Subterranean Assault Overperforming

Feanor

zParallaxz wrote: »

Lol how is this thread still alive. People ain’t even complaining about the new sorc combo of curse, endless fury, meteor, rune prision, and frag combo. But nah you guys are right, this combo of a non class based ult combined with a skill that hits between 3-7k on a normal resis person is insanely overwhelming.

I’m running Rune Prison and the only thing strong about it is that the animation is so wonky both for the caster and for the target. People regularly need two seconds to break free, only good players break free immediately. So yes, it’s a considerable buff for Sorc when it comes to killing bad players. But that is the only thing Sorc doesn’t struggle with and that still keeps up the image that the class is OP because everyone sees endless fury as killing blow. I can kill plenty of players on EU Sotha Sil still - but if run into someone like @Cinbri or Heresya I should just LoS and Streak away because it’s a fight I can’t win (regardless of me being the way worse player).

zParallaxz

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

It hits harder than my db

You got more problems than a warden bud, rethink your build.

NinchiTV

Its a P2W class, doubt we'll see appropriate nerf to it.

Thogard

zParallaxz wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

It hits harder than my db

You got more problems than a warden bud, rethink your build.

I don’t think you’re understanding what he’s saying.

For the same character with the same stats and buffs, a sub assault will hit harder than the burst portion of a DB because sub has a higher dmg modifier.

Even hits harder if the sub hits first.

Brutusmax1mus

Thogard wrote: »

zParallaxz wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

It hits harder than my db

You got more problems than a warden bud, rethink your build.

I don’t think you’re understanding what he’s saying.

For the same character with the same stats and buffs, a sub assault will hit harder than the burst portion of a DB because sub has a higher dmg modifier.

Even hits harder if the sub hits first.

Exactly.

Metemsycosis

I can't believe it's this ability people complain about, rather than the fact warden's survivability/ult gen/speed is a much greater issue. Also it is the animation canceled dbos + execute that makes the combo hard to disrupt.

There are so many combos like this in the game tho ...

Not that my experience is total or anything but I experimented with something as simple as offensive set with divines vs defensive set with impenetrable traits. Pretty clear difference in damage taken. Just saying that while sa might be over performing it can be defended against.

Thogard

Metemsycosis wrote: »

I can't believe it's this ability people complain about, rather than the fact warden's survivability/ult gen/speed is a much greater issue. Also it is the animation canceled dbos + execute that makes the combo hard to disrupt.

There are so many combos like this in the game tho ...

Not that my experience is total or anything but I experimented with something as simple as offensive set with divines vs defensive set with impenetrable traits. Pretty clear difference in damage taken. Just saying that while sa might be over performing it can be defended against.

The warden heal/ regen kit consists of 4-5 skills (and tree ult)

It’s damage kit consists of just one - sub assault.

We have to balance the two. Easier to focus on the one skill than trying to modify five.

Waffennacht

zParallaxz wrote: »

Lol how is this thread still alive. People ain’t even complaining about the new sorc combo of curse, endless fury, meteor, rune prision, and frag combo. But nah you guys are right, this combo of a non class based ult combined with a skill that hits between 3-7k on a normal resis person is insanely overwhelming.

Dude, that takes 4 GCDs, that's nub

Real pros use 2 GCDs to kill

SodanTok

Thogard wrote: »

zParallaxz wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

It hits harder than my db

You got more problems than a warden bud, rethink your build.

I don’t think you’re understanding what he’s saying.

For the same character with the same stats and buffs, a sub assault will hit harder than the burst portion of a DB because sub has a higher dmg modifier.

Even hits harder if the sub hits first.

That is BS. Burst hit of dawnbreaker already does more damage alone than sub assault. Even more to vampire/werewolf. And there is DoT on top of it.

The only way to deal more damage with sub than with dbos is to use dbos before sub assault applies major fracture. WHich would generally outperform the 8% more damage dbos does than sub assault (to human characters)

Jjitsuboy98

Thogard wrote: »

zParallaxz wrote: »

Lol how is this thread still alive. People ain’t even complaining about the new sorc combo of curse, endless fury, meteor, rune prision, and frag combo. But nah you guys are right, this combo of a non class based ult combined with a skill that hits between 3-7k on a normal resis person is insanely overwhelming.

Not overwhelming. But it is overperforming.

More so on PC than console. I know you console guys have trouble aiming your beetles with the joysticks and the lag and whatnot

That's why I run stampede. Makes it easier with the snare .

