UPDATED: So... about those Crown Crates in light of Belgium's ruling that they are gambling

Huyen

Iselin wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

I hope I'm posting this in the correct forum - it seems like a general topic to me.

The Belgium Gaming Commission has ruled (rather quickly) that yes, loot boxes constitute a form of gambling and they will be seeking that the EU ban them. They focused on the SWBF2 and Overwatch systems but, as I understand it, the ruling is more general than that.

https://www.mmorpg.com/news/belgium-rules-loot-boxes-are-gambling-seeks-to-have-an-eu-ban-implmented-1000046476

IMO, this is a long way from over but it IS a first.

I doubt there will be an official ZOS statement about this but I'm "atting" Gina just in case they do want to comment.

What do the rest of you think?

ZoS, EA and Blizzard wont change it, because they operate under American Law, and not EU laws. So nothing will change in the end.

altemriel

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

The sooner these boxes stop in the industry the better.

The sooner these boxes stop, the industry collapses.

You should understand it. It's not only the mount that is cool. It's its limited availability that makes it so desirable. What's the point of showing off something if everyone can have it. I have only seen a couple of plague horses and seches so far. One is mine. I am not a huge fan of it to be honest, but I love people whispering me where did you get it? Bla bla bla. Yea because you can't have them with gems and they do not even appear in the store.

It's pure gambling, yes. You can't even make the math to see how much it would cost you buying crates and converting the drops to gems.

Would I buy the plague horse or the frost senche with gems? No. But it feels great so see that practically none has them.

well, not everyone needs to show off something. I want some mount because I like it, I do not care about others.

but I do not participate in the crown crates gamble, I got my cinder wolf mount during the free crown crates event (at the beginning of the crates season)

Alchemical

Huyen wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

I hope I'm posting this in the correct forum - it seems like a general topic to me.

The Belgium Gaming Commission has ruled (rather quickly) that yes, loot boxes constitute a form of gambling and they will be seeking that the EU ban them. They focused on the SWBF2 and Overwatch systems but, as I understand it, the ruling is more general than that.

https://www.mmorpg.com/news/belgium-rules-loot-boxes-are-gambling-seeks-to-have-an-eu-ban-implmented-1000046476

IMO, this is a long way from over but it IS a first.

I doubt there will be an official ZOS statement about this but I'm "atting" Gina just in case they do want to comment.

What do the rest of you think?

ZoS, EA and Blizzard wont change it, because they operate under American Law, and not EU laws. So nothing will change in the end.

Blizzard, EA, and ZoS have European servers and if they want to continue selling their games in Europe, will have to comply with their regulations.

LadyAstrum

Iselin wrote: »

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

The sooner these boxes stop in the industry the better.

The sooner these boxes stop, the industry collapses.

A bit melodramatic, don't you think?

I don't know how old you are but I remember a vital industry long before these became a thing. Monthly subs used to do the trick.

But then, that was before the whole industry became controlled by a bunch of greedy old men who don't even play games. Maybe THAT industry needs to collapse so we can get back to games by gamers for gamers... just a thought.

Couldn't agree more. Greedy goblins in suits who probably loath games and see gamers as money bags with legs need to go back to banking or playing the stock market, and let those who actually give a damn about the integrity of gaming take the reigns.

Raudgrani

How can it be "gambling", when you are guaranteed to win every time, on every single draw? If you don't get what you want, that's another issue. But you never go empty handed.

randomkeyhits

Mureel wrote: »

randomkeyhits wrote: »

Malnutrition wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling.

When I was a kid, we'd go to the local carnival and I'd always go to the booth with the grab bags. Plain paper sack, which held one of the multitude of items they had in the rotation. You pay a fee and grab a bag and you either got something you felt was neat or crap. So it was up to you if you wanted to buy another surprise grab bag. That is not gambling. You're always getting something for your money regardless of whether it ends up being pretty neat or crap.

It may be a gamble (copy pasta: take risky action in the hope of a desired result) but it is not gambling in the sense that you're risking money for a financial gain.

Getting stuff does not mean that its not gambling. It is. Very much so.

Dictionary definition of gambling "take risky action in the hope of a desired result."

Now if you are happy with getting the potions then its a cheap and successful gamble, good on you.

If you are after an apex mount or a specific reward then it can become a very expensive or unsuccessful gamble, bad luck for you.

Whether cheap or expensive, successful or not, it is still gambling

LOL! How is this game doing that?

meh i was going to write a bunch of stuff about this again - but whatever.

Keep thinking that it's everyone else's fault if someone makes bad choices for nothing more than fluff and then cries when they didn't get the fluff.

