I'd like to see Transmogrification of armor styles be tel var based.

Belegnole

Why are you all using a WOW term? I thought this was ESO.

Doctordarkspawn

Rickter wrote: »

/agreed

+1

Bravo!

I fully support the OP and his suggestion. @ZOS_GinaBruno please take a small moment and shoot this over to the relevant decision makers.

Please god dont.

@ZOS_GinaBruno please dont.

Doctordarkspawn

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

@WhiteMage

I'm perfectly happy to discuss IC as a thing and what we can do to fix the apparent relevence problem it has.

Holding Transmog as a ransom for it speaks poorly of the IC community, and IC as a whole. It's threatening to try to hold a feature hostage if you dont get what you want, which is greed. (And I say 'you ' as metaphorical, it's not ment to be pointed at anyone.)

So if you wanna have that conversation by all means, lets have it, in a seperate thread. This is just stupid.

Edited to remove the wrong quote. And I'm too lazy to rewrite it so there you go.

Edit 2: It's also worth noting that this massive push for new features to be held hostage repeatedly is -why- people hate PVP. Most of us are happy to leave people to their own devices. PVPers, never have been. It's allways 'nerf this!' or 'tie this into PVP!' You can only do it for so long before people -hate you-.

Are hakeijos, Akaviri motifs, or xivkyn polymorphs being held for ransom too? Why is being accessed in a PvP zone being "held for ransom?" Are PvPers not allowed to have nice things? We already have so little.

FYI we don't push to absorb new features "repeatedly," or "hold them hostage" as you say. In fact, we're rather used to being ignored and neglected by ZOS. We do call for nerfs constantly because this game's balance sucks and class and itemization imbalance disproportionately affect PvP. No one cares of proc sets are overperforming in vMA. Stam sorcs get high scores (was it SotH patch?), but your gameplay on other classes isn't impeded. When proc sets are op in PvP, you get one shot and literally don't get to play the game. Your comment is insensitive.

@NightbladeMechanics

Considering that the runestones (I wont spell them out) are not obtainable any other way, yes. By definition. Xivkyn Polymorphs and Akaviri motifs, are purely cosmetic and limited in capacity, and are thus the sort of 'bragging rights' thing that PVP can have without too much impact on everything else.

As for 'we dont push', bull. You do push. You do hold them hostage. And even though you push for things to be nerfed, it's more because PVP balance sucks.It's allways going to suck. The environment, AKA, the ammount of variables that need to be accounted for across PVP and PVE, ensure that it'll allways suck unless PVP is given full consideration, and it never, will.

It's funny because even when PVPers dont push for changes, their made anyway! I remember the block-regen nerf. The Wrath changes. I remember the devs just making heavy armor the problem it is for PVP now, ALL WITHOUT EVER BEING ASKED. So dont even -give- me that you dishonest little ***, I'll have none of it.

PVP requires all other forms of play to either be nonexistant or devalued, for it to be balanced. And it allways has been. It cannot be balanced with other game modes. I dont give a good god-damn whether my comment is insensitive. Plus, the irony. Oh the irony. "Muh feelings".

If you're going to use a phrase as steeped in negative connotation as "holding hostage" so frivolously, then I'll point out that PvEers hold waaaaay more of the game's resources and features "hostage." We don't hate you for it, though.

And no PvPers wanted the changes you listed, either. The heavy armor and proc set buffs of Dark Brotherhood patch ruined PvP game balance for a year. You're blaming us and hating us -- a very strong word -- for something we didn't support or ask for. Not fair, and not rational.

I'll also point out that game balance can be had across PvP and PvE simultaneously. If ZOS were to balance player abilities, armor sets, etc etc around PvP first, they could then balance PvE mobs and bosses and other encounters around the players. Sorcs needing to deal a little extra damage to function in PvP, for example? Ok, give the new trial boss a small bonus resistance to shock damage. The thing is that you can't control players -- they'll dig up and exploit the most broken, imbalanced things -- but you can control NPCs. This is the higher level of thinking that needs to occur for simultaneous balance to succeed. It requires more work, though, so although it's entirely possible, it won't likely happen.

You're emotional for some reason that I don't understand, and I'm sorry for that. But I'm trying to have a mature and rational and civil conversation. Please keep the hate to a minimum... The PvPer attitudes and behavior that you're describing are not those of the majority, so please don't generalize.

I'll adress these and leave it at that, as your greed blinds you to damn near everything else.

If the content and resources your yellling about are anything aside from, say, the zones, the quests, the dungeons and the dev time it takes to do them, I cant think of them. You dont have to play them. And when you do, it's generally a easy enough thing to accomplish. And yes, YOU DO HATE US FOR IT. The threads like this. The eternal "I HAVE TO GRIND FOR UNDAUNTED PASSIVES SO SHUT UP NO MATTER WHAT YOUR SAYING". You cant speak for your community and even if you could, you lie. I have seen it. Repeately. Dont *** on my head, and tell me it's colovian ale.

It's also not true no PVPers wanted it. A sizeable portion jumped at the chance. So I -will- hate them for it, and the community that has subsequently cried about it until ZOS took a mallet to HA's kneecaps.

As for PVP and PVE balance, no. It cant. I have seen enough MMO's to know, that unless the two are kept entirely seperate, they cant. Nothing you say is going to have a ghost of a chance challenging experiences from half a dozen MMO's, where this has been the case.

I'm angry, yes. I'm angry for two distinct reasons. That your attempting to repurpose more of the game for your greed, and that in the process you've taken to crusading, attempting to paint the PVP community as better than they are. The fact you are still advocating this, still advocating holding a feature hostage (And I dont care how you try to justify it, it dont make it right man, even when the other guys do it) and still trying to paint the PVP community as have not bashed anyone who ever dared to say something about making a PVE version of Vigor. Or opposing a PVP based change.

@NightbladeMechanics I hate. I will continue to hate. I will continue to hate your selfishness, your communities behavior, and most of all how you have brainwashed yourself into thinking that what your doing is justified. You wanna fix IC? Fine. Fix IC. But dont try to justify stealing from everyone else. I dont care how you do it. You still stole. You dont understand why I'm so emotional? Then your not lisening very hard, now are you?

So enough with the faux peacemaking. Take your olive branch and burn it. Your not sorry, and if you are, I dont want your sympathy. I want for you to shut up and stop trying to steal from the rest of us. There is no rational discussion to be had here. People have explained why this wont work, cant work, you dont wanna hear it. And sound and fury appears to have just bounced off you. So all that's left, is just to let the thread -die-.

Tannus15

@Artis The difference between furniture, furniture crafting and making transmog only available for tel'var is that furniture items are available game wide.

There are furniture vendors in every zone.
Furniture items can be purchased with AP.
There are furniture achievement vendors in every zone.
Furniture patterns drop in every zone. You can get them off mobs. You can get them off pick pocketing. You can get them from stealing.
And now furniture items can be acquired from all those places as well.
Furniture crafting materials drop in every zone.
You get special furniture items for completing dungeons and trials.


NO DLC is required to buy a house or access furniture.

Contrast this to the proposal.
The only place you can acquire transmog items is the imperial city.
It can only be acquired via tel'var stones.
Imperial city cannot be accessed without purchasing a DLC or subscribing.

I think it's pretty clear that your comparison to furniture is kinda BS. I literally don't know how furniture could be integrated more into more areas of the game than it already is.

NightbladeMechanics

@Doctordarkspawn your hypocrisy is numbing.

NightbladeMechanics

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Artis The difference between furniture, furniture crafting and making transmog only available for tel'var is that furniture items are available game wide.