Durham

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Let’s all be honest here. Any class can do this type of burst setup. An Stamblade can cloak, HA, SA, IC, KB with animation canceling and kill someone in a second and a half. A mage blade will hit with a 13k assassins will and impale. A DK will whip or wrecking blow, leap, executioner, all canceled animation and dead in a second and a half or less. Templar spams Jabs until dawn breaker is up, use it, then radiant. A sorc will have curse on you, mages fury, and procced frags, and as you hit low HP mages fury’s second effect occurs to execute.

Literally all the above combos can kill someone in 1.5 seconds. But let me rephrase that...any of the above combos will kill a MEDIUM armor wearer in 1.5 seconds. There’s the issue.

All these heavy armor super tank builds that are running around these days can have damn near all the above happen at the same time and if someone wasn’t clever enough to CC them they block through it and laugh (slightly exaggerating here lol). You wear medium? You’re in a world of hurt. Now don’t get me wrong. I wear medium and do more than fine. But I have to work twice as hard to survive and no matter what, when a persons timing is just right they can melt me or anyone else wearing medium in a second because there is no counter play as the majority of the above combos have at least one or two huge damage attacks that are undodgable. Personally, I hold block and usually survive. But like I said, there are plenty of times where everything is going fine and above 90% HP then suddenly dead and it’s like “wtf just happened” and it all took place in one second, even faster than the break free animation trying to get away and heal.

People over exaggerate saying taking away major evasion from people in 5 heavy will some how be a huge nerf to these super tanks but that’s a load of crap. It will slightly help and maybe force some people to choose between forward momentum and rally if they want to remove snares, but overall these people are already so spec’d into block cost reduction they don’t need to evade anything.

Call me salty all you want, but heavy out performs medium. Light out performs medium. Keeping shuffle to just medium armor is not a buff to medium armor. If anything, wearing 5 or more medium dodge roll fatigue should be reduced by 50% and if you receive AoE damage while dodging the damage is reduced by 50%. NB no longer gets the 30% stamina recovery bonus and cost for everything has been increased in general so the ancient infinite dodge rollers would never be as bad as they were in the past. Honestly, shuffles snare immunity to give a flat 6 seconds of snare removal if 5 or more medium is worn. It’s expensive as it is so don’t think people will just spam it endlessly.

That’s my 2 cents.

I dont feel that heavy over performs medium at this point .... If it did not give me a magicka tic every 4 to 5 secs of 500 I would drop it very quickly... But I also run Brass Medium which out perform all my heavy armor setups in most situations...

Brass/ Bloodspawn Medium basically puts me at 30k Resists with major evade that is 47% mitigation + 15% evade mitigation which is actually more then 15% because of the way it works....

Seventh/Bloodspawn combo is around 27K Resists that around 44% mitigation straight up ... after that you stand there and take the punishment ... This is not out performing BRASS in Medium

Yes I get 500 to 600 stam back every 4 secs ... however Vigor cost almost 4k that 400stam less in medium... when you add up all the cost reduction it comes out ahead... Roll dodge reduction, Sprint reduction and speed.... Also increased regeneration that on my build is about 150 ... that about 300 every 4 secs .... Last night I ran heavy so I can get magicka back but when I run Brass Im just as tanky honestly and Im more versitile ... Tonight I might run Medium

If I was a straight up block bot then yes I would run Heavy with block reduction .... However I like to kill people and to kill a good person in heavy with a slow two hander you need some weapon damage on demand .... Whit my Brass set up Im right at 4.1 k WD with the resource bonus on the front end of my attack... Seventh is 3.7 to 3.8 range but has the oportunity to go higher ... I run 4 sets in PVP and one of them is medium ...

If seventh or heavy outdamages medium then you would see PVP'er flocking to the Seventh setup... You dont because it doesnt outperform medium

CatchMeTrolling

Durham wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Let’s all be honest here. Any class can do this type of burst setup. An Stamblade can cloak, HA, SA, IC, KB with animation canceling and kill someone in a second and a half. A mage blade will hit with a 13k assassins will and impale. A DK will whip or wrecking blow, leap, executioner, all canceled animation and dead in a second and a half or less. Templar spams Jabs until dawn breaker is up, use it, then radiant. A sorc will have curse on you, mages fury, and procced frags, and as you hit low HP mages fury’s second effect occurs to execute.

Literally all the above combos can kill someone in 1.5 seconds. But let me rephrase that...any of the above combos will kill a MEDIUM armor wearer in 1.5 seconds. There’s the issue.

