RIP Miat's addon

usmcjdking

I'm grateful for the removal of the heavy attack removal. I felt that that one was a tad bit unfair as heavy attacks are integral to sustain in PVP.

Dorrino

Taysa wrote: »

Western MMOs love add ons, though, as evidenced by your examples, and others such as Rift.

I was hesitant if Rift had addons, but then put it in 'not-that-much-successful-mmo' category:)

Along with Lotro and Swtor, that Rohamad_Ali brings in as examples of successful mmos without addons^^

Xsorus

They need to take a bat to all these mods that are providing info like this. Addons can be fine, telling ya when to dodge though cause you weren’t paying attention not so much.

Kalante

good hopefully after everyone starts getting health desync and start complaining in pc maybe zos will nerf snipe. It's really bad in console with all the snipe spammers.

Thalmor-Nordmaster

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

If anyone with TC loaded could post a short video with Miat's running and a few variable attacks from stealth it would be most appricated . I can not as somethings from the update is over heating my cpu and cannot identify why .

it's CAT FUR!! Go take a bath... And then lay in the sun. That will give me time to clean out the litter box. And cut the gnawed on end of the Steak off before pops find's out you scarfed on it.

SpearDusk

Good, No more easy mode

Ohtimbar

And nothing of value was lost. Good riddance.

Aisle9

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

THAT SAID



Sorry @Dorrino
I don't care about snipe, but getting notifications for Dizzying Swing or Heavy Attacks from someone in cloak, invisipot or otherwise stealth should not exists.

Snipers can burn.

DDuke

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Cheating? Perhaps not per se, but abusing something that isn't really functioning as intended could be called exploiting and that's where the line starts to get blurry. But yeah, everyone sees that differently I guess.

Aisle9 wrote: »

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

This I vehemently disagree with - Snipe was an awesome ganking tool back in 2014/2015 when you could combo it with Heavy Attack & Poison Injection, which would all land at the same time (Snipe had a 3s cast time, longer travel time & there existed a skill called "Haste" that let you cast heavy attacks faster as NB).

Here's just an example from those days: https://youtu.be/MILkeZ1MMdc?t=1m10s


Snipe is making somewhat of a comeback now thanks to Asylum Bow, so bow finally has some killing potential again (especially with Miats gone), but it's still not quite how it used to be.

Aisle9

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Cheating? Perhaps not per se, but abusing something that isn't really functioning as intended could be called exploiting and that's where the line starts to get blurry. But yeah, everyone sees that differently I guess.

If it's in the APIs, it can be used, if it's not intended it's up to the devs to change it.

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

This I vehemently disagree with - Snipe was an awesome ganking tool back in 2014/2015 when you could combo it with Heavy Attack & Poison Injection, which would all land at the same time (Snipe had a 3s cast time, longer travel time & there existed a skill called "Haste" that let you cast heavy attacks faster as NB).

Here's just an example from those days: https://youtu.be/MILkeZ1MMdc?t=1m10s


Snipe is making somewhat of a comeback now thanks to Asylum Bow, so bow finally has some killing potential again (especially with Miats gone), but it's still not quite how it used to be.

Battle Spirit took care of that, but, ok, I concede your point. Let me rephrase it: "Snipe is currently not an efficient gank tool, and it's not making a comeback." If 5 people sniping the same guy is your idea of effective, well... Poison Injection has the same effect and it's faster, but if the guy doesn't die and manages to recover you will.

It's making a comeback because of the Asylum bow...


BTW, I think you missed this part:

Dorrino wrote: »

[..]So what exactly will be different after the update goes live:

You won't see:
1. heavy attacks of any sort,
2. ambush and dizzying swing before they land,
3. start of snipes, dark flares, crystal frags.

You will see:
All ranged attacks when they fire. Including snipes, flares and frags.[..]

Kalante

Console players

what is miat addon, what is any addon.

Jade1986

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Cheating? Perhaps not per se, but abusing something that isn't really functioning as intended could be called exploiting and that's where the line starts to get blurry. But yeah, everyone sees that differently I guess.

If it's in the APIs, it can be used, if it's not intended it's up to the devs to change it.

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

This I vehemently disagree with - Snipe was an awesome ganking tool back in 2014/2015 when you could combo it with Heavy Attack & Poison Injection, which would all land at the same time (Snipe had a 3s cast time, longer travel time & there existed a skill called "Haste" that let you cast heavy attacks faster as NB).