There are furniture vendors in every zone.
Furniture items can be purchased with AP.
There are furniture achievement vendors in every zone.
Furniture patterns drop in every zone. You can get them off mobs. You can get them off pick pocketing. You can get them from stealing.
And now furniture items can be acquired from all those places as well.
Furniture crafting materials drop in every zone.
You get special furniture items for completing dungeons and trials.


NO DLC is required to buy a house or access furniture.

Contrast this to the proposal.
The only place you can acquire transmog items is the imperial city.
It can only be acquired via tel'var stones.
Imperial city cannot be accessed without purchasing a DLC or subscribing.

I think it's pretty clear that your comparison to furniture is kinda BS. I literally don't know how furniture could be integrated more into more areas of the game than it already is.

He means that not everyone crafts, so most people have to buy furniture items from crafters.

Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription, so many people would have to buy transmog items from IC players.

Tannus15

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Artis The difference between furniture, furniture crafting and making transmog only available for tel'var is that furniture items are available game wide.

There are furniture vendors in every zone.
Furniture items can be purchased with AP.
There are furniture achievement vendors in every zone.
Furniture patterns drop in every zone. You can get them off mobs. You can get them off pick pocketing. You can get them from stealing.
And now furniture items can be acquired from all those places as well.
Furniture crafting materials drop in every zone.
You get special furniture items for completing dungeons and trials.


NO DLC is required to buy a house or access furniture.

Contrast this to the proposal.
The only place you can acquire transmog items is the imperial city.
It can only be acquired via tel'var stones.
Imperial city cannot be accessed without purchasing a DLC or subscribing.

I think it's pretty clear that your comparison to furniture is kinda BS. I literally don't know how furniture could be integrated more into more areas of the game than it already is.

He means that not everyone crafts, so most people have to buy furniture items from crafters.

Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription, so many people would have to buy transmog items from IC players.

There are a lot of furniture item options other than crafting. I've spent literally hundreds of thousands of gold buying furniture from NPC vendors.

Demycilian

ZOS? I require my transmogrifications to be gank & cruelty free.

NightbladeMechanics

Royaji wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics , I totally understand why you want transmog to be tied to IC. You enjoy the content and want it to be healthy and rewarding. There is nothing wrong with that. But putting transmog in IC is not a good decision.

You are trying to take a feature that is sought after by the most casual playerbase and put it behind probably the most competitive content in the game. This is not a PvE vs. PvP issue. It's casual vs. competitive. I think high-end PvP and PvE players do not care about transmog. They would rather invest their gold and time into something more useful like gold tempers or shiny new sets to theorycraft with. Forcing casual players to buy transmog items from competitive players is not a good idea. This will cause an outcry and demand will be way higher than offer. Everything will just be too expensive for an average player.

Transmog doesn't belong in high-end PvP or HM trials. Ideally it should be available through something at least semi-casual. Undaunted chests and Rewards for the Worthy are much more suitable sources. Or it can also be tied to non-game systems (and let's be realistic here, this is mostlikely the case) as part of ESO+ or Crown Store.

This is the thread's very first and currently only rational and compelling counterargument against putting transmog in IC. I've been waiting for someone to make this very point. Good stuff!

So now the conversation can continue on from this post, ignoring those inflammatory anti-PvP zealots that went off in earlier pages.

I would argue that if drop rates in IC are high enough, prices can be kept low enough and supply high enough to not give the casual playerbase a heart attack while still providing PvPers some reasonable income. But I'm an optimist. My inner realist doubts ZOS' capability to maintain that balance. If the transmog items had a moderate drop chance from sewer bosses and a guaranteed drop chance from Molag Bal, we might make a decent step in the right direction. Those objectives aren't difficult to take down, but they are limited in number. They are also entirely ignored right new in lieu of district boss farming for tel var.

The TLDR of the previous pages is that casuals want to farm the items themselves and absolutely abhor the idea of purchasing them from others, especially evil PvPers. The evil PvPers raise an eyebrow and ask what's so bad about guild traders.

Doctordarkspawn

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics , I totally understand why you want transmog to be tied to IC. You enjoy the content and want it to be healthy and rewarding. There is nothing wrong with that. But putting transmog in IC is not a good decision.

You are trying to take a feature that is sought after by the most casual playerbase and put it behind probably the most competitive content in the game. This is not a PvE vs. PvP issue. It's casual vs. competitive. I think high-end PvP and PvE players do not care about transmog. They would rather invest their gold and time into something more useful like gold tempers or shiny new sets to theorycraft with. Forcing casual players to buy transmog items from competitive players is not a good idea. This will cause an outcry and demand will be way higher than offer. Everything will just be too expensive for an average player.

Transmog doesn't belong in high-end PvP or HM trials. Ideally it should be available through something at least semi-casual. Undaunted chests and Rewards for the Worthy are much more suitable sources. Or it can also be tied to non-game systems (and let's be realistic here, this is mostlikely the case) as part of ESO+ or Crown Store.

This is the thread's very first and currently only rational and compelling counterargument against putting transmog in IC. I've been waiting for someone to make this very point. Good stuff!

So now the conversation can continue on from this post, ignoring those inflammatory anti-PvP zealots that went off in earlier pages.

I would argue that if drop rates in IC are high enough, prices can be kept low enough and supply high enough to not give the casual playerbase a heart attack while still providing PvPers some reasonable income. But I'm an optimist. My inner realist doubts ZOS' capability to maintain that balance. If the transmog items had a moderate drop chance from sewer bosses and a guaranteed drop chance from Molag Bal, we might make a decent step in the right direction. Those objectives aren't difficult to take down, but they are limited in number. They are also entirely ignored right new in lieu of district boss farming for tel var.

The TLDR of the previous pages is that casuals want to farm the items themselves and absolutely abhor the idea of purchasing them from others, especially evil PvPers. The evil PvPers raise an eyebrow and ask what's so bad about guild traders.

Personal attacks, slander, and misrepresentation. So much for civil discourse. Now who is the hypocrite?

Iccotak

I understand where you're coming from with wanting to make the Imperial city sewers relevant again, but at the same time farming for a Tel Var stones is already a pain in the butt because of the enemy players that kill me while I'm farming

NightbladeMechanics

Tannus15 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Artis The difference between furniture, furniture crafting and making transmog only available for tel'var is that furniture items are available game wide.

There are furniture vendors in every zone.
Furniture items can be purchased with AP.
There are furniture achievement vendors in every zone.
Furniture patterns drop in every zone. You can get them off mobs. You can get them off pick pocketing. You can get them from stealing.
And now furniture items can be acquired from all those places as well.
Furniture crafting materials drop in every zone.
You get special furniture items for completing dungeons and trials.


NO DLC is required to buy a house or access furniture.

Contrast this to the proposal.
The only place you can acquire transmog items is the imperial city.
It can only be acquired via tel'var stones.
Imperial city cannot be accessed without purchasing a DLC or subscribing.

I think it's pretty clear that your comparison to furniture is kinda BS. I literally don't know how furniture could be integrated more into more areas of the game than it already is.

He means that not everyone crafts, so most people have to buy furniture items from crafters.

Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription, so many people would have to buy transmog items from IC players.

There are a lot of furniture item options other than crafting. I've spent literally hundreds of thousands of gold buying furniture from NPC vendors.

That is beside the point. You pay gold for those items just like you pay gold for crafted ones if you are not a crafter yourself.

The analogy was comparing farming transmog items yourself to crafting furniture items yourself, versus having to buy transmog or furniture pieces from vendors (guild traders and regular furniture traders being comparable gold transactions).