There's no requirement to buy these and no reason to, either.

If you can't see that this is gambling then no amount of words on my part will change that.

I never mentioned fault or blame or anything like that. This was simply stating clearly that crates are gambling.

Sure, ZOS don't actually mug me, rip the cash from my wallet and toss crates in my lap, any I buy are because I choose to and I never even hinted otherwise.

My personal take is I dislike crown crates because I don't know the odds (official) and I can't make an informed decision. I'm prepared to try for any item that I like that has a crown gem equivalent because I know the rough upper cost of getting it. Those radiant apex though? absolutely off the table. If I got one through sheer luck then great but in no way would I ever consider even trying for one.

maboleth

As long as these are purely cosmetic only items, I'm totally fine with it.

Nobody, I mean, NOTHING is forcing you to buy the crates. All the content is there for you to play, no game-changing stuff hidden behind the paywalls. As long as P2W stays out of this game I'm good.

Also if Crates keep P2W at bay, so be it.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, *saves lives*. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a *damn* what you think you are entitled to! "

People complaining about crates should either enjoy the show or walk away. It's that small percentage of people that keep the show running.

Samadhi

Turelus wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

Not quite. You do get the gems.

That defence fell apart when ZOS got greedy and added Radient Apex items.

What are radiant apex items? Didn't know that at all.

maboleth they're the new top tier mounts and the sweetroll housing item. They've been in the last season, current season and will be in next.
They can't be purchased for gems (don't show up in the gems buying area) meaning the only way to get them is to keep buying crates.
One member of our community made a thread that they opened over 1,000 crates and didn't get the item they wanted still.

Thanks Turelus. Yeah, I agree, that's too much. Probably reserved to whales though. Who in their own sane mind would want to invest hundreds, even thousands of euros for something like this?

I purchased a second pack because "maybe one more try" then stopped. They made extra off of me due to this.

I don't like blaming it all on "whales" because it's not the fault of the consumer and we should stop blaming one another or saying it's the fault of the weak. Crates from their start (in all games) have been designed around making us the consumer pay more money than we want.

Yes we can not buy anything, but they could also be honest and respectful and just list everything as stand alone purchases which don't mean those of us with money we want to spend (without gambling) can actually have items we desire again.

I would throw £25 at ZOS for the Plague Horse mount, that's an absurd amount of money for a mount but I would do that if I could get the mount I wanted. However in the current form I am not going to spend £1,000 on the chance of a mount.

The sooner these boxes stop in the industry the better.

Yes it absolutely is your fault. You spent the money. No one made you do that except you wanted some rare cosmetic fluff and didn't get it and then spent yet more money for possibility of fluff - that was you and no one else.

People blaming everyone else for their own choices is what makes everything a mess.

I admit my own faults. However let's stop this BS where we blame each other and say it's the fault of the weak willed.

The people who make these crates, the companies who push them because they know full well it will have that effect on the weak willed are the ones who are at fault.

But no, it's easier to pretend we're better than others and blame each other whilst the big companies continue to exploit us you're right.

The "weak willed" are at fault tho
as much so as the companies
microtransactions and lootboxes have prospered because they have been responded to well in a financial sense

people who spend thousands then cry about spending thousands and not getting what they want still spend the thousands encouraging the model
the issue of marketing to children is a different one tho

There are a few branches that make this interesting tho,
the concerns of children v. gambling in gaming is a major branch pertaining specifically to loot boxes
but the article also mentioned

From all reports the Belgians are hoping to ban all forms of in-game purchases straight up.

this could have the potential to really shake things up,
if loot boxes get banned we will just see more high-price exclusive flash sales to artificially inflate rarity that way
but if all 'in-game purchases' manage to be impacted
then it would be a matter of finding out whether policy facilitates simply having the cash shop system appear on the website and send items to your in-game account afterward (thus still having loot box style sales)

There are a few directions this may take -- it may also ultimately not go anywhere

Alchemical

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

People complaining about crates should either enjoy the show or walk away. It's that small percentage of people that keep the show running.

Or, hear me out, they could just sell items for a predetermined price like all other commerce and make money that way! Wouldn't that be novel?

Marabornwingrion

Awesome news

Turelus

Samadhi wrote: »

this could have the potential to really shake things up,
if loot boxes get banned we will just see more high-price exclusive flash sales to artificially inflate rarity that way
but if all 'in-game purchases' manage to be impacted
then it would be a matter of finding out whether policy facilitates simply having the cash shop system appear on the website and send items to your in-game account afterward (thus still having loot box style sales)

There are a few directions this may take -- it may also ultimately not go anywhere

You know what, even though it's still BS marketing that I can deal with. At least we can see what we're paying for and not paying for a chance at the thing we actually wanted.

ookami007

Huyen wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

I hope I'm posting this in the correct forum - it seems like a general topic to me.