Here's just an example from those days: https://youtu.be/MILkeZ1MMdc?t=1m10s


Snipe is making somewhat of a comeback now thanks to Asylum Bow, so bow finally has some killing potential again (especially with Miats gone), but it's still not quite how it used to be.

Battle Spirit took care of that, but, ok, I concede your point. Let me rephrase it: "Snipe is currently not an efficient gank tool, and it's not making a comeback." If 5 people sniping the same guy is your idea of effective, well... Poison Injection has the same effect and it's faster, but if the guy doesn't die and manages to recover you will.

It's making a comeback because of the Asylum bow...

Banks have doors, so by your comparison its ok to rob them.

Jade1986

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

THAT SAID



Sorry @Dorrino
I don't care about snipe, but getting notifications for Dizzying Swing or Heavy Attacks from someone in cloak, invisipot or otherwise stealth should not exists.

Snipers can burn.

Bias much?

Aisle9

Jade1986 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Cheating? Perhaps not per se, but abusing something that isn't really functioning as intended could be called exploiting and that's where the line starts to get blurry. But yeah, everyone sees that differently I guess.

If it's in the APIs, it can be used, if it's not intended it's up to the devs to change it.

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

This I vehemently disagree with - Snipe was an awesome ganking tool back in 2014/2015 when you could combo it with Heavy Attack & Poison Injection, which would all land at the same time (Snipe had a 3s cast time, longer travel time & there existed a skill called "Haste" that let you cast heavy attacks faster as NB).

Here's just an example from those days: https://youtu.be/MILkeZ1MMdc?t=1m10s


Snipe is making somewhat of a comeback now thanks to Asylum Bow, so bow finally has some killing potential again (especially with Miats gone), but it's still not quite how it used to be.

Battle Spirit took care of that, but, ok, I concede your point. Let me rephrase it: "Snipe is currently not an efficient gank tool, and it's not making a comeback." If 5 people sniping the same guy is your idea of effective, well... Poison Injection has the same effect and it's faster, but if the guy doesn't die and manages to recover you will.

It's making a comeback because of the Asylum bow...

Banks have doors, so by your comparison its ok to rob them.

To be honest I don't quite understand the comparison ...

Sounds like a straw man, I could be wrong about that, but sounds like one...

Jade1986

Aisle9 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Cheating? Perhaps not per se, but abusing something that isn't really functioning as intended could be called exploiting and that's where the line starts to get blurry. But yeah, everyone sees that differently I guess.

If it's in the APIs, it can be used, if it's not intended it's up to the devs to change it.

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

This I vehemently disagree with - Snipe was an awesome ganking tool back in 2014/2015 when you could combo it with Heavy Attack & Poison Injection, which would all land at the same time (Snipe had a 3s cast time, longer travel time & there existed a skill called "Haste" that let you cast heavy attacks faster as NB).

Here's just an example from those days: https://youtu.be/MILkeZ1MMdc?t=1m10s


Snipe is making somewhat of a comeback now thanks to Asylum Bow, so bow finally has some killing potential again (especially with Miats gone), but it's still not quite how it used to be.

Battle Spirit took care of that, but, ok, I concede your point. Let me rephrase it: "Snipe is currently not an efficient gank tool, and it's not making a comeback." If 5 people sniping the same guy is your idea of effective, well... Poison Injection has the same effect and it's faster, but if the guy doesn't die and manages to recover you will.

It's making a comeback because of the Asylum bow...

Banks have doors, so by your comparison its ok to rob them.

To be honest I don't quite understand the comparison ...

You are saying the API allows it, so everything is fair game.

Banks have doors, so robbing them must be fair game.

See where that kind of slippery logic fails? Just because something is possible, doesnt mean it should be done.

Jade1986

My api change post in the PTS

Also, guys, lets start posting in the PTS forums too, considering there is NO official discussion thread, I thought I would make one with the facts that we know now.

Aisle9

Jade1986 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Cheating? Perhaps not per se, but abusing something that isn't really functioning as intended could be called exploiting and that's where the line starts to get blurry. But yeah, everyone sees that differently I guess.

If it's in the APIs, it can be used, if it's not intended it's up to the devs to change it.

