn't change the fact that they take longer than normal . A heavy attack + skill is slower than two skills in a row . I will be losing buff uptimes and so are you , like everyone else .

The thing that makes me mad been pointed by many other players . Problem is not permablocking . It is the amount of healing and mitigation . Almost all PvP builds being centered around burst is just the perfect proof of that . Anyway , that's about PvP so I don't want to get into that even more . It is just that I don't like getting nerfed because of something that is completely unrelated to me .

The only real differences I see is that you are going to need to be an Argonian and make clever use of their passives.

Almost forgot . This is an another nerf . As an Imperial , if I switch to Argonian , I'll be losing stats to recover (only a part of) the lost sustain . What a joke ...

Stamden wrote: »

I never got why people complain about permablocking builds in PvP in the first place. It's annoying, but there is nothing effective about it.

True . I wish ZOS would see this as clear as we do . They are just listening to some casuls who are simply bad at PvP

Nifty2g wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

The thing we need to focus on is how are we the players going to try and make builds to fit these new changes.

Easy I can provide a step by step


*Become an Argonian with race change sale.
*Heavy attack more and heavy attack when bosses are offbalanced. Making an addon for this you get bonus points.
*Use potions at appropriate times.

Something for someone to consider/test -- reduce potion cooldown enchantments with Argonian.

Nifty2g wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

The thing we need to focus on is how are we the players going to try and make builds to fit these new changes.

Easy I can provide a step by step


*Become an Argonian with race change sale.
*Heavy attack more and heavy attack when bosses are offbalanced. Making an addon for this you get bonus points.
*Use potions at appropriate times.

Something for someone to consider/test -- reduce potion cooldown enchantments with Argonian.

Glyph of potion speed sounds like a great idea. Imagine being able to pop a potion every 30 seconds. Makes the trash pots worthwhile. Perhaps I will stock them up rather than selling them.

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You really do not need to use blockade honestly, if you are heavy attacking you can keep crusher up just fine doing that. Heavy attacking does not take long at all, you shouldn't be losing downtimes.

Sustaining won't be that difficult if you roll the appropriate race and class for it, and we are end game players, running what is best in slot should not be an issue for anyone.

I agree these are straight nerfs and we keep getting tank nerfs because of PvP which is ridiculous but these nerfs aren't the end of the world, I kinda like these ones as it's going to make tanking a little harder.

I actually need to run Blockade . Applying Crusher while stunned or while being away from boss makes a huge difference in many fights . You must have seen some Storm Atro parses before . While no-lightning-staff tanks are getting around 70% , I consider 99% as low . Just an example .

About heavy attacks , it is true that they don't take long but it doesn't change the fact that they take longer than normal . A heavy attack + skill is slower than two skills in a row . I will be losing buff uptimes and so are you , like everyone else .

The thing that makes me mad been pointed by many other players . Problem is not permablocking . It is the amount of healing and mitigation . Almost all PvP builds being centered around burst is just the perfect proof of that . Anyway , that's about PvP so I don't want to get into that even more . It is just that I don't like getting nerfed because of something that is completely unrelated to me .

The only real differences I see is that you are going to need to be an Argonian and make clever use of their passives.

Almost forgot . This is an another nerf . As an Imperial , if I switch to Argonian , I'll be losing stats to recover (only a part of) the lost sustain . What a joke ...

Stamden wrote: »

I never got why people complain about permablocking builds in PvP in the first place. It's annoying, but there is nothing effective about it.

True . I wish ZOS would see this as clear as we do . They are just listening to some casuls who are simply bad at PvP

If you are using a storm atro parse here, there is no reason why you wouldn't be able to sustain on that fight in this coming patch anyway. Nothing will change for that fight at all. Or any ranged fights for that matter where you are going to use blockade.

What buff uptime are you losing, a heavy attack takes 1 second, I don't understand what buff you are going to be losing.

I’ve just fairly recently begun to truly enjoy PvE tanking, and then this.
I’m crossing my fingers and toes for a better solution when Dragon Bones goes live.

I’ll be tanking extensively until it launches, enjoy every moment of it, gobble every synergy, and debuff until the sun rises, just in case the harsh Tankpocalypse falls upon us.