The Belgium Gaming Commission has ruled (rather quickly) that yes, loot boxes constitute a form of gambling and they will be seeking that the EU ban them. They focused on the SWBF2 and Overwatch systems but, as I understand it, the ruling is more general than that.

https://www.mmorpg.com/news/belgium-rules-loot-boxes-are-gambling-seeks-to-have-an-eu-ban-implmented-1000046476

IMO, this is a long way from over but it IS a first.

I doubt there will be an official ZOS statement about this but I'm "atting" Gina just in case they do want to comment.

What do the rest of you think?

ZoS, EA and Blizzard wont change it, because they operate under American Law, and not EU laws. So nothing will change in the end.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but while the companies may be based out of the US, if they do business in another country, they ARE subject to their laws... just look at judgement against Google, Apple, etc.. all US based companies. And... if they get them banned in the EU, that's a HUGE market they won't want to miss out on.

My guess is, they'll simply remove them from those countries. And if they do, that means they'll need to figure a way to increase revenue to make up for the lost crate revenue.

Mureel

Turelus wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

Not quite. You do get the gems.

That defence fell apart when ZOS got greedy and added Radient Apex items.

What are radiant apex items? Didn't know that at all.

maboleth they're the new top tier mounts and the sweetroll housing item. They've been in the last season, current season and will be in next.
They can't be purchased for gems (don't show up in the gems buying area) meaning the only way to get them is to keep buying crates.
One member of our community made a thread that they opened over 1,000 crates and didn't get the item they wanted still.

Thanks Turelus. Yeah, I agree, that's too much. Probably reserved to whales though. Who in their own sane mind would want to invest hundreds, even thousands of euros for something like this?

I purchased a second pack because "maybe one more try" then stopped. They made extra off of me due to this.

I don't like blaming it all on "whales" because it's not the fault of the consumer and we should stop blaming one another or saying it's the fault of the weak. Crates from their start (in all games) have been designed around making us the consumer pay more money than we want.

Yes we can not buy anything, but they could also be honest and respectful and just list everything as stand alone purchases which don't mean those of us with money we want to spend (without gambling) can actually have items we desire again.

I would throw £25 at ZOS for the Plague Horse mount, that's an absurd amount of money for a mount but I would do that if I could get the mount I wanted. However in the current form I am not going to spend £1,000 on the chance of a mount.

The sooner these boxes stop in the industry the better.

Yes it absolutely is your fault. You spent the money. No one made you do that except you wanted some rare cosmetic fluff and didn't get it and then spent yet more money for possibility of fluff - that was you and no one else.

People blaming everyone else for their own choices is what makes everything a mess.

I admit my own faults. However let's stop this BS where we blame each other and say it's the fault of the weak willed.

The people who make these crates, the companies who push them because they know full well it will have that effect on the weak willed are the ones who are at fault.

But no, it's easier to pretend we're better than others and blame each other whilst the big companies continue to exploit us you're right.

Sigh. No one is EXPLOITING us! If anything; I'd say people con themselves into believing they are somehow special enough to be the one who gets the most rare possible item. I think people exploit themselves.

No one could ever be conned, if they weren't already hoping to/believing they would get more than what they were putting into it.

Why exactly would anyone with any sense expect to be 'the one who got the top prize'? It's just daft.

I guess you'd rather just have NO CONTROL over yourself at all and give up control of all your faculties and money to some company because according to you, they have more control over you and power over your life than you do.

I suppose it's Ben and Jerry's fault then if all I do is eat ice cream and sit on my arse all day and I get fat. It's Amber Leaf's Fault if I smoke myself into an early grave. It's Wine's Fault and Renault's Fault if I drive drunk! Not my fault! Nooo. Because I can't control myself! Why are they all EXPLOITING ME!?!?!

*I don't know why I'm still arguing with anyone who wants to just happily give up his own control over himself and his own life - I'm done*

I am REALLY sorry personally, Turelus - because I really LIKE most things you say; but to this all ZOS' fault, hyperbole like 'exploiting us' and all of this stuff - I am just disgusted by that. We need to be responsible for ourselves and not just cede our personal integrity over to games and crap. Just seeing this in this forum quite literally makes me feel ill. It makes me wonder just what the state of the average gamer really is and is THIS what most people think?

No wonder everything SUCKS.

