Monthly Combat Update – November

Sandman929

Wow...interesting stuff here. Thanks!

Urza1234

Hey look, ZOS is proactively communicating with us. How do I send Gina cake?

Reverb

Thanks for the update, love the focus on synergy improvement.

CC immunity does not seem to be working correctly, I would really like to see that reviewed and corrected before any new stun is added. In theory I agree that an interrupt should also stun. In practice however, both CC break and CC immunity are unreliable, and I don't want new stuns to exacerbate those problems.

NyassaV

Ditto with Gilliam. Thank you for this

Alcast

sweet

Ffastyl

One thing to note for Off-Balance is there are very few sources of the debuff. The most common source is blocking a heavy attack, but that mechanic was removed from player versus player interaction years ago. Whether or not you make the debuff more accessible is entirely up to you, but you should be aware of this while making any changes.

As I recall on block cost reduction threads with math, changing the formula may allow the old cost tick rate of twice per second to prevent permablocking -- reverting the change to four ticks per second. This would greatly improve (honestly, restore) the viability of blocking for builds not specialized in it.

Speeding up heavy attacks would be nice (it is a buff afterall), but do keep in mind the reason you reduced their damage previously. Increasing their attack speed would offset the DPS debuff of the previous tweak, so you may need to debuff heavy attack damage again. This would have the biggest impact on player versus player as what matters is spike damage rather than sustained DPS.

Turning Interrupt into a full stun is something I feel conflicted about. On the one hand it empowers the mechanic, providing a bigger opportunity to counter attack; but on the other hand it provides the victim CC-immunity. This is a similar issue to Eclipse for Templar: a decent mechanic with too large a drawback. Whether CC-immunity is a balanced tradeoff depends entirely on how powerful the interrupt stun and damage are.

DHale

Don’t mess up blocking for pve. There is no reason why falkreath and blood forge bosses should hit me as the tank for forty k when my resistance is capped and I have 38 k health. I need to be able to... you know tank.

Waffennacht

Agreed we need to know if you're adding cool downs to abilities or to the interrupt

Probably the most important bit I read. I would hate to see cool downs on abilities

Minno

Thanks Gina (and team)!

My thoughts below in bold:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’d like to begin giving you a bit more insight as to what the combat team is currently working on, save for any new features or systems that we simply aren’t ready to discuss yet. The plan is to make a new post similar to this each month. In order for this to work, though, everyone must understand that this is all work in development and has a high probability to change. As long as discussions stay civil, we’ll continue posting these updates.

With that said, below are a few things (not everything!) the combat team is currently working on for Update 17.

Goal: Improve Synergies

• Ensure that when players are prompted to use a synergy, they can always use itagreed
• Players should always know where a synergy is; working to improve visual effects to support thisagreed
• Group mates shouldn’t have to fight each other to use a synergy
• When players use a synergy, it should fire immediately with no delay should synergies stop being a button proc ? I wonder how combat would be if synergies could be activated through in-game actions. For example, templar's purge gives a purge to all debuffs but the button is hard to press in fast combat. Should this button be replaced with "activating a heal" or "dodge rolling" or "using a potion" in which the ability uses a smart system to activate the synergy? How would this look for players in fast paced combat situations? This would require a separate thread, and hopefully the Devs can give us detailed insight when the time comes.
• Synergies are the way to help groups be stronger than solo players, damage and resource sustain should always be better while in a group agree and disagree. If dmg and sustain for large groups are to be stronger, should lesser numbers have the ability to be faster to compensate?
• Review and standardize balance for synergy abilities; Ultimate synergies should be stronger than regular abilitiesagreed

Goal: Improve Interrupt

• Add a stun to interrupts – if a player gets interrupted, they get stunned (and therefore get CC immunity when they break it)agreed. will stun be unblockable or blockable?
• Add a short cooldown to an interrupted ability to add interesting gameplay to interruptsagreed
• Add interrupt telegraphs to cast time abilities when players are not CC immunehow will the animations work when combat is already showing a multitude of effects and with lag

Goal: Investigating Perma-blocking

• Adjust the block calculations so that cost reduction happens first (might have to reduce the block cost slightly as a result)will this impact pve? Ultimate goal is to not impact PVE, as they are angry at us PVPers as it is lol
• Investigate adding something to Champion passives, or an item set to increase the block costin general, players hate sets being used to balance the game. Adding a CP passive or battlespirit blanket would function better.

