UPDATED: So... about those Crown Crates in light of Belgium's ruling that they are gambling

Iselin

@ZOS_GinaBruno

I hope I'm posting this in the correct forum - it seems like a general topic to me.

The Belgium Gaming Commission has ruled (rather quickly) that yes, loot boxes constitute a form of gambling and they will be seeking that the EU ban them. They focused on the SWBF2 and Overwatch systems but, as I understand it, the ruling is more general than that.

https://www.mmorpg.com/news/belgium-rules-loot-boxes-are-gambling-seeks-to-have-an-eu-ban-implmented-1000046476

IMO, this is a long way from over but it IS a first.

I doubt there will be an official ZOS statement about this but I'm "atting" Gina just in case they do want to comment.

What do the rest of you think?

UPDATE: It seems clear now that The Belgian cabinet minister jumped the gun and there is in fact no final ruling by the Gaming Commision. News sites are blaming faulty translation for what they reported as a done deal. (that did seem rather quick to me)

RELATED: Meanwhile in Hawaii a State Representative is jumping into the fray guns blasting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_akwfRuL4os

Casterial

Well.... Quite stupid to try and ban anything in a game in an entire country.

Loot boxes, yes they're gambling. So are bags in-game? If they wanna ban them then the companies like Blizzard may say "Overwatch makes no money here. Close the servers."

Stovahkiin

A dead flea could tell people that these kind of crates are gambling. And while I agree that they are a disease in the gaming community, I doubt these rulings will accomplish much overall.

These gambling systems and micro transactions make too much money for companies like Zeni and EA for them to simply say “ok, I guess we’ll stop”. Chances are they’ll weasel their way out of making any change whatsoever.

craigr02

Interesting article, and video. Good to see, but bad for game developers who probably make a bunch of cash on llot boxes

KingMagaw

If it ever comes to a vote i will be voting to ban clown crates/any form of real life money gambling in any game.


There is nothing wrong with listing an item with a price tag. These Radiant Apex rewards are a predatory system that is designed to drain way more money that the actual worth of them.

Companies may not make AS MUCH money without the crates but they still turn a healthy profit. Re-skinning a digital mount with the most minimal of time and selling it for £22/each reinforces the massive profit gained that items via crown store.

code65536

The Crown Store is fine. Here's a set price. For a specific item that you want.

Crown Crates is gambling. You don't know what you are paying for. You might get something great. You might get trash. You might get the one specific item that you want. Or you might get two dozen items that are nice, but not what you were looking for.

Game studios want revenue? No problem with that. Just sell stuff like every other retailer in the real world.

Draxius82

So... the gaming industry is going to be linked to the gambling addiction hotline now.

ManwithBeard9

Well, at least we wont hear anymore arguments for NA vs EU once they ban the game in Europe.

zaria

Casterial wrote: »

Well.... Quite stupid to try and ban anything in a game in an entire country.

Loot boxes, yes they're gambling. So are bags in-game? If they wanna ban them then the companies like Blizzard may say "Overwatch makes no money here. Close the servers."

Loot you get from enemies is grinding not gambling its just random.
Issue is real money, and that you have no fixed prices, worse the chances are not known nor verified. later is illegal in Japan I think, and running an casino or lottery with unknown odds will you get shut down fast and hard.

Now EA in their standard stupidity evil greedy fashion managed to suck the duck again.
Backlash was not crates it was obvious P2W in an very popular AAA franchise.
yes the idiot crates and insane high prices because of rng helped a lot.

And yes showing drop chances on stuff like crown crates should be mandatory.

mb10

Well yes of course its gambling its like a lottery and feeds off the human mind via addiction.

When you then consider that children play these games then you begin to understand the threat it causes not just children but adults too.

Loot boxes are a cancer to the gaming industry and are the epitomy of greed. Banning it in the EU would be a huge step in forcing gaming companies to stop altogether.

Look, I dont mind paying real money for items but dont tell me I might get the item I want if I pay.
Most of the time that "might" is genuinely about 2% chance or less.

zaria

KingMagaw wrote: »

If it ever comes to a vote i will be voting to ban clown crates/any form of real life money gambling in any game.


There is nothing wrong with listing an item with a price tag. These Radiant Apex rewards are a predatory system that is designed to drain way more money that the actual worth of them.

Companies may not make AS MUCH money without the crates but they still turn a healthy profit. Re-skinning a digital mount with the most minimal of time and selling it for £22/each reinforces the massive profit gained that items via crown store.

On the other hand its also an obvious idiot tax, yes also an I'm rich tax.
Not that its anything wrong with exploiting the rich who can afford it nor the stupid who are annoying.

mb10

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

Acrolas

I wonder how our marketing director feels about that ruling.

