so... will now everyone change from HA to light and medium..?!?

Trashs1

thats the question

after the removal of wrath, whats actually more than the half of a hundings/julianos 5 pice bonus will u change from ha or will u stay?

since i dont know how to make a voting.. just post here your thoughts

ezeepeezee

My stam warden in 5 heavy hits more than hard enough to kill without its 7th, Fury or wrath proc'd. Those things just make it even more killy.

Azurya

don´t worry next patch/downgrade the next armourtyp is on mark for a NERF!

eso_nya

no

FloppyTouch

Nope my mdk will still rock heavy

Chilly-McFreeze

Why should I change to medium? It is in a bad spot now and it will still be the same coming next patch.
Just because heavy will be gutted doesn't mean that the issues of medium go away.
On the other hand, LA is already decent with it's passives and sets, so in that regard I would probably swing to bedsheats.

Bajlk

No, why?

DDuke

Pretty much... I think the Shuffle change would've been enough to atleast balance medium vs heavy armor, but the change to Wrath absolutely guts Heavy Armor.


For example, as a magplar you'll now always be better off with Riposte light armor S&B setup.

Previously one could argue that heavy armor let you get a little bit more offense by not having to run Riposte for defense and being able to use an offensive set like Julianos (or Axiom next patch) and together with Wrath get a bit more damage, but now with Wrath gone the numbers just don't add up anymore.


Stupid change by ZOS, they should've just buffed medium armor's survivability instead of nerfing heavy to the ground.

Trashs1

DDuke wrote: »

Pretty much... I think the Shuffle change would've been enough to atleast balance medium vs heavy armor, but the change to Wrath absolutely guts Heavy Armor.


For example, as a magplar you'll now always be better off with Riposte light armor S&B setup.

Previously one could argue that heavy armor let you get a little bit more offense by not having to run Riposte for defense and being able to use an offensive set like Julianos (or Axiom next patch) and together with Wrath get a bit more damage, but now with Wrath gone the numbers just don't add up anymore.


Stupid change by ZOS, they should've just buffed medium armor's survivability instead of nerfing heavy to the ground.

yes i played my stamblade on heavy because of soul assoult and stuff but now im going 100% back to medium

raasdal

Nah. The 200 WPD was not why i am using HA to begin with. But it will sure make Medium more viable, that is for sure.

Biro123

Med on stam sorc for super-duper mobility

Probably stay heavy on stamplar since I can still purge snares.

IMHO, the wrath change is a smaller part of the decision than a snare-removal.

thankyourat

I hope so. Heavy armor is the reason i hardly play anymore. You just can't do anything sometimes if you get 2 or more heavy armor players beating on you. It's just frustrating gameplay. The combination of heavy armor and cp is just too much. Light and medium targets actually die when they make mistakes

Jade1986

I pretty much always use medium on stam toons, light on mag toons and heavy on tanks, so.....

Brutusmax1mus

Assuming 5 pc in the tree.
Light armor-
20% Regen
10%Cost reduction
Spell resistance
Crit- 2.1k with 5 pc
Penetration

Great damage perks vs anything without a shield, worthless against. They also do not effect healing.

Medium-
Crit- 1.6k so slightly less
20% Regen
10% cost reduction
20% Sneak cost reduction-ok it's bad
15% detectable radius reduction- ok its bad
12%weapon damage
15% faster while sprinting
20% roll dodge cost reduction- base is 3.6k cost

Mediums damage passives effect shields and healing, however do not provide as much raw damage vs a target. Good trade off imo. They need the healing. The main issue with medium imo is zos making everything undodgable.

New Heavy-
1.8k physical and spell resistance
20%heath recovery- useless on most builds
540 Stamina and magicka given when hit every 4 seconds. Essentially 135 stam and mag regen conditionally. Great for off pool regen, awful for main pool.
10%max health
8% healing recieved
25%more resource return on heavy attacks.

Yes they make you able to take more damage. But 1.8k resistance, average 2.5k hp if they're building for damage, and 8% extra healing(hard countered by defile), hardly make anyone unkillable. BLOCKING does.