Edit: to elaborate, not everyone crafts. Those who do can make their own furniture, but those who don't have to purchase theirs with gold. Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription. Those who do can farm their own transmog items in IC, but those who don't have to purchase theirs with gold. Sorry for the confusion.

NightbladeMechanics

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics , I totally understand why you want transmog to be tied to IC. You enjoy the content and want it to be healthy and rewarding. There is nothing wrong with that. But putting transmog in IC is not a good decision.

You are trying to take a feature that is sought after by the most casual playerbase and put it behind probably the most competitive content in the game. This is not a PvE vs. PvP issue. It's casual vs. competitive. I think high-end PvP and PvE players do not care about transmog. They would rather invest their gold and time into something more useful like gold tempers or shiny new sets to theorycraft with. Forcing casual players to buy transmog items from competitive players is not a good idea. This will cause an outcry and demand will be way higher than offer. Everything will just be too expensive for an average player.

Transmog doesn't belong in high-end PvP or HM trials. Ideally it should be available through something at least semi-casual. Undaunted chests and Rewards for the Worthy are much more suitable sources. Or it can also be tied to non-game systems (and let's be realistic here, this is mostlikely the case) as part of ESO+ or Crown Store.

This is the thread's very first and currently only rational and compelling counterargument against putting transmog in IC. I've been waiting for someone to make this very point. Good stuff!

So now the conversation can continue on from this post, ignoring those inflammatory anti-PvP zealots that went off in earlier pages.

I would argue that if drop rates in IC are high enough, prices can be kept low enough and supply high enough to not give the casual playerbase a heart attack while still providing PvPers some reasonable income. But I'm an optimist. My inner realist doubts ZOS' capability to maintain that balance. If the transmog items had a moderate drop chance from sewer bosses and a guaranteed drop chance from Molag Bal, we might make a decent step in the right direction. Those objectives aren't difficult to take down, but they are limited in number. They are also entirely ignored right new in lieu of district boss farming for tel var.

The TLDR of the previous pages is that casuals want to farm the items themselves and absolutely abhor the idea of purchasing them from others, especially evil PvPers. The evil PvPers raise an eyebrow and ask what's so bad about guild traders.

Personal attacks, slander, and misrepresentation. So much for civil discourse. Now who is the hypocrite?

Still you until you cool off and provide a logical argument like that person did. You literally said you hate PvPers and don't want any content which non-PvPers would desire to be added to PvP zones.

NightbladeMechanics

Iccotak wrote: »

I understand where you're coming from with wanting to make the Imperial city sewers relevant again, but at the same time farming for a Tel Var stones is already a pain in the butt because of the enemy players that kill me while I'm farming

Fight 'em back!

I have to say, though, I hate how tel var boss farming discourages PvP.. I wish there were more meaningful objectives to fight over in IC, and more meaningful, high demand rewards for fighting there.

Doctordarkspawn

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics , I totally understand why you want transmog to be tied to IC. You enjoy the content and want it to be healthy and rewarding. There is nothing wrong with that. But putting transmog in IC is not a good decision.

You are trying to take a feature that is sought after by the most casual playerbase and put it behind probably the most competitive content in the game. This is not a PvE vs. PvP issue. It's casual vs. competitive. I think high-end PvP and PvE players do not care about transmog. They would rather invest their gold and time into something more useful like gold tempers or shiny new sets to theorycraft with. Forcing casual players to buy transmog items from competitive players is not a good idea. This will cause an outcry and demand will be way higher than offer. Everything will just be too expensive for an average player.

Transmog doesn't belong in high-end PvP or HM trials. Ideally it should be available through something at least semi-casual. Undaunted chests and Rewards for the Worthy are much more suitable sources. Or it can also be tied to non-game systems (and let's be realistic here, this is mostlikely the case) as part of ESO+ or Crown Store.

This is the thread's very first and currently only rational and compelling counterargument against putting transmog in IC. I've been waiting for someone to make this very point. Good stuff!

So now the conversation can continue on from this post, ignoring those inflammatory anti-PvP zealots that went off in earlier pages.

I would argue that if drop rates in IC are high enough, prices can be kept low enough and supply high enough to not give the casual playerbase a heart attack while still providing PvPers some reasonable income. But I'm an optimist. My inner realist doubts ZOS' capability to maintain that balance. If the transmog items had a moderate drop chance from sewer bosses and a guaranteed drop chance from Molag Bal, we might make a decent step in the right direction. Those objectives aren't difficult to take down, but they are limited in number. They are also entirely ignored right new in lieu of district boss farming for tel var.

The TLDR of the previous pages is that casuals want to farm the items themselves and absolutely abhor the idea of purchasing them from others, especially evil PvPers. The evil PvPers raise an eyebrow and ask what's so bad about guild traders.

Personal attacks, slander, and misrepresentation. So much for civil discourse. Now who is the hypocrite?

Still you until you cool off and provide a logical argument like that person did. You literally said you hate PvPers and don't want any content which non-PvPers would desire to be added to PvP zones.

The logical arguements have been provided. You just dont like them. It wont save IC. It wont save your beloved IC.

And after this, I hope it never recovers. Just for you.

The rest of this isn't coherent. I dont see why my dislike of PVP player behavior and the purgatory that is IC PVE, which runs counterproductive to your stated goal of wanting to draw PVPers and not gank fodder into IC, is something I should be ashamed of. Is it because I'm making you contradict yourself?

NightbladeMechanics

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics , I totally understand why you want transmog to be tied to IC. You enjoy the content and want it to be healthy and rewarding. There is nothing wrong with that. But putting transmog in IC is not a good decision.

You are trying to take a feature that is sought after by the most casual playerbase and put it behind probably the most competitive content in the game. This is not a PvE vs. PvP issue. It's casual vs. competitive. I think high-end PvP and PvE players do not care about transmog. They would rather invest their gold and time into something more useful like gold tempers or shiny new sets to theorycraft with. Forcing casual players to buy transmog items from competitive players is not a good idea. This will cause an outcry and demand will be way higher than offer. Everything will just be too expensive for an average player.

Transmog doesn't belong in high-end PvP or HM trials. Ideally it should be available through something at least semi-casual. Undaunted chests and Rewards for the Worthy are much more suitable sources. Or it can also be tied to non-game systems (and let's be realistic here, this is mostlikely the case) as part of ESO+ or Crown Store.

This is the thread's very first and currently only rational and compelling counterargument against putting transmog in IC. I've been waiting for someone to make this very point. Good stuff!

So now the conversation can continue on from this post, ignoring those inflammatory anti-PvP zealots that went off in earlier pages.

I would argue that if drop rates in IC are high enough, prices can be kept low enough and supply high enough to not give the casual playerbase a heart attack while still providing PvPers some reasonable income. But I'm an optimist. My inner realist doubts ZOS' capability to maintain that balance. If the transmog items had a moderate drop chance from sewer bosses and a guaranteed drop chance from Molag Bal, we might make a decent step in the right direction. Those objectives aren't difficult to take down, but they are limited in number. They are also entirely ignored right new in lieu of district boss farming for tel var.

The TLDR of the previous pages is that casuals want to farm the items themselves and absolutely abhor the idea of purchasing them from others, especially evil PvPers. The evil PvPers raise an eyebrow and ask what's so bad about guild traders.

Personal attacks, slander, and misrepresentation. So much for civil discourse. Now who is the hypocrite?

Still you until you cool off and provide a logical argument like that person did. You literally said you hate PvPers and don't want any content which non-PvPers would desire to be added to PvP zones.

