THE PROCALYPSE

Durham

Procs are bad in non CP... But in CP they are not as bad... So here we go... do we balance around CP or Non CP? Most of the population of the game is CP with PVE .. Most PVP players still prefer CP over non CP..... So ZOS created BG's that are non CP were half of the population of PVP'ers are not going participate because its no CP.... So right now we have two PVP meta's CP and Non CP ... CP is going no where because the vast majority of the playerbase plays PVE... All PVP could go no-CP but ZoS also know that over half of the PVP base likes CP PVP.... So what to do?

This is a problem ZOS has created....

Rickter

As someone who has experienced the "Jodi" duo in BGs, I 100% agree with the OP.

I refuse to wear proc sets in pvp. and I pay for it. its a choice. "self regulation" as you put it. Hopefully ZOS will take action soon. I know they have the capability. it took them less than a week to nerf high hp shield spamming Dragonknight PvE tanks so i would like to see this at the very least acknowledged in writing that the proc sets are over performing.

akray21

Which proc sets would every one say are over preforming? Because it's definitely not all of them. For example no one is complaining about Poisonous Serpent, Sunderflame, Affliction, Ice Furnace, Way of Fire, Grothdar, Iceheart, Ilambris, Infernal Guardian, Kra'gh, Maw of the Infernal, Nerien'eth, Sellistrix, Spawn of Mephala, and Stormfist.

Some of the sets being complained about that are not OP, like Selen's and Velidreth (both these procs ars easily dodge-able).

The sets that are OP are only slightly over preforming and are not as bad as most here claim. I believe the following sets need a slight tune down... Viper, Red Mountain, Valkyn Skoria, and Tremorscale. The main offenders are Viper and Red Mountain because they deal large damage and are easy to proc. The best way to balance these is to add additional requirements to proc.

OR... If ZOS is lazy and wants to go with a blanket change, I think the best thing to do is add a .5 - .9 second un-cancelable animation when the proc occurs.

Sandman929

akray21 wrote: »

Which proc sets would every one say are over preforming? Because it's definitely not all of them. For example no one is complaining about Poisonous Serpent, Sunderflame, Affliction, Ice Furnace, Way of Fire, Grothdar, Iceheart, Ilambris, Infernal Guardian, Kra'gh, Maw of the Infernal, Nerien'eth, Sellistrix, Spawn of Mephala, and Stormfist.

Some of the sets being complained about that are not OP, like Selen's and Velidreth (both these procs ars easily dodge-able).

The sets that are OP are only slightly over preforming and are not as bad as most here claim. I believe the following sets need a slight tune down... Viper, Red Mountain, Valkyn Skoria, and Tremorscale. The main offenders are Viper and Red Mountain because they deal large damage and are easy to proc. The best way to balance these is to add additional requirements to proc.

If ZOS is lazy and wants to go with a blanket change, I think the best thing to do is add a .5 - .9 second un-cancelable animation when the proc occurs.

For me it's not a question of over-performing or not, any armor that does direct damage is just a bad idea. Damage should be player initiated for competitive PvP. Armor sets that increase damage potential are fine, because the player has to make use of that potential.
Sadly, ZOS disagrees with this philosophy.

Anti_Virus

It would be really nice if Zos looks at Stam classes ( specifically Stam DK and Sorc) in pvp and make some buffs for them.

As it stands you cannot burst a anyone down with class kit alone, two dots for dk, worthless, one AoE? Meh.

Forced to spam Dizzing swing, or LA ransack/heroic slash bash that alone will not kill anyone either. Unless you wear medium armor but then you are squishy and a NB in medium has more survivability with cloak and damage options (Suprise attack) than you so what the point.

If these issues were adressed maybe then there would be less proc sets.

Sandman929

Anti_Virus wrote: »

It would be really nice if Zos looks at Stam classes ( specifically Stam DK and Sorc) in pvp and make some buffs for them.

As it stands you cannot burst a anyone down with class kit alone, two dots for dk, worthless, one AoE? Meh.

Forced to spam Dizzing swing, or LA ransack/heroic slash bash than alone will not kill anyone either. Unless you wear medium armor but then you are squishy and a NB in medium has more survivability with cloak and damage options (Suprise attack) than you so what the point.

If these issues were adressed maybe then there would be less proc sets.

Agreed, and because it's a complex problem, it's unlikely to be addressed. Blanket changes just give the appearance of addressing issues.

Rianai

akray21 wrote: »

Some of the sets being complained about that are not OP, like Selen's and Velidreth (both these procs ars easily dodge-able).