Goal: Improving Off Balance + Heavy Attacks

• Test the following changes, with the end goal to have Off Balance be more useful for everyone:
  • Effect is only consumed if the target is knocked down from a Heavy Attack
  • Attacking an Off Balance enemy with a Heavy Attack restores 2x resources
  • After Off Balance ends, the target is immune for a period of time
• Test making the following changes to make Heavy Attacks feel better:
  • Shorten the Heavy Attack cooldown to approximately 300ms from 700ms
  • Shorten the global cast speed penalty of Heavy Attacks to 50% from 75%

Heavy attack and off balance mentioned above is a great way to add sustain with an interesting mechanic. 100% would approve of this change. Will the change also bring back the old Heavy Attack on off balance knocking players down? if so, would this knockdown be unblockable? And how does Miat's addon fit into this for PC users? I like the faster speed being used to offset the regen being locked out when your target blocks.

You may notice we haven’t listed any class balance changes in this list. This doesn’t mean there won’t be any adjustments; we’re just still looking at what needs to be tweaked. I hope we can have separate discussion on class balance as well. Based on what im seeing, the combat team is looking to fill in the giant holes of the general system imbalances before adding foundation fixes to the classes, and hopefully that is a good road map ahead.

technohic

Appreciate the transparency. Only thing I would say in the interruption; is please consider cast and channels generally are not preferred as is. Making them have even more drawbacks should be considered in the overall power of the abilities. Also; related note would be on where we are heading as far as API exposing things such as Miats makes use of.

Vynn

Thank you for increasing communication ZOS_GinaBruno. It is a step in the right direction.

FrancisCrawford

Good choice on addressing synergies.

E.g., non-Templar healers would like to make heavy use of Energy Orb, but many teammates understandably fail to grab the synergy as it floats by.

And of course the whole idea of one player "stealing" a synergy from teammates has always been weird.

Hecker777

Just wanna highlight one thing, PLEASE EVERYONE no matter what they post keep it constructive and Q.Q in discord or TS if you must. This is a step forward for ZOS, we want this to keep happening

Bowser

Add a feature that give me a list of all the synergies and lets me choose the order of priority. I'm tired of not getting shards because they get picked up by someone else while I have to go through conduit, purify, orbs (waiting for them to float away), and all the other damn synergies that I didn't want.

Elsterchen

Thank you so much for opening communication.

Lets work together to get the synergy situation reflecting everything in patch notes April 1. 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

FIXES & IMPROVEMENTS, BASE GAME PATCH


[*]Added a new Synergy Synergy system.

• We heard you like Synergies, so Synergy Synergies are Synergies that synergize with Synergies.
  
• Synergizing with a Synergy has small chance to trigger a Synergy Synergy event, which, if synergized with, will activate a Synergy Synergy.
• Abilities with Synergies can trigger Synergy Synergy events, provided you have synergized with a Synergy Synergy recently.
  
• Note: Synergy Synergy Synergies will be introduced in a future patch, to prepare for Synergy Synergy Synergy Synergies.

Well, this combat Update is a seriously very welcome change.

Personally I like to push @Gilliamtherogue's comment about Interruption, its an interesting mechanic, please be gentle with changes.

Parrot1986

Loving the transparency of this, great way of interaction with the community.

Can I check someone on the synergies goals @ZOS_GinaBruno

Does the below include (or can it be looked at) when multiple synergies are available there’s an easier way to select the one you want? So many times I’ve seen a shard synergy go to click only for it to change to purify then the shard option disappears.