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

This I vehemently disagree with - Snipe was an awesome ganking tool back in 2014/2015 when you could combo it with Heavy Attack & Poison Injection, which would all land at the same time (Snipe had a 3s cast time, longer travel time & there existed a skill called "Haste" that let you cast heavy attacks faster as NB).

Here's just an example from those days: https://youtu.be/MILkeZ1MMdc?t=1m10s


Snipe is making somewhat of a comeback now thanks to Asylum Bow, so bow finally has some killing potential again (especially with Miats gone), but it's still not quite how it used to be.

Battle Spirit took care of that, but, ok, I concede your point. Let me rephrase it: "Snipe is currently not an efficient gank tool, and it's not making a comeback." If 5 people sniping the same guy is your idea of effective, well... Poison Injection has the same effect and it's faster, but if the guy doesn't die and manages to recover you will.

It's making a comeback because of the Asylum bow...

Banks have doors, so by your comparison its ok to rob them.

To be honest I don't quite understand the comparison ...

You are saying the API allows it, so everything is fair game.

Banks have doors, so robbing them must be fair game.

See where that kind of slippery logic fails? Just because something is possible, doesnt mean it should be done.

Ah, I see what you mean, no, that's just you being ignorant, but don't worry, ignorance is a perfectly valid state of mind: you don't know about something, you learn something.

API stands for Application Programming Interface, they are devices the developers of a closed system, use to interface with that closed system, and plugins developers use to develop plugins to add functionalities to that system.

So, no, your argument is definitely a straw man, because you're comparing a closed system (the game engine) with an open system (a bank). It would be more accurate to say:
"ATMs have an interface, so by your definition is fair to try to rob an ATM".

Here's where the fallacy is: in order to do that you need a 3rd party software (e.g. Cheat Engine), because the ATM's API do not allow for a withdraw without the associated device (credit/debit card) and a correct PIN.

The APIs only allow for things within the bounds of what the closed system's developers intend, which means a robbery can't happen.

If a robbery could happen it meant there's a pretty big flaw in the infrastructure of the door, or that a robbery was indeed allowed.

Hope this helps.
Have a good day.

Aisle9

Jade1986 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

THAT SAID



Sorry @Dorrino
I don't care about snipe, but getting notifications for Dizzying Swing or Heavy Attacks from someone in cloak, invisipot or otherwise stealth should not exists.

Snipers can burn.

Bias much?

I am biased, I don't like Miat's, but I also don't like misinformation. I main nigblade, btw (stam and mag)

InvitationNotFound

oh this is hilarious.
didn't I say you won't like their "fix"?

And again, i don't really care about that part of Miat's PvP Alerts But this thread makes me laugh, a lot.

Keep up the good work @Dorrino and thanks for the good conversations / assistance

Btw. I have a question for the console players here: do slash commands work on console? like /dance or whatever?

DDuke

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Cheating? Perhaps not per se, but abusing something that isn't really functioning as intended could be called exploiting and that's where the line starts to get blurry. But yeah, everyone sees that differently I guess.

If it's in the APIs, it can be used, if it's not intended it's up to the devs to change it.

So if there's a bug in the game it can be used & it's up to the devs to change it? Thanks for that bit of insight, still doesn't change the fact that it can be (and is by many) considered exploiting.

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

This I vehemently disagree with - Snipe was an awesome ganking tool back in 2014/2015 when you could combo it with Heavy Attack & Poison Injection, which would all land at the same time (Snipe had a 3s cast time, longer travel time & there existed a skill called "Haste" that let you cast heavy attacks faster as NB).

Here's just an example from those days: https://youtu.be/MILkeZ1MMdc?t=1m10s


Snipe is making somewhat of a comeback now thanks to Asylum Bow, so bow finally has some killing potential again (especially with Miats gone), but it's still not quite how it used to be.

Battle Spirit took care of that, but, ok, I concede your point. Let me rephrase it: "Snipe is currently not an efficient gank tool, and it's not making a comeback." If 5 people sniping the same guy is your idea of effective, well... Poison Injection has the same effect and it's faster, but if the guy doesn't die and manages to recover you will.

It's making a comeback because of the Asylum bow...


BTW, I think you missed this part:

Dorrino wrote: »

[..]So what exactly will be different after the update goes live:

You won't see:
1. heavy attacks of any sort,
2. ambush and dizzying swing before they land,
3. start of snipes, dark flares, crystal frags.

