Monthly Combat Update – November

Rickter

NBrookus wrote: »

Please be very cautious here. You have two classes which rely heavily on block in pvp for lack of other mitigation options -- particularly mag DKs, but also stam DK and magplars. And PVE tanks have been hit really hard with collateral damage from past block changes and really don't need to be nerfed.

Adding a CP star which reduces the effectiveness of blocking is a step in the right direction (because it won't affect PVE tanks), but also increases the strength of the zerg versus the outnumbered AGAIN. DK and Templar have no way to proactively disengage from an incoming bad situation -- no expedition and no snare removal or reduction.

In short: it will be very easy to nerf blocking (again) in a way that hurts non-permablocks build more than block builds, and forces classes who must rely on block to dig in deeper.

i think i know why you'd be so concerned with this point

but in all seriousness, make Shattering Blows do additional dmg to blocking opponents as well as shielded opponents. hee hee!

Kilnerdyne

yay

HeroOfNone

@ZOS_GinaBruno and any devs reading:

I like the direction, but I would like to consider more paper/rock/scissors balance between magicka damage, stamina damage, and heavy armor builds. This feeds into the perma block build metas you're trying to deal with. In address this you may find better ways to balance out these 3.

From my own discussion with friends, I was considering the following changes:
- magicka skill morphs set to do more damage if blocked.
- add more general skills that cost more to block on players.
- a new debuff called "fatigue" in major/minor versions that increase the cost of blocking, sprinting, and possibly roll dodging
- a rising stamina drain the longer you block, tied specifically to battle spirit. Could apply to pve some day, but a lot of boss fights would need rework.

But if you nerf perma block, we should give better compensation
- make bashes from sword and board unavoidable
- make certain channels or heavy attacks interruptable with a well time bash.


As for the plan to improve heavy attacks, you need to make it more worthwhile. Roll dodging or shuffle makes them highly ineffective in PVP except combos attacks like heavy attack+crit rush or from stealth. Tying something into heavy armor to always hit with an active buff or something, along with the resource bonus, seems a bit better.

I have more. But I'll stick to what you posted.

ak_pvp

Woah. These changes are pretty much exactly what is needed.

Shields need looking into. Due to blocking nearly all damage bar oblivion and bleed. For comparison block and dodge take dots and AoEs. (Shield breaker is an unfair counter on both sides, having to run a 5pc and too strong against shielded.

Stay away from adding CP/sets to increase blocking, or revert the siphoner.

With interrupts, will immunity stop them being interrupted again?

kojou

- Add a short cooldown to an interrupted ability to add interesting gameplay to interrupts

Is this referring to the skill that was interrupted or to the skill that was used to interrupt? (e.g. Player unable to recast snipe for a few seconds after being interrupted or Player unable to interrupt second cast of snipe)

- Shorten the global cast speed penalty of Heavy Attacks to 50% from 75%

Does this refer to the movement snare when casting a heavy attack?

- Shorten the Heavy Attack cooldown to approximately 300ms from 700ms

I don't think this will have a significant impact on combat since most of the time a skill is weaved in with the Heavy Attack and the GCD of the skill already surpasses the 700ms heavy attack cool down. Its appreciated, but the benefit will be minimal.

I would prefer if the team would look at syncing up the animations of the heavy attacks so that when a heavy attack is "full" the animation is complete. Part of what is wrong with heavy attacks is that they are "slow", but another part is that they feel "slow" to cast and it is difficult to tell when during the heavy attack you will get resources back.

As for perma-blocking changes and changes to block cost these always make me nervous. Please don't make PvE tanking even less enjoyable than it already is. I still kinda like it...

I appreciate your attempt to communicate direction to us. I really hope all forum users will also show appreciation by keeping communication civil and providing useful feedback.