Veli and Selene can't be dodged when they proc while you get cc'ed, which happens a lot. Also sometimes the dmg from selene tends to hit before the actual animation goes of, leaving no time to react. Veli is only easy to avoid at range. And even if you dodge them it means you have to spend resurces on something that is free for the enemy.

Imo those two sets are by far the most problematic, because the dmg is so huge. They hit harder than most abilities, including ults, and it is pure rng, when they go off.

akray21

Sandman929 wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

Which proc sets would every one say are over preforming? Because it's definitely not all of them. For example no one is complaining about Poisonous Serpent, Sunderflame, Affliction, Ice Furnace, Way of Fire, Grothdar, Iceheart, Ilambris, Infernal Guardian, Kra'gh, Maw of the Infernal, Nerien'eth, Sellistrix, Spawn of Mephala, and Stormfist.

Some of the sets being complained about that are not OP, like Selen's and Velidreth (both these procs ars easily dodge-able).

The sets that are OP are only slightly over preforming and are not as bad as most here claim. I believe the following sets need a slight tune down... Viper, Red Mountain, Valkyn Skoria, and Tremorscale. The main offenders are Viper and Red Mountain because they deal large damage and are easy to proc. The best way to balance these is to add additional requirements to proc.

If ZOS is lazy and wants to go with a blanket change, I think the best thing to do is add a .5 - .9 second un-cancelable animation when the proc occurs.

For me it's not a question of over-performing or not, any armor that does direct damage is just a bad idea. Damage should be player initiated for competitive PvP. Armor sets that increase damage potential are fine, because the player has to make use of that potential.
Sadly, ZOS disagrees with this philosophy.

Would a full length animation alleviate your conserns? It would eliminate an ability that the attacker could cast and would essentially make the proc replace the next ability. There needs more ways to build for damage than just stacking weapon/spell damage. Proc sets have a place IMO.

Joy_Division

Rickter wrote: »

As someone who has experienced the "Jodi" duo in BGs, I 100% agree with the OP.

I refuse to wear proc sets in pvp. and I pay for it. its a choice. "self regulation" as you put it. Hopefully ZOS will take action soon. I know they have the capability. it took them less than a week to nerf high hp shield spamming Dragonknight PvE tanks so i would like to see this at the very least acknowledged in writing that the proc sets are over performing.

Of course they have the capbility.

But if it's not a grind spot that gives too much XP too fast (ZoS will immediately pounce upon this) or new PvE content they feel is undermined, they will wait a half a year before even trying to address stuff.

And I emphasize the whole try thing because we have had this exact same issue with proc sets going on nearly a year now, still here despite their previous "fix".

Sandman929

akray21 wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

Which proc sets would every one say are over preforming? Because it's definitely not all of them. For example no one is complaining about Poisonous Serpent, Sunderflame, Affliction, Ice Furnace, Way of Fire, Grothdar, Iceheart, Ilambris, Infernal Guardian, Kra'gh, Maw of the Infernal, Nerien'eth, Sellistrix, Spawn of Mephala, and Stormfist.

Some of the sets being complained about that are not OP, like Selen's and Velidreth (both these procs ars easily dodge-able).

The sets that are OP are only slightly over preforming and are not as bad as most here claim. I believe the following sets need a slight tune down... Viper, Red Mountain, Valkyn Skoria, and Tremorscale. The main offenders are Viper and Red Mountain because they deal large damage and are easy to proc. The best way to balance these is to add additional requirements to proc.

If ZOS is lazy and wants to go with a blanket change, I think the best thing to do is add a .5 - .9 second un-cancelable animation when the proc occurs.

For me it's not a question of over-performing or not, any armor that does direct damage is just a bad idea. Damage should be player initiated for competitive PvP. Armor sets that increase damage potential are fine, because the player has to make use of that potential.
Sadly, ZOS disagrees with this philosophy.

Would a full length animation alleviate your conserns? It would eliminate an ability that the attacker could cast and would essentially make the proc replace the next ability. There needs more ways to build for damage than just stacking weapon/spell damage. Proc sets have a place IMO.

No, because the idea of armor doing damage is ridiculous to me and goes against competitive play. The fact that there needs to be more to damage than just weapon/spell damage is a separate issue that can be solved in other ways. Armor proc'ing opportunity rather than damage is one way. Penetration increases, vulnerability increases, stat increases, healing increases, healing debuffs, crit debuffs/buffs....windows of increased potential that the player needs to take advantage of promote competition and skillful play.
Flat damage procs don't.

akray21

Sandman929 wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

Which proc sets would every one say are over preforming? Because it's definitely not all of them. For example no one is complaining about Poisonous Serpent, Sunderflame, Affliction, Ice Furnace, Way of Fire, Grothdar, Iceheart, Ilambris, Infernal Guardian, Kra'gh, Maw of the Infernal, Nerien'eth, Sellistrix, Spawn of Mephala, and Stormfist.

