Monthly Combat Update – November

bottleofsyrup

Thanks for this, Gina. Looking forward to synergy improvements as right now they're pretty buggy. Has there been any word on improvements to movement on terrain, notably while mounted? The constant slowing every half second is super annoying.

TazESO

Rickter wrote: »

I think i speak for the entire enthusiastic pvp community when i say: thank you zos from the bottom of our hearts

Yup

Alaztor91

Any improvement in communication is appreciated, btw is there any info about the possible API changes regarding certain addons.

zyk

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Investigate adding something to Champion passives, or an item set to increase the block cost

Please no. I dislike permablocking and want to see it fixed properly, but please don't add another shieldbreaker. These are the WORST solutions.

LiquidPony

@ZOS_GinaBruno improving synergy utilization would be a huge boon for console players (at least, on XB1). Getting synergies is really frustrating and seems nearly impossible when coupled with the really poor framerates and input lag we see in Trials fights. Oddly it seems even more troublesome in raid parses. Half the time I'm just standing there doing nothing because of 4 consecutive failed attempts to grab an orb synergy.

In the same vein, can you guys possibly look at resurrection mechanics? In crowded fights with combat tips and synergies popping and a bunch of enemies allies standing over top of a body, it can be nearly impossible to resurrect a teammate. When someone drops, you'll often see several players milling around doing nothing attempting to get the rez. It's not uncommon to end up in a menu or accidentally kick someone from the group or attempt to trade with or duel them when trying to rez. It should be dead-simple but it ends up being just as frustrating as the nonsense with synergies.

The whole process of resurrection could use a complete rework, to be honest. No regen while resurrecting doesn't make sense. Getting pushed out of the way and having the resurrection canceled by a wandering enemy is annoying. It'd be nice to be able to select a teammate to rez from a quick-menu or at least have a unique button combination that automatically starts rezzing if there's a dead friendly target in range.

Hamburglarjones

Thank you thank you thank you

lucky_Sage

ive happy yall are posting this as I am working on switching to pc. it would be nice to see what points y'all are looking at class balance. being interrupted really should do more in pvp as of right now its just a slight time waste
with the off balance changes would power lash actually cc players ive never understood why it doesn't

what about weapon balancing with destro staff is almost useless with 2 of the mag classes only reason they may slot it is the ult. I know destro staffs heavy attacks take longer to cast because there range but that hurts melee magicka class like Templar and dk and some magblades. you shouldn't have to slot a staff ability to get dmg passives on it since Dw and 2H don't( and no don't nerf theres to be like destro staff)
best fix to the melee mag builds would add a melee magicka based weapon

are y'all looking onto picking a 2h weapon like 2h bow, and destro staff have balance for losing 5/5/2
bows are in a bad spot other than ganking builds no on main bars bows for a reason in pve or pvp

MrTtheDK

Interesting changes. How about PVP? I would like to retain the friends I have currently have. It is getting difficult each patch when droves quit from a lack of development in this area.

Vapirko

IxSTALKERxI

Thank you very much for doing this! This will help a lot to improve the game and will reduce negative outbursts during PTS testing periods.

-Synergies: Looking forward to the improvements to synergies! Everything on the list sounds great.

-Interupt changes: When reading about this, Dark deal specifically comes to mind, which sounds like a pretty big nerf for stam sorc. Other interuptable abilities in the game are already undesirable in the current meta. Also a nerf to the one player in cyrodiil who spams crystal blast (poor guy). So I'm already not sure how I feel about this change - you should go into more detail and get more feedback on this when possible. Also I'm interested in whether this effects resurrecting players with a soul gem.

-Block changes: It's important to nerf min-maxed block builds without nerfing players who do not invest much into blocking. Lower the block cost reduction ceiling without lowering the floor. The change to block calculations sounds good. Do not add the second part though. Do not add an item set or CP star that counters block cost. Niche counters like this complicates things and are generally disliked (shield breaker for example). They are disliked because they are niche and not something everyone wants to have on their build. It also hurts players with a dual wield build who are outnumbered and are skillfully just holding block for 1 second to block a Dizzying swing only to find their whole stamina pool gone from also blocking the other 5 abilities that hit them in that short window in conjunction with some anti-block set. Players who use block the way it is meant to be used should not be punished.

-Heavy attack/offbalance: I think these changes sound good but it is one of those things where you need to actually play it to know for sure. Will be interested in seeing the final iteration of this you come up with by the time PTS comes around.