You will see:
All ranged attacks when they fire. Including snipes, flares and frags.[..]

I guess you're not aware of how the combo works then?


Here's an example (albeit on a low CP target):
https://youtu.be/R63jwNgGvk4


It doesn't matter if the addon shows warning for the incoming projectile (which I still think is garbage & should be removed), the Acid Spray stuns people as soon as the cast time finishes when cast from stealth.

Main obstacle to this build was people dodge rolling during the cast time itself, which made the whole combo get dodged.

Jade1986

Aisle9 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Cheating? Perhaps not per se, but abusing something that isn't really functioning as intended could be called exploiting and that's where the line starts to get blurry. But yeah, everyone sees that differently I guess.

If it's in the APIs, it can be used, if it's not intended it's up to the devs to change it.

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

This I vehemently disagree with - Snipe was an awesome ganking tool back in 2014/2015 when you could combo it with Heavy Attack & Poison Injection, which would all land at the same time (Snipe had a 3s cast time, longer travel time & there existed a skill called "Haste" that let you cast heavy attacks faster as NB).

Here's just an example from those days: https://youtu.be/MILkeZ1MMdc?t=1m10s


Snipe is making somewhat of a comeback now thanks to Asylum Bow, so bow finally has some killing potential again (especially with Miats gone), but it's still not quite how it used to be.

Battle Spirit took care of that, but, ok, I concede your point. Let me rephrase it: "Snipe is currently not an efficient gank tool, and it's not making a comeback." If 5 people sniping the same guy is your idea of effective, well... Poison Injection has the same effect and it's faster, but if the guy doesn't die and manages to recover you will.

It's making a comeback because of the Asylum bow...

Banks have doors, so by your comparison its ok to rob them.

To be honest I don't quite understand the comparison ...

You are saying the API allows it, so everything is fair game.

Banks have doors, so robbing them must be fair game.

See where that kind of slippery logic fails? Just because something is possible, doesnt mean it should be done.

Ah, I see what you mean, no, that's just you being ignorant, but don't worry, ignorance is a perfectly valid state of mind: you don't know about something, you learn something.

API stands for Application Programming Interface, they are devices the developers of a closed system, use to interface with that closed system, and plugins developers use to develop plugins to add functionalities to that system.

So, no, your argument is definitely a straw man, because you're comparing a closed system (the game engine) with an open system (a bank). It would be more accurate to say:
"ATMs have an interface, so by your definition is fair to try to rob an ATM".

Here's where the fallacy is: in order to do that you need a 3rd party software (e.g. Cheat Engine), because the ATM's API do not allow for a withdraw without the associated device (credit/debit card) and a correct PIN.

The APIs only allow for things within the bounds of what the closed system's developers intend, which means a robbery can't happen.

If a robbery could happen it meant there's a pretty big flaw in the infrastructure of the door, or that a robbery was indeed allowed.

Hope this helps.
Have a good day.

Wrong. With the bank comparison you need a weapon to rob it. Same with the API, you need an add on to exploit it ( gun ). The comparison stands.

It becomes a situation of

can I VS should I

I CAN rob a bank, but should I?
I CAN burn that house down, but should I?

etc.

Aisle9

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Cheating? Perhaps not per se, but abusing something that isn't really functioning as intended could be called exploiting and that's where the line starts to get blurry. But yeah, everyone sees that differently I guess.

If it's in the APIs, it can be used, if it's not intended it's up to the devs to change it.

So if there's a bug in the game it can be used & it's up to the devs to change it? Thanks for that bit of insight, still doesn't change the fact that it can be (and is by many) considered exploiting.

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

This I vehemently disagree with - Snipe was an awesome ganking tool back in 2014/2015 when you could combo it with Heavy Attack & Poison Injection, which would all land at the same time (Snipe had a 3s cast time, longer travel time & there existed a skill called "Haste" that let you cast heavy attacks faster as NB).

Here's just an example from those days: https://youtu.be/MILkeZ1MMdc?t=1m10s


Snipe is making somewhat of a comeback now thanks to Asylum Bow, so bow finally has some killing potential again (especially with Miats gone), but it's still not quite how it used to be.