Goal: Improve Synergies
Ensure that when players are prompted to use a synergy, they can always use it
Players should always know where a synergy is; working to improve visual effects to support this
Group mates shouldn’t have to fight each other to use a synergy
When players use a synergy, it should fire immediately with no delay
Synergies are the way to help groups be stronger than solo players, damage and resource sustain should always be better while in a group
Review and standardize balance for synergy abilities; Ultimate synergies should be stronger than regular abilities

ZOS_GinaBruno

Liofa wrote: »

These are amazing . I love them . And you will be doing this every month ?! I am so happy . I really am .

*sheds a tear*

Yep, the plan is to do a general combat-related update each month. Next month, you can likely expect to see updates on what we talked about here, if anything has changed or pivoted, if we're looking at anything different, etc. And thanks for the constructive feedback so far - the team is reading, and we appreciate you all chiming in with your thoughts!

Marabornwingrion

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Review and standardize balance for synergy abilities; Ultimate synergies should be stronger than regular abilities

In shortcut: "we're gonna nerf non-ultimate synergies."

arkansas_ESO

Awesome, this is a great start to increasing communication between dev and player.

To permablocking:

The reason it works is because of how much you can stack block cost reduction (Sturdy trait, jewelry enchants, block cost reduction CP, sword and shield passives, etc.) Previous attempts to nerf permablocking (changing the block cost tic from .5 seconds to .25) just made block less appealing for well-rounded builds and didn't hurt the builds that could tank zergs by investing so much into block cost reduction. If you want to stop the godtanks, nerf Sturdy, nerf CP (notice how there's no permablock builds in the non CP campaign?), nerf the shieldplay enchant, but blanket nerfs (like adding a "Increase the cost of Block by 25% to the Battle Spirit buff) will only make block less appealing to well-rounded builds, while making the builds that are already permablocking stronger by comparison.

Mady

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

These are amazing . I love them . And you will be doing this every month ?! I am so happy . I really am .

*sheds a tear*

Yep, the plan is to do a general combat-related update each month. Next month, you can likely expect to see updates on what we talked about here, if anything has changed or pivoted, if we're looking at anything different, etc. And thanks for the constructive feedback so far - the team is reading, and we appreciate you all chiming in with your thoughts!

This is just awesome!

Kilandros

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’d like to begin giving you a bit more insight as to what the combat team is currently working on, save for any new features or systems that we simply aren’t ready to discuss yet. The plan is to make a new post similar to this each month. In order for this to work, though, everyone must understand that this is all work in development and has a high probability to change. As long as discussions stay civil, we’ll continue posting these updates.

With that said, below are a few things (not everything!) the combat team is currently working on for Update 17.

Goal: Improve Synergies

• Ensure that when players are prompted to use a synergy, they can always use it
• Players should always know where a synergy is; working to improve visual effects to support this
• Group mates shouldn’t have to fight each other to use a synergy
• When players use a synergy, it should fire immediately with no delay
• Synergies are the way to help groups be stronger than solo players, damage and resource sustain should always be better while in a group
• Review and standardize balance for synergy abilities; Ultimate synergies should be stronger than regular abilities

Goal: Improve Interrupt

• Add a stun to interrupts – if a player gets interrupted, they get stunned (and therefore get CC immunity when they break it)
• Add a short cooldown to an interrupted ability to add interesting gameplay to interrupts
• Add interrupt telegraphs to cast time abilities when players are not CC immune

Goal: Investigating Perma-blocking

• Adjust the block calculations so that cost reduction happens first (might have to reduce the block cost slightly as a result)
• Investigate adding something to Champion passives, or an item set to increase the block cost

Goal: Improving Off Balance + Heavy Attacks

• Test the following changes, with the end goal to have Off Balance be more useful for everyone:
  • Effect is only consumed if the target is knocked down from a Heavy Attack
  • Attacking an Off Balance enemy with a Heavy Attack restores 2x resources
  • After Off Balance ends, the target is immune for a period of time
• Test making the following changes to make Heavy Attacks feel better:
  • Shorten the Heavy Attack cooldown to approximately 300ms from 700ms
  • Shorten the global cast speed penalty of Heavy Attacks to 50% from 75%

You may notice we haven’t listed any class balance changes in this list. This doesn’t mean there won’t be any adjustments; we’re just still looking at what needs to be tweaked.