All these heavy armor super tank builds that are running around these days can have damn near all the above happen at the same time and if someone wasn’t clever enough to CC them they block through it and laugh (slightly exaggerating here lol). You wear medium? You’re in a world of hurt. Now don’t get me wrong. I wear medium and do more than fine. But I have to work twice as hard to survive and no matter what, when a persons timing is just right they can melt me or anyone else wearing medium in a second because there is no counter play as the majority of the above combos have at least one or two huge damage attacks that are undodgable. Personally, I hold block and usually survive. But like I said, there are plenty of times where everything is going fine and above 90% HP then suddenly dead and it’s like “wtf just happened” and it all took place in one second, even faster than the break free animation trying to get away and heal.

People over exaggerate saying taking away major evasion from people in 5 heavy will some how be a huge nerf to these super tanks but that’s a load of crap. It will slightly help and maybe force some people to choose between forward momentum and rally if they want to remove snares, but overall these people are already so spec’d into block cost reduction they don’t need to evade anything.

Call me salty all you want, but heavy out performs medium. Light out performs medium. Keeping shuffle to just medium armor is not a buff to medium armor. If anything, wearing 5 or more medium dodge roll fatigue should be reduced by 50% and if you receive AoE damage while dodging the damage is reduced by 50%. NB no longer gets the 30% stamina recovery bonus and cost for everything has been increased in general so the ancient infinite dodge rollers would never be as bad as they were in the past. Honestly, shuffles snare immunity to give a flat 6 seconds of snare removal if 5 or more medium is worn. It’s expensive as it is so don’t think people will just spam it endlessly.

That’s my 2 cents.

I dont feel that heavy over performs medium at this point .... If it did not give me a magicka tic every 4 to 5 secs of 500 I would drop it very quickly... But I also run Brass Medium which out perform all my heavy armor setups in most situations...

Brass/ Bloodspawn Medium basically puts me at 30k Resists with major evade that is 47% mitigation + 15% evade mitigation which is actually more then 15% because of the way it works....

Seventh/Bloodspawn combo is around 27K Resists that around 44% mitigation straight up ... after that you stand there and take the punishment ... This is not out performing BRASS in Medium

Yes I get 500 to 600 stam back every 4 secs ... however Vigor cost almost 4k that 400stam less in medium... when you add up all the cost reduction it comes out ahead... Roll dodge reduction, Sprint reduction and speed.... Also increased regeneration that on my build is about 150 ... that about 300 every 4 secs .... Last night I ran heavy so I can get magicka back but when I run Brass Im just as tanky honestly and Im more versitile ... Tonight I might run Medium

If I was a straight up block bot then yes I would run Heavy with block reduction .... However I like to kill people and to kill a good person in heavy with a slow two hander you need some weapon damage on demand .... Whit my Brass set up Im right at 4.1 k WD with the resource bonus on the front end of my attack... Seventh is 3.7 to 3.8 range but has the oportunity to go higher ... I run 4 sets in PVP and one of them is medium ...

If seventh or heavy outdamages medium then you would see PVP'er flocking to the Seventh setup... You dont because it doesnt outperform medium

I just want to add that you can easily get over 4k weapon damage in heavy without the need for tanky sets. And the reduction you get from medium is more valuable from a medium viewpoint. The reason I say that is because the sustain in heavy can be godly since you should be heavy attacking in your normal rotation and dodge roll reduction is nice but not necessary, the extra tankiness minimize how much you actually need to dodge roll.

As someone who played magicka for like 3 yrs, without the same experience as others playing stam, I can say the sustain is ridiculous in heavy.

Domander

If anything out of that combo needs a nerf it's DBOS,

Ragnarock41

Domander wrote: »

If anything out of that combo needs a nerf it's DBOS,

and how does that solve the problem that stamdens have the best burst in the game while also having best mobility and tankyness and healing...

Domander

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

If anything out of that combo needs a nerf it's DBOS,

and how does that solve the problem that stamdens have the best burst in the game while also having best mobility and tankyness and healing...

First, I dont think that is the problem.

Second, I didn't say it would, but the statement holds true.

Ragnarock41

Domander wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

If anything out of that combo needs a nerf it's DBOS,

and how does that solve the problem that stamdens have the best burst in the game while also having best mobility and tankyness and healing...

First, I dont think that is the problem.

Second, I didn't say it would, but the statement holds true.

when sub assault hits just as hard as dawnbreaker initial hit, I think its obvious which one deserves a nerf.

And when a class is MASTER of all trades, it calls for a big nerf hammer.

[Edit to remove flaming]

Lexxypwns

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

zParallaxz wrote: »

Lol how is this thread still alive. People ain’t even complaining about the new sorc combo of curse, endless fury, meteor, rune prision, and frag combo. But nah you guys are right, this combo of a non class based ult combined with a skill that hits between 3-7k on a normal resis person is insanely overwhelming.