The logical arguements have been provided. You just dont like them. It wont save IC. It wont save your beloved IC.

And after this, I hope it never recovers. Just for you.

That is your opinion, but you haven't provided your supporting argument yet. We argued that
1) transmog is in high demand from a large portion of the playerbase right now, and
2) it will likely maintain reasonably high long-term demand.

These two features make it a viable reward for drawing players to IC and rewarding PvP with income.

So, assuming transmog is implemented in IC, and in order to obtain transmog mats, you had to either farm them in IC PvP or purchase them from guild traders, why wouldn't that bring people back to playing in IC?

Original crafting mats (wood, cloth, ingots) and Repora kept IC populated until they were added to other zones, then IC basically died. Right now, hakeijo are only accessible in IC. There are groups running around in IC every night fighting over bosses, but the game's demand for hakeijo and the availability of tel var aren't high enough to support a thriving IC. Given the success of IC very early on when new mats drove people there, and the ongoing interest created by hakeijo, why wouldn't transmog bring more PvPers to the city, and why couldn't selling transmog items be a source of income for PvPers?

Artis

Tannus15 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Artis The difference between furniture, furniture crafting and making transmog only available for tel'var is that furniture items are available game wide.

There are furniture vendors in every zone.
Furniture items can be purchased with AP.
There are furniture achievement vendors in every zone.
Furniture patterns drop in every zone. You can get them off mobs. You can get them off pick pocketing. You can get them from stealing.
And now furniture items can be acquired from all those places as well.
Furniture crafting materials drop in every zone.
You get special furniture items for completing dungeons and trials.


NO DLC is required to buy a house or access furniture.

Contrast this to the proposal.
The only place you can acquire transmog items is the imperial city.
It can only be acquired via tel'var stones.
Imperial city cannot be accessed without purchasing a DLC or subscribing.

I think it's pretty clear that your comparison to furniture is kinda BS. I literally don't know how furniture could be integrated more into more areas of the game than it already is.

He means that not everyone crafts, so most people have to buy furniture items from crafters.

Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription, so many people would have to buy transmog items from IC players.

There are a lot of furniture item options other than crafting. I've spent literally hundreds of thousands of gold buying furniture from NPC vendors.

You can not access most of the furniture if you don't craft/ buy from crafters or even pve. For example, PvPers only get very small part of it. AND get nothing to sell and finance their playstyle. Whereas crafters can get vouchers, craft items - and sell. Don't forget, not everyone likes to farm gold, so why lock this feature behind gold?

So nope, the comparison is not BS. What's BS is that you are okay with locking content behind what YOU play and aren't okay with having it behind what you don't play. Yet, you are talking as if you cared about the whole game and other players.

idk

Artis wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Artis The difference between furniture, furniture crafting and making transmog only available for tel'var is that furniture items are available game wide.

There are furniture vendors in every zone.
Furniture items can be purchased with AP.
There are furniture achievement vendors in every zone.
Furniture patterns drop in every zone. You can get them off mobs. You can get them off pick pocketing. You can get them from stealing.
And now furniture items can be acquired from all those places as well.
Furniture crafting materials drop in every zone.
You get special furniture items for completing dungeons and trials.


NO DLC is required to buy a house or access furniture.

Contrast this to the proposal.
The only place you can acquire transmog items is the imperial city.
It can only be acquired via tel'var stones.
Imperial city cannot be accessed without purchasing a DLC or subscribing.

I think it's pretty clear that your comparison to furniture is kinda BS. I literally don't know how furniture could be integrated more into more areas of the game than it already is.

He means that not everyone crafts, so most people have to buy furniture items from crafters.

Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription, so many people would have to buy transmog items from IC players.

There are a lot of furniture item options other than crafting. I've spent literally hundreds of thousands of gold buying furniture from NPC vendors.

You can not access most of the furniture if you don't craft/ buy from crafters or even pve. For example, PvPers only get very small part of it.

This does not really make sense. You essentially mention 4 of the 5 areas for obtaining furnishings outside of the crown store. BTW, you left out the regular furnishing vendors, which do sell some useful items.

Besides, if someone is that hard core PvP where they do not do any PvE are they really interested in a house? I am serious. idk, @Artis do you only PvP and also have a house you are trying to furnish?

This conversation has really devolved to night and not really talking about what I quoted.

Artis

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Artis The difference between furniture, furniture crafting and making transmog only available for tel'var is that furniture items are available game wide.

There are furniture vendors in every zone.
Furniture items can be purchased with AP.
There are furniture achievement vendors in every zone.
Furniture patterns drop in every zone. You can get them off mobs. You can get them off pick pocketing. You can get them from stealing.
And now furniture items can be acquired from all those places as well.
Furniture crafting materials drop in every zone.
You get special furniture items for completing dungeons and trials.


NO DLC is required to buy a house or access furniture.

Contrast this to the proposal.
The only place you can acquire transmog items is the imperial city.
It can only be acquired via tel'var stones.
Imperial city cannot be accessed without purchasing a DLC or subscribing.

I think it's pretty clear that your comparison to furniture is kinda BS. I literally don't know how furniture could be integrated more into more areas of the game than it already is.

He means that not everyone crafts, so most people have to buy furniture items from crafters.

Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription, so many people would have to buy transmog items from IC players.

There are a lot of furniture item options other than crafting. I've spent literally hundreds of thousands of gold buying furniture from NPC vendors.

You can not access most of the furniture if you don't craft/ buy from crafters or even pve. For example, PvPers only get very small part of it.

This does not really make sense. You essentially mention 4 of the 5 areas for obtaining furnishings outside of the crown store. BTW, you left out the regular furnishing vendors, which do sell some useful items.

Besides, if someone is that hard core PvP where they do not do any PvE are they really interested in a house? I am serious. idk, @Artis do you only PvP and also have a house you are trying to furnish?

This conversation has really devolved to night and not really talking about what I quoted.

SOME useful items? Oh sure, you can have SOME useful transmog items too. That cool? Those some useful items are definitely not enough to furnish anything.

No, I almost don't pvp at all. Just started trying to learn again. I just don't like when people don't make sense. And in this case it's pretty obvious that people coming with arguments like "ohh but I don't want to pvp" are hypocrites.

And sure, why wouldn't PvP players be interested in furnishing and relaxing between their pvp sessions? How is that different from pve players - aren't they supposed to just pve?

idk

Artis wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Artis The difference between furniture, furniture crafting and making transmog only available for tel'var is that furniture items are available game wide.

There are furniture vendors in every zone.
Furniture items can be purchased with AP.
There are furniture achievement vendors in every zone.
Furniture patterns drop in every zone. You can get them off mobs. You can get them off pick pocketing. You can get them from stealing.
And now furniture items can be acquired from all those places as well.
Furniture crafting materials drop in every zone.
You get special furniture items for completing dungeons and trials.


NO DLC is required to buy a house or access furniture.

Contrast this to the proposal.
The only place you can acquire transmog items is the imperial city.
It can only be acquired via tel'var stones.
Imperial city cannot be accessed without purchasing a DLC or subscribing.

I think it's pretty clear that your comparison to furniture is kinda BS. I literally don't know how furniture could be integrated more into more areas of the game than it already is.

He means that not everyone crafts, so most people have to buy furniture items from crafters.

Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription, so many people would have to buy transmog items from IC players.

There are a lot of furniture item options other than crafting. I've spent literally hundreds of thousands of gold buying furniture from NPC vendors.