Wow this is amazing! Great seeing what you guys are working on and I look forward to more information next month.

One thing that I would like to flag is the potential imbalance of adding cooldowns to abilities that are interrupted. For starters, I don't think this game should go down the cooldown avenue--ever. There are loads of other MMOs out there that rely on this mechanic and one of the things that sets ESO apart from them is the lack thereof. Second, a ranged interrupt (Crushing Shock) is already mindlessly spammed in PvP and adding cooldowns to interrupts would punish solo/small-scale players even more when outnumbered.

Rickter

I think i speak for the entire enthusiastic pvp community when i say: thank you zos from the bottom of our hearts

LukosCreyden

This may not be the most constructive feedback, but thank you SO VERY MUCH for this post! Getting some insight into what you guys and girls are working on is sure to make a lot of people happy. This is the communication everyone has been asking for!
Thanks!

wyterice24b14_ESO

All looks great, I'm hoping there is something coming up for targeting as well. It can be rather clunky, thanks!

Sargentwilko51

Fantastic post is fantastic!!!

Super happy to see synergies being a target of being looked at as in end game, they can be super frustrating..

Ringing the same 'Battle Spirit' bell for block cost changes as well.

Honestly, I never understood why block cost reduction acted differently than skill cost reduction (ie applies in a different place in the math...)

And anything, and I mean anything, that can be done to keep the 'sustain meta' going while also simultaneously working to improve the 'feeling' of faster combat is a huge plus.

Kudos!! Keep this up!!!

Asardes

Block cost should have a smaller base cost than it has now but it should increase by an amount, stacking a number of times if other attacks are blocked within a certain time frame as a sort of blocking fatigue. This should prevent perma-blocking and encourage situational, well thought blocking instead.

helediron

This heavy attack fetish is killing all combat fun. Zzzzzzzz dot zzzzzzzzzz dot zzzzzzzzz dot zzzzzzz...

NBrookus

Thanks for the update; love seeing these.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Goal: Investigating Perma-blocking

• Adjust the block calculations so that cost reduction happens first (might have to reduce the block cost slightly as a result)
• Investigate adding something to Champion passives, or an item set to increase the block cost

Please be very cautious here. You have two classes which rely heavily on block in pvp for lack of other mitigation options -- particularly mag DKs, but also stam DK and magplars. And PVE tanks have been hit really hard with collateral damage from past block changes and really don't need to be nerfed.

Adding a CP star which reduces the effectiveness of blocking is a step in the right direction (because it won't affect PVE tanks), but also increases the strength of the zerg versus the outnumbered AGAIN. DK and Templar have no way to proactively disengage from an incoming bad situation -- no expedition and no snare removal* or reduction.

In short: it will be very easy to nerf blocking (again) in a way that hurts non-permablock builds more than block builds, and forces classes who must rely on block to dig in deeper.

*EDIT: Except an expensive purge available to templars

altemriel

nice, open communication and listening to our feedbacks is always good

Sandman929

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Synergies are the way to help groups be stronger than solo players, damage and resource sustain should always be better while in a group

It's great to see that things like this are getting attention. The changes regarding Off Balance, which is something I use with the Truth set and enjoy, sound great.
This comment, however, is confusing. Groups already have every advantage over solo players by simply being groups. I think strong, reliable synergies are great for fighting outnumbered (small group Vs larger group), but I don't understand why Group Vs Solo needs the scales tilted even more in favor of the group.
It's not the potential changes that I take issue with, but the reasoning seems strange.