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Impact of mage champion point rebalances

Asayre
Asayre
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As is well known, the PTS has introduced significant changes to the mage champion point system notably
  • Capped impact of increasing CP on maximum stat at 20% (On Live, maximum increase is 19.88)
  • Spell Erosion no longer has any impact (it is assumed that this will work correctly soon) (Fixed according to PTS v3.0.2)
  • Introduction of Master-at-Arms
  • Front loading of passives
  • Damage done and Champion Point bonus are now additive instead of multiplicative. This implies that stacking Damage Done is less effective now but stacking Damage Taken (on the enemy) is more effective.
  • Flooring of all bonuses to the nearest integer
These changes, when considered in isolation, suggest a 3.7% increase in average damage done at the CP cap (630) and a substantial reduction in the difference between players who optimise their champion point distribution and those who do not. Damage gain as a function of number of champion points remains practically linear. The developers stated that the goal of these changes was to “improve the balance and diversity of Champion Point picks while also raising the power floor so that those with Champion Points will be more effective”. The former goal appears to be achieved as a more even spread is more effective on the PTS than on Live. However, the latter goal does not appear to be fulfilled.

These conclusions were made by considering three champion point distribution schemes based on the Live and PTS game mechanics. These champion point distributions are
  • Optimised
    On Live, the following equation is optimised via gradient descent
    6742bacaf5215aedb52660c11144a13e.png
    On PTS, the following equation is optimised via genetic algorithm
    ea62ac74ff58db229f956ad2012e3b90.png
    where
    1b6e95ecec3a2317f05d75aef1f29599.png
    where
    DD = Direct Damage ratio
    DoT = Damage over Time ratio
    DDDoT = Ratio of skills that are both Direct Damage and Damage over Time
    S = Staff ratio
    EE = Elemental Expert
    MaA = Master-at-Arms
    T = Thaumathurge
    SE = Staff Expert
    Done = Damage Done
  • Even
    Champion points are evenly distributed across Elemental Expert, Elfborn, Spell Erosion, Staff Expert, Thaumathurge and Master-at-Arms.
  • Irrelevant
    Champion points are placed in stars that have no effect on damage but still placed to increase maximum magicka

The figure below demonstrates the performance of these three champion point distribution with Live mechanics. A player with 180 champion points who reaches the 630 champion points can expect a DPS gain of 4% due to gain in maximum magicka. Players who optimise their champion point distribution (from an even distribution) can expect a DPS increase of about 13%. However, players going from 180 CP to 630 CP can expect a DPS increase of 27% with an optimised champion point distribution or 20% with an even champion point distribution. Both the optimised and even champion point spread show a very linear relationship between number of champion points and ability metric.

b669612edc59b885a62e87c367bd6408.png

Since the maximum magicka multiplier due to CP is capped at 20% on the PTS, a CP180 player going to CP630 will notice a DPS gain of 1.26% from the increase to their maximum magicka. The increased front loading in the champion point system causes an even champion point spread strategy to be substantially better than on Live thus optimisation is not as important. An optimised champion point distribution will yield a 4% DPS increased when compared to an even spread strategy. Contrary, to the developers claim, both the optimised and even champion point spread have a strong linear relationship. It is noted that the coefficient for the optimised distribution is practically identical which leads me to conclude that the power gap between high and low champion point players remain comparable. The flooring of all bonuses to the nearest integer has caused jump points in the ability metric for the even spread strategy.

7c33259020fb42806c82f9243f444f75.png

Edit:

Jump points apply to most percentage based stars except for those that apply a cost reduction. List of current jump points
7c86a11903b3c9df1d9b3526c58b2bff.png

CP optimisation links
http://solinur.de/AsayreCP/CPOptimisation.html
https://woeler.eu/cp/

Partial list of which skills are classified as what
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18LptRy_AfGVehOyIioJJ6PQD98HB0lCOO_GWOcs7Tr4/edit
Edited by Asayre on June 16, 2017 6:44AM
Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • ArtOfShred
    ArtOfShred
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    Appreciate you spending the time to do the backing math on this.