Oh. Wait. She left.



I don't mind the crates anymore, as there are more cosmetics in circulation than any one account could possibly ever have use for. But if duplicate item rewards didn't exist at all, it would be a much more comfortable system. Then ZOS could just offer a 'case' bundle which would give you enough crates for one of each unique item. That's how 'real world' collecting tends to work. If you're a serious collector, you grab a sealed retail case while eliminates all the hassle of hunting individual items down.

Nothing's really stopping ZOS from building a better system than they were left with...

Draxius82

This is why I don't visit casinos. I do not like giving my money away. Nor do I like parting with my money for something I didn't want.

However, I do like that model ZOS has chosen. As I do want to support them so I do via a subscription. I will also spend crowns on costumes and fluff items. I will never spend money on a studio that adopts p2w.

geonsocal

popcorn ready thread...indeed...

Iselin

Draxius82 wrote: »

This is why I don't visit casinos. I do not like giving my money away. Nor do I like parting with my money for something I didn't want.

However, I do like that model ZOS has chosen. As I do want to support them so I do via a subscription. I will also spend crowns on costumes and fluff items. I will never spend money on a studio that adopts p2w.

I have been here for almost 4 years now with just a couple of short breaks (Archeage and Black Desert... my bad ) and I've been happily subbing most of that time. It always was and continues to be a fair system to support the MMORPGs we play.

It's the "F2P is cool, subs suck" crowd that has led to the morally dubious mess we're in.

FloppyTouch

Crown crates do offer gems so it’s more like a more expensive way to buy the same things not really gambling if you no the cost. It’s about 200$ usd to get about 400 gems or you might get one for free. After that 200$ it takes less and less to get to 400 gems bc everything starts to become doubles.

My issue it that this system was very fair and NOT GAMBLING but the new mounts they added had made it gambling to get more money. Now and only now are the crown crates gambling.

disintegr8

Have never seen the point of Crown Crates other than to make money for ZOS. Considering there is nothing in them of any real value or benefit in game for long time players, I don't buy them.

Be interesting to see how they could ban them from one country or a particular region - people who want them would still find a way to get them.

Draxius82

It's the "F2P is cool, subs suck" crowd that has led to the morally dubious mess we're in.

This right here. I've never understood that logic. The sheer amount of entertainment you get for 15/m is well worth that price. Always has been.

But these same people that complained also spend two or three times that for a movie for an average of 2 hours of possible entertainment.

If 15 a month broke the bank for me, I would need to reevaluate some things in my life.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

zaria wrote: »

KingMagaw wrote: »

If it ever comes to a vote i will be voting to ban clown crates/any form of real life money gambling in any game.


There is nothing wrong with listing an item with a price tag. These Radiant Apex rewards are a predatory system that is designed to drain way more money that the actual worth of them.

Companies may not make AS MUCH money without the crates but they still turn a healthy profit. Re-skinning a digital mount with the most minimal of time and selling it for £22/each reinforces the massive profit gained that items via crown store.

On the other hand its also an obvious idiot tax, yes also an I'm rich tax.
Not that its anything wrong with exploiting the rich who can afford it nor the stupid who are annoying.

Guess you can’t say nothing wrong with it anymore. Turns out it might be illegal some places.

Highstake

This box thing is a double-edged sword. It looks lika kinda gambling, yes, but rather than other p2w games, we should say "God bless u ZOS, for not making the boxes and the microtransactions as the base of everything", they are just and addtional trivial part of the game.
ZOS didnt pack anything really useful inside those boxes (they are mostly skins, mounts, etc) to make a big difference in both pve or pvp. Yet. Shhhhhh....

BlazingDynamo

Battlefront is pay to win. Eso is not. Big difference. Zos has nothing to worry about.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Battlefront is pay to win. Eso is not. Big difference. Zos has nothing to worry about.

Yeah that is how a lot of gamers feel. But depends on how they make their ruling. From the short summary it sounds like Belgium doesn’t care if there is a difference. They still see it as gambling. So Zos might actually have something to worry about, if that is correct and that feeling/ruling spreads.

MattT1988

I have no sympathy for any company that makes money off of people gambling. Good on Belgium I say, I hope more countries follow suit.

Iselin

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Battlefront is pay to win. Eso is not. Big difference. Zos has nothing to worry about.

I understand the difference and for what I like in games (as honest an even playing field as can be designed) it makes a huge difference.

But IMO, over-emphasizing that difference is disrespectful to other players who like other things in their games - namely those things that are inside the crates.

I don't feel comfortable with a game that holds them hostage even if they don't do it to me.

Mureel

This game has nothing but convenience/trash/cosmetics in the boxes!