____________________________

Here is some additional general feedback on balance including some Do's and Don'ts.

We all know nerfs are necessary due to power creep and occasionally certain things being more powerful than intended etc. However please keep the following in mind.

Generally speaking the following is usually true:

-Players strongly dislike class-specific nerfs
-Players enjoy class-specific buffs/ skill reworks of under used abilities.
-Players dislike itemization and CP nerfs but prefer this over class nerfs and don't mind as much so long as their itemization setups are still viable best in slot contenders (not nerfed into ground) and players aren't forced into a playstyle they may not enjoy such as having to incorporate heavy attacks into their build.

Which means you should aim to target itemization and CP with nerfs if needed and leave class skills alone. Buff class skills when needed. This will make people like you more.

So try and buff / rework underperforming skills, without nerfing class specific stuff unless something is blatantly overpowered (nerfing frag to make blast more desirable is an example of what not to do). If there is an issue with powercreep, target itemization such as item set bonuses, enchants, food / drink options (Earthgore *cough*). Also target the champion system (reducing things from 25% to 15% maximum for example). Lowering the ceiling on itemization may be needed (Don't completely change what items are considered bis in the process though). Also when doing this , be careful not to force the community into a playstyle which some may not find enjoyable (Eg. having heavy attacks as a core feature of your build).

Do not complicate things by balancing via niche counters EG. 'shield breaker'. Do not balance block by adding a CP passive or itemset counter. Simply adjust the block calculation instead.


As you can see by all this rambling i'm doing - balance is hard. Hopefully with some helpful feedback from the community you can make some great improvements though.

TheRealPotoroo

ChandraNalaar wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thank you for the communication.

As to block cost, please add the changes to battle spirit.

I agree; I think that permablocking needs to be investigated in pvp for sure, but I think that should be a pvp only change. Permablocking in pve isn't an issue, since the bosses can hit so hard through block anyway. Could you guys add a blocking penalty to battle spirit or something similar? @Gilliamtherogue brings up an excellent point. If you show how this isn't going to completely nerf pve tanks, then folks won't be as up in arms about the proposed changes. Thank you guys for the communication, as well. It means a lot to the player base to have regular updates on what is going on behind the scenes, since we can't see what you guys are working on until it is announced. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Why the hell is even a partial nerf to PvE tanks remotely acceptable because of issues in PvP? This is what is wrong, ZoS are incapable of balancing the two modes using a single set of metrics. As a PvE tank I refuse to accept any nerf because of PvP, which is a totally different mode to the one I play. Anybody who does is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

GandTheImpaler

Absolutely love that you guys decided to do this. Keep up the good work.

modaretto

This is amazing! Both the info of what is being worked on as well as the fact we get the insight into it.

I just hope no one will expect everything will be carried out from month to month and that some instant revolution will happen. This doesnt entitle to a demanding stance.

What a great player appreciation step this is. Thanks a lot!

Emma_Overload

These changes to interrupts sound horrible....basically the opposite of what needs to happen. Interrupts are already too strong and make magicka builds inferior to stamina. Adding the need to CC break would makes this even worse. Also, there are too many abilities that are hard to use in PvP because of long cast times. Buffing interrupts would just exacerbate this problem.

Ragnarock41

I appreciate this move and hope that permablocking will be finally gone for good.

With that being said , I used to be a stamDK main myself,and the class is already underdog when you play competitively.
Please when you get rid of permablocking, Give Dks some tough love.

I don't wanna keep this topic into another ''buff Dk'' thread, So I will wait patiently to see if they adress the classes after this.

GreenSoup2HoT

@Wrobel If perma-blocking is being re-evaluated... please also take a look at no sprint regen. This mechanic pure and simple is just not fun. Movement is fun, being snared down and unable to re-position is not. Medium Armour specifically just feels counter-productive considering they invest more then any other armour type into stamina regeneration only for it to be halted by sprinting.

Vaoh

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@Wrobel If perma-blocking is being re-evaluated... please also take a look at no sprint regen. This mechanic pure and simple is just not fun. Movement is fun, being snared down and unable to re-position is not. Medium Armour specifically just feels counter-productive considering they invest more then any other armour type into stamina regeneration only for it to be halted by sprinting.

^^^ I actually agree with this specifically for the last point. Stam Regen builds are hurt a lot by their investment being cut to zero when sprinting. Reducing Stam regen a bit could make sense, but I’ve never agreed with it being cut down to zero.