    I was concerned right away that the large performance disparity between lower and higher CP would remain about the same. I have a feeling they basically countered themselves when they added an additional node that increases/decreases all direct damage. Despite the diminishing returns theres too many effective nodes to spread your damage around.
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    Quick question concerning the comparison of the different CP scaling on live vs. PTS:

    How does the DPS increase by CP on live compare to the DPS increase on the PTS?

    The more front loaded CP should give a lot more value out of the spend CP, on the other hand they nerfed some major DPS sources like elemental expert and mighty.
    Making the CP dmg boni additive with other sources of dmg increase is a significant nerf.
    Animals Unchained | PC EU
    Homestead Theorycrafting
    Math of RNG
  • PS4_ZeColmeia
    PS4_ZeColmeia
    ✭✭✭✭
    All hail @Asayre

    Good to see ya friend! Thanks as always for your community support.
    PSN: Blackie___Chan (3 _s)
    Hybrid, All-Role NB
  • Nolic1
    Nolic1
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    So not to say this is not good work but the fact its really broken down and I have not used calculus in a long while. But this is with what kind of optimized cp spread and what quality of weapon legendary?

    Again not to look down on but after reviewing this more it seems the dev's want to make the CP attribute cap at CP 300 an easier goal them it is now so players at CP 300 and CP 600 are not as far apart as before. And that makes sense the other changes with the Direct Damage and having to put into ether Physical Weapons or Staff expert depending on your DPS is whats going to separate the gap in DPS cause of more point distribution making lower CP players not as well off in DPS as max CP. This is what will make getting to CP cap a mush more rewarding thing when you think about it.

    But no matter like the work great math by the way and did you test these factors on both live and PTS?
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    @Asayre

    Gear traits have not been touched. I guess the disparity between running divines/sharpened and lesser traits makes even more of an impact henceforth than anything else. Thanks for your great posts.
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 36 - Stormproof
    Maeglin the Dark Elf - DC Dunmer mDK (relegated to crafting duty)
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK (tanking project)
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade (lvl 28)
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK (l2DK PvP project)
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden (lvl 11)

    CP 800+. Playing PvP mostly on EU PC Sotha Sil with a wonderful guild of friends and PvE with 2 awesome German guilds
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
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    @Asayre Can you use some example numbers for the optimal distribution equation?

    And will you be updating your online calculator?
    Edited by dpencil1 on May 2, 2017 2:54PM
  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    @dpencil1 It's a bit hard to give example numbers because there were so many optimisations. But here is an example output for a particular testing scenario (not related to this post)
    f00f0d8149b565511eab7167ec2829ab.png

    I am the process of thinking about what to do with the online calculator. The online CP calculator was my first web project and to be honest it's really bad. It's not striking and it doesn't work on small screen sizes. So I'm thinking if it's better for someone else to do it instead.

    @Nolic1, this was done with legendary sharpened and the optimised CP distribution was varied for each case and was solved using the fitness function provided. What I'm saying is the gap between players of equal CP with an optimised CP distribution and those without (even CP spread) will be smaller but the power gap between low (180 CP) and high (630 CP) players will remain roughly the same (or a bit larger) than on Live. The results are based on knowledge of mechanics on both Live and PTS.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
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    @Asayre Thanks for the reply. I wonder, if you're not going to update the website calculator if you'd make your calc program you used available for download. Really though, I was asking if you could do an example with concrete numbers using the formulas in the OP. I would like to do the math as well, but it's tough for me without seeing an example of the formula in action. For example, I'm not really sure what the "damage done" portion is, or at what point in the formula I would be able to determine how many points belong in a particular star. Also, if there are jump points to consider, whether that is taken into account or how to correct for that.
  • smhzdmr
    smhzdmr
    Soul Shriven
    @Asayre

    Hey dude,

    Have a nice day and thanks for this awesome work of yours im waiting for more *hyped*

    I need to ask you this. What is that ''Done'' Buff.

