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Skill Point Exploit & Account Suspensions
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f047ys3v3n✭✭✭✭✭
✭This bug is hilarious. So pervasive that people are exploiting it without even knowing yet a 3 day ban is being issued for it. Lol.
You know, cheat engine has been running amok for more than a year know and that is actually causing a massive player power imbalance not just saving players a few extra hours they would have to spend running about picking up skyshards for their new wardens.
This is really a minor exploit that it seems the removal of ill gotten skill points is more than sufficient to remedy given that players would then have effectively been punished with wasted time in proportion to how much they exploited it. All this from a ZOS with a history of letting the dupe buggers and survey buggers keep their gains despite the economic consequences of that. If I had purchased the new content I would probably have been one of the exploiters and I certainly would be surprised to even have to give back the skill points, let alone have actual punishment.
Oh well, ultimately it is a pretty minor punishment. Hopefully it signals a new, more robust, enforcement policy where cheat engine users will be found and banned. I suspect it was just easy to do though and really signals nothing beyond the anger ZOS feels due embarrassment at such an obvious and pervasive bug. Rule 1, never embarrass ZOS, it will end badly for you.I am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭White wabbit wrote: »Lord_Draevan wrote: »Gruffysb16_ESO wrote: »Lord_Draevan wrote: »As I have posted many times in other threads about exploiting I feel ZOS would do well to adopt a strike system (if not already) to make sure first time offended who may not know better learn, but repeat offenders are eventually removed from the game.
What I'd suggest:
1st strike: 1 month account ban
2nd strike: 3 month account ban
3rd strike: Permaban the account
Yeah but that's just stupid, isn't it. In this instance you wouldn't know you had commented an exploit until you had actually done it and all you actually would have done is to kill a boss at the end of a dungeon....1 month ban for that.
True, it would help if ZOS posts (either on the forums on the ESO website) what is an exploit when they find it.
Example, "Doing action X is an exploit. As of June 2nd, anyone caught doing it will be considered an exploiter and banned accordingly."
Surly by now people should know you only get one skill point from a group dungeon , so when they were getting 2 3 4 skill points they should have know this wasn't right , so I see no excuselordrichter wrote: ».LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »
The issue and the reason a ToS exists is because not all bugs can be foreseen and fixed instantly. You have to remember there are groups who go on PTS to find issues, don't report them then abuse in the live game.LiquidPony wrote: »
This is the procedure for almost every other MMO, there are clear ToS rules stating you are not to exploit bugs if encountered.Will punishments be worse if any of these people were repeat offenders?
As I feel whilst this issue was reversible the fact we often see suspensions only leads people to promote exploiting, cash out before the suspension, take a suspension and enjoy the rewards still.
As I have posted many times in other threads about exploiting I feel ZOS would do well to adopt a strike system (if not already) to make sure first time offended who may not know better learn, but repeat offenders are eventually removed from the game.
No. Just No.
Repeat offenders should not be removed from the game. As long as it is game expirienced-related the punishments should stay ingame related and not account related.
Suspending someone from the game permanently is never to take in action just because someone abusing a bug in game. Permanently bans are reserved for Bots and system hacks ONLY.
The issue we have with ESO and exploiting is that because ZOS has rarely ever made a harsh stance we literally see people telling one another to abuse bugs on the forums and have active groups within the game which find them and abuse for massive gains yet face only a temporary suspension.
I've been banging on about this for over a year now linking the same old information again and again. If ZOS wants ESO to have a reputation of a fair and competitive online game then they need to start taking actual actions against people who continuously exploit bugs for advantages in the game.
Here are some examples to prove I am not just touting rubbish.
https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/suspension-and-ban-policy/
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-conduct-breaches-outcomes/
http://www.playonline.com/ff11eu/rule/manner05.html?pageID=manner
Maybe I'm a jerk, but, I feel like a more reasonable solution to this problem would be ... fix the bugs? Invest in a competent QA team? Hold the developers responsible for consistently releasing bug-riddled code that never gets fixed?
It just seems to me that if ZOS "wants ESO to have a reputation of a fair and competitive online game," then they should produce a game that isn't a donkey show of bugs, crashes, and lag.
Stuff like this leading to permabans would be a great way to let ESO rest in pepperoni. I've spent many an evening grinding Public Dungeons for various purposes (guild events, gear farm, gold farm, etc.).
ToS which gives a company freedom to suspend or ban due to unforeseen bugs. It should only lead to a perma ban if a player constantly after one or two strikes continues to exploit bugs.
If you find a bug which can be exploited, report it, don't use it, don't get banned. It's that simple.
My point is that bugs like this one can easily be accidentally "exploited" by people who had no ill intent.