Not overwhelming. But it is overperforming.

More so on PC than console. I know you console guys have trouble aiming your beetles with the joysticks and the lag and whatnot

That's why I run stampede. Makes it easier with the snare .

Eh, crit rush+escapist poison is better than stampede imo. The extra damage is really really noticeable

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

If anything out of that combo needs a nerf it's DBOS,

and how does that solve the problem that stamdens have the best burst in the game while also having best mobility and tankyness and healing...

Magden burst >>> Stamden

At least on usable builds

SirDopey

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

If anything out of that combo needs a nerf it's DBOS,

and how does that solve the problem that stamdens have the best burst in the game while also having best mobility and tankyness and healing...

First, I dont think that is the problem.

Second, I didn't say it would, but the statement holds true.

when sub assault hits just as hard as dawnbreaker initial hit, I think its obvious which one deserves a nerf.

And when a class is MASTER of all trades, it calls for a big nerf hammer.

I don't see a single warden running around as DPS in end game PVE? They're all healers with the occasional tank. I don't believe that makes them anything close to being a master of all trades.

To add to that, DK's still outperform them as tanks and templars as healers in PVP (yes, warden can do both very good, but they are not the best for those roles)

[Edit to remove flaming]

Ragnarock41

SirDopey wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

If anything out of that combo needs a nerf it's DBOS,

and how does that solve the problem that stamdens have the best burst in the game while also having best mobility and tankyness and healing...

First, I dont think that is the problem.

Second, I didn't say it would, but the statement holds true.

when sub assault hits just as hard as dawnbreaker initial hit, I think its obvious which one deserves a nerf.

And when a class is MASTER of all trades, it calls for a big nerf hammer.

I don't see a single warden running around as DPS in end game PVE? They're all healers with the occasional tank. I don't believe that makes them anything close to being a master of all trades.

To add to that, DK's still outperform them as tanks and templars as healers in PVP (yes, warden can do both very good, but they are not the best for those roles)

IS this a pve post? I love how you're taking the discussion towards pve wardens because deep inside you know your original reasoning is wrong in the first place.

Edit:

I merged two posts into one because my editing skills suck and so does my cheap phone. this is the whole thing.

Thogard

Please don’t get my beautiful thread closed by arguing in it.

TimeDazzler

How to counter sub. assault:

-Dodge roll right before
-Cloak if nightblade
-Stun user and walk left or right

L2P

Lexxypwns

Cries wrote: »

How to counter sub. assault:

-Dodge roll right before
-Cloak if nightblade
-Stun user and walk left or right

L2P

If you dodge roll you still eat the damage and CC(from Fissure or DBoS)

Thogard

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

How to counter sub. assault:

-Dodge roll right before
-Cloak if nightblade
-Stun user and walk left or right

L2P

If you dodge roll you still eat the damage and CC(from Fissure or DBoS)

He didn’t read the initial post. None of his ideas would work - all of them would get him one rounded since none of them involve blocking

TimeDazzler

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

How to counter sub. assault:

-Dodge roll right before
-Cloak if nightblade
-Stun user and walk left or right

L2P

If you dodge roll you still eat the damage and CC(from Fissure or DBoS)

Not if you are close enough and dodge at the right time. You would be suprised how many stam wardens in particular you can fool by dodge rolling toward them and landing behind them. They all ways wiff the DbS and every once in a while you may get hit by sub assault when behind but one vigor or heal later and you're good.

TimeDazzler

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

How to counter sub. assault:

-Dodge roll right before
-Cloak if nightblade
-Stun user and walk left or right

L2P

If you dodge roll you still eat the damage and CC(from Fissure or DBoS)

He didn’t read the initial post. None of his ideas would work - all of them would get him one rounded since none of them involve blocking

Are you a moron? Sub assault cannot be blocked, that is one of the worst things to do vs sub assault and DbS combo.

Ragnarock41

Cries wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

How to counter sub. assault:

-Dodge roll right before
-Cloak if nightblade
-Stun user and walk left or right

L2P

If you dodge roll you still eat the damage and CC(from Fissure or DBoS)

He didn’t read the initial post. None of his ideas would work - all of them would get him one rounded since none of them involve blocking

Are you a moron? Sub assault cannot be blocked, that is one of the worst things to do vs sub assault and DbS combo.

sub assault is unblockable, but the rest of the combo is blockable, and sub assault alone won't kill you , so blocking is a solid strategy, unless you're glass cannon.