    Do we get it from CP or like combat prayer exct.
  • Masel92
    Masel92
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    Double phone post.
    Edited by Masel92 on May 12, 2017 5:54PM
    PC EU - CP 700+

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD and Hobbytank - Flawless Conqueror -
    Grenvil Justi - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - Tank & DD - Boethiah's Scythe
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
  • Masel92
    Masel92
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    A thing I experimented with a lot is the spell erosion/piercing stars. I have been using non sharpened weapons with spinner on live for alt chars because I didn't want to move gear all the time and it was very close to the old BiS setups. Now with 50 Points in one of the Penetration cps you get 5160*0.75=3860. This is very close to spinner and in raids with all Buffs applied you get to 19128 Spell Penetration without using any sharpened weapons, which is still 928 too much. So the question is: does this frontloaded cp star allow for non-sharpened weapons to be viable?

    In raids you will still most likely invest to unlock the exploiter passive, so 75 points in thaumaturge. Leaves 135 points: 50 in spell erosion, 25 in Elfborn, 50 in elemental expert, 10 in staff expert? Or take out a few from elemental expert and 0 in staff expert and put them in master at arms?

    On magblades with higher critical rating it might be better to put more into elfborn and take them out of ele expert or Master at arms.

    For stamina builds this could enable to use a lot more builds. So with sharpened weapons you can put into piercing and drop twice-fanged serpent or use twice-fanged serpent and use non-sharpened weapons without losing too much damage.

    Any thoughts on this?
    Edited by Masel92 on May 12, 2017 5:54PM
    PC EU - CP 700+

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD and Hobbytank - Flawless Conqueror -
    Grenvil Justi - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - Tank & DD - Boethiah's Scythe
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    @dpencil

    I've made a webpage for it but there are a few improvements I still want to do. With regards to a concrete example, perhaps this spreadsheet by @decay might explain it better? If not, let me know and I'll see if I can explain it better. Damage Done is stuff in game that says something along the lines of increases your damage done such as Minor Berserk (from Combat Prayer) or racial passives (High Elf > Elemental Talent). It is not to be confused for Damage Taken like the nearest enemy of Puncturing Sweeps taking 140% extra damage or the health scaling of Radiant Oppression. It's a rather troublesome variable to work out properly and I don't have any ideas on how to get a good estimate of it.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
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    @Asayre
    Thanks! That's exactly what I needed. Looks like my optimal build is gonna be 50 Ele Expert, 35 Elfborn, 35 Erosion, 15 MaA, 75 Thau.

    It would be interesting to be able to see at what point the Exploiter passive no longer becomes worth putting 75 points into Thau.
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    Sooooo do Elfborn and Precise Strikes still suffer from Jump Points?
    GT:lI Izaki Il #XboxEU
    @: Izaki # PCEU
    #CP800+
    #LaMatrice
    #MoreDPSthanYou
    #StaminaNightblade #AllOtherStaminaClasses #AFewOthers
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
    I think they need to add front-loading of power to stats and resources, too. Like 4000 spell damage should not have 100% more impact on your abilities as 2000 spell damage. And having 45,000 magicka should not have 50% more impact on your abilities than having 30,000 magicka. And so on for a whole bunch of stats. That would go a lot further to "Lower the Ceiling/Raise the Floor" than blanket nerfs to sustain and skills and sets, which tend to hurt average player a lot more than the elite/optimized/min-max players.

    It is the linearity of power in so many aspects of this game that makes min/max builds so much better than average builds. I don't want a return to soft caps. I have been here since PC early access. The soft caps made you hit a pretty stiff wall and while they did lead to people spreading out stats, most everyone just spread out stats in same way. Nowadays everyone puts all attribute points in magicka. In soft cap days, everyone put all attribute points into health. There were lots of problems with the pre-CP system. People are looking back at it with rose-colored glasses. Or they played the sticks-and-skirts magicka DK meta that dominated in the early days and miss being totally OP.