I have to make effort all the time to make sure my kids know their their choices = their consequences and it's already hard to teach that from the start. However, we can only change things under our own control - so the more control of your life (and money) you give up, thee less you can change to the better. I can't ever imagine letting myself believe that things I do or do not do are someone else's fault.

At the end of the day: Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Don't play.

From here, I am just gonna step out of this thread and stay out - because I cannot fix the issue and it will drive me mad trying to explain why our own lives are our own responsibility.

Haenk

The solution is to make a subscription more attractive. Free crowns etc. is a start, but I'd certainly put more psychological pressure to it - more "I need that" benefits like free crates (these are handed out for free and are not purchasable any more), free pets, maybe special events, double exp party etc.
Open the world to everyone (no paid DLC any more), but make people *want* to pay for subscription.

Samadhi

Turelus wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

this could have the potential to really shake things up,
if loot boxes get banned we will just see more high-price exclusive flash sales to artificially inflate rarity that way
but if all 'in-game purchases' manage to be impacted
then it would be a matter of finding out whether policy facilitates simply having the cash shop system appear on the website and send items to your in-game account afterward (thus still having loot box style sales)

There are a few directions this may take -- it may also ultimately not go anywhere

You know what, even though it's still BS marketing that I can deal with. At least we can see what we're paying for and not paying for a chance at the thing we actually wanted.

Do not personally buy crown crates
but blew way too much of my subcrown stockpile on the Shadowmere Elk

it is to my personal preference to know what is coming from my purchase as well
but do not put yourself under a false illusion; you are at no point paying for a chance at the thing you 'actually wanted'
you are expressly paying for the experience of the random spin, nothing more

until you accept this, you will face the 'risk' of getting 'trapped' by the system again with a shiny enough advertisement
the various graphical alterations to mounts exist as eye-candy and decoration lining the purchase of an experience
the fact than anyone ever wins them is simply to keep advertising to you in game while you're not actively looking for it

Turelus

@Mureel we're not going to agree on this one it seems but for me this is and has always been something in gaming which annoyed me.

The entire reason for these boxes is simply corporate greed from the highest ups within gaming (those old rich folk who don't even play games) and there has been enough press and facts out at this point to prove they don't need to do this for the benefit of their games, they do it because it makes more money.

Now I am not saying it's entirely the fault of the companies, yes people like myself could just walk away and never buy a crate again. However I want the items from those crates and I don't mind paying for things I want. My issue is that I get treated like a mug by companies because me simply giving them money wasn't good enough, they didn't want my money, they wanted all my money.

Why is it we're fine with the games industry doing this, but would be outraged if any other company or practice tried it? There have been loads of terrible analogies in this thread already about how it would work outside of gaming.

Any way we could go back and forth all day on this, but I personally am tired of publishers and corporate overloads trying to turn games into cash milking machines. This is why I find myself playing more and more games from Indie and EU companies where the US style corporate greed doesn't seem to be as strong.

SisterGoat

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/microtransactions-are-nearly-half-of-take-twos-sales-now

Micro-transactions are 42% for Take 2's revenue, they are making a LOT of money of their loot boxes. It's not known whether these purchases are from whales or just lots of people, but the fact is that the micro-transaction system is working when it comes to making money.

Ratzkifal

Why is it even considered gambling if you can't lose? Sure out of the eyes of a veteran player getting potions poisons food and a soul gem is "lost" money but even those can be turned into gems. If I play 50 rounds of roulette I might leave empty-handed but here I will have at least 2000 gems after 50 crates assuming I got white consumables only (which btw is impossible).

Chickenstein

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Why is it even considered gambling if you can't lose? Sure out of the eyes of a veteran player getting potions poisons food and a soul gem is "lost" money but even those can be turned into gems. If I play 50 rounds of roulette I might leave empty-handed but here I will have at least 2000 gems after 50 crates assuming I got white consumables only (which btw is impossible).

Yeah, same methodical reasoning one of my formerly gambling addicted buddies used. "Hey, I'm not playing these slot machines because of the prizes, I play because it's FUN!" yeah well then it's not gambling, of course. He just can't lose with all the fun he's having!

Edit: He was broke and in debt after years of all the "fun" nevertheless.