You can not access most of the furniture if you don't craft/ buy from crafters or even pve. For example, PvPers only get very small part of it.

This does not really make sense. You essentially mention 4 of the 5 areas for obtaining furnishings outside of the crown store. BTW, you left out the regular furnishing vendors, which do sell some useful items.

Besides, if someone is that hard core PvP where they do not do any PvE are they really interested in a house? I am serious. idk, @Artis do you only PvP and also have a house you are trying to furnish?

This conversation has really devolved to night and not really talking about what I quoted.

SOME useful items? Oh sure, you can have SOME useful transmog items too. That cool? Those some useful items are definitely not enough to furnish anything.

No, I almost don't pvp at all. Just started trying to learn again. I just don't like when people don't make sense. And in this case it's pretty obvious that people coming with arguments like "ohh but I don't want to pvp" are hypocrites.

And sure, why wouldn't PvP players be interested in furnishing and relaxing between their pvp sessions? How is that different from pve players - aren't they supposed to just pve?

Dude, Zos put in 5 ways to get furniture, each with differing selections. OMG, forgot the luxury vendor on the weekends. BTW, My bet is you know people with houses that have purchased items from the regular vendors. Docks, ramps, stones, bushes and more.

For hard core PvP players, what would they do with a house. Make it pretty. No. If they had a house they would use it for dueling. I doubt they would spend time furnishing it. I am not a hard core PvP person but I can tell you I do not worry about my house outside of a test dummy. There is not a test dummy for PvP either.

My argument has nothing to do with PvP. It has to do with no one want to go down to IC as it is, PvE or PvP. Why force players to play an instance no one wants to play. Just look at my posts on the last few pages. Makes it clear.

NightbladeMechanics

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Artis The difference between furniture, furniture crafting and making transmog only available for tel'var is that furniture items are available game wide.

There are furniture vendors in every zone.
Furniture items can be purchased with AP.
There are furniture achievement vendors in every zone.
Furniture patterns drop in every zone. You can get them off mobs. You can get them off pick pocketing. You can get them from stealing.
And now furniture items can be acquired from all those places as well.
Furniture crafting materials drop in every zone.
You get special furniture items for completing dungeons and trials.


NO DLC is required to buy a house or access furniture.

Contrast this to the proposal.
The only place you can acquire transmog items is the imperial city.
It can only be acquired via tel'var stones.
Imperial city cannot be accessed without purchasing a DLC or subscribing.

I think it's pretty clear that your comparison to furniture is kinda BS. I literally don't know how furniture could be integrated more into more areas of the game than it already is.

He means that not everyone crafts, so most people have to buy furniture items from crafters.

Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription, so many people would have to buy transmog items from IC players.

There are a lot of furniture item options other than crafting. I've spent literally hundreds of thousands of gold buying furniture from NPC vendors.

You can not access most of the furniture if you don't craft/ buy from crafters or even pve. For example, PvPers only get very small part of it.

This does not really make sense. You essentially mention 4 of the 5 areas for obtaining furnishings outside of the crown store. BTW, you left out the regular furnishing vendors, which do sell some useful items.

Besides, if someone is that hard core PvP where they do not do any PvE are they really interested in a house? I am serious. idk, @Artis do you only PvP and also have a house you are trying to furnish?

This conversation has really devolved to night and not really talking about what I quoted.

SOME useful items? Oh sure, you can have SOME useful transmog items too. That cool? Those some useful items are definitely not enough to furnish anything.

No, I almost don't pvp at all. Just started trying to learn again. I just don't like when people don't make sense. And in this case it's pretty obvious that people coming with arguments like "ohh but I don't want to pvp" are hypocrites.

And sure, why wouldn't PvP players be interested in furnishing and relaxing between their pvp sessions? How is that different from pve players - aren't they supposed to just pve?

Dude, Zos put in 5 ways to get furniture, each with differing selections. OMG, forgot the luxury vendor on the weekends. BTW, My bet is you know people with houses that have purchased items from the regular vendors. Docks, ramps, stones, bushes and more.

For hard core PvP players, what would they do with a house. Make it pretty. No. If they had a house they would use it for dueling. I doubt they would spend time furnishing it. I am not a hard core PvP person but I can tell you I do not worry about my house outside of a test dummy. There is not a test dummy for PvP either.

My argument has nothing to do with PvP. It has to do with no one want to go down to IC as it is, PvE or PvP. Why force players to play an instance no one wants to play. Just look at my posts on the last few pages. Makes it clear.

I am a hardcore PvP player, and I love housing. My Earthtear Cavern is meticulously decorated as a Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary. It also serves as my PvP guild's Guild House with crafting stations, mundus stones, testing dummies for testing numbers, a dueling area, and fun towers and other constructs for shenanigans.

The thing is my house is 100% funded with easily over 10 million gold (and a few crowns). I don't craft housing items, so I had to make gold in other ways and then purchase items from other players. They made a profit off of me.

I also had to do a LOT of random and (in my opinion) boring and meaningless PvE quests to purchase desired items from achievement vendors.

But you don't see me complaining about housing being locked behind PvE and crafting and gold purchases. I did the content that I needed to do, farmed the gold that I needed to farm, hating it all the while, and in the end I decorated my house the way I wanted. You're welcome to come take a look. As Artis said (and you conveniently cut out from your quote), this argument comes down to you guys happily having features locked behind YOUR content, but being outraged when features are locked behind content you don't want to play. See below.

NightbladeMechanics

Artis wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Artis The difference between furniture, furniture crafting and making transmog only available for tel'var is that furniture items are available game wide.

There are furniture vendors in every zone.
Furniture items can be purchased with AP.
There are furniture achievement vendors in every zone.
Furniture patterns drop in every zone. You can get them off mobs. You can get them off pick pocketing. You can get them from stealing.
And now furniture items can be acquired from all those places as well.
Furniture crafting materials drop in every zone.
You get special furniture items for completing dungeons and trials.


NO DLC is required to buy a house or access furniture.

Contrast this to the proposal.
The only place you can acquire transmog items is the imperial city.
It can only be acquired via tel'var stones.
Imperial city cannot be accessed without purchasing a DLC or subscribing.

I think it's pretty clear that your comparison to furniture is kinda BS. I literally don't know how furniture could be integrated more into more areas of the game than it already is.

He means that not everyone crafts, so most people have to buy furniture items from crafters.

Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription, so many people would have to buy transmog items from IC players.

There are a lot of furniture item options other than crafting. I've spent literally hundreds of thousands of gold buying furniture from NPC vendors.

You can not access most of the furniture if you don't craft/ buy from crafters or even pve. For example, PvPers only get very small part of it. AND get nothing to sell and finance their playstyle. Whereas crafters can get vouchers, craft items - and sell. Don't forget, not everyone likes to farm gold, so why lock this feature behind gold?

So nope, the comparison is not BS. What's BS is that you are okay with locking content behind what YOU play and aren't okay with having it behind what you don't play. Yet, you are talking as if you cared about the whole game and other players.

QFT

The hypocrisy of this zealous anti-PvP crowd is real.

NightbladeMechanics

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

@WhiteMage

I'm perfectly happy to discuss IC as a thing and what we can do to fix the apparent relevence problem it has.

Holding Transmog as a ransom for it speaks poorly of the IC community, and IC as a whole. It's threatening to try to hold a feature hostage if you dont get what you want, which is greed. (And I say 'you ' as metaphorical, it's not ment to be pointed at anyone.)

So if you wanna have that conversation by all means, lets have it, in a seperate thread. This is just stupid.