    It was like soft caps sent you off a cliff after a certain point. Current design is nearly linear ascent. Some happy medium, with more smoothly diminishing returns in all aspects of player power, CP and stats, would be more effective balance than the constant (and largely ineffective) blanket nerfs to everything to combat this highly linear power trajectory.

    i agree. this combined with the sustains coming up, would also do a lot for rejuvenating hybrid builds.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The way I used to get kills was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

    Things I Wish Were Different or Added for Housing, Sorcerer, Equipment Crafting and Trait Balance.
    My Housing Wish List (Functionals)
    Mannequin/Armor-Rack that "stores" a full gear set plus 8 stacks of quickslots for instant swap. Does not need to provide additional storage.
    Storage Containers that help segregate our storage by adding customizad tabs to our inventory lists. Does not need to provide extra storage.
    Mailboxes/Couriers tied to guilds that handle back-n-forth for dailies including writs.
    Gardens, Ore Veins, Trees, Springs etc that serve as the housing based nodes similar to hirelings - providing a daily harvest.
    Minions - "Hired" singers, cooks stableboys etc that liven up the place and may also have some function - "cook or brewer could be a "daily node." Stableboy could be a free daily riding lesson.
    Stairs that work - spiral, cornering and straight. ramps from orcish platforms and planks and bars are Ok but...
    Ledger that allows you to "log" your inventory items character by character with a quick-click and that then you can review with sort tools or output to a file the inventory items listed by character.
    Guest Book: Auto-logs visitors in and out.

    My Sorcerer Wish List
    What I would look forward to on my sorcerer moving past Update 14
    1. TOGGLES-PERSISTANCE REPLACED WITH OVERTIME: Change the Persistence passive to give toggles a brief "overtime" of say 3s/6s where if you swap off the toggle bar the toggle can continue for that overtime without cancel. if you swap back before overtime expires, the toggle continues. This would allow a "risky" setup where your pets and such are only on the attack bar but you can swap-rebuff quickly and come back without losing the pets and armor - but if you get stunned or delayed you can lose them and have to recast.
    2. PETS: Add minor group buff added to them - different for each morph.
    3. Clean up their healing bugs.
    4. Add a keybind control for pet attack and pet defend instead of the current command pet double key.
    5. COLD DISCOMFORT: Enable "ice mages" with cold vs shock morph changes for Overload, liq lightning, Endless fury, Bound Armor/Aegis and maybe the atronarch as well. Replace crystal blast with icy blast which works like Cfrag but instead of the empower option it applies maim or snare after the hit. Passives should include cold where they include shock/physical.
    6. DAEDRIC PREY: Should be a pet magnet.
    7. DAEDRIC TOMB: Cut down to ONE mine but drastically lower the cost creating a "spammable" quick pop--n-heal (via drak magic) and giving miners a solid tough choice between the spammable and the five mine denial.
    8. EXPLOITATION: Should be like dark magic - triggered by not activation but damaging or affecting enemies - specificallt taking dark deal/conversion off the group buff 20s trigger free.

    My Equip Crafting Improvements Package
    To include some or all of:
    1. Ability to craft all crafted sets as 4pc or 3pc sets by sacrificing one or two of the 2-3-4pc bonuses. (Adds felxibility in builds setting crafted apart from drops, this may be limited to 9 traits capability)
    2. Ability to up-scale pieces to higher level keeping quality. (new drops scale to you)
    3. Ability to craft lower gear with higher mat, losing the lower cap on met levels. (Fits with scaled nodes)
    4. Drop the 10x mats cost for CP160 over Cp150. (CP 160 drops everywhere now... its no longer s special threshold thing anymore. if you are cp160 every drop set is cp 160 not nine 150 and one 160. So the need for cp160 crafting to be 10x is no longer relevant.)
    5. Allow appearance to be selected from the available style, not set by material. if i like they bosmer cotton look, let me do that even for ancestor silk.

    My Circumstantial Traits Suggestion
    Traits for armor and weapons need complete redesign to achieve one goal:
    Make it so that no trait is "best" everywhere and so that every trait is "best" somewhere and it is obvious where those are.
    [/list]
  • Bladerunner1
    Bladerunner1
    ✭✭✭
    Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
    I think they need to add front-loading of power to stats and resources, too. Like 4000 spell damage should not have 100% more impact on your abilities as 2000 spell damage. And having 45,000 magicka should not have 50% more impact on your abilities than having 30,000 magicka.

