UPDATED: So... about those Crown Crates in light of Belgium's ruling that they are gambling

Runefang

Does this mean I can't buy Pokémon cards till I'm 18 now? They're just physical loot boxes.

DeathHouseInc

Obviously gambling and obviously a complete waste of money to anyone who has spent 50$ or so bucks on them as the rewards are extremely few and far between, but completely *** to have a government get involved. That is what they do though waste time and other people's money.

Iselin

Jarryzzt wrote: »

What I really want to know is why, why the Minister of Justice - one Koen Geens, of the local version of Christian Democrats (center-right-ish with a moralist twist, I presume) - bothers. Surely loot boxes cannot be some sort of a scourge sweeping the...glens and heaths...or something...of Belgium, reaping a grisly harvest among its youth. I know next to nothing about Belgian politics, well, aside from the Franco-Flemish split, but ordinarily an elected minister would announce something like this because a) it makes them look as if they are doing something; and b) they do not actually have to do anything (not the least as they can use EU bureaucracy as an excuse). "Look at me, see how vigorously I am defending your children against...scourges." Just seems daft to me, the whole thing does.

"Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men politicians? The Shad..." oh never mind.

Why did they get involved? Same reason as always, of course: because they smell political gain.

Be that as it may, EA provided them with the golden opportunity by taking things a few steps too far and generating an outcry that, this time, wormed its way into the mainstream media, financial publications and even the stock market where EA stock has been in decline since last week. I'm sure neither Zenimax nor Activision/Blizzard is feeling particularly warm and fuzzy about EA right about now.

This will also end in compromises at some point: age restrictions similar to those used for sex and violence already, published odds as China already requires, etc. I'm sure the lobbyists will kick into high gear at some point.

The real win? 1. The astroturfers and other intrepid defenders of laissez faire monetization in games are being exposed for the toadies they are and 2. the industry is getting a reality check on a subject that most other industries already know: it is always preferable to self-regulate because when you don't, the political hordes will seize the opportunity and do it for you.

SFDB

Because if there's one thing a limousine-riding, champagne and caviar-eating, private jet-using, high class-party attending European bureaucrat can't stand, it's greed.

Slick_007

what did EA do to trigger this?

WrathOfInnos

disintegr8 wrote: »

Have never seen the point of Crown Crates other than to make money for ZOS. Considering there is nothing in them of any real value or benefit in game for long time players, I don't buy them.

Be interesting to see how they could ban them from one country or a particular region - people who want them would still find a way to get them.

I don't think it could be a ban preventing citizens from buying them, crown crates are not some type of illegal contraband. It would more likely be a regulation on the seller to remove gambling from the game or face lawsuits.

If any of this actually goes into effect it would likely just mean a shift of items from crates to the regular crown store, which would be pretty nice actually.

SisterGoat

Slick_007 wrote: »

what did EA do to trigger this?

Star Wars Battlefront 2. They have a lootbox progression system, which means in order to progress you are required to purchase loot boxes with credits that you can buy. Although you can obtain credits in game, it takes forever to earn enough just to buy one box in offline mode. If you play in online mode, you're up against people who have an upper hand if they bought a ton of boxes and got lucky. This is not only P2W, but gambling to win.

xaraan

Good. Hope to see this spread. The use the same tricks as any other mainstream gambling to lure and addict people. I personally think they should sell stuff straight up and not rely on gambling mechanisms to try and milk more money from people.

Tommy_The_Gun

Well, I always thought that term "gambling" refered more to spending reallive money with the posibilty not to obtain anything at all... So you have to spend mere money to have another chance to "get back" money you lost etc.
In eso when you buy a loot box you always get "something". Sure - 99% of the time it is something useless and crappy - but still it is somethig... It is almost like those little chocolate eggs that have a random toy inside... It might be something cool... but it might also be something useless and crappy.

Pele

I'm glad I don't live in the EU. It's such a nanny state.

Draxius82 wrote: »

So... the gaming industry is going to be linked to the gambling addiction hotline now.

Video game addiction treatment is a thing. It's not for loot boxes but for video game playing in general. Extreme cases where people spend an inordinate amount of time playing that it interferes with their lives.

AbysmalGhul

I don't consider crown crates gambling. A gamble is a win or lose situation. You either win or you don't. Every crown crate you open has rewards in them...regardless of whether or not it was the desired item you wanted.