And there are other bugs that are "exploited" to work around broken content that can't be played otherwise.
And there are many potential bugs that are, by some definition, being "exploited" in competitive end-game content ... but of course we have no idea if those are actually bugs that we are exploiting or intentional mechanics.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that it cuts both ways. People should be banned for repeatedly exploiting known bugs, but ZOS should do a better job of communicating the existence of those bugs and then fixing them. The sheer number of bugs and exploits in this game is astounding.
If ZOS wants this to be a fair and competitive online game, the buck starts and stops with ZOS. Putting all of the blame on players, especially in cases like this, just allows ZOS to continue raking in cash for delivering broken content.
well yes, it can.
But an easy way to distinguish this is when someone gains 2 or 3 skill points like that and when someone other one gains 20 skill points farming this location for few hours, right?
lol, you think ZOS is capable of "easily distinguishing" the difference between exploiters and people who accidentally ran into a bug?
This thread is proof that they are not.
I am sometimes amazed that this company managed to deliver a game that works at all.
This thread is anecdotal, and nothing more. ZOS is cagey about the actual exploit and has, apparently, not even told the people who were suspended exactly what they did, where, and when. On top of that, we only have the word of the people reporting as to what they did. Not that I want to call people liars, but it is not like they can provide proof to us.
That said, I believe they probably have a problem where they are banning for unintentional infringement, and possibly even well-intentioned infringement (for reporting purposes). I just have no proof.
I do expect they will make it right for those people, though.
I am 100% comfortable siding with players over ZOS on this issue. When you have community ambassadors and well-known players like Woeler (content creator and mod of /r/elderscrollsonline) giving the anecdotes, I would say it's pretty safe to conclude that ZOS dun goofed.
ZOS being "cagey" about the exploit is exactly the problem. I expect they'll "make it right" for the people who were unjustly banned by sending them 500 free Crowns on Monday when the ban-period is over and we'll never hear another peep from ZOS about this. They'll just bury their heads in the sand.2 -
Juli'St✭✭✭✭Those who use their exploits in a conscientious manner deserve punishment.
END.
...this is so simple.Edited by Juli'St on June 2, 2017 2:48PM2 -
sdtlc✭✭✭✭✭The ban for more than one gained skillpoint is just overreacted, message remove skillpoint, done.
Gained more than several skillpoints, ban removal, done.
But it would require more work than a flatout onelined filterrule and of to the weekend.Die Qualität verhält sich nicht zwingend proportional zur Masse...
Meisterangler vor dem perfekten Rogen...
+Kaiserstadt, Wrothgar, Hew's Fluch, Goldküste, Vvardenfell, Stadt der Uhrwerke, Sommersend, Artaeum, Trübmoor, Elsweyr (nördliches & südliches), Graumoor, Reik, Dunkelforst
[PC][DC]Zunft der Helden[PvX]
Feierabendgilde mit Ambitionen1 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭Those who use their exploits in a conscientious manner deserve punishment.
END.
...this is so simple.
Wtf is this
How about all the players who were unaware of the exploit? Or the ones who found out about it and reported it right away? They got hit with the suspension too.
U arent providing anything constructive here.7 -
Trashkan✭✭✭I got extra skill points for sell!!! As in in all my toons I always have 10 to 20 saved for new skills in certain situations.Edited by Trashkan on June 2, 2017 3:01PM0
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out51d3r✭✭✭✭Has there been a single report of anybody that received a friendly "you seem to have gained an extra skill point, we've removed the point and reset your skills" type message? Or did they accuse literally every single person that gained an extra skill point from this of cheating?2
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Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »I'm so glad I didn't pre order Marrowind and accidentally get banned . Being a cheap skate pays off once again .
same here...
C'mon ZOS... there are worse things out there... You can't punish exploiters (that exploit your own mistakes) while keeping CE accounts making PvP worst than ever..Edited by Xvorg on June 2, 2017 3:08PMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique2 -
Juli'St✭✭✭✭Those who use their exploits in a conscientious manner deserve punishment.
END.
...this is so simple.
Wtf is this
How about all the players who were unaware of the exploit? Or the ones who found out about it and reported it right away? They got hit with the suspension too.
U arent providing anything constructive here.
ZOS would have no reason to suspend people without first investigating - I hope.0 -
Br1ckst0n✭✭✭Alpha-Lupi wrote: »I would recommend closing this thread to ensure that it does not get out of hand.
[snip] Face the problems, dont run away from them!
[Edit to remove bait.]Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on June 3, 2017 12:40AMOfftank of the year 20161 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭IHas there been a single report of anybody that received a friendly "you seem to have gained an extra skill point, we've removed the point and reset your skills" type message? Or did they accuse literally every single person that gained an extra skill point from this of cheating?