Nifty2g wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I do not see these changes to block cost being anything different than on Live server in terms of sustain, as long as you are heavy attacking you should be fine. Do not forget about when heavy attacking an offbalanced enemy you restore double the resources which you can do every 20 seconds.

There are also more than just 2 synergies that you can use. And maybe groups might be setting up for that now, that would be a nice change of pace instead of just throwing all of your points into penetration CP.

@Nifty2g That is correct except one thing . Heavy attacks cost time which is used for keeping buff/debuffs with higher uptime . I honestly have no idea how I am going to fit heavy attacks while keeping taunt , heroic slash , mountain blessing , blockade and engulfing flames uptime while using balance to keep my magicka up .

You really do not need to use blockade honestly, if you are heavy attacking you can keep crusher up just fine doing that. Heavy attacking does not take long at all, you shouldn't be losing downtimes.

Sustaining won't be that difficult if you roll the appropriate race and class for it, and we are end game players, running what is best in slot should not be an issue for anyone.

I agree these are straight nerfs and we keep getting tank nerfs because of PvP which is ridiculous but these nerfs aren't the end of the world, I kinda like these ones as it's going to make tanking a little harder.

I disagree with one point.

Tanks are getting nerfs not only because of PVP, rather also because they are capable of virtually if not entirely abandoning "tanking" sets for damage sets designed to boost group performance.

PVP is what people are whining about, but "tanks" running destro dps skills back bar is a microcosm of how far tanking has shifted.

Tanks providing group utility has been around for years that at this point I'd be surprised if the developers say themselves they do not like this and want to go a different route. I don't believe that is the case here.
I mean this with no offense at all, running destro dps skills on back bar is just a lazy/smart way of getting high crusher uptimes. There are other ways of doing it which will become more universally used this coming update.
Using heavy attacks as a tank gives the group more support if you are using Torugs with infused crusher because even trying to spam skills to keep crusher up 100% in current patch will drain your stamina.

Using blockade on backbar isnt just a lazy way of applying crusher. Its the most effective way of applying it and it also helps keeping up off balance for the group. Also pls explain to me how you will keep your crusher enchant up while rakkat switches platforms in mol.

Screamo wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I do not see these changes to block cost being anything different than on Live server in terms of sustain, as long as you are heavy attacking you should be fine. Do not forget about when heavy attacking an offbalanced enemy you restore double the resources which you can do every 20 seconds.

There are also more than just 2 synergies that you can use. And maybe groups might be setting up for that now, that would be a nice change of pace instead of just throwing all of your points into penetration CP.

@Nifty2g That is correct except one thing . Heavy attacks cost time which is used for keeping buff/debuffs with higher uptime . I honestly have no idea how I am going to fit heavy attacks while keeping taunt , heroic slash , mountain blessing , blockade and engulfing flames uptime while using balance to keep my magicka up .

You really do not need to use blockade honestly, if you are heavy attacking you can keep crusher up just fine doing that. Heavy attacking does not take long at all, you shouldn't be losing downtimes.

Sustaining won't be that difficult if you roll the appropriate race and class for it, and we are end game players, running what is best in slot should not be an issue for anyone.

I agree these are straight nerfs and we keep getting tank nerfs because of PvP which is ridiculous but these nerfs aren't the end of the world, I kinda like these ones as it's going to make tanking a little harder.

I disagree with one point.

Tanks are getting nerfs not only because of PVP, rather also because they are capable of virtually if not entirely abandoning "tanking" sets for damage sets designed to boost group performance.

PVP is what people are whining about, but "tanks" running destro dps skills back bar is a microcosm of how far tanking has shifted.

Tanks providing group utility has been around for years that at this point I'd be surprised if the developers say themselves they do not like this and want to go a different route. I don't believe that is the case here.
I mean this with no offense at all, running destro dps skills on back bar is just a lazy/smart way of getting high crusher uptimes. There are other ways of doing it which will become more universally used this coming update.
Using heavy attacks as a tank gives the group more support if you are using Torugs with infused crusher because even trying to spam skills to keep crusher up 100% in current patch will drain your stamina.