Battle Spirit took care of that, but, ok, I concede your point. Let me rephrase it: "Snipe is currently not an efficient gank tool, and it's not making a comeback." If 5 people sniping the same guy is your idea of effective, well... Poison Injection has the same effect and it's faster, but if the guy doesn't die and manages to recover you will.

It's making a comeback because of the Asylum bow...


BTW, I think you missed this part:

Dorrino wrote: »

[..]So what exactly will be different after the update goes live:

You won't see:
1. heavy attacks of any sort,
2. ambush and dizzying swing before they land,
3. start of snipes, dark flares, crystal frags.

You will see:
All ranged attacks when they fire. Including snipes, flares and frags.[..]

I guess you're not aware of how the combo works then?


Here's an example (albeit on a low CP target):
https://youtu.be/R63jwNgGvk4

I understand how functionally could work, I'm saying it's limited to a very small amount of targets and puts you in a dangerous spot. Acid spray requires you to be close to the target, removing most of the advantages snipe gives you (extreme range), and if you don't kill your target you're too squishy to defend yourself.

24k snipe won't be possible on a target of equal CP or in a no CP campaign, and here's a possible comeback: Immovable pot, healing ward, piercing mark. That's my personal since I main magblade, but, eh that's what I have access to.

After that you're dead meat, I can follow with anything, clench most likely. You can dodge clench, true, but my clench costs less than you avoiding it.

Snipe doesn't have a CC, like incap has, you don't have fracture and you don't have close combat safety measures except for shade and ... are you using Manifestation of Terror ? I'd personally go with trap and Mass Hysteria, but I guess it works for you...

The only minor advantage is Defile, but that's it. If I can react I have all the advantages: gap closers and CC, and if you're in close combat you're dead.

I guess that's the case with most 1shot gank builds, but that doesn't look like an exceptionally good 1shot gank.

I rest my case.

Aisle9

Jade1986 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Cheating? Perhaps not per se, but abusing something that isn't really functioning as intended could be called exploiting and that's where the line starts to get blurry. But yeah, everyone sees that differently I guess.

If it's in the APIs, it can be used, if it's not intended it's up to the devs to change it.

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

This I vehemently disagree with - Snipe was an awesome ganking tool back in 2014/2015 when you could combo it with Heavy Attack & Poison Injection, which would all land at the same time (Snipe had a 3s cast time, longer travel time & there existed a skill called "Haste" that let you cast heavy attacks faster as NB).

Here's just an example from those days: https://youtu.be/MILkeZ1MMdc?t=1m10s


Snipe is making somewhat of a comeback now thanks to Asylum Bow, so bow finally has some killing potential again (especially with Miats gone), but it's still not quite how it used to be.

Battle Spirit took care of that, but, ok, I concede your point. Let me rephrase it: "Snipe is currently not an efficient gank tool, and it's not making a comeback." If 5 people sniping the same guy is your idea of effective, well... Poison Injection has the same effect and it's faster, but if the guy doesn't die and manages to recover you will.

It's making a comeback because of the Asylum bow...

Banks have doors, so by your comparison its ok to rob them.

To be honest I don't quite understand the comparison ...

You are saying the API allows it, so everything is fair game.

Banks have doors, so robbing them must be fair game.

See where that kind of slippery logic fails? Just because something is possible, doesnt mean it should be done.

Ah, I see what you mean, no, that's just you being ignorant, but don't worry, ignorance is a perfectly valid state of mind: you don't know about something, you learn something.

API stands for Application Programming Interface, they are devices the developers of a closed system, use to interface with that closed system, and plugins developers use to develop plugins to add functionalities to that system.

So, no, your argument is definitely a straw man, because you're comparing a closed system (the game engine) with an open system (a bank). It would be more accurate to say:
"ATMs have an interface, so by your definition is fair to try to rob an ATM".

Here's where the fallacy is: in order to do that you need a 3rd party software (e.g. Cheat Engine), because the ATM's API do not allow for a withdraw without the associated device (credit/debit card) and a correct PIN.

The APIs only allow for things within the bounds of what the closed system's developers intend, which means a robbery can't happen.

If a robbery could happen it meant there's a pretty big flaw in the infrastructure of the door, or that a robbery was indeed allowed.

Hope this helps.
Have a good day.

Wrong. With the bank comparison you need a weapon to rob it. Same with the API, you need an add on to exploit it ( gun ). The comparison stands.