It's great that those of you who think you deserve everything free, bought boxes and didn't get the APEX prizes (when you should know better!) try to make this into a BIG THING that it isn't!

I wish more entitled people would be taught that life isn't free and not everybody gets a trophy!

Also; no one 'can get them' if they don't exist on EU server numbnuts.

I SERIOUSLY HOPE they DO remove boxes - then jack up your membership/DLC/Cosmetic Items costs to make up the difference they projected with crown crates. As you say: I don;t like the crates/vote with your wallet! I cannot WAIT to see the salt if that happens. lol.

Really the lot of you are being very immature about something stupid and utterly unnecessary in game and the issue is; when there are no more whales to pay for your free gaming? You won't have it anymore.

There is nothing OF VALUE in those crates at all.

I don't work for ZOS and I don't buy crates other than with my crowns from sub.

Mureel

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Crown crates do offer gems so it’s more like a more expensive way to buy the same things not really gambling if you no the cost. It’s about 200$ usd to get about 400 gems or you might get one for free. After that 200$ it takes less and less to get to 400 gems bc everything starts to become doubles.

My issue it that this system was very fair and NOT GAMBLING but the new mounts they added had made it gambling to get more money. Now and only now are the crown crates gambling.

If they weren't before they aren't now - cosmetics mount skins do not change something into GAMBLING any more than my standing in a garage turns me into a car.

Narvuntien

Now I have written many posts in defense of mircotransactions and the crown store. About how if you want something from the crown store you have to make good financial desicions for yourself. Done well mircotransactions help both money rich time poor and the time rich money poor players and everything in between.

but... crown crates are gambling.

Perhaps they need a warning, someway to make it clear they are gambling, perhaps age resitrictions somehow. I like the suggestion of posting the odds as well.

I mean opening Magic the gathering booster packs is gambling as well but at least you kind of know the odds.

I don't know what game started the loot box, money making scheme but I don't really like it, as opposed to a mircotransaction systems which are fine as long as they are not pay to win.

MinarasLaure

The thing about crown crates is that nothing is guaranteed.
All they need to do is add one single guaranteed item and leave the rest random
Problem solved

Jarryzzt

To be sure, we are talking about one EU member thus far - Belgium. To get any regulation of this kind adopted on an EU-wide basis is typically an exercise in bureaucratic obstructionism that lasts for the better part of a given decade. And the article didn't say about any legislative action inside Belgium itself. So the sky isn't falling quite yet.

Plus, the Brits are leaving. Of course, the way they are doing it they might not have any planes flying the morning after, but at least they'll still have their loot boxes. [Unless parliament finally decides to go after the whole "online gambling" sector, which some have been urging it to do for a while - but that's a much broader discussion in itself.]

Besides which, in the absolute worst case scenario (loot box ban worldwide, penalty of death by firing squad, French commissars overseeing video game developer teams like back in the revolutionary days, et cetera), the whole sticking point seems to be randomization of loot. I quote the article that the MMORPG.com page ultimately links to: "Minister of Justice wants to ban purchases in video games, if you do not know what exactly you are about with that purchase." [Thank you, Google Translate. You blithering sods.] Fine, now you get to directly purchase that one item you were hoping to roll, but for - I don't know, 10-50 times the cost of a single loot box to reflect its rarity slash market demand. Presumably Belgium's Minister of Justice will then declare some form of victory, possibly marked by a parade culminating with a mass *** in the parliamentary chambers.

As I've said above, the sky isn't falling quite yet.

----

What I really want to know is why, why the Minister of Justice - one Koen Geens, of the local version of Christian Democrats (center-right-ish with a moralist twist, I presume) - bothers. Surely loot boxes cannot be some sort of a scourge sweeping the...glens and heaths...or something...of Belgium, reaping a grisly harvest among its youth. I know next to nothing about Belgian politics, well, aside from the Franco-Flemish split, but ordinarily an elected minister would announce something like this because a) it makes them look as if they are doing something; and b) they do not actually have to do anything (not the least as they can use EU bureaucracy as an excuse). "Look at me, see how vigorously I am defending your children against...scourges." Just seems daft to me, the whole thing does.

Slick_007

mb10 wrote: »

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

W.T.F. ?

this has to be the dumbest analogy of all time. of ALL time.

maybe, just maybe, if they advertised for $100 you MIGHT get the jacket and might not, it might be remotely not the dumbest thing ever said on these forums. But as is, its so utterly dumb i lost IQ reading what you wrote.

Anyone who says 'i paid for <item name>' when dealing with crown crates isnt far behind that. Because thats not what you did. You did NOT buy <item name>. unless item name = random item. You bought a random item from a list of items. If you cant see that, then you should not have access to the credit card you bought crowns with, or however you paid.