Thogard

Cries wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

How to counter sub. assault:

-Dodge roll right before
-Cloak if nightblade
-Stun user and walk left or right

L2P

If you dodge roll you still eat the damage and CC(from Fissure or DBoS)

He didn’t read the initial post. None of his ideas would work - all of them would get him one rounded since none of them involve blocking

Are you a moron? Sub assault cannot be blocked, that is one of the worst things to do vs sub assault and DbS combo.

Console gamer detected!

On PC we have this thing called a mouse that actually lets us aim our abilities.

Anything other than a block and you’ll eat the DBoS, get stunned, eat shalks and eat the reverse slice follow up.

You shouldn’t comment on balance threads when you don’t compete at a higher level.

TimeDazzler

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

How to counter sub. assault:

-Dodge roll right before
-Cloak if nightblade
-Stun user and walk left or right

L2P

If you dodge roll you still eat the damage and CC(from Fissure or DBoS)

He didn’t read the initial post. None of his ideas would work - all of them would get him one rounded since none of them involve blocking

Are you a moron? Sub assault cannot be blocked, that is one of the worst things to do vs sub assault and DbS combo.

sub assault is unblockable, but the rest of the combo is blockable, and sub assault alone won't kill you , so blocking is a solid strategy, unless you're glass cannon.

On my stam warden if you are less than 30k health with any armor type you're dead if you block my sub assault+DB. I will time it when 1 you dont have CC immunity and my ult is up, and 2 both my dots are already on you (poison inj + rending). Then I can just spam light attack weave and execute and you're dead. Vs nightblades I make sure I have my pot also available so I can pull you out of stealth and spam light attack + execute. I do have a very unique build though most stam wardens dont have a snare and thus you can get out of their execute phase. Plus im only gonna use that combo if you're less than 30-35k to begin with, if you're 40K+ im just gonna bird of prey and shuffle right past you lol.

Ragnarock41

Cries wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

How to counter sub. assault:

-Dodge roll right before
-Cloak if nightblade
-Stun user and walk left or right

L2P

If you dodge roll you still eat the damage and CC(from Fissure or DBoS)

He didn’t read the initial post. None of his ideas would work - all of them would get him one rounded since none of them involve blocking

Are you a moron? Sub assault cannot be blocked, that is one of the worst things to do vs sub assault and DbS combo.

sub assault is unblockable, but the rest of the combo is blockable, and sub assault alone won't kill you , so blocking is a solid strategy, unless you're glass cannon.

On my stam warden if you are less than 30k health with any armor type you're dead if you block my sub assault+DB. I will time it when 1 you dont have CC immunity and my ult is up, and 2 both my dots are already on you (poison inj + rending). Then I can just spam light attack weave and execute and you're dead. Vs nightblades I make sure I have my pot also available so I can pull you out of stealth and spam light attack + execute. I do have a very unique build though most stam wardens dont have a snare and thus you can get out of their execute phase. Plus im only gonna use that combo if you're less than 30-35k to begin with, if you're 40K+ im just gonna bird of prey and shuffle right past you lol.

and since when warden has an unblockable CC? Sorry but I killed enough bad stamdens , and died to enough good ones to know that block is the only thing that works. Stop giving out false information.

You console players might be bad at aiming but on PC sub assault is braindead easy to aim, with a huge range too.

Also a target with 35k hp is probably not even a thread to begin with.

Lexxypwns

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

How to counter sub. assault:

-Dodge roll right before
-Cloak if nightblade
-Stun user and walk left or right

L2P

If you dodge roll you still eat the damage and CC(from Fissure or DBoS)

He didn’t read the initial post. None of his ideas would work - all of them would get him one rounded since none of them involve blocking

Nah, he’s a stam DK main so you might have to run the rotation twice

Cries wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

How to counter sub. assault:

-Dodge roll right before
-Cloak if nightblade
-Stun user and walk left or right

L2P

If you dodge roll you still eat the damage and CC(from Fissure or DBoS)

Not if you are close enough and dodge at the right time. You would be suprised how many stam wardens in particular you can fool by dodge rolling toward them and landing behind them. They all ways wiff the DbS and every once in a while you may get hit by sub assault when behind but one vigor or heal later and you're good.

Oh, standing toe to toe the sub combo isn’t nearly as scary as the mag warden combo unless the stamden somehow has room for trap . It’s Sub combined with LoS so you can’t see it coming then paired with a gap closer that creates an imbalanced synergy between skills where you can create a situation where the only viable counter is to block and eat 10K+ damage anyway