DRXHarbinger

Casterial wrote: »

Well.... Quite stupid to try and ban anything in a game in an entire country.

Loot boxes, yes they're gambling. So are bags in-game? If they wanna ban them then the companies like Blizzard may say "Overwatch makes no money here. Close the servers."

No chance. DLC's and in game store make more than enough money over crown crates. Not that many people even bother with them imo. After the 2nd batch where people largely got fisted they ditched it.

And lol at dropping the servers. I guess you don't know about offsetting costs. If the EU bans them these companies will more likely add like €1 to eso sub to account for the loss. But that gets dangerous and risks losing subs.

So you can look at bumping cs store prices or dlc prices.

If that's not viable you take it as an operational loss and learn from lessons to be had here.

Removing servers outright. Which itself isn't free. Such as data clean ups and server hub contracts being in place is a very last resort where you are hemorrhaging money rather than not making as much.

Jurand80

Gambling is ok if you are 18+ in EU so by making the game 18+ they should be fine. Kids will buy it anyway. No one controls that.

Remember - the house always wins!

https://www.reddit.com/r/DBZDokkanBattle/comments/7d0dwq/confirmation_that_scamco_does_in_fact_rig_their/?st=ja0uq658&sh=7e6599f2

Slick_007

so for eso you need a cc so its generally adults. for trading card games, which is exactly the same thing, little kids can walk in and buy those with pocket money.
ban trading card games!

FloppyTouch

Mureel wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Crown crates do offer gems so it’s more like a more expensive way to buy the same things not really gambling if you no the cost. It’s about 200$ usd to get about 400 gems or you might get one for free. After that 200$ it takes less and less to get to 400 gems bc everything starts to become doubles.

My issue it that this system was very fair and NOT GAMBLING but the new mounts they added had made it gambling to get more money. Now and only now are the crown crates gambling.

If they weren't before they aren't now - cosmetics mount skins do not change something into GAMBLING any more than my standing in a garage turns me into a car.

I disagree on the fact that if I spend money to try to get that rare mount I’m taking a gamble bc I might not ever get what I wanted. I feel I have to clarify that I’m talking about the rare mount hidden in the crown crates and not the ones you can buy with gems.

If we look at those rare mount that you can not buy with gems then this in fact is a gamble which makes it gambling. Before u could get everything from the crown crates with enough money that is not a gamble you will get what you want.

The fact they added these new mounts with the last two seasons has in fact turned it into a gamble bc u might never get the prize no matter how much you spend.

Also I don’t understand ur analogy does not fit or make any sense

TelvanniWizard

I hope they finally ban scam crates, so we can buy legitimally waht we want for a flat price. If crates dissapeared, I could finally hace some shiny stuff.

cbdfarm

Nothing wrong with micro-transactions but hiding them behind a "crown crate" to gamble your money on it is gambling through and through. "lootboxes" really need to be illegal in gaming.

Samadhi

Iselin wrote: »

...
The Belgium Gaming Commission has ruled (rather quickly) that yes, loot boxes constitute a form of gambling and they will be seeking that the EU ban them. They focused on the SWBF2 and Overwatch systems but, as I understand it, the ruling is more general than that.
...
What do the rest of you think?

It really rather surprises me to see Overwatch at issue
Given how many loot boxes the game gives away for free constantly, did not suspect enough people even spent on them to be an issue

ZOS does the sneaky first-hit-is-always-free style and hands out a few boxes at the start of each cycle to try and incentivize buying more
if they, instead, gave us one every time our Champion Rank increased, that would be veritable cause for celebration

acw37162

This is most fortuitous and quite honestly I had already written my congressman and senator.

At least now they will be have to change their business model, marketing model or conform to already well established rules and laws regulating gambling around the world. Namely you have to clearly publish the odds and not exploit kids/younger adults chasing a dopamine hit.

Good on you Belgium.

If every game company under sun wasn’t exploiting this to he utmost financia advantage then this would have been completely unnecessary but just like ESO mount addict chasing a frost senche the managers and CEO’s who run the corporate side chase profit margins and quarterly bonuses.

Asardes

No need to ban, simply tax them the same way as casinos.

Mureel

MinarasLaure wrote: »

The thing about crown crates is that nothing is guaranteed.
All they need to do is add one single guaranteed item and leave the rest random
Problem solved

Except *something* is. You always get something.