Edited to remove the wrong quote. And I'm too lazy to rewrite it so there you go.

Edit 2: It's also worth noting that this massive push for new features to be held hostage repeatedly is -why- people hate PVP. Most of us are happy to leave people to their own devices. PVPers, never have been. It's allways 'nerf this!' or 'tie this into PVP!' You can only do it for so long before people -hate you-.

Are hakeijos, Akaviri motifs, or xivkyn polymorphs being held for ransom too? Why is being accessed in a PvP zone being "held for ransom?" Are PvPers not allowed to have nice things? We already have so little.

FYI we don't push to absorb new features "repeatedly," or "hold them hostage" as you say. In fact, we're rather used to being ignored and neglected by ZOS. We do call for nerfs constantly because this game's balance sucks and class and itemization imbalance disproportionately affect PvP. No one cares of proc sets are overperforming in vMA. Stam sorcs get high scores (was it SotH patch?), but your gameplay on other classes isn't impeded. When proc sets are op in PvP, you get one shot and literally don't get to play the game. Your comment is insensitive.

@NightbladeMechanics

Considering that the runestones (I wont spell them out) are not obtainable any other way, yes. By definition. Xivkyn Polymorphs and Akaviri motifs, are purely cosmetic and limited in capacity, and are thus the sort of 'bragging rights' thing that PVP can have without too much impact on everything else.

As for 'we dont push', bull. You do push. You do hold them hostage. And even though you push for things to be nerfed, it's more because PVP balance sucks.It's allways going to suck. The environment, AKA, the ammount of variables that need to be accounted for across PVP and PVE, ensure that it'll allways suck unless PVP is given full consideration, and it never, will.

It's funny because even when PVPers dont push for changes, their made anyway! I remember the block-regen nerf. The Wrath changes. I remember the devs just making heavy armor the problem it is for PVP now, ALL WITHOUT EVER BEING ASKED. So dont even -give- me that you dishonest little ***, I'll have none of it.

PVP requires all other forms of play to either be nonexistant or devalued, for it to be balanced. And it allways has been. It cannot be balanced with other game modes. I dont give a good god-damn whether my comment is insensitive. Plus, the irony. Oh the irony. "Muh feelings".

If you're going to use a phrase as steeped in negative connotation as "holding hostage" so frivolously, then I'll point out that PvEers hold waaaaay more of the game's resources and features "hostage." We don't hate you for it, though.

And no PvPers wanted the changes you listed, either. The heavy armor and proc set buffs of Dark Brotherhood patch ruined PvP game balance for a year. You're blaming us and hating us -- a very strong word -- for something we didn't support or ask for. Not fair, and not rational.

I'll also point out that game balance can be had across PvP and PvE simultaneously. If ZOS were to balance player abilities, armor sets, etc etc around PvP first, they could then balance PvE mobs and bosses and other encounters around the players. Sorcs needing to deal a little extra damage to function in PvP, for example? Ok, give the new trial boss a small bonus resistance to shock damage. The thing is that you can't control players -- they'll dig up and exploit the most broken, imbalanced things -- but you can control NPCs. This is the higher level of thinking that needs to occur for simultaneous balance to succeed. It requires more work, though, so although it's entirely possible, it won't likely happen.

You're emotional for some reason that I don't understand, and I'm sorry for that. But I'm trying to have a mature and rational and civil conversation. Please keep the hate to a minimum... The PvPer attitudes and behavior that you're describing are not those of the majority, so please don't generalize.

I'll adress these and leave it at that, as your greed blinds you to damn near everything else.

If the content and resources your yellling about are anything aside from, say, the zones, the quests, the dungeons and the dev time it takes to do them, I cant think of them. You dont have to play them. And when you do, it's generally a easy enough thing to accomplish. And yes, YOU DO HATE US FOR IT. The threads like this. The eternal "I HAVE TO GRIND FOR UNDAUNTED PASSIVES SO SHUT UP NO MATTER WHAT YOUR SAYING". You cant speak for your community and even if you could, you lie. I have seen it. Repeately. Dont *** on my head, and tell me it's colovian ale.

It's also not true no PVPers wanted it. A sizeable portion jumped at the chance. So I -will- hate them for it, and the community that has subsequently cried about it until ZOS took a mallet to HA's kneecaps.

As for PVP and PVE balance, no. It cant. I have seen enough MMO's to know, that unless the two are kept entirely seperate, they cant. Nothing you say is going to have a ghost of a chance challenging experiences from half a dozen MMO's, where this has been the case.

I'm angry, yes. I'm angry for two distinct reasons. That your attempting to repurpose more of the game for your greed, and that in the process you've taken to crusading, attempting to paint the PVP community as better than they are. The fact you are still advocating this, still advocating holding a feature hostage (And I dont care how you try to justify it, it dont make it right man, even when the other guys do it) and still trying to paint the PVP community as have not bashed anyone who ever dared to say something about making a PVE version of Vigor. Or opposing a PVP based change.

@NightbladeMechanics I hate. I will continue to hate. I will continue to hate your selfishness, your communities behavior, and most of all how you have brainwashed yourself into thinking that what your doing is justified. You wanna fix IC? Fine. Fix IC. But dont try to justify stealing from everyone else. I dont care how you do it. You still stole. You dont understand why I'm so emotional? Then your not lisening very hard, now are you?

So enough with the faux peacemaking. Take your olive branch and burn it. Your not sorry, and if you are, I dont want your sympathy. I want for you to shut up and stop trying to steal from the rest of us. There is no rational discussion to be had here. People have explained why this wont work, cant work, you dont wanna hear it. And sound and fury appears to have just bounced off you. So all that's left, is just to let the thread -die-.

Returning to this post to agree that there are bad eggs in both communities.

I still ask you to not generalize your hate onto all PvPers. We are a pretty chill group for the most part. We're used to being the redheaded stepchild in this game, and we ask for little compared to the PvE community.

And I'll point out again that you're one of the bad eggs in the PvE community... You're acting just as toxic as the worst of the PvP community which you've come to hate. js

Artis

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Dude, Zos put in 5 ways to get furniture, each with differing selections. OMG, forgot the luxury vendor on the weekends. BTW, My bet is you know people with houses that have purchased items from the regular vendors. Docks, ramps, stones, bushes and more.

For hard core PvP players, what would they do with a house. Make it pretty. No. If they had a house they would use it for dueling. I doubt they would spend time furnishing it. I am not a hard core PvP person but I can tell you I do not worry about my house outside of a test dummy. There is not a test dummy for PvP either.

My argument has nothing to do with PvP. It has to do with no one want to go down to IC as it is, PvE or PvP. Why force players to play an instance no one wants to play. Just look at my posts on the last few pages. Makes it clear.

So? ALL of those 5 ways are actually 1 way - you NEED to have a lot of gold to buy those things. Almost no furniture is free. And only basic furniture is cheap. Stones and bushes are not enough to make a cool house.

Yes. Make it pretty. Why not? WTF is this bigotry? Housing is completely orthogonal to pvp or pve.

YES, people want to go down to IC. But doing that = net negative gold. I would love to go there. But I don't even get my gold back between potions I use, let alone get more to buy more potions for the next time.

And what is your argument? That most people don't go there? Well, not only I explained it above (it's not rewarding), but also it's - again- very double standard. Most people weren't crafting, so zos had to add writs, then increase gold mats drop rate, then add vouchers and tie all furnishing system to crafting. THREE TIMES they did something with it to reward people for it, because they wouldn't do it otherwise. Yet, you won't say - why force players to play something no one wanted to play? How come?

max_only

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Why are pvpers never satisfied with killing each other? Why do you need to lure carebears into IC?