Teek

The only reason why gamecompanies flood their games with cancerous lootbox systems is: because it works. People buy it.
Don't buy lootboxes. Problem solved.
Talking about selfcontrole and selfresponsibilitie.
Why do you need some goverment or law to "protect" you from "evil" gamecompanies who put "evil" lootboxes in their games to "pray upon" your gambling addiction?
Pick up some responsibilitie for your own actions. It is your decision to buy or not to buy lootboxes, nobody forces you (at least not in the Elder Scrolls Online).
TL:DR - don't buy it, problem solved. Game turns p2w because lootboxes? Play something else.
my2cent

SisterGoat

Teek wrote: »

The only reason why gamecompanies flood their games with cancerous lootbox systems is: because it works. People buy it.
Don't buy lootboxes. Problem solved.
Talking about selfcontrole and selfresponsibilitie.
Why do you need some goverment or law to "protect" you from "evil" gamecompanies who put "evil" lootboxes in their games to "pray upon" your gambling addiction?
Pick up some responsibilitie for your own actions. It is your decision to buy or not to buy lootboxes, nobody forces you (at least not in the Elder Scrolls Online).
TL:DR - don't buy it, problem solved. Game turns p2w because lootboxes? Play something else.
my2cent

It's easy to say that, but tell a morbidly obese person to stop eating so much junk food. It's not so easy for them. Not everybody has an iron will. Should we ban junkfood because people get fat? No. But should we regulate certain things in food that are proven to cause health issues? Definitely.

eklhaftb16_ESO

If the push comes to shove, it shouldn't be all that hard to de-gamblify the lockboxes, no? Just fiddle with the loot table a bit and sell them as "surprise boxes" - "There's always a mount, an outfit and a consumable, and it costs less than all those items bought separately". It would be a cool way to introduce new stuff, even: first put them into the boxes, some months later sell them separately. That would create an incentive for people to buy them - the same way they're buying those surprise LEGO minifigs.

Sharee

Huyen wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

I hope I'm posting this in the correct forum - it seems like a general topic to me.

The Belgium Gaming Commission has ruled (rather quickly) that yes, loot boxes constitute a form of gambling and they will be seeking that the EU ban them. They focused on the SWBF2 and Overwatch systems but, as I understand it, the ruling is more general than that.

https://www.mmorpg.com/news/belgium-rules-loot-boxes-are-gambling-seeks-to-have-an-eu-ban-implmented-1000046476

IMO, this is a long way from over but it IS a first.

I doubt there will be an official ZOS statement about this but I'm "atting" Gina just in case they do want to comment.

What do the rest of you think?

ZoS, EA and Blizzard wont change it, because they operate under American Law, and not EU laws. So nothing will change in the end.

http://www.pcgamer.com/us-legislator-calls-out-eas-predatory-practices-in-star-wars-battlefront-2/

Samadhi

Turelus wrote: »

...
Why is it we're fine with the games industry doing this, but would be outraged if any other company or practice tried it? There have been loads of terrible analogies in this thread already about how it would work outside of gaming.
...

This depends on what you mean by 'we'

not sure if it exists in Europe, but every year McDonalds runs Monopoly in North America

it is a chance-based advertisement campaign,
buy fries or a drink, get pieces, collect enough of the 'right' pieces and you may win a car
other coffee shops and the like run similar campaigns

Someone has to win that car, it may be your meal that does it, buy an extra fry for extra pieces
No one complains that McDonalds turned them into a poor overweight slob by offering them a car tho
Hell, know people who only eat at McDonalds while monopoly is running

Crown Crates are basically just a perpetual advertising campaign attached to the *** crown items like scrolls
believe it or not, there is a group of people companies make money off of by selling exp scrolls and cash shop potions
and as a fall-back they are the one the company treats the crown crates as being 'for'
it is a fancy/more exciting way to get mundane items, with potential contest prizes attached to it
whether you win the fancy mount or the boring exp scrolls, the company puts the same development work into having the items in game
especially since the seasonal mounts are just fancy reskins of existing models

if anything, only the gaming community really seems to speak up about it with any frequency

Demycilian

Go, go, Belgium. It would seem they got informed how certain companies run buggy, broken, neglected, content-starved games as a front to cover up their gambling enterprise.

Thalmor-Nordmaster

Now Hawaii
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=_akwfRuL4os

Who is next to jump in?

SirAxen

Lootboxes aren't ideal ever. That said, if they must be there, ESO does then fairly classy all things considered. Crown gems, nothing p2w in them, etc.

Zorvan

Honestly, the industry needs to collapse. E.T. killed gaming in 1983, lootboxes can kill it now, and we'll see what the next rise of gaming entails.

NewBlacksmurf

Draxius82 wrote: »

So... the gaming industry is going to be linked to the gambling addiction hotline now.

It’s been on the addiction hotline for over 13 years that I’m aware of. WoW made the news for it but there are many other games.....
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/features/video-game-addiction-no-fun

Not sure if this place is real but look: https://www.netaddictionrecovery.com/