Masel

the_Beard wrote: »

Kammakazi wrote: »

Wait, so does this mean Mag DKs are viable again? Will their whips no longer consume off balance?

Let's hope so. If this could be fixed, along with having shorter staff heavy attack cast times, and maybe buff the dmg to flame lash procs a bit more, and I think magDK could be in a really good spot again.

Don't gets it wrong. This isn't meaning that heavy attacks ate shorter. The cooldown of them is something else

Curragraigue

Greatly appreciated Combat team. Hopefully it stays civil and community gets comfortable with changes before they are implemented on PTS

aeowulf

Thank you for sharing this, really glad to know these areas are being looked at, especially perma blocking. Please keep in mind the viability of each class in each role, for example with the case of perma blocking the only two viable end game tanks are also the only two classes that can currently perma block (and ae root for that matter)

EDIT: I don't consider either of these the only/main reasons they are the two viable end game tank classes, but both certainly help

Strider__Roshin

Vaoh wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@Wrobel If perma-blocking is being re-evaluated... please also take a look at no sprint regen. This mechanic pure and simple is just not fun. Movement is fun, being snared down and unable to re-position is not. Medium Armour specifically just feels counter-productive considering they invest more then any other armour type into stamina regeneration only for it to be halted by sprinting.

^^^ I actually agree with this specifically for the last point. Stam Regen builds are hurt a lot by their investment being cut to zero when sprinting. Reducing Stam regen a bit could make sense, but I’ve never agreed with it being cut down to zero.

If only my character's cardio was even half as good as mine irl lol. The no stam regen mechanic really makes our characters look out of shape.

gabriebe

The permablocking thing is not really an issue, imho. They don't do a ton of damage, medium at the very best.

If anything, I'd say increase the block cost for the BGS, but not Cyrodiil, but then again, BGs shouldnt have CPs to begin with. In Cyro, permablockers's only job is really to direct traffic and get people who can't prioritize targets or strategize to follow them away from other people. In battlegrounds, I agree that this type of build is a problem due to the nature of the game mode itself.

And more interrupts would be great. Looking at you, dizzy swing spammers.

Cyrodiil siege could also be revisited, imho. Give lightning ballistas the ability to slow down groups using Rapids. Ice trebuchets immobilizing enemies for 2-3 seconds, like an ice storm. I don't know, something to diversify the sieging tactics.

Strider__Roshin

Emma_Overload wrote: »

These changes to interrupts sound horrible....basically the opposite of what needs to happen. Interrupts are already too strong and make magicka builds inferior to stamina. Adding the need to CC break would makes this even worse. Also, there are too many abilities that are hard to use in PvP because of long cast times. Buffing interrupts would just exacerbate this problem.

Ever interrupted a stamsorc spamming Dark Exchange? Yeah it's a waste of stamina since they don't lose any magicka by being interrupted. Interrupting is so weak as a stam player since more often than not you're being punished more than the person being interrupted.

This change however will make magicka even more powerful since it requires no skill to interrupt an opponent when using crushing shock.

Kaeriz

Echoing nearly everyone, this is a sincerely appreciated effort. We're in couples counseling together to make this relationship work

Should say that while I have no doubt that there will be a dose of negativity and generally non-constructive feedback, I hope the greater dose of positivity and constructive feedback will keep these kinds of threads ongoing. Honestly, I think the greater risk is us sniping at each other, not necessarily ZOS. Last thing we need is to have this become a thread the mods are forced to patrol. Let's not take any bait.

Own

1. Troll King still OP
2. Skoria Telegraph
3. Random Sets and Abilites breaking cloak. Lighting staff heavy attacks breaking cloak.
4. Assassins Scourge is still canceling out and doing nothing when bar swapping or recasting the ability right after firing it at long range.
5. Ability to customize in game buff tracker. There are too many useless buffs showing.
6. Fasalla's Guile back to requiring damage taken to proc.
7. 10.5 second resource poisons
8. Dodge Roll cost should stack more after 2 in a row
9. Well-Fitted Reduction
10. Impregnable Armor has too much crit resist
11. Crit resist cap

Kilandros

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Thank you very much for doing this! This will help a lot to improve the game and will reduce negative outbursts during PTS testing periods.

-Synergies: Looking forward to the improvements to synergies! Everything on the list sounds great.

