Skill Point Exploit & Account Suspensions

LiquidPony

lordrichter wrote: »

Vonbone wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

The first skill point -normal

The second skill point -hmmm interesting

The third skill point -exploiting

Any further explanation required?

Pretty clear in every game I've ever played using bugs and exploits is bannable.

Give your head a shake...

This assumes that players are aware of how Skill Points are granted in Group Dungeons and also puts the responsibility on players to cease normal gameplay because of a bug. I understand that ZOS can put whatever they want in the TOS and shift the burden of responsibility to the players.

But the world isn't black and white. Some "exploits" are more heinous than others. This one is pretty innocent and far to easy to accidentally encounter.

And thats why its only 3 days and not more (assuming they have no previous infractions)

It's still ridiculous. Just revert the skill points and, if necessary, issue a warning. No reason to get ban-happy over something that any random player who decided to kill a Public Dungeon boss twice would be guilty of "exploiting."

I just spent an hour camping a Public Dungeon event last weekend, helping a guildie farm some gear. I was browsing Reddit on my phone while intermittently throwing out Caltrops and Endless Hail. Not sure I would've even noticed I was obtaining multiple skill points until after the fact, and then it would have been a head scratcher ... "did I really have that many unused skill points? Huh. Don't remember. Oh well."

Skill points are a fairly rare commodity, so if you see you are getting them with some regularity by doing an action over and over, something is wrong. I don't know this exploit, but I have to assume there was a notification that skill points were being earned flashed in the center of the screen.

So, yeah, a 3 day suspension is not out of line, along with removal of the additional skill points, for people who they catch.

If I know ZOS, they had a threshold. It probably took more than a couple times to show up on the radar. If there was an innocent player in all of this, I have no idea how they could prove that they did not notice they were farming skill points.

Skill points are fairly rare? You must not pvp. The starter quest in the cyrodill gives you 2 points just to skip the quest. I've gotten 5 or 6 points before I realized I'd even gotten them in pvp. So rare. No.

Yes, fairly rare. Seriously. Getting 5 or 6 is nothing, and you aren't getting that every day for doing the same things.

Mojmir wrote: »

Wish I knew which dungeon so I don't go there,lol.god forbid someone accidentally ya know play the game and farm for gear.

Well, they fixed it, so I guess it is not a worry. A dungeon boss that awards a skill point does not sound familiar to me, so I have no idea where this was or how it worked. I am curious, though.

@lordrichter Public Dungeon Group Events. Kill boss, get skill point.

out51d3r

lordrichter wrote: »

Well, they fixed it, so I guess it is not a worry.

Yeah, but what about the next random bug they decide to ban people for? Might be you next time.

MissBizz

lordrichter wrote: »

Vonbone wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

The first skill point -normal

The second skill point -hmmm interesting

The third skill point -exploiting

Any further explanation required?

Pretty clear in every game I've ever played using bugs and exploits is bannable.

Give your head a shake...

This assumes that players are aware of how Skill Points are granted in Group Dungeons and also puts the responsibility on players to cease normal gameplay because of a bug. I understand that ZOS can put whatever they want in the TOS and shift the burden of responsibility to the players.

But the world isn't black and white. Some "exploits" are more heinous than others. This one is pretty innocent and far to easy to accidentally encounter.

And thats why its only 3 days and not more (assuming they have no previous infractions)

It's still ridiculous. Just revert the skill points and, if necessary, issue a warning. No reason to get ban-happy over something that any random player who decided to kill a Public Dungeon boss twice would be guilty of "exploiting."

I just spent an hour camping a Public Dungeon event last weekend, helping a guildie farm some gear. I was browsing Reddit on my phone while intermittently throwing out Caltrops and Endless Hail. Not sure I would've even noticed I was obtaining multiple skill points until after the fact, and then it would have been a head scratcher ... "did I really have that many unused skill points? Huh. Don't remember. Oh well."

Skill points are a fairly rare commodity, so if you see you are getting them with some regularity by doing an action over and over, something is wrong. I don't know this exploit, but I have to assume there was a notification that skill points were being earned flashed in the center of the screen.

So, yeah, a 3 day suspension is not out of line, along with removal of the additional skill points, for people who they catch.

If I know ZOS, they had a threshold. It probably took more than a couple times to show up on the radar. If there was an innocent player in all of this, I have no idea how they could prove that they did not notice they were farming skill points.

Skill points are fairly rare? You must not pvp. The starter quest in the cyrodill gives you 2 points just to skip the quest. I've gotten 5 or 6 points before I realized I'd even gotten them in pvp. So rare. No.

Yes, fairly rare. Seriously. Getting 5 or 6 is nothing, and you aren't getting that every day for doing the same things.