Dutchessx

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Goal: Improve Interrupt

• Add a stun to interrupts – if a player gets interrupted, they get stunned (and therefore get CC immunity when they break it)
• Add a short cooldown to an interrupted ability to add interesting gameplay to interrupts
• Add interrupt telegraphs to cast time abilities when players are not CC immune

Goal: Investigating Perma-blocking

• Adjust the block calculations so that cost reduction happens first (might have to reduce the block cost slightly as a result)
• Investigate adding something to Champion passives, or an item set to increase the block cost

Goal: Improving Off Balance + Heavy Attacks

• Test the following changes, with the end goal to have Off Balance be more useful for everyone:
  • Effect is only consumed if the target is knocked down from a Heavy Attack
  • Attacking an Off Balance enemy with a Heavy Attack restores 2x resources
  • After Off Balance ends, the target is immune for a period of time
• Test making the following changes to make Heavy Attacks feel better:
  • Shorten the Heavy Attack cooldown to approximately 300ms from 700ms
  • Shorten the global cast speed penalty of Heavy Attacks to 50% from 75%

First I would like to thank you @ZOS_GinaBruno and the combat team for this update.
In regards to a cool down on abilities that interrupt. How is this being proposed to work? Will there be a delay before I can recast crushing shock? If so how will that work with the new Asylum weapons where you have to cast it 2 (perfected) or 3 (normal) staves ehich must happen within a specific timeframe for the effect to proc? Will it be only against the same enemy or if that enemy dies can I reuse the skill on a different target?

In regards to perma-blocking - Thank you for looking into this. My question is how do you plan to implement this without having negative effects to magicka users? I play a Templar tank healer in pvp my stam pool isn’t large and while I expect to have some cost to when I have to block and use it sparingly already along with other things like break free & dodge roll which are essential in pvp as a healer. How will you make this happen without making the cost to great? Healing effectively in pvp is difficult anyways and it is hard to find dedicated healers. How do you plan to implement changes so as not to adversely affect pvp?

I also I know class changes have not been addressed here I would like to ask that you all look into the imbalance between magicka users vs stam users. As a magicka sorcerer & someone who prefers to make magicka toons over stam, there are many issues that make it difficult or impossible to be competitive against stam users. Thanks.

the_Beard

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Goal: Improving Off Balance + Heavy Attacks

• Test making the following changes to make Heavy Attacks feel better:
  • Shorten the Heavy Attack cooldown to approximately 300ms from 700ms
  • Shorten the global cast speed penalty of Heavy Attacks to 50% from 75%

This part seems like a great idea, but also concerns me a bit. The idea of shortening heavy attacks for staves (and possibly 2h sword/axe) by a large margin sounds like a great idea, and could help possibly bridge the currently large dps gap between magicka and stamina. However, if the same treatment is given to dual wield heavy attacks, then not only will the problem of stam doing substantially more dps than magicka still exist, but it could become even worse.

Don't get me wrong, I love how stam currently performs from a dps standpoint, as I play both stamina and magicka in trials. And I do agree mostly with what people say, that since stam is more risk being in melee range constantly, and therefore should do more damage, but they are currently too far ahead of magicka. This argument also becomes a problem because magDK is currently not being used by any competitive raid guilds, because its not worth giving up a melee spot that could otherwise be filled with stamdk, stamsorc, stamnb, or stamplar. Even worse for magplars. Right now for magicka toons, its magsorc, magblade, or roll stam. In the current state, doing heavy attacks on stam dw is NOT a dps loss, and a great way to sustain. For magicka, its not the same story. Doing heavy attacks (which take too long) results in a dps loss, and putting only light attacks in your rotation is a sure fire way to run out of resources. Stam is in a great place at the moment with a good mixture of light and heavy attacks, high dps, and high sustainability.

This is a fine line obviously, rewind to the vMoL days when magsorc was overperforming, and stam mostly wasn't welcome in raids due to survivability issues, and the dps stam was doing wasn't too far ahead of magicka, making magicka seem like the more favorable option back then. Now the table has flipped a bit too far. It's time to re-adjust and try and bring them closer together.

I guess what I'm getting at, is if you're going to make changes to heavy attack cast time, PLEASE keep in mind the current dps performance of stam vs magic, especially considering the likelihood of off-balance uptime being lower. I think a lot of people would agree that if certain things are going to be nerfed (off-balance from the sounds of it), then at least try to improve other combat mechanics in a way that we all don't feel weaker with a new patch.