-Interupt changes: When reading about this, Dark deal specifically comes to mind, which sounds like a pretty big nerf for stam sorc. Other interuptable abilities in the game are already undesirable in the current meta. Also a nerf to the one player in cyrodiil who spams crystal blast (poor guy). So I'm already not sure how I feel about this change - you should go into more detail and get more feedback on this when possible. Also I'm interested in whether this effects resurrecting players with a soul gem.

-Block changes: It's important to nerf min-maxed block builds without nerfing players who do not invest much into blocking. Lower the block cost reduction ceiling without lowering the floor. The change to block calculations sounds good. Do not add the second part though. Do not add an item set or CP star that counters block cost. Niche counters like this complicates things and are generally disliked (shield breaker for example). They are disliked because they are niche and not something everyone wants to have on their build. It also hurts players with a dual wield build who are outnumbered and are skillfully just holding block for 1 second to block a Dizzying swing only to find their whole stamina pool gone from also blocking the other 5 abilities that hit them in that short window in conjunction with some anti-block set. Players who use block the way it is meant to be used should not be punished.

-Heavy attack/offbalance: I think these changes sound good but it is one of those things where you need to actually play it to know for sure. Will be interested in seeing the final iteration of this you come up with by the time PTS comes around.

____________________________

Here is some additional general feedback on balance including some Do's and Don'ts.

We all know nerfs are necessary due to power creep and occasionally certain things being more powerful than intended etc. However please keep the following in mind.

Generally speaking the following is usually true:

-Players strongly dislike class-specific nerfs
-Players enjoy class-specific buffs/ skill reworks of under used abilities.
-Players dislike itemization and CP nerfs but prefer this over class nerfs and don't mind as much so long as their itemization setups are still viable best in slot contenders (not nerfed into ground) and players aren't forced into a playstyle they may not enjoy such as having to incorporate heavy attacks into their build.

Which means you should aim to target itemization and CP with nerfs if needed and leave class skills alone. Buff class skills when needed. This will make people like you more.

So try and buff / rework underperforming skills, without nerfing class specific stuff unless something is blatantly overpowered (nerfing frag to make blast more desirable is an example of what not to do). If there is an issue with powercreep, target itemization such as item set bonuses, enchants, food / drink options (Earthgore *cough*). Also target the champion system (reducing things from 25% to 15% maximum for example). Lowering the ceiling on itemization may be needed (Don't completely change what items are considered bis in the process though). Also when doing this , be careful not to force the community into a playstyle which some may not find enjoyable (Eg. having heavy attacks as a core feature of your build).

Do not complicate things by balancing via niche counters EG. 'shield breaker'. Do not balance block by adding a CP passive or itemset counter. Simply adjust the block calculation instead.


As you can see by all this rambling i'm doing - balance is hard. Hopefully with some helpful feedback from the community you can make some great improvements though.

This x100000000000000000 infinity

HatchetHaro

I'm glad to see you guys pushing for more transparency on these. This is awesome!

I really like what is listed so far. I am concerned about the balancing when it comes to Off Balance and Heavy Attacks, though, because I feel that it would just bring perma-sustain back in. I'm fine with both changes individually, but when paired together, the sustain you get from that might get too powerful.

However, if bosses can't be knocked Off Balance or can be knocked down from Off Balance (therefore consuming it), then I feel the proposed changes would be mostly fine.

ManDraKE

PLEASE!!!!!!! take a look at undoggeable abilities, there is simple too many stuff that goes through dodge.

About permablock, don't look just at the cost of blocking, take a look at the ammount of mitigation provided by block on PvP. Reducing the amount of damage absorbed by block by adding a modifier on the battle spirit buff will come a long way. Damage, shields and healing are cut in half on PvP, while block mitigation is not? This kind of change will also let PvE untouched, so we can avoid the river of tears.

We also need to do something with wardens, their ultimate generation is absurd (major heroism + savage beast passive), not only allows them to have a insane uptime on offensive ultimates, but also allows them to build defensive ultimates too quickly. Their uptime on major mending is also too good (specially considering what you guys did with major mending in the rest of the classes a couple of patch ago).

frozywozy

Me and my guild members.....

mb10

My 2 cents is to make synergies on PS4/Console one button as oppose to having to press two at the same time.

I believe L3 on PS4 isnt used for anything and is the same analog used for moving so players thumbs will generally tend to be on it thus making pressing it for a syngergy so much easier than pressing Triangle and Circle at the same time.