Not for me. Got banned and came here. Thats how i found out why i was banned. The support tech didnt explain anything and insta closed my ticket.4 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭Those who use their exploits in a conscientious manner deserve punishment.
END.
...this is so simple.
Wtf is this
How about all the players who were unaware of the exploit? Or the ones who found out about it and reported it right away? They got hit with the suspension too.
U arent providing anything constructive here.
ZOS would have no reason to suspend people without first investigating - I hope.
We are talking about a boss thats part of a 4 boss rotation within 50ft of each other. Just hitting this boss twice in the rotation (which is obviously a normal thing when gear farming) will net u a suspention before u realized u did anything wrong.2 -
Arch_White✭✭Has there been a single report of anybody that received a friendly "you seem to have gained an extra skill point, we've removed the point and reset your skills" type message? Or did they accuse literally every single person that gained an extra skill point from this of cheating?
As proven by the players that messaged support after 3 skill points to say a bug was found and were still suspended, no not a single person received a warning. Every player that gained more than one skill point was suspended and no evidence of a suspension being lifted has been shown yet.Biggest scrub EU1 -
Bouldercleave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »I'm so glad I didn't pre order Marrowind and accidentally get banned . Being a cheap skate pays off once again .
same here...
C'mon ZOS... there are worse things out there... You can't punish exploiters (that exploit your own mistakes) while keeping CE accounts making PvP worst than ever..
This didn't happen in Morrowind. It could have happened with or without the expansion. This supposedly happened in the public dungeon in Bangkorai.1 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭Arch_White wrote: »Has there been a single report of anybody that received a friendly "you seem to have gained an extra skill point, we've removed the point and reset your skills" type message? Or did they accuse literally every single person that gained an extra skill point from this of cheating?
As proven by the players that messaged support after 3 skill points to say a bug was found and were still suspended, no not a single person received a warning. Every player that gained more than one skill point was suspended and no evidence of a suspension being lifted has been shown yet.
Or even a progress report0 -
out51d3r✭✭✭✭There's a few classes of people that should have been handled differently by this:
People who have only gained one skill point from the boss: clearly have done nothing wrong, no need to contact.
People who have only gained two skill points from the boss: they have clearly done nothing wrong, but they have an extra skill point. This should be politely addressed and the skill point removed. Where are those people? I'd think there would be alot of them if ZOS was handling this fairly.
People who have gained 3-5 skill points from the boss: these people may or may not have done something wrong. Issuing a warning seems like a good idea. Anybody just get a warning?
People who gained more than 5 skill points form this. These people should be looked at for punishment. Actively looked at by a human being, not robobanned.
Edited by out51d3r on June 2, 2017 3:39PM3 -
Gruffysb16_ESO✭✭✭There's a few classes of people that should have been handled differently by this:
People who have only gained one skill point from the boss: clearly have done nothing wrong, no need to contact.
People who have only gained two skill points from the boss: they have clearly done nothing wrong, but they have an extra skill point. This should be politely addressed and the skill point removed. Where are those people? I'd think there would be alot of them if ZOS was handling this fairly.
People who have gained 3-5 skill points from the boss: these people may or may not have done something wrong. Issuing a warning seems like a good idea. Anybody just get a warning?
People who gained more than 5 skill points form this. These people should be looked at for punishment. Actively looked at by a human being, not robobanned.
People who gained more than like 20 skill points from this. Lol, roboban away.
And what about people who farmed the bosses for gear/designs and had no interest in the skill points whatsoever and also reported the bug? Should they be banned?3 -
out51d3r✭✭✭✭Gruffysb16_ESO wrote: »And what about people who farmed the bosses for gear/designs and had no interest in the skill points whatsoever and also reported the bug? Should they be banned?
Nope. If you reported it, you shouldn't get punished. That's why a person has to look at it. I probably shouldn't have left roboban as an option at all.Edited by out51d3r on June 2, 2017 3:38PM1 -
mystfit✭✭✭A friend and I discovered this (not claiming to be the first, by any means) while we were leveling our new toons and getting skyshards. Despite the fact that we reported it and left the area as soon as we realized what was going on, we both still got the banhammer
gg. Would like to know how they determined guilty parties. Skill point gain after entering this delve? I wonder how many innocent suspects are banned as they were leveling new Wardens (or new characters in general) like us and gathering shards and group event skill points.