FIX BLOCKING FORMULA SO IT EFFECTS AND FIXES PERMABLOCKING AND DOESNT IMPACT EVERY OTHER BUILD BUT THE ONE YOU ARE TRYING TO IMPACT!!!!

Stop making everything undodgable. It's a whole armor types defense.

I still love medium armor.

Trashs1

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Assuming 5 pc in the tree.
Light armor-
20% Regen
10%Cost reduction
Spell resistance
Crit- 2.1k with 5 pc
Penetration

Great damage perks vs anything without a shield, worthless against. They also do not effect healing.

Medium-
Crit- 1.6k so slightly less
20% Regen
10% cost reduction
20% Sneak cost reduction-ok it's bad
15% detectable radius reduction- ok its bad
12%weapon damage
15% faster while sprinting
20% roll dodge cost reduction- base is 3.6k cost

Mediums damage passives effect shields and healing, however do not provide as much raw damage vs a target. Good trade off imo. They need the healing. The main issue with medium imo is zos making everything undodgable.

New Heavy-
1.8k physical and spell resistance
20%heath recovery- useless on most builds
540 Stamina and magicka given when hit every 4 seconds. Essentially 135 stam and mag regen conditionally. Great for off pool regen, awful for main pool.
10%max health
8% healing recieved
25%more resource return on heavy attacks.

Yes they make you able to take more damage. But 1.8k resistance, average 2.5k hp if they're building for damage, and 8% extra healing(hard countered by defile), hardly make anyone unkillable. BLOCKING does.

FIX BLOCKING FORMULA SO IT EFFECTS AND FIXES PERMABLOCKING AND DOESNT IMPACT EVERY OTHER BUILD BUT THE ONE YOU ARE TRYING TO IMPACT!!!!

Stop making everything undodgable. It's a whole armor types defense.

I still love medium armor.

i see your point. good statement in my eyes

raasdal

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Assuming 5 pc in the tree.
Light armor-
20% Regen
10%Cost reduction
Spell resistance
Crit- 2.1k with 5 pc
Penetration

Great damage perks vs anything without a shield, worthless against. They also do not effect healing.

Medium-
Crit- 1.6k so slightly less
20% Regen
10% cost reduction
20% Sneak cost reduction-ok it's bad
15% detectable radius reduction- ok its bad
12%weapon damage
15% faster while sprinting
20% roll dodge cost reduction- base is 3.6k cost

Mediums damage passives effect shields and healing, however do not provide as much raw damage vs a target. Good trade off imo. They need the healing. The main issue with medium imo is zos making everything undodgable.

New Heavy-
1.8k physical and spell resistance
20%heath recovery- useless on most builds
540 Stamina and magicka given when hit every 4 seconds. Essentially 135 stam and mag regen conditionally. Great for off pool regen, awful for main pool.
10%max health
8% healing recieved
25%more resource return on heavy attacks.

Yes they make you able to take more damage. But 1.8k resistance, average 2.5k hp if they're building for damage, and 8% extra healing(hard countered by defile), hardly make anyone unkillable. BLOCKING does.

FIX BLOCKING FORMULA SO IT EFFECTS AND FIXES PERMABLOCKING AND DOESNT IMPACT EVERY OTHER BUILD BUT THE ONE YOU ARE TRYING TO IMPACT!!!!

Stop making everything undodgable. It's a whole armor types defense.

I still love medium armor.

The difference between HA and MA/LA is not 1800 resist. It is more. You are only comparing Passives, and forgetting to account for the natural resistance of each armor type.

KingJ

lmao hell no I'm not switching to medium because I lost 200 weapon damage.I'm still gonna have way more weapon damage than most medium builds in heavy.

Brutusmax1mus

raasdal wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Assuming 5 pc in the tree.
Light armor-
20% Regen
10%Cost reduction
Spell resistance
Crit- 2.1k with 5 pc
Penetration

Great damage perks vs anything without a shield, worthless against. They also do not effect healing.