Some of the sets being complained about that are not OP, like Selen's and Velidreth (both these procs ars easily dodge-able).

The sets that are OP are only slightly over preforming and are not as bad as most here claim. I believe the following sets need a slight tune down... Viper, Red Mountain, Valkyn Skoria, and Tremorscale. The main offenders are Viper and Red Mountain because they deal large damage and are easy to proc. The best way to balance these is to add additional requirements to proc.

If ZOS is lazy and wants to go with a blanket change, I think the best thing to do is add a .5 - .9 second un-cancelable animation when the proc occurs.

For me it's not a question of over-performing or not, any armor that does direct damage is just a bad idea. Damage should be player initiated for competitive PvP. Armor sets that increase damage potential are fine, because the player has to make use of that potential.
Sadly, ZOS disagrees with this philosophy.

Would a full length animation alleviate your conserns? It would eliminate an ability that the attacker could cast and would essentially make the proc replace the next ability. There needs more ways to build for damage than just stacking weapon/spell damage. Proc sets have a place IMO.

No, because the idea of armor doing damage is ridiculous to me and goes against competitive play. The fact that there needs to be more to damage than just weapon/spell damage is a separate issue that can be solved in other ways. Armor proc'ing opportunity rather than damage is one way. Penetration increases, vulnerability increases, stat increases, healing increases, healing debuffs, crit debuffs/buffs....windows of increased potential that the player needs to take advantage of promote competition and skillful play.
Flat damage procs don't.

Well.. as of right now there isn't even a "competitive" PvP mode in this game right now. BGs don't have skill based match making with rankings, and most of the time teams are even imbalanced numbers wise. Proc sets will exist in this game as long as it lives, that's their design, so we need to figure out a way to make them work for everyone by still being viable, but not OP.

Anti_Virus

Sandman929 wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

Which proc sets would every one say are over preforming? Because it's definitely not all of them. For example no one is complaining about Poisonous Serpent, Sunderflame, Affliction, Ice Furnace, Way of Fire, Grothdar, Iceheart, Ilambris, Infernal Guardian, Kra'gh, Maw of the Infernal, Nerien'eth, Sellistrix, Spawn of Mephala, and Stormfist.

Some of the sets being complained about that are not OP, like Selen's and Velidreth (both these procs ars easily dodge-able).

The sets that are OP are only slightly over preforming and are not as bad as most here claim. I believe the following sets need a slight tune down... Viper, Red Mountain, Valkyn Skoria, and Tremorscale. The main offenders are Viper and Red Mountain because they deal large damage and are easy to proc. The best way to balance these is to add additional requirements to proc.

If ZOS is lazy and wants to go with a blanket change, I think the best thing to do is add a .5 - .9 second un-cancelable animation when the proc occurs.

For me it's not a question of over-performing or not, any armor that does direct damage is just a bad idea. Damage should be player initiated for competitive PvP. Armor sets that increase damage potential are fine, because the player has to make use of that potential.
Sadly, ZOS disagrees with this philosophy.

Would a full length animation alleviate your conserns? It would eliminate an ability that the attacker could cast and would essentially make the proc replace the next ability. There needs more ways to build for damage than just stacking weapon/spell damage. Proc sets have a place IMO.

No, because the idea of armor doing damage is ridiculous to me and goes against competitive play. The fact that there needs to be more to damage than just weapon/spell damage is a separate issue that can be solved in other ways. Armor proc'ing opportunity rather than damage is one way. Penetration increases, vulnerability increases, stat increases, healing increases, healing debuffs, crit debuffs/buffs....windows of increased potential that the player needs to take advantage of promote competition and skillful play.
Flat damage procs don't.

Exactly this never played a game where your armor literally did the work for you this is a joke.

GreenSoup2HoT

@akray21 Disagree. Grotharr and Infernal Guardian wreck my vamp stamblade. Grotharr keeps me out of cloak and if i get cc'd when Infernal procs im probably also dead. Fire damage sucks man

akray21

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@akray21 Disagree. Grotharr and Infernal Guardian wreck my vamp stamblade. Grotharr keeps me out of cloak and if i get cc'd when Infernal procs im probably also dead. Fire damage sucks man

I understand as I have a vamp Templar...
But you have the build choice of being a vamp. Grothdar is hard to proc at the right time and can be countered by moving out of the very short duration AoE. For Infernal Guardian, you can't easily pick who it hits, and can roll dodge or get out of the blast. This is why I like these two sets, they are harder to proc than X chance on all hits, and there is counterplay.