I'm sorry you got banned. It seems like you did all the right things. Heck, I can see myself doing the same..getting the second one and not being sure..so doing a third test and reporting it right off. I guess they'd rather a bunch of people submitted reports saying..I thinkkkk..I'm not surrreee....I migggght...have gotten an extra point...heck the false reports I only would give would blow up support cause I never pay attention
2 -
ItsMeToo✭✭✭✭✭I miss my LOL Button.FYI - There is no such thing as 'night capping' in a world wide MMO.FYI - There was no paid Beta. When they launched the game the Beta was over, even if you don't think it was.FYI - It's B2P not F2P. There is a difference.FYI - It doesn't take any player skill to mash keys or buttons in this game. The ones that stay alive longer have the better internet connection and speed.FYI - The game is not broken, it still works. It just has 'bugs' that need to be fixed.Balance is a "Bad" thing.
Example: There were hundreds of Jedi and only two Sith in Star Wars. The Jedi wanted, "Balance in the Force" and they got it. Now there are only two Jedi and two Sith.
Balance is a "Bad" thing.Is the glass half full or half empty?
I say, "Get a smaller glass."4 -
out51d3r✭✭✭✭Heck, I can see myself doing the same..getting the second one and not being sure..so doing a third test and reporting it right off.
As a programmer, I can tell you that bug reports that include the steps necessary to recreate the bug are WAY more useful than bug reports that don't. @Montayva did exactly what he/she should have.
As a programmer, I can also tell you that treating people who report bugs like they have done something wrong leads to less bug reports.Edited by out51d3r on June 2, 2017 4:17PM6 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Skill points aren't rare, at all. I've got like 300 of them, and I usually have 5-10 unspent. Aside from skyshards(due to addon), I don't keep track of where I've gotten them from, and I most likely don't notice every time I get them, especially when multiple quest completions, champion points, and whatever else is being flashed in my face at the same time. For all I know I've gotten extra skill points from the same dungeon/quest/whatever myself. It's not my job to remember where those 300 skill points came from. It is completely asinine to suspend people over something like this. Fix the bug, take away any incorrectly rewarded rewards, and call it done.
Note: I didn't get suspended for this.
It's very appropriate to susuoenc accounts for 3 days due to the abuse of this glitch.
Many didn't innocently farm the skill points without noticing and I expect this banned went well behind hitting the boss a couple or three times.
Zos, great job.1 -
Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS could dampen a lot of the rumors by simple being completely transparent of what the did. No names of course, but saying how many got suspended for doing X number of times and who got a warning for doing it once or twice. Right now all we have are people claiming they got suspended for just stumbling into this bug and only doing it once or twice. We all know, the first liar doesn't stand a chance.0 -
out51d3r✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »It's very appropriate to susuoenc accounts for 3 days due to the abuse of this glitch.
Many didn't innocently farm the skill points without noticing and I expect this banned went well behind hitting the boss a couple or three times.
Zos, great job.
Keep reading the thread dude. Somebody who reported it as soon as he noticed it, and didn't repeat the bug, got suspended. He even provided evidence that he reported it and got suspended anyway. This isn't a clean ban wave, at all.
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MajBludd✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If ZOS was going to respond, they would have by now. The fact that CE users didn't get but a 7 to 10 day ban for knowingly using something to cheat is ridiculous.
Just think, if you got a suspension for this skill pt, you got about a third of the punishment the CE users got. In some cases more cause they got the ban lifted.
Also think about this. If you run into a bug again and get a suspension it will be for much longer then 3 days because you were suspended already for an issue that was clearly a problem with ZOS programming.1 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭Sorry. But i paid to play a triple A mmo title. I shouldnt have to check forums every day b4 i log in and see wat i should and shouldnt do, or wat bug zos failed to fix b4 it hit live.
I logged in. I farmed gear for my lowbie to pvp in kyne with. Was there maybe a half hour. Hit that boss along with 3 others in a 5 min rotation about 4-6 times before i left and went straight to pvp.
I was there for gear, not skillpoints. I wasnt paying enough attention bc i was too busy looking at the gear i was getting so i could go pvp asap. Regardless theres nothing wrong with farming bosses, and its not like i sat there just hitting one boss for the skillpoint, i was farming 4 bosses and this boss was one of those. i wasnt even aware i was getting the xtra skillpoints. Ive already completed all the quests from dc/ad and was in the 2nd to last ep zone. I have over 200 skillpoints i got legit but bc i soent 30min grinding gear i got suspended.
For zos' f up. Not mine.2 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭@DarkAedin off topic, but what faction do you play in bwb?
My warden is a kitty stam warden Dark Snuggles. Im a blueblood on all toons since early access. But hes already outleveled kyne... i was only in there for getting vigor to prepare for tonight where my guild starts pvp raids. But thats fkd now0