Medium-
Crit- 1.6k so slightly less
20% Regen
10% cost reduction
20% Sneak cost reduction-ok it's bad
15% detectable radius reduction- ok its bad
12%weapon damage
15% faster while sprinting
20% roll dodge cost reduction- base is 3.6k cost

Mediums damage passives effect shields and healing, however do not provide as much raw damage vs a target. Good trade off imo. They need the healing. The main issue with medium imo is zos making everything undodgable.

New Heavy-
1.8k physical and spell resistance
20%heath recovery- useless on most builds
540 Stamina and magicka given when hit every 4 seconds. Essentially 135 stam and mag regen conditionally. Great for off pool regen, awful for main pool.
10%max health
8% healing recieved
25%more resource return on heavy attacks.

Yes they make you able to take more damage. But 1.8k resistance, average 2.5k hp if they're building for damage, and 8% extra healing(hard countered by defile), hardly make anyone unkillable. BLOCKING does.

FIX BLOCKING FORMULA SO IT EFFECTS AND FIXES PERMABLOCKING AND DOESNT IMPACT EVERY OTHER BUILD BUT THE ONE YOU ARE TRYING TO IMPACT!!!!

Stop making everything undodgable. It's a whole armor types defense.

I still love medium armor.

The difference between HA and MA/LA is not 1800 resist. It is more. You are only comparing Passives, and forgetting to account for the natural resistance of each armor type.

I was just stating passives of the armor types, Not the innate increase to resistances. Its not that much more resistance in just heavy over medium, and that in itself doesn't make you tanky. I think its about 3k.

Crit resists and blocking make you tanky.

Lexxypwns

Light has been better than heavy, passive wise, since the sharpened nerf.

There's simply no efficient way to recoup the penetration that light armor provides back into a build without sacrificing too many other things. If you're a magika build and you've been running heavy you've been seriously gimping your damage just for some tankiness you can pick up elsewhere.

Medium still has at least 1 really bad combat passive(sneak speed) and 1 that's less desirable (dodge roll cost reduction) because of several nerfs to the defensive mechanic it promotes.

DDuke

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Light has been better than heavy, passive wise, since the sharpened nerf.

There's simply no efficient way to recoup the penetration that light armor provides back into a build without sacrificing too many other things. If you're a magika build and you've been running heavy you've been seriously gimping your damage just for some tankiness you can pick up elsewhere.

Medium still has at least 1 really bad combat passive(sneak speed) and 1 that's less desirable (dodge roll cost reduction) because of several nerfs to the defensive mechanic it promotes.

Well, in a certain way that's true - but keep in mind that penetration is useless vs dmg shields, where as heavy armor Wrath passive (and any further damage you could pick up by not having to use a defensive set) still work against them.


That said, with Wrath passive gone there's no real alternative to light armor anymore, it'll just deal better damage in every scenario.

Baconlad

Ive been saying this for awhile. But the choice for players to decide which armor type depends on how they want to mitigate and deal damage. Unfortunatly it does mean some classes are better at using certain armor than others.

Heavy armor is about mitigating damage outright, without doing anything, and healing up. Its great for in your face sustained pressure, less up front damage as you dont need it to stack sustained pressure. Perfect for sweeps build or DK whip build or melee dot heavy builds. DK, Templar work best due to our sustained damage being amazing and the need to be in our enemies face longer.

Medium armor is more of a get in burst and get out style in melee and best for ranged builds. Dodge rolls are heavy and shuffle now being only medium solidifies this thought. For example, DK hits with poison arrow, charges, heavy attck wrecking blows, maybe dawnbreaker and done, dodge rolls out or to next target. Stamsorc, stamblade work best in this armor for melee fosused builds. All classes work great at range in this.

Light armor is best for burst. Similar to medium, defense is mainly shielding. Magden, magNB, magsorc will still be best in this armor and burst playstyle.