Using blockade on backbar isnt just a lazy way of applying crusher. Its the most effective way of applying it and it also helps keeping up off balance for the group. Also pls explain to me how you will keep your crusher enchant up while rakkat switches platforms in mol.

I said it's a lazy/smart way of keeping it up. You can just simply proc crusher as Rakkhat is going to break a platform by light attacking, heavy attacking or using taunt/heroic slash. Crusher lasts 5 seconds.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Good . Tanks can cry all they like it was out of control . Good job Wrobel .

This is a PvE thread . If a PvE tank killed you or you failed to kill them , I don't know what to say . If a PvP tank killed you , lol that's even worse ^^

Nifty2g wrote: »

If you are using a storm atro parse here, there is no reason why you wouldn't be able to sustain on that fight in this coming patch anyway. Nothing will change for that fight at all. Or any ranged fights for that matter where you are going to use blockade.

What buff uptime are you losing, a heavy attack takes 1 second, I don't understand what buff you are going to be losing.

Rakkhat Barrage . You will be blocking at least 10 hits back to back , which will consume at least 330 stamina , while using Absorb Magic . That's almost 10k stamina , just like that . Without having any time to actually debuff boss .

What about axes ? Will you drop block to heavy attack which will make you take several 5k hits in that small window ?

While tanking warrior , will you take the chance of getting knocked back to adds attack ? They are almost instant you know ...

I play with at least 120 ping and to be honest , I am not gonna do any of these unless I have to .

Anyway , I hope you are right . I really do .

Vaoh wrote: »

Why not balance PvP permablocking with Battlespirit nerfs? ....sigh

Because ZOS ^^

rustic_potato wrote: »

If block only stops secondary effects like stun, snares, knockbacks and oneshots instead of the insane damage mitigation it would solve the problem. That promotes "you block only when you need to" mindset and keep tanking interesting.

This would be decent for PvP but destroy PvE . There are boss attacks that can deal 20k+ damage even while blocking . Here is an example , Assembly General . The famous punch . Can't dodge it , have to block . If you don't block , guaranteed death ^^

Liofa wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Good . Tanks can cry all they like it was out of control . Good job Wrobel .

This is a PvE thread . If a PvE tank killed you or you failed to kill them , I don't know what to say . If a PvP tank killed you , lol that's even worse ^^

Nifty2g wrote: »

If you are using a storm atro parse here, there is no reason why you wouldn't be able to sustain on that fight in this coming patch anyway. Nothing will change for that fight at all. Or any ranged fights for that matter where you are going to use blockade.

What buff uptime are you losing, a heavy attack takes 1 second, I don't understand what buff you are going to be losing.

Rakkhat Barrage . You will be blocking at least 10 hits back to back , which will consume at least 330 stamina , while using Absorb Magic . That's almost 10k stamina , just like that . Without having any time to actually debuff boss .

What about axes ? Will you drop block to heavy attack which will make you take several 5k hits in that small window ?

While tanking warrior , will you take the chance of getting knocked back to adds attack ? They are almost instant you know ...

I play with at least 120 ping and to be honest , I am not gonna do any of these unless I have to .

Anyway , I hope you are right . I really do .

Vaoh wrote: »

Why not balance PvP permablocking with Battlespirit nerfs? ....sigh

Because ZOS ^^

As I said though, you will likely have to run Argonian to counteract the nerfs. I mean I don't like Argonian I prefer using my Imperial.
Rakkhat Barrage is simple to overcome though, you can proc crusher as it starts and use it towards the end, and just have someone guarding you to reduce the damage, I believe they did that in the top vmol score. I truly don't think this is going to be the end of tanking and having tanks give support to the groups, all we are going to need to do is race change and make sure you watch that off balance, I think someone should make an addon for it though to be able to track it

Heavy attacking tanks isn't a new concept though, that's been around since morrowind

Nifty2g wrote: »

As I said though, you will likely have to run Argonian to counteract the nerfs. I mean I don't like Argonian I prefer using my Imperial.
Rakkhat Barrage is simple to overcome though, you can proc crusher as it starts and use it towards the end, and just have someone guarding you to reduce the damage, I believe they did that in the top vmol score. I truly don't think this is going to be the end of tanking and having tanks give support to the groups, all we are going to need to do is race change and make sure you watch that off balance, I think someone should make an addon for it though to be able to track it

Heavy attacking tanks isn't a new concept though, that's been around since morrowind

Now that you are giving an example out of the top vmol score , I highly recommend you to watch it again . Tank is constantly reapplying buffs/debuffs and still having downtimes , well maybe not the best timing with skills but still . I am having a hard time to understand how it will be the same uptimes with heavy attacks in between ^^

I am pretty sure you can track Off Balance with Srendarr , using the whitelist thingy .