Strider__Roshin

Wow I love this kind of communication! Thank you!

NBrookus

Rickter wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Please be very cautious here. You have two classes which rely heavily on block in pvp for lack of other mitigation options -- particularly mag DKs, but also stam DK and magplars. And PVE tanks have been hit really hard with collateral damage from past block changes and really don't need to be nerfed.

Adding a CP star which reduces the effectiveness of blocking is a step in the right direction (because it won't affect PVE tanks), but also increases the strength of the zerg versus the outnumbered AGAIN. DK and Templar have no way to proactively disengage from an incoming bad situation -- no expedition and no snare removal or reduction.

In short: it will be very easy to nerf blocking (again) in a way that hurts non-permablocks build more than block builds, and forces classes who must rely on block to dig in deeper.

i think i know why you'd be so concerned with this point

but in all seriousness, make Shattering Blows do additional dmg to blocking opponents as well as shielded opponents. hee hee!

That's a really good idea. By itself that CP star is pretty lackluster. Instead of applying a lingering debuff like siphoner, it would require you do damage to them and reward "tank killer" specs.

Solariken

These are all interesting ideas. The only one that makes me nervous is how you might change interrupt mechanics...

An interrupt-able ability should ALWAYS be interrupt-able, and likewise those abilities should ALWAYS be available to cast. A cooldown/lockout does not sound like a good idea to me.

The current interrupt mechanics are actually pretty cool. Getting off a cast-time ability successfully should feel really awesome. So if you want to change a variable, maybe look at buffing cast-time/channel abilities in some way and maybe even double down on that philosophy by returning skills like Uppercut, Soul Assault, etc to interrupt-able abilities.

Risk vs reward is important.

Kammakazi

Wait, so does this mean Mag DKs are viable again? Will their whips no longer consume off balance?

Avran_Sylt

While my responses are occasionally written as questions, I wish to note that I do not expect any response.

"Ensure that when players are prompted to use a synergy, they can use it"

Is this with the intention that synergies may be moved onto another GCD?
If so, what would the GCD for synergies be?
Would this have potential issues with allowing 'support' players to slot synergy spammables such as Dark Talons, to allow PvE players to do a similar version of Bash Cancelling but with an ability Synergy? (Leading to more damage with more resource regen with the Undaunted Passive). Would damage values of spammable synergy skills need to be looked at as a result?

"Players should always know where a synergy is; working on visual effects to support this

Is the plan to have separate visual cues, one in the game world that can't be turned off, and one in the combat UI, similar to health bars, that can be toggled in the setting menu?
Would Ground based and Target based synergies have distinct differences? I.E: Ground has either a glowing aura or a form of totem, dependent on the skill, whereas Target synergies would have distinct identifiers, such as with Dark Talons.

"Group mates shouldn't have to fight each other to use a synergy

What do you mean by this, exactly? That if two players are interested in using a synergy, they will both be able to use it, rather than it being a race to see who can snag it first?
Could this be accomplished by associating individual cooldowns with synergy skills, much like enchantments? So if one person uses this synergy, they have a longer cooldown on when they can use that synergy again, but another player can use that synergy in the meantime? Would this make it more beneficial to use multiple different synergies in larger groups?

"Synergies are the way to help groups be stronger than solo players, damage and resource sustain should always be better while in a group"

Y'all should introduce an Undaunted ultimate that has a synergy that plays around with the Major Beserk buff (but does so with the group in mind).

"Add a short cooldown to an interrupted ability to add interesting gameplay to interrupts"

Adding cool downs wouldn't make too much sense, as you should be able to do the same thing again after you got interrupted -- only to be interrupted again. However, perhaps you could add something like a momentary cost increase to the associated skills that got interrupted, as you're "readjusting" from the interruption that requires a bit more effort. Some mentioned that adding fatigue/ mental dissonance could be something. Perhaps have that apply for 1-2s after the stun ends from interrupt (or just last the same duration of the stun, so players who are caught with the full stun don't worry about it, but those who actively break from it need to be a bit more careful).