    Stats like spell and weapon damage are kinda front loaded. Each increment of extra damage stat provides less and less percentage to the total damage. It's more of a flat increase, like gaining 1000 more magic could increase the damage of a skill by 100 whether you have 10,000 magicka or 35,000 magicka.
  • Zarrakon
    Zarrakon
    ✭✭✭
    Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
    I think they need to add front-loading of power to stats and resources, too. Like 4000 spell damage should not have 100% more impact on your abilities as 2000 spell damage. And having 45,000 magicka should not have 50% more impact on your abilities than having 30,000 magicka. And so on for a whole bunch of stats. That would go a lot further to "Lower the Ceiling/Raise the Floor" than blanket nerfs to sustain and skills and sets, which tend to hurt average player a lot more than the elite/optimized/min-max players.

    It is the linearity of power in so many aspects of this game that makes min/max builds so much better than average builds. I don't want a return to soft caps. I have been here since PC early access. The soft caps made you hit a pretty stiff wall and while they did lead to people spreading out stats, most everyone just spread out stats in same way. Nowadays everyone puts all attribute points in magicka. In soft cap days, everyone put all attribute points into health. There were lots of problems with the pre-CP system. People are looking back at it with rose-colored glasses. Or they played the sticks-and-skirts magicka DK meta that dominated in the early days and miss being totally OP.

    It was like soft caps sent you off a cliff after a certain point. Current design is nearly linear ascent. Some happy medium, with more smoothly diminishing returns in all aspects of player power, CP and stats, would be more effective balance than the constant (and largely ineffective) blanket nerfs to everything to combat this highly linear power trajectory.

    Linear scaling with no cap means much more build diversity, and it is not really leading to any problems in the game currently. Removing this would mean much less meaningful choices between damage and tankiness, and damage and sustain (and on Live, these choices are not meaningful as it is).

    You don't make a very clear point in your post; what exactly is your problem with linear scaling? What is happening in the game right now or on the PTS that is a problem caused by this? As far as I can tell, your argument is:

    - 50% more stats should not mean a 50% greater increase in base damage.
    - People who wear 2 sets with +spell damage do proportionately more damage per spell than people who wear 1 set with +spell damage and another set with no relevant bonuses to their damage output.
    - Linear ascent is bad. Old soft caps are bad. Something in between, just not a 'highly linear power trajectory'.

    If you think that sustain nerfs hurt the average player a lot, then it seems like you really just want that to be reverted. If you want everyone to be roughly as powerful as everyone else no matter what they wear (which I think is really what you're going for here), just say so outright.
  • Haroeris
    Haroeris
    ✭✭
    Excellent work as always, @Asayre! Quick question: are you using your staff ratio for both LA/HA (for use with staff expert) as well as destro staff abilities? I'm curious how the spell erosion might optimize using the extra pen from destro passive vs not. Thanks!
  • DargusMaximus
    DargusMaximus
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  • DargusMaximus
    DargusMaximus
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    Asayre wrote: »
    (...)

    @IzakiBrotherSs, now pretty much everything has jump points! It's more fun that way. Here's an example for the 25% stars like Elfborn, Master-at-Arms, Thaumathurge etc. The blue dots are the in-game tooltip values and the orange dots are the actual increase
    5d896675d8adce9ca8f4f2e4ba9eda30.png

    (...)

    @Asayre do defensive CP like Hardy, Elemental Defender, Thick Skinned, Shadow Ward also have jump points? Do literally every CP have jump points now?
  • Haroeris
    Haroeris
    ✭✭
    Ah, ok. Probably minor for most rotations, but wasn't sure with respect to force pulse spammable and blockade.

    That's hilarious about the jump points though -- I had (incorrectly) assumed that having 4 sig figs would fix the problem, not propagate it. Are there jump points for Ele Exp (15%) and Staff Exp (35%) now too?
    Edited by Haroeris on May 15, 2017 4:45PM
  • Asayre
    Asayre
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are jump points for every 15%, 25% and 35% star so yes to Elemental Expert, Staff Expert, Hardy, Elemental Defender, Shadow Ward and Thick Skinned. It seems only the 5280 stars do not have jump points (i.e. Piercing, Spell Erosion etc.)
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
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