It becomes a situation of

can I VS should I

I CAN rob a bank, but should I?
I CAN burn that house down, but should I?

etc.

Except a bank (I thought I explained why your comparison was not correct, but, ok, let's stick with it) won't allow for a gun inside, and robbing an ATM at gunpoint ... that would be hilarious.

So, no, sorry.

BTW, I think you don't quite understand the difference between injecting code (Cheat Engine) and using an API call (Miat's). One does something that is not allowed by the game, exploiting a vulnerability, the other uses tools the developers provided.

Aisle9

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Cheating? Perhaps not per se, but abusing something that isn't really functioning as intended could be called exploiting and that's where the line starts to get blurry. But yeah, everyone sees that differently I guess.

If it's in the APIs, it can be used, if it's not intended it's up to the devs to change it.

So if there's a bug in the game it can be used & it's up to the devs to change it? Thanks for that bit of insight, still doesn't change the fact that it can be (and is by many) considered exploiting.

If there's a bug ingame that could lead to exploitation it should be reported so that it can be fixed, yes, that's correct. I thought everybody knew that...

danno8

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Swtor never allowed addons , Lotro no Addons allowed . There's others that are older games still alive that never allowed access to the API . It's not all over western MMOs . Eastern MMOs are smart and do a lot more to prevent Cheatimg .

www.lotrointerface.com/

LotRO has had addons since the beginning.:)

DDuke

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Cheating? Perhaps not per se, but abusing something that isn't really functioning as intended could be called exploiting and that's where the line starts to get blurry. But yeah, everyone sees that differently I guess.

If it's in the APIs, it can be used, if it's not intended it's up to the devs to change it.

So if there's a bug in the game it can be used & it's up to the devs to change it? Thanks for that bit of insight, still doesn't change the fact that it can be (and is by many) considered exploiting.

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

This I vehemently disagree with - Snipe was an awesome ganking tool back in 2014/2015 when you could combo it with Heavy Attack & Poison Injection, which would all land at the same time (Snipe had a 3s cast time, longer travel time & there existed a skill called "Haste" that let you cast heavy attacks faster as NB).

Here's just an example from those days: https://youtu.be/MILkeZ1MMdc?t=1m10s


Snipe is making somewhat of a comeback now thanks to Asylum Bow, so bow finally has some killing potential again (especially with Miats gone), but it's still not quite how it used to be.

Battle Spirit took care of that, but, ok, I concede your point. Let me rephrase it: "Snipe is currently not an efficient gank tool, and it's not making a comeback." If 5 people sniping the same guy is your idea of effective, well... Poison Injection has the same effect and it's faster, but if the guy doesn't die and manages to recover you will.

It's making a comeback because of the Asylum bow...


BTW, I think you missed this part:

Dorrino wrote: »

[..]So what exactly will be different after the update goes live:

You won't see:
1. heavy attacks of any sort,
2. ambush and dizzying swing before they land,
3. start of snipes, dark flares, crystal frags.

You will see:
All ranged attacks when they fire. Including snipes, flares and frags.[..]

I guess you're not aware of how the combo works then?


Here's an example (albeit on a low CP target):
https://youtu.be/R63jwNgGvk4

I understand how functionally could work, I'm saying it's limited to a very small amount of targets and puts you in a dangerous spot. Acid spray requires you to be close to the target, removing most of the advantages snipe gives you (extreme range), and if you don't kill your target you're too squishy to defend yourself.

24k snipe won't be possible on a target of equal CP or in a no CP campaign, and here's a possible comeback: Immovable pot, healing ward, piercing mark. That's my personal since I main magblade, but, eh that's what I have access to.

After that you're dead meat, I can follow with anything, clench most likely. You can dodge clench, true, but my clench costs less than you avoiding it.

Yep, it's "only" around 18k crits+the Acid Spray on light armor targets.

I've even critted a 5/1/1 heavy S&B full impen character for 20k, though that was with 5 Hawk Eye stacks (not practical for ganking).

I'm painfully aware of the survivability of medium armor, it's not that different with melee builds either.

Still, this is as good as anything out there for ganking

Aisle9 wrote: »

Snipe doesn't have a CC, like incap has, you don't have fracture and you don't have close combat safety measures except for shade and ... are you using Manifestation of Terror ? I'd personally go with trap and Mass Hysteria, but I guess it works for you...