If IC was an enjoyable game mode in the first place, then pvpers would already be there.

Why is it empty? Is it really lack of incentive or is it just not fun even for people who like pvp?

If telvar was ONE of the methods to get these hypothetical transmog stones then fine, but not the only method.

Anyway this argument of hypotheticals is useless, ZOS has no monetary incentive to revitalize old content. Transmog will be through Mimic Stones or require some other purchase. Done.

We don't want carebears in IC. We want serious players to fight against, but we also want something of value to fight over, or to receive as a reward for playing our preferred content. PvPers are still the poorest player group with AP being the weakest currency by far and tel var being a good source of income only with heavy boss grinding -- which discourages PvP.

IC is empty because we don't have anything to fight over aside from district flags, which have the worst flipping and respawn mechanics imaginable. They encourage potato zergs, get repetitive and boring to fight over, and don't contribute to any higher goal, like the campaign, at all.

Transmog is neither a PvE nor PvP feature. Don't act like you own it or that it would somehow be unacceptable if it were implemented in PvP content. How would you feel if it were implemented as an auxiliary feature of the upcoming Midyear Mayhem PvP holiday event in Cyrodiil?

You're right: Transmog is neither a PvE nor PvP feature. It's cosmetic. Therefore it will be where the rest of the cosmetics are, in the crown store.

Also, I'm looking forward to grinding out a laurel leaf circlet/crown during Midyear Mayhem.

WhiteMage

Jeez @Doctordarkspawn ... I don't know how you can stand to have so much hate in you... You need to let that go, man. This is the Internet. No one here knows who you are, let alone has reason to hate you. Dude. Don't project any hatred onto PvPers.

There are four type of gamers, according to Bartle's Taxonomy. PvPers would definitely fit into the "Killers" category (which some call griefers, but that is unfair). To us, knowledge is power and killing other players has its own joy in it, something that just isn't there when fighting scripted, predictable PvE monsters. There are many kind of killers, and like any other group of people, some of us are ***, yes, but *** don't hate you. Precisely because there is no hatred behind offensive behavior by these people makes them ***. But you know, some explorers and achievers and socializers are *** too. A killer might show it by ganking you over and over again, whereas a socializer will verbally abuse you in zone chat.

Some people just don't enjoy PvP and for the life of me I'll never understand that. But seriously. None of us hate you, especially as a person. We have nothing against you for you just doing you. PvPers are people too and people don't go around hating for no good reason. Killers live in a kill or be killed world, a wreck or get rekt, a (pardon my language) *** or get *** world, and deal with the latter examples by bettering ourselves/situations. That may be how we have been putting up with, since forever, the great neglect we are getting from MMO developers. ZOS and ESO aren't special in that regard, but we are playing ESO and things aren't great so what do we do? We go about improving our situation. Some change themselves, and enjoy a different type of playstyle, while others try to communicate with the developers to get things on a good track. It has been incredibly frustrating seeing our side of the table be neglected, especially when PvE isn't. Maybe you don't see the goodies and the quality of life changes that are made that don't affect PvP in the slightest. Maybe you don't see in inconveniences that PvPers have to endure in order to better compete. There are a plethora of great potential PvP sets locked away behind PvE dungeons, all BoP, while in PvP we have a number of sets that PvEers couldn't care less about, but if they ever did they could get them cheap in a guild store because they are all BoE. Maybe you don't see how little we get currency-wise in PvP compared to the prices for so many goodies found in PvE that we need to better compete. Maybe you don't see that the only DLC that we have a stake in, IC, is pretty lame, because it was designed as a "PvP-enabled PvE zone" (IIRC that is how it is advertised). What's that mean?

IC is that dream world for many PvPers: a zone where PvPers can go around killing PvEers if they so choose. We all know why that is just a fantasy. In fact, you can observe the same phenomenon in just PvPers. When one side overpowers the other(s) and holds that indisputable control over another for long enough, well... population wanes as people log off and log on less frequently, which serves to perpetuate the cycle. (Even now DC are doing this in Sotha Sil, NA PC are are clueless towards the consequences) now apply that between PvPers (who will never lose to PvEers in a vacuum due to poor game mechanics (PvE is not at all like PvP) ) and PvEers. Yep, the PvEers slowly drain away, leaving only the dominant side to circle jerk till they log in less. Now drag this out over a year.

IC, rather than be a PvPers wonderland, is a lousy zone filled with too many mobs for some PvPers and too many PvPers for some PvEers. It needs a facelift, and the OP has offered many very different suggestings for it over the last year and a half. It needs something, undeniably, but if we knew what it was then it'd be fixed by now.

So yes, many dirty rotten "griefers" are frustrated with the "carebears" that care nothing for us because of some perceived offense, but we don't hate you. If I met you in cyrodiil, I'd love to kill you. If I met Kena in cyrodiil, I'd love to kill him too. I made a build specifically for doing that because I got screwed in the arse many times trying to (haven't tested it on him, but it's my go-to anti-mNB build). It's not his suffering I crave (that would be a bonus) and it's not yours either. It's whatever you got up top and how you bring it to the table when I meet you in a dark alley.

We don't hate you. We really don't.

Tannus15

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Artis The difference between furniture, furniture crafting and making transmog only available for tel'var is that furniture items are available game wide.

There are furniture vendors in every zone.
Furniture items can be purchased with AP.
There are furniture achievement vendors in every zone.
Furniture patterns drop in every zone. You can get them off mobs. You can get them off pick pocketing. You can get them from stealing.
And now furniture items can be acquired from all those places as well.
Furniture crafting materials drop in every zone.
You get special furniture items for completing dungeons and trials.


NO DLC is required to buy a house or access furniture.

Contrast this to the proposal.
The only place you can acquire transmog items is the imperial city.
It can only be acquired via tel'var stones.
Imperial city cannot be accessed without purchasing a DLC or subscribing.

I think it's pretty clear that your comparison to furniture is kinda BS. I literally don't know how furniture could be integrated more into more areas of the game than it already is.

He means that not everyone crafts, so most people have to buy furniture items from crafters.

Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription, so many people would have to buy transmog items from IC players.

There are a lot of furniture item options other than crafting. I've spent literally hundreds of thousands of gold buying furniture from NPC vendors.

That is beside the point. You pay gold for those items just like you pay gold for crafted ones if you are not a crafter yourself.

The analogy was comparing farming transmog items yourself to crafting furniture items yourself, versus having to buy transmog or furniture pieces from vendors (guild traders and regular furniture traders being comparable gold transactions).

Edit: to elaborate, not everyone crafts. Those who do can make their own furniture, but those who don't have to purchase theirs with gold. Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription. Those who do can farm their own transmog items in IC, but those who don't have to purchase theirs with gold. Sorry for the confusion.

Yeah, but my point is that you can acquire furniture from literally anywhere where this idea put it solely in the Imperial City, behind a DLC paywall, in an area that the majority of the player base has no interest in going to.

You justification for this seems to be two fold.

1: the get more people to play in the imperial city because you enjoy that content.
2: So that people who also enjoy that content feel incentive into playing there, ie: they can sell transmogs for gold.

And you seem to be ok with this by somehow equating tel'var with gold. Gold is the most common currency in the game. Tel'var is probably the most rare.
Then your second layer of defence is that people who can't or won't go to the imperial city can buy it off guild vendors, and this is ok because that's how furniture works with crafting.

Artis wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Artis The difference between furniture, furniture crafting and making transmog only available for tel'var is that furniture items are available game wide.