"Add interrupt telegraphs to cast time abilities when players are not CC immune"

Would it be possible to implement the same thing that is present in PvE with the red particle effects that surround the character? Is this already implemented but rarely noticed in PvP?

"Investigate adding something to Champion passives, or an item set to increase the block cost"

Someone already mentioned adding this functionality to the Shattering blows CP. Perhaps have the % additional damage also be equal to the increased block cost placed on players?

"Test the following changes, with the end goal to have Off Balance be more useful for everyone:"

Effect is only consumed if the target is knocked down from a Heavy Attack
-I agree with this
Attacking an Off Balance enemy with a Heavy Attack restores 2x resources
-this would need some testing, my gut says that this would make it very easy to keep up resources with only one heavy attack every other rotation, which could be a good thing?
-could this instead be applied to any synergy effect? or an undaunted ability? (Blood Altar) Or would funneling it into one skill be ill-advised?

AverageJo3Gam3r

Amazing, amazing transparency!

GodHawk

when is this comming out?

the_Beard

Kammakazi wrote: »

Wait, so does this mean Mag DKs are viable again? Will their whips no longer consume off balance?

Let's hope so. If this could be fixed, along with having shorter staff heavy attack cast times, and maybe buff the dmg to flame lash procs a bit more, and I think magDK could be in a really good spot again.

Reverb

In addition to keeping these threads civil, I think those of us participating also have an obligation to remind our fellow forumites that nothing Zeni posts here is set in stone.

If someone, months from now, rants that "they said they would fix ___ and never did, they suck" (this is an obviously heavy handed, arbitrary example) we need to point out that these updates are insight into what they're working on, and not promises.

Using this transparency against them, or not correcting other posters who do so, is a fast way to shut down these lines of communication.

Thank you all for indulging this uncharacteristic, serious post.

ChandraNalaar

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thank you for the communication.

As to block cost, please add the changes to battle spirit.

I agree; I think that permablocking needs to be investigated in pvp for sure, but I think that should be a pvp only change. Permablocking in pve isn't an issue, since the bosses can hit so hard through block anyway. Could you guys add a blocking penalty to battle spirit or something similar? @Gilliamtherogue brings up an excellent point. If you show how this isn't going to completely nerf pve tanks, then folks won't be as up in arms about the proposed changes. Thank you guys for the communication, as well. It means a lot to the player base to have regular updates on what is going on behind the scenes, since we can't see what you guys are working on until it is announced. @ZOS_GinaBruno

jcasini222ub17_ESO

@ZOS_GinaBruno This post and thread is awesome. It always nice to see insight like this. Something that has been discussed before on the boards and I would assume in the office is how the PTS is used, and I think it dovetails well with what you're investigating.

Any thoughts on opening PTS up for true sandbox testing? Some of these listed tests, radical game play changes to test (stuff like halving Battle Spirit, out right removing it, or targeted Battle Spirit- i.e. block/dodge/heal reductions but no health increase), off the wall ideas, everything goes sort of testing. Year round, no guarantees that anything would make the live server. It may free up the limited resources of in house testing and provide a fresh environment to test general ideas, and ideas that you guys would love to test but are can't because of limited resources.

Thanks again for this post and I look forward to more in the coming months.

Vaoh

These are amazing changes planned!

My main interest is in the changes to Off-Balance.

By making it so Heavy Attacks no longer consume Off-Balance, we no longer have to have like 5+ Blockades of Storm, so players can finally use Blockades of Fire! This results in more Magicka-based DPS. It also results i a far better consistency from Off-Balance for groups. Better gameplay. The resource buff helps out everyone in a very good way. So excited!

Another big thing is how these changes affect Magicka DK. By implementing these changes, it would cause Magicka DK to still consume Off-Balance with every whip. As a solution, I would recommend a few different ideas as to how to balance Magicka DK’s Power Lash:
1. Power Lash no longer consumes Off-Balance, but the special effect has a cooldown (1-2seconds probably)
2. Power Lash no longer consumes Off-Balance, The HoT from Power Lash now has a cooldown, but not the extra damage.
3. Power Lash no longer consumes Off-Balance, adjust the duration on the HoT to heal over 4 seconds, but the heal effect has a four second cooldown.
4. Power Lash consumes Off-Balance, but has a cooldown of 4 seconds. The buff would be that a DoT would be attached to it similar to the 4th boss in Falkreath Hold has a DoT attached to his Flame Lash-like ability. It’d be a powerful enough DoT to make it worth using.