This information is accuate although certain gearsets help to break the mold a bit. Wizards riposte comes to mind, allowing a sustained damaging magplar to be up close for long periods of time and not have to use shields and still not die at the drop of a hat. Or ravager which follows the burst mentality but allows up close for long periods.

Medium armor is fine now with shuffle change, heavy is fine now, and light is fine...it depends on you class and weapon choice as any toon can be build to use any armor type effectively and brutally. You just need to figure out what skills you want to use and whether or not you want to burst or sustained. You like dodgerolling or blocking? You like damage shields (magden) or mitigation and healing (magplar).

Wrath removal is whatever. Neither here or there

Lexxypwns

DDuke wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Light has been better than heavy, passive wise, since the sharpened nerf.

There's simply no efficient way to recoup the penetration that light armor provides back into a build without sacrificing too many other things. If you're a magika build and you've been running heavy you've been seriously gimping your damage just for some tankiness you can pick up elsewhere.

Medium still has at least 1 really bad combat passive(sneak speed) and 1 that's less desirable (dodge roll cost reduction) because of several nerfs to the defensive mechanic it promotes.

Well, in a certain way that's true - but keep in mind that penetration is useless vs dmg shields, where as heavy armor Wrath passive (and any further damage you could pick up by not having to use a defensive set) still work against them.


That said, with Wrath passive gone there's no real alternative to light armor anymore, it'll just deal better damage in every scenario.

keep in mind that if you're having trouble killing builds whose primary defense is damage shields that light armor will actually do more than heavy to help you. This is simply because the burst available in light is such that you can routinely melt people within the window of a single, well-timed, CC. Whereas, in heavy, you have to allow wrath to charge and still need another big damage set to approach the damage light armor has.

If you're trying to brute force damage shields down in 2017 that's a YOU issue not a question of whether light is stronger than heavy. For reference, wrath adds ~2% damage and concentration adds ~8% and that's not even counting the crit passives. A typical damage set is going to give you about 5-7% damage. Light was already superior in every scenario because nobody keeps a 100% uptime on shields and as soon as you hit that health pool light armor adds like 13% more damage than heavy. The key to killing someone who is relying on damage shield for their defense is a well timed CC+burst combo as their shield drops either from pressure or from timing.

Baconlad wrote: »

Ive been saying this for awhile. But the choice for players to decide which armor type depends on how they want to mitigate and deal damage. Unfortunatly it does mean some classes are better at using certain armor than others.

Heavy armor is about mitigating damage outright, without doing anything, and healing up. Its great for in your face sustained pressure, less up front damage as you dont need it to stack sustained pressure. Perfect for sweeps build or DK whip build or melee dot heavy builds. DK, Templar work best due to our sustained damage being amazing and the need to be in our enemies face longer.

Medium armor is more of a get in burst and get out style in melee and best for ranged builds. Dodge rolls are heavy and shuffle now being only medium solidifies this thought. For example, DK hits with poison arrow, charges, heavy attck wrecking blows, maybe dawnbreaker and done, dodge rolls out or to next target. Stamsorc, stamblade work best in this armor for melee fosused builds. All classes work great at range in this.

Light armor is best for burst. Similar to medium, defense is mainly shielding. Magden, magNB, magsorc will still be best in this armor and burst playstyle.

This information is accuate although certain gearsets help to break the mold a bit. Wizards riposte comes to mind, allowing a sustained damaging magplar to be up close for long periods of time and not have to use shields and still not die at the drop of a hat. Or ravager which follows the burst mentality but allows up close for long periods.

Medium armor is fine now with shuffle change, heavy is fine now, and light is fine...it depends on you class and weapon choice as any toon can be build to use any armor type effectively and brutally. You just need to figure out what skills you want to use and whether or not you want to burst or sustained. You like dodgerolling or blocking? You like damage shields (magden) or mitigation and healing (magplar).

Wrath removal is whatever. Neither here or there

Except light armor is and has been better for pressure builds since the sharpened nerf

Vaoh

Nope. Heavy Armor is still the best choice by a lot.