The only minor advantage is Defile, but that's it. If I can react I have all the advantages: gap closers and CC, and if you're in close combat you're dead.

Yeah, the lack of a ranged CC to combo your snipes with is the other major problem with bow builds - only stamplars can somewhat reliably combo them with javs.
I made a thread on the PTS forums regarding this...

Basicly you're a bit too reliant on that initial damage from sneak (and the stun) when playing with bow.

Oh, and Manifestation of Terror is definitely a better morph for a bow build. It's there to counter those gap closers & can "sort of" act as a ranged CC if you lure people into them (meaning you can time snipe+acid spray with that).

A melee range CC would be a 100% defensive one only on a bow build since you're not going to start casting a snipe in melee range after fearing someone...

Aisle9 wrote: »

I guess that's the case with most 1shot gank builds, but that doesn't look like an exceptionally good 1shot gank.

I rest my case.

There are no "exceptionally good 1shot ganks", not anymore.

But this is the most burst damage you can get with bow, and it's more than the popular Bow Heavy->Ambush+Incap melee gank builds.

danno8

Aisle9 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

"Addons are cheating" = The idiotic argument of ignorant people.

In order to cheat you need a 3rd party software that injects data packets = A piece of software that does something not allowed by the game client.

Addons use the provided API to display the results.

Please let's try to be accurate and avoid spreading misinformations.

The argument regarding whether or not they should be allowed at all is another bag of cats, the use of Addons has been a boon for game developers that quickly found out they can outsource fixes and personalizations to the community for free. They are not going anywhere.

Cheating? Perhaps not per se, but abusing something that isn't really functioning as intended could be called exploiting and that's where the line starts to get blurry. But yeah, everyone sees that differently I guess.

If it's in the APIs, it can be used, if it's not intended it's up to the devs to change it.

DDuke wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Snipe was never and it will never be a good device to efficiently gank, unless you only gank the squishiests of the squishiests with the slowests of the horses, and only while on horseback. I don't even need a KOS function, any sniper is always on my top priority list just because of snipe.

This I vehemently disagree with - Snipe was an awesome ganking tool back in 2014/2015 when you could combo it with Heavy Attack & Poison Injection, which would all land at the same time (Snipe had a 3s cast time, longer travel time & there existed a skill called "Haste" that let you cast heavy attacks faster as NB).

Here's just an example from those days: https://youtu.be/MILkeZ1MMdc?t=1m10s


Snipe is making somewhat of a comeback now thanks to Asylum Bow, so bow finally has some killing potential again (especially with Miats gone), but it's still not quite how it used to be.

Battle Spirit took care of that, but, ok, I concede your point. Let me rephrase it: "Snipe is currently not an efficient gank tool, and it's not making a comeback." If 5 people sniping the same guy is your idea of effective, well... Poison Injection has the same effect and it's faster, but if the guy doesn't die and manages to recover you will.

It's making a comeback because of the Asylum bow...

Banks have doors, so by your comparison its ok to rob them.

To be honest I don't quite understand the comparison ...

Sounds like a straw man, I could be wrong about that, but sounds like one...

No, you are correct. A strawman is when someone presents an argument that superficially seems the same as the actual argument as a comparison, but they always leave out a critical point.

In this case the critical point is that robbing a bank is illegal, whereas using the addon is not. They would clearly like it to be though.

If ZoS at any point said "don't use this addon, as we consider it to be cheating" then they would have a point. But of course they never said that.

stojekarcub18_ESO

Awwwww, cheat killed. People gonna be pissed. Though, that's the thing. Yeah, it was a cheat, but EVERYONE had access to it. Meh. I could care less either way.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

its not fix so we just have to take the higher ground and live with it, it needs to be stopped by zos, but since they are allowing this cheat we just have to gang (all attack that person) up on those using it, which can be clearly seen in game, this is cheating. Its like having a fight with someone and you have to say where you are throwing ur fist so they know, they will simple move out of the way

Nemeliom

I don't believe it's a cheat, but still it's completely unfair to have that addon working. It's not Miat's fault, he just used what was at hand, even if we don't like it.
I believe that ZOS never did something about it because the complains towards gankers was WAAAY higher than the complains for Miats addon. And since they didn't know what to do about it, they just say "oops... we don't know how to work around Miats addon. We will see that in the future".