KingYogi415

Rickter wrote: »

As someone who has experienced the "Jodi" duo in BGs, I 100% agree with the OP.

I refuse to wear proc sets in pvp. and I pay for it. its a choice. "self regulation" as you put it. Hopefully ZOS will take action soon. I know they have the capability. it took them less than a week to nerf high hp shield spamming Dragonknight PvE tanks so i would like to see this at the very least acknowledged in writing that the proc sets are over performing.

They are performing as intented.

This is ZoS "raising the floor."

Even though I see the logic behind making this thread, Streamers having procgasms and writing long love letters to viper is only going to make this happen faster.

rimmidimdim

Rianai wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

Some of the sets being complained about that are not OP, like Selen's and Velidreth (both these procs ars easily dodge-able).

Veli and Selene can't be dodged when they proc while you get cc'ed, which happens a lot. Also sometimes the dmg from selene tends to hit before the actual animation goes of, leaving no time to react. Veli is only easy to avoid at range. And even if you dodge them it means you have to spend resurces on something that is free for the enemy.

Imo those two sets are by far the most problematic, because the dmg is so huge. They hit harder than most abilities, including ults, and it is pure rng, when they go off.

If you get cc'd as they proc, that's good timing and good playing by the "offender". I think that part is fine.

Draekony

honestly im running it in hopes they nerf so i can go back to a more fun balanced build that isnt a glass cannon

Rianai

rimmidimdim wrote: »

If you get cc'd as they proc, that's good timing and good playing by the "offender". I think that part is fine.

There is no good timing involved, because the attacker has no control over the procs. It is pure RNG, that decides those fights and that's stupid. I had fights against players that can kill me from stealth with cc + procs before i have a chance to react, but if the procs don't go off right when they open on me, they stand no chance, because they have no clue how to actually fight and they rely 100% on their armor to do the job. It's just sad.

Czirne

Well it seems like Battlegrounds balanced themself on their own - you either run full proc sets with medium armor, or super tanky build that can be killed only with proc sets.

meh

Rickter

Czirne wrote: »

Well it seems like Battlegrounds balanced themself on their own - you either run full proc sets with medium armor, or super tanky build that can be killed only with pro sets.

meh

I want you all to please revist THIS THREAD. I would like to draw special attention to the overwhelming "BGs are going to be awesome" poll results. On page 7 the elitist attempt of dismissal of "BGs are under NDA so stop talking about it"

The writing was on the wall and anyone with half a brain could see how BGs were going to go based off the patch notes.

All the doom saying too, that Cyrodiil was going to die LOL - I have literally seen practically every single person who said they were going to quit ESO, BACK IN ESO!!

Stay in BGs long enough and you will see the who's who of ESO pvp. ESO PvP is more alive and well than it has ever been. even deltia is back even though he said he would QUIT.

akray21

Rickter wrote: »

Czirne wrote: »

Well it seems like Battlegrounds balanced themself on their own - you either run full proc sets with medium armor, or super tanky build that can be killed only with pro sets.

meh

I want you all to please revist THIS THREAD. I would like to draw special attention to the overwhelming "BGs are going to be awesome" poll results. On page 7 the elitist attempt of dismissal of "BGs are under NDA so stop talking about it"

The writing was on the wall and anyone with half a brain could see how BGs were going to go based off the patch notes.

All the doom saying too, that Cyrodiil was going to die LOL - I have literally seen practically every single person who said they were going to quit ESO, BACK IN ESO!!

Stay in BGs long enough and you will see the who's who of ESO pvp. ESO PvP is more alive and well than it has ever been. even deltia is back even though he said he would QUIT.

Deltia said he would be back as a casual, which so far he is.

Derra

@Rickter BGs haven´t failed so far - people can´t even queue with groups. A feature has to work before it can fail

Rickter

Derra wrote: »

@Rickter BGs haven´t failed so far - people can´t even queue with groups. A feature has to work before it can fail

lol I'd have to agree. 1 hour 22 minutes - 3 games. "You or someone in your group declined the invitation"

but you know, its awesome.

Otiz

Maybe its the "No cp" maybe its the procs, and maybe its a combination - but I for one fkn enjoy that people actually die.
Stupid tankability on everyone and their mother is far worse than this proc set meta.

I agree with all the points being made against proc sets, but I sure as sht... would be remissed if I didn't enjoy the current pacing of combat + the fact that stamNB has a place in the game.