The loss of a *fully buffed* bonus of 200-300 weapon/spell damage will change absolutely nothing.

Xsorus

Well it'll still be used by DK's, cause they don't really have an option in medium in my opinion.

I might run that new crafted set and Ravager on my Templar though in medium (the 5k resist one)

Xvorg

In my Mageblade I've always used 5 light

DeadlyRecluse

Probably not.

I'm certainly expecting a significant movement towards medium from stam characters (especially since the shuffle restriction is pushing them that way already) and some magicka characters going light, but a good number will stay in heavy.

Waffennacht

"this changes nothing" crowd = Stam heavy user

"Why should I pick anything other than Light?" = Magicka crowd

DDuke

Lexxypwns wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Light has been better than heavy, passive wise, since the sharpened nerf.

There's simply no efficient way to recoup the penetration that light armor provides back into a build without sacrificing too many other things. If you're a magika build and you've been running heavy you've been seriously gimping your damage just for some tankiness you can pick up elsewhere.

Medium still has at least 1 really bad combat passive(sneak speed) and 1 that's less desirable (dodge roll cost reduction) because of several nerfs to the defensive mechanic it promotes.

Well, in a certain way that's true - but keep in mind that penetration is useless vs dmg shields, where as heavy armor Wrath passive (and any further damage you could pick up by not having to use a defensive set) still work against them.


That said, with Wrath passive gone there's no real alternative to light armor anymore, it'll just deal better damage in every scenario.

keep in mind that if you're having trouble killing builds whose primary defense is damage shields that light armor will actually do more than heavy to help you. This is simply because the burst available in light is such that you can routinely melt people within the window of a single, well-timed, CC. Whereas, in heavy, you have to allow wrath to charge and still need another big damage set to approach the damage light armor has.

If you're trying to brute force damage shields down in 2017 that's a YOU issue not a question of whether light is stronger than heavy. For reference, wrath adds ~2% damage and concentration adds ~8% and that's not even counting the crit passives. A typical damage set is going to give you about 5-7% damage. Light was already superior in every scenario because nobody keeps a 100% uptime on shields and as soon as you hit that health pool light armor adds like 13% more damage than heavy. The key to killing someone who is relying on damage shield for their defense is a well timed CC+burst combo as their shield drops either from pressure or from timing.

Well, I've always done better with heavy armor on my magplar than with light - granted I haven't played my magplar much recently.

There aren't much good, reliable CC options for a magplar (nor a lot of burst damage for a sweeps focused build) which might have a lot to do with it - it's always been important to be able to pressure down those shields efficiently with sweeps & DoTs on magplar.


I can see how light armor should typically be better for other classes (& Dark Flare magplar builds) though.

Not that it matters after next patch, light will just be better for all builds

Brutusmax1mus

Xsorus wrote: »

Well it'll still be used by DK's, cause they don't really have an option in medium in my opinion.

I might run that new crafted set and Ravager on my Templar though in medium (the 5k resist one)

My dk is in 2h/snb 5 medium 2 heavy and i love it. Petrify is an easy offbalance, armor of truth on snb, proc with petrify, swap to 2h with set of choice, i use shackle breaker in medium. Truth drops unique rings with stamina in ds2, and a unique infused axe in ds1. Easy farm.

Lexxypwns

DDuke wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Light has been better than heavy, passive wise, since the sharpened nerf.

There's simply no efficient way to recoup the penetration that light armor provides back into a build without sacrificing too many other things. If you're a magika build and you've been running heavy you've been seriously gimping your damage just for some tankiness you can pick up elsewhere.

Medium still has at least 1 really bad combat passive(sneak speed) and 1 that's less desirable (dodge roll cost reduction) because of several nerfs to the defensive mechanic it promotes.

Well, in a certain way that's true - but keep in mind that penetration is useless vs dmg shields, where as heavy armor Wrath passive (and any further damage you could pick up by not having to use a defensive set) still work against them.