Whichever way you go about this, these planned Off-Balance changes are awesome!
Magicka DK interacts differently with Off-Balance than other classes though so they must be accommodated so that players will still want them in trials. The best way (imo) would be to remove the risk of a Magicka DK hurting the entire group’s DPS (cutting out Off-Balance uptime), which would mean not consuming Off-Balance on Power Lash use but with changes made as needed.

We are going to see these changes alter group setup in this way:
• Healers/Tanks will run Blockade of Storms
• DPS will run Blockade of Fire, with a possibly a Blockade of Storms from a Magicka Sorc sometimes based on the situation

Since Frost Staff is meant to be a Support weapon now, perhaps Blockade of Frost could be looked at to be made incentivized as well? So that maybe 1-2 players in group could use it to some benefit. Just a thought. I personally wish for nothing more than for Frost Staff to become a DPS weapon alongside the release of a new weapon for Magicka users (which could be used for tanking).

WrathOfInnos

Dragath wrote: »

be ready to buff mDKs when you change the block calculations.

More like RIP flame lash builds if off-balance is getting immunity.

Lascelly

This is amazing, I love that we'll be getting a constant stream of info each month instead of just watching each patch for the hopes of some info. Thank you guys, great job

Octopuss

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

These are amazing . I love them . And you will be doing this every month ?! I am so happy . I really am .

*sheds a tear*

Yep, the plan is to do a general combat-related update each month. Next month, you can likely expect to see updates on what we talked about here, if anything has changed or pivoted, if we're looking at anything different, etc. And thanks for the constructive feedback so far - the team is reading, and we appreciate you all chiming in with your thoughts!

How about a general development insight? I mean there are other aspects of the game that could/should/are getting some improvements. If - for example - the graphic artists are working on improving some textures or something like that, we sure would like to know about it. And then the engine thing...

LZH

This looks to be a massive step in the right direction. I was not a fan at all of how balance was handled with Morrowind (sweeping changes that completely flipped the game on its head) and felt that incremental changes could've been made like what was done with Homestead, but any increase in group sustainability in PVE is a good change. Currently, all DPS specs with the exception of Magblade rely on heavy attack builds to output BiS dps. This should not be a thing. Heavy attacks should be there for downtime to strategically restore resources, but they should not be a primary means of sustaining a very powerful build. That should be reserved for light attacks - which lends itself to faster paced gameplay.

Waffennacht

Can we buff bow please? If you make the only (significant) damage dealing ability (lethal arrow etc) have a cool down (via interruption), it's even at a worse disadvantage to all the other weapon lines

alephthiago

@ZOS_GinaBruno Can you guys please take a look at the cast time for strife and morphs and why they are slower than crushing shock and others? This was my main complain after the delay on spectral bow was solved.

NirnStorm

@ZOS_GinaBruno whether we like the directions for changes you have listed or not (which I personally really do), I think it is really amazing that you guys are willing to share your thoughts with us. Communicating with us and being transparent like this just makes me and many of us so much happier with the way the combat team handles things in PvP. I think this is the start of something great.
Thank you!

Brutusmax1mus

These changes sound like a huge nerf to templars. From interrupt to block changes. Isn't there already a stun when you get interrupted?

Please do them in a way that won't wreck blocking even more for anyone not in snb.

Beardimus

Great update, the more proactive stuff like this the better

Chufu

Thank you so much for this communication via a monthly combat update!

I love to hear that you're working on synergies!

NyassaV

the_Beard wrote: »

Kammakazi wrote: »

Wait, so does this mean Mag DKs are viable again? Will their whips no longer consume off balance?

Let's hope so. If this could be fixed, along with having shorter staff heavy attack cast times, and maybe buff the dmg to flame lash procs a bit more, and I think magDK could be in a really good spot again.

Last thing they need is a damage buff, sorry. But otherwise I agree