Mojmir wrote: »

Wish I knew which dungeon so I don't go there,lol.god forbid someone accidentally ya know play the game and farm for gear.

Well, they fixed it, so I guess it is not a worry. A dungeon boss that awards a skill point does not sound familiar to me, so I have no idea where this was or how it worked. I am curious, though.

@lordrichter Every group event public dungeon boss in the entire game gives you a skill point I'm guessing from this thread, that one boss (maybe more?) was giving you a skill point every time you killed it, rather than just once.

DarkAedin

out51d3r wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Well, they fixed it, so I guess it is not a worry.

Yeah, but what about the next random bug they decide to ban people for? Might be you next time.

Qft

MajBludd

What I really want to know is, do I get an achievement for this?

Lord_Hev

Montayva wrote: »

A friend and I discovered this (not claiming to be the first, by any means) while we were leveling our new toons and getting skyshards. Despite the fact that we reported it and left the area as soon as we realized what was going on, we both still got the banhammer gg. Would like to know how they determined guilty parties. Skill point gain after entering this delve? I wonder how many innocent suspects are banned as they were leveling new Wardens (or new characters in general) like us and gathering shards and group event skill points.

This is absolutely outrageous for a modern-day triple A video game development company. It is apparent that ZOS performed a BLANKET robotic ban that had ZERO thought put into it. 300 accounts, half of which were probably completely genuinely innocent new players that don't even UNDERSTAND basic game mechanics revolving around skill point gainage at the end of a public dungeon's "group event boss"


In the quoter's case, she and a friend discovered this by accident while hunting skyshards on her newly level'd EP Warden. Noticed something fishy when she acquired a 2nd skill point from the group event. Then to make sure it wasn't some odd mishap, reported it on the third time for confirmation after reviewing the findings. She submitted a DETAILED bug report as evidence with the reference order number(see screenshot) that ZOS had access to, being able to confirm with the in-game metrics that she -clearly- did not exploit after confirming multiple skill points were being rewarded.


QUOTING DIRECTLY ZOS INSTRUCTIONS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We encourage everyone to review the Terms of Service and Code of Conduct. If you’re unsure if you’ve found an exploit in ESO, please reach out to a staff member or contact Support.

So, you blanket ban people that do EXACTLY as you instruct??? This is a blatant mishap on Zenimax's part, not only should the innocent parties have their 72 hour suspensions repealed, REPARATIONS should also be included for the completely asinine and incompetent handling of this situation by Zenimax's department that handles these affairs.


Is Zenimax unable to investigate a meager 300 accounts with the technology available to a well established game development and production company? Your paying customers who support you with loyal subscriptions and crown purchases of all people who not only do the civic duty you INSTRUCT, deserve proper treatment. This is a common courtesy that we should all expect from a professional company of your caliber.


Absolutely outrageous.

out51d3r

Montayva wrote: »

A friend and I discovered this (not claiming to be the first, by any means) while we were leveling our new toons and getting skyshards. Despite the fact that we reported it and left the area as soon as we realized what was going on, we both still got the banhammer gg. Would like to know how they determined guilty parties. Skill point gain after entering this delve? I wonder how many innocent suspects are banned as they were leveling new Wardens (or new characters in general) like us and gathering shards and group event skill points.

So, this person did EXACTLY what you are supposed to do, and got suspended. You need to look more carefully at this @ZOS_GinaBruno . If this report is accurate, just a few skill points was enough to get flagged. It would be trivial to do this accidentally. There's most likely a fair amount of false positives.

Lord_Hev

out51d3r wrote: »

Montayva wrote: »

A friend and I discovered this (not claiming to be the first, by any means) while we were leveling our new toons and getting skyshards. Despite the fact that we reported it and left the area as soon as we realized what was going on, we both still got the banhammer gg. Would like to know how they determined guilty parties. Skill point gain after entering this delve? I wonder how many innocent suspects are banned as they were leveling new Wardens (or new characters in general) like us and gathering shards and group event skill points.

So, this person did EXACTLY what you are supposed to do, and got suspended. You need to look more carefully at this @ZOS_GinaBruno . If this report is accurate, just a few skill points was enough to get flagged. It would be trivial to do this accidentally. There's most likely a fair amount of false positives.

I have friends that got the extreme minimum of 2 points.... How do you even REPORT this... without getting a 2nd skill point to even be AWARE that this exists?????


ANYONE that entered that dungeon, completely innocent, is grounds for their robotic blanket ban.

Elsonso

MissBizz wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Vonbone wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

The first skill point -normal

The second skill point -hmmm interesting

The third skill point -exploiting

Any further explanation required?

Pretty clear in every game I've ever played using bugs and exploits is bannable.

Give your head a shake...

This assumes that players are aware of how Skill Points