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

You assume too much like I don't have a perma blocking tank that people can't kill without a Zerg .

So you are saying that permablock tanks can only be killed with a zerg . Ok . I understand that you have no idea about not only PvE , also PvP . I am not going to bother with your useless comments on this thread anymore . Good day .

Liofa wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

You assume too much like I don't have a perma blocking tank that people can't kill without a Zerg .

So you are saying that permablock tanks can only be killed with a zerg . Ok . I understand that you have no idea about not only PvE , also PvP . I am not going to bother with your useless comments on this thread anymore . Good day .

Enjoy your nerf . Haha

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

All I mentioned from the top score video was that main tank was being guarded which would help in current update to have higher uptimes to proc crusher even though you could simple proc it before the barrage starts.

I want to know why you think it is hard to keep buffs up while heavy attacking, you do know you do not have to heavy attack before every single skill? Set yourself a rotation to keep up. I am going to be honest here and say these timers are very easy to say ahead of.

Taunt lasts 15 seconds
Breach/Fracture lasts 12 seconds
Maim lasts 12 seconds
Heroism lasts 9 seconds
Engulfing lasts 10 seconds
Alkosh lasts 10 seconds
Crusher lasts 5 seconds
Heavy attack takes less than 2 seconds to do

I don't understand how you wouldn't be able to stay ahead because you are heavy attacking here and there, is this because you really don't want to?

I do have a rotation and it is just enough to keep every buff up with self sustain . Here it is :

Taunt > LA > Heroic Slash > LA > Igneous Shield > Swap > Blockade > LA > Engulfing > Swap > HA > Balance > HA > Balance > LA , repeat

Light attacks can be skipped while blocking .

Whatever I changed , I either ran out of Magicka or had a downtime on buffs/debuffs . Problem is , even though this is a heavy attack rotation , this is only usable in dummy-like fights . Most mechanics break this rotation due to how dependant it is on that ''HA>Balance>HA>Balance'' part . That is where my sustain comes from . If a mechanic prevents me from doing that part , at least a quarter of my resources will be gone To recover the lost resources , I'll have to drop some uptime from buffs and debuffs . I would like to hear what kind of rotation you use that is more reliable

Note : I tried without Balance , magicka can't hold up without dropping Lord Warden or destroying my stats by using Max HP + Mag Regen food .

You should theoretically not need balance if you are argonian and say Engulfing is procing most of your magickasteal reliably but lets assume we are using balance to keep up our armor buffs

I start off by going longest to shortest so; taunt, heroic slash, engulfing (i'd use balance on the next rotation and then use it every 2nd set). Since crusher normally procs on taunt engulfing is where i heavy attack to proc it again before i redo that rotation. light attacking depends on the bosses attack pattern so I don't get one shot which is why i didn't include it

I don't use blockade because I really don't see a point to it, crusher is applying all the time with torugs and infused changes but I guess it's personal preference at this point. So that's 1 less thing I need to worry about, and because it has a 8 second timer would also throw off a rotation without spending all your resources. All I will change this update is making sure I don't use a potion when a boss is offbalanced.

As for Alkosh, it's a bit difficult and it is hard to get a perfect uptime on it anyway with how synergies are right now and it's going to be even harder unless you can fit a warden healer into the group. The main thing about that rotation is keeping up crusher honestly, so you need to track it and depending where you are in the rotation to heavy attack before picking up a synergy.

But yeah, I really don't think tanking will change much for us other than possibly changing race, but we will see. That might not even be needed. I mean it'd make everything a lot easier.

And lets be honest, not every uptime will be perfect because a lot of the time boss mechanics are preventing it, either they jump around or they have invulnerability phases.