There are furniture vendors in every zone.
Furniture items can be purchased with AP.
There are furniture achievement vendors in every zone.
Furniture patterns drop in every zone. You can get them off mobs. You can get them off pick pocketing. You can get them from stealing.
And now furniture items can be acquired from all those places as well.
Furniture crafting materials drop in every zone.
You get special furniture items for completing dungeons and trials.


NO DLC is required to buy a house or access furniture.

Contrast this to the proposal.
The only place you can acquire transmog items is the imperial city.
It can only be acquired via tel'var stones.
Imperial city cannot be accessed without purchasing a DLC or subscribing.

I think it's pretty clear that your comparison to furniture is kinda BS. I literally don't know how furniture could be integrated more into more areas of the game than it already is.

He means that not everyone crafts, so most people have to buy furniture items from crafters.

Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription, so many people would have to buy transmog items from IC players.

There are a lot of furniture item options other than crafting. I've spent literally hundreds of thousands of gold buying furniture from NPC vendors.

You can not access most of the furniture if you don't craft/ buy from crafters or even pve. For example, PvPers only get very small part of it. AND get nothing to sell and finance their playstyle. Whereas crafters can get vouchers, craft items - and sell. Don't forget, not everyone likes to farm gold, so why lock this feature behind gold?

So nope, the comparison is not BS. What's BS is that you are okay with locking content behind what YOU play and aren't okay with having it behind what you don't play. Yet, you are talking as if you cared about the whole game and other players.

Furniture is not locked behind a DLC. If furniture mats were only available in wrothgar or hew's bane I would also be pissed in EXACTLY the same way I'm pissed that battlegrounds are locked behind Morrowind, even though I don't play them.

Locking features behind DLC which should be fundamental to the game is idiotic.

Artis

Tannus15 wrote: »

Furniture is not locked behind a DLC. If furniture mats were only available in wrothgar or hew's bane I would also be pissed in EXACTLY the same way I'm pissed that battlegrounds are locked behind Morrowind, even though I don't play them.

Locking features behind DLC which should be fundamental to the game is idiotic.

Not all furniture. But some furniture is. A lot of pvp sets are.

And yes, THAT is the only sound point - locked behind DLC. But when did that stop ZOS? On the contrary, it's good for them too - will encourage people to buy that DLC. Sorry, but a lot of purely cosmetic things are locked behind DLCs. Some motifs, some dyes, some furniture, some costumes. Besides, no one says transmog stuff should only be acquired in IC 100% of the time.Sure, there can be much smaller drop rates in base game. Besides, as far as I know, most guild stores aren't locked behind any DLC.... Imagine, that you're buying that stuff from vendors for gold. DOn't pay much attention that it was players who listed those things at that vendor. For all you care - it's just a vendor selling things for gold. Just like all furniture which you are okay with.

NightbladeMechanics

Tannus15 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Artis The difference between furniture, furniture crafting and making transmog only available for tel'var is that furniture items are available game wide.

There are furniture vendors in every zone.
Furniture items can be purchased with AP.
There are furniture achievement vendors in every zone.
Furniture patterns drop in every zone. You can get them off mobs. You can get them off pick pocketing. You can get them from stealing.
And now furniture items can be acquired from all those places as well.
Furniture crafting materials drop in every zone.
You get special furniture items for completing dungeons and trials.


NO DLC is required to buy a house or access furniture.

Contrast this to the proposal.
The only place you can acquire transmog items is the imperial city.
It can only be acquired via tel'var stones.
Imperial city cannot be accessed without purchasing a DLC or subscribing.

I think it's pretty clear that your comparison to furniture is kinda BS. I literally don't know how furniture could be integrated more into more areas of the game than it already is.

He means that not everyone crafts, so most people have to buy furniture items from crafters.

Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription, so many people would have to buy transmog items from IC players.

There are a lot of furniture item options other than crafting. I've spent literally hundreds of thousands of gold buying furniture from NPC vendors.

That is beside the point. You pay gold for those items just like you pay gold for crafted ones if you are not a crafter yourself.

The analogy was comparing farming transmog items yourself to crafting furniture items yourself, versus having to buy transmog or furniture pieces from vendors (guild traders and regular furniture traders being comparable gold transactions).

Edit: to elaborate, not everyone crafts. Those who do can make their own furniture, but those who don't have to purchase theirs with gold. Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription. Those who do can farm their own transmog items in IC, but those who don't have to purchase theirs with gold. Sorry for the confusion.

Yeah, but my point is that you can acquire furniture from literally anywhere where this idea put it solely in the Imperial City, behind a DLC paywall, in an area that the majority of the player base has no interest in going to.

You justification for this seems to be two fold.

1: the get more people to play in the imperial city because you enjoy that content.
2: So that people who also enjoy that content feel incentive into playing there, ie: they can sell transmogs for gold.

And you seem to be ok with this by somehow equating tel'var with gold. Gold is the most common currency in the game. Tel'var is probably the most rare.
Then your second layer of defence is that people who can't or won't go to the imperial city can buy it off guild vendors, and this is ok because that's how furniture works with crafting.

Artis wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Artis The difference between furniture, furniture crafting and making transmog only available for tel'var is that furniture items are available game wide.

There are furniture vendors in every zone.
Furniture items can be purchased with AP.
There are furniture achievement vendors in every zone.
Furniture patterns drop in every zone. You can get them off mobs. You can get them off pick pocketing. You can get them from stealing.
And now furniture items can be acquired from all those places as well.
Furniture crafting materials drop in every zone.
You get special furniture items for completing dungeons and trials.


NO DLC is required to buy a house or access furniture.

Contrast this to the proposal.
The only place you can acquire transmog items is the imperial city.
It can only be acquired via tel'var stones.
Imperial city cannot be accessed without purchasing a DLC or subscribing.

I think it's pretty clear that your comparison to furniture is kinda BS. I literally don't know how furniture could be integrated more into more areas of the game than it already is.

He means that not everyone crafts, so most people have to buy furniture items from crafters.

Similarly, not everyone plays PvP or has an ESO+ subscription, so many people would have to buy transmog items from IC players.

There are a lot of furniture item options other than crafting. I've spent literally hundreds of thousands of gold buying furniture from NPC vendors.

You can not access most of the furniture if you don't craft/ buy from crafters or even pve. For example, PvPers only get very small part of it. AND get nothing to sell and finance their playstyle. Whereas crafters can get vouchers, craft items - and sell. Don't forget, not everyone likes to farm gold, so why lock this feature behind gold?

So nope, the comparison is not BS. What's BS is that you are okay with locking content behind what YOU play and aren't okay with having it behind what you don't play. Yet, you are talking as if you cared about the whole game and other players.

Furniture is not locked behind a DLC. If furniture mats were only available in wrothgar or hew's bane I would also be pissed in EXACTLY the same way I'm pissed that battlegrounds are locked behind Morrowind, even though I don't play them.

Locking features behind DLC which should be fundamental to the game is idiotic.

Yep, that sounds about right. I want to give people more reasons to fight over bosses and flags in IC, and I want the tel var currency to be stronger.

I disagree with your aversion to "locking" things behind DLCs, though. ZOS is a business, and they have to make money in order to keep creating content.

TheRealPotoroo

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I've not insulted anyone. I've just triggered you all by pointing out that you aren't entitled to own every new feature of the game. You're the one insulting me.

Oh, yes you have, troll. Go back a few pages to where you were unloading with the "gitgud" garbage. We don't need to "gitgud" in a mode we want nothing to do with, but you desperately need to git a clue.