That said, with Wrath passive gone there's no real alternative to light armor anymore, it'll just deal better damage in every scenario.

keep in mind that if you're having trouble killing builds whose primary defense is damage shields that light armor will actually do more than heavy to help you. This is simply because the burst available in light is such that you can routinely melt people within the window of a single, well-timed, CC. Whereas, in heavy, you have to allow wrath to charge and still need another big damage set to approach the damage light armor has.

If you're trying to brute force damage shields down in 2017 that's a YOU issue not a question of whether light is stronger than heavy. For reference, wrath adds ~2% damage and concentration adds ~8% and that's not even counting the crit passives. A typical damage set is going to give you about 5-7% damage. Light was already superior in every scenario because nobody keeps a 100% uptime on shields and as soon as you hit that health pool light armor adds like 13% more damage than heavy. The key to killing someone who is relying on damage shield for their defense is a well timed CC+burst combo as their shield drops either from pressure or from timing.

Well, I've always done better with heavy armor on my magplar than with light - granted I haven't played my magplar much recently.

There aren't much good, reliable CC options for a magplar (nor a lot of burst damage for a sweeps focused build) which might have a lot to do with it - it's always been important to be able to pressure down those shields efficiently with sweeps & DoTs on magplar.


I can see how light armor should typically be better for other classes (& Dark Flare magplar builds) though.

Not that it matters after next patch, light will just be better for all builds

Destructive reach is the best CC option for magplar btw and imo its the best CC in the game that doesn't break block.

DDuke

Lexxypwns wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Light has been better than heavy, passive wise, since the sharpened nerf.

There's simply no efficient way to recoup the penetration that light armor provides back into a build without sacrificing too many other things. If you're a magika build and you've been running heavy you've been seriously gimping your damage just for some tankiness you can pick up elsewhere.

Medium still has at least 1 really bad combat passive(sneak speed) and 1 that's less desirable (dodge roll cost reduction) because of several nerfs to the defensive mechanic it promotes.

Well, in a certain way that's true - but keep in mind that penetration is useless vs dmg shields, where as heavy armor Wrath passive (and any further damage you could pick up by not having to use a defensive set) still work against them.


That said, with Wrath passive gone there's no real alternative to light armor anymore, it'll just deal better damage in every scenario.

keep in mind that if you're having trouble killing builds whose primary defense is damage shields that light armor will actually do more than heavy to help you. This is simply because the burst available in light is such that you can routinely melt people within the window of a single, well-timed, CC. Whereas, in heavy, you have to allow wrath to charge and still need another big damage set to approach the damage light armor has.

If you're trying to brute force damage shields down in 2017 that's a YOU issue not a question of whether light is stronger than heavy. For reference, wrath adds ~2% damage and concentration adds ~8% and that's not even counting the crit passives. A typical damage set is going to give you about 5-7% damage. Light was already superior in every scenario because nobody keeps a 100% uptime on shields and as soon as you hit that health pool light armor adds like 13% more damage than heavy. The key to killing someone who is relying on damage shield for their defense is a well timed CC+burst combo as their shield drops either from pressure or from timing.

Well, I've always done better with heavy armor on my magplar than with light - granted I haven't played my magplar much recently.

There aren't much good, reliable CC options for a magplar (nor a lot of burst damage for a sweeps focused build) which might have a lot to do with it - it's always been important to be able to pressure down those shields efficiently with sweeps & DoTs on magplar.


I can see how light armor should typically be better for other classes (& Dark Flare magplar builds) though.

Not that it matters after next patch, light will just be better for all builds

Destructive reach is the best CC option for magplar btw and imo its the best CC in the game that doesn't break block.

Yeah, it's good - but requires using destro staff.

I don't think destro staff synergizes well with templar because the damage is such a mix between AoE (Sweeps) & single target (Unstable Core, Purifying Light, Destructive Reach/Clench, Vampire's Bane), meaning you can't feasibly get the full benefit from Ancient Knowledge passive.

I just feel DW/S&B is the way to go for the classic Sweeps magplar (rev bash can act as a decent CC)- I'd definitely use destro on a Flare build tho.