Samadhi

More general question that part of the article posed for me

"The mixing of money and addiction is gambling. Mixing gambling and gaming, especially at a young age, is dangerous for the mental health of a child."

what is the lowest age rating (ESRB, or PEGI for Europe I suppose?) on a videogame with cash store loot boxes
erm, barring f2p titles since the story did not express interest in those and is rather targeting larger companies

think we would ever see a culture of game companies doing self-classifications on titles as not being for children
in an effort to keep gambling apparatuses in game for more adult-oriented titles?

Runefang

Loot boxes are primarily a tax on the stupid. So yeah, all good I think.

Everstorm

DeathHouseInc wrote: »

Obviously gambling and obviously a complete waste of money to anyone who has spent 50$ or so bucks on them as the rewards are extremely few and far between, but completely *** to have a government get involved. That is what they do though waste time and other people's money.

The issue with gambling and the reason that it's strictly regulated in most countries is that it's not a rational process for a group of people. Just like it's not a rational decision to use drugs or alcohol or cigarets every day.
And whether or not it's pay to win is irrelevant for declaring it as gambling. If someone wants

Mureel wrote: »

MinarasLaure wrote: »

The thing about crown crates is that nothing is guaranteed.
All they need to do is add one single guaranteed item and leave the rest random
Problem solved

Except *something* is. You always get something.

While that's true you know darn well that a gambling addict won't stop because he "won" his 20th Nix Hound.

Malnutrition

Crown crates are not gambling.

When I was a kid, we'd go to the local carnival and I'd always go to the booth with the grab bags. Plain paper sack, which held one of the multitude of items they had in the rotation. You pay a fee and grab a bag and you either got something you felt was neat or crap. So it was up to you if you wanted to buy another surprise grab bag. That is not gambling. You're always getting something for your money regardless of whether it ends up being pretty neat or crap.

It may be a gamble (copy pasta: take risky action in the hope of a desired result) but it is not gambling in the sense that you're risking money for a financial gain.

Alchemical

This was inevitable. Europe got slot machines that DIDN'T EVEN REQUIRE REAL MONEY removed from Pokemon because it was gambling targeted at/made accessible to children. To this though, I say good riddance. It's a terrible system. Predatory and unethical at the very least.

'But the base price of games will go up without microtransactions!'
At least you only pay for the game once, and never lose track of how much you spend on it.

zyk

craigr02 wrote: »

Interesting article, and video. Good to see, but bad for game developers who probably make a bunch of cash on llot boxes

It's actually good for game developers because they tend to love gaming and strongly dislike loot boxes. They did not get into the industry to design psychologically exploitative gambling products.

It's bad for unethical publishers who are willing to contort a product into any shape to make more money.

Turelus

From what I saw/watched so far wasn't this ONLY if progression was tired to the boxes (Battlefront II) and not just cosmetics?

If it's only for progression then nothing in ESO will change. Trying to find some actual news on it which isn't vague speculation and hyperbole is proving annoying though.

randomkeyhits

Malnutrition wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling.

When I was a kid, we'd go to the local carnival and I'd always go to the booth with the grab bags. Plain paper sack, which held one of the multitude of items they had in the rotation. You pay a fee and grab a bag and you either got something you felt was neat or crap. So it was up to you if you wanted to buy another surprise grab bag. That is not gambling. You're always getting something for your money regardless of whether it ends up being pretty neat or crap.

It may be a gamble (copy pasta: take risky action in the hope of a desired result) but it is not gambling in the sense that you're risking money for a financial gain.

Getting stuff does not mean that its not gambling. It is. Very much so.

Dictionary definition of gambling "take risky action in the hope of a desired result."

Now if you are happy with getting the potions then its a cheap and successful gamble, good on you.

If you are after an apex mount or a specific reward then it can become a very expensive or unsuccessful gamble, bad luck for you.

Whether cheap or expensive, successful or not, it is still gambling

SisterGoat

My step-dad was a gambling addict. Even when he won, he'd gamble it all away for more. He'd lose his whole paycheck so he stole from my family and pawned off our things without our knowledge so he could continue. He would refuse help. It's a disease and some people just don't know how to stop.

While I'd say the average person knows how to stop or avoid altogether, it's still a predatory tactic because of what is called "operant conditioning".