If proc sets are brought Down, sorcs and vagdk's will dominate unless other changes follow, heck Ill throw in templar with their PoL as well.

akray21

Otiz wrote: »

Maybe its the "No cp" maybe its the procs, and maybe its a combination - but I for one fkn enjoy that people actually die.
Stupid tankability on everyone and their mother is far worse than this proc set meta.

I agree with all the points being made against proc sets, but I sure as sht... would be remissed if I didn't enjoy the current pacing of combat + the fact that stamNB has a place in the game.

If proc sets are brought Down, sorcs and vagdk's will dominate unless other changes follow, heck Ill throw in templar with their PoL as well.

I personally would prefer 30 second fights over 3 second fights, or even 60 second fights, but that's just me.

Moglijuana

Otiz wrote: »

Maybe its the "No cp" maybe its the procs, and maybe its a combination - but I for one fkn enjoy that people actually die.
Stupid tankability on everyone and their mother is far worse than this proc set meta.

I agree with all the points being made against proc sets, but I sure as sht... would be remissed if I didn't enjoy the current pacing of combat + the fact that stamNB has a place in the game.

If proc sets are brought Down, sorcs and vagdk's will dominate unless other changes follow, heck Ill throw in templar with their PoL as well.

VAGDK 4 LYFE

Waffennacht

Rickter wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

@Rickter BGs haven´t failed so far - people can´t even queue with groups. A feature has to work before it can fail

lol I'd have to agree. 1 hour 22 minutes - 3 games. "You or someone in your group declined the invitation"

but you know, its awesome.

Omg yes! I swear I'm gonna find whom ever declines the BGs .... And ... I'll leave them a nasty message lmfao

Derra

Waffennacht wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

@Rickter BGs haven´t failed so far - people can´t even queue with groups. A feature has to work before it can fail

lol I'd have to agree. 1 hour 22 minutes - 3 games. "You or someone in your group declined the invitation"

but you know, its awesome.

Omg yes! I swear I'm gonna find whom ever declines the BGs .... And ... I'll leave them a nasty message lmfao

it´s 100% zos to blame.

Gina actually posted that it´s intended behavior for 11 people to drop out of grp forming when 1 player declines. It should be that players grp dropping or even only that player.

Azrael01

Jules wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

I think the simplest solution without upsetting pve is to just add a line "this effect is reduced by X in pvp environments" to all proc sets.

i refuse to use them and after encountering your buddy jordaen last night, i hung up the guns for this game.

I mean I get what youre saying. but im not going to deflate footballs just to stay competitive. I wouldnt take your stance personally, id rally my fans against and plau without them. But i get you, just like i get why you did the things you've done back when zazeer was playing...

did you just imply I use/d cheat engine? lol

Can confirm used cheat engine

Dottzgaming

Jules wrote: »

It's pretty clear procs are overperforming in BG's.
Viper is on nearly every stam build in under a week with 0 skillful counterplay available.

How many years has this community been forced to self regulate?
Instead of relying on ZOS to fix broken, imbalanced mechanics and sets, we've become so accustomed to holding ourselves back from things that are "meta" or "cheese" - LIKE proc sets, LIKE heavy armor, LIKE whatever class is best at the time. The problem with a community self regulating is that only half the community is willing to do this. And as time goes on, more people get frustrated - more people jump to the dark side. Eventually, the entire experience is completely diluted and theorycrafting anything outside this meta is worthless. Build homogenization. Boring PVP with lack of counterplay.

We should not have to self regulate this time.
It's time we look to ZOS to fix what is clearly broken and overperforming instead of trying to force ourselves away from sets that are imbalanced, and yet somehow optimal.

This proc meta is only in its baby stages and viper is already on nearly every death recap of every person I talk to.
It's time ZOS gets in front of this impending meta and fix it before it breaks the integrity of BGs, and ruins their promising growth.

Love this so much.

The proc sets are EXTREMELY frustrating to play against. It's so hard to theorycraft and come up with unique builds because your are neutering yourself by NOT playing with proc sets. You have less damage, less sustain, less everything. Proc sets give people TONS of free damage for literally just freaking showing up. No skill. No thinking. Just free damage. It's like a participation trophy. You showed up? FANTASTIC! HERE IS FREE DAMAGE!

This is honestly so poisonous to the battlegrounds and the no cp meta. the reason, now more than ever, that this needs to be fixed now rather than later is because you just had alot of new and returning players come back to the game. How wonderful do you think theyre going to feel walking into a bg getting 2 shot because two gear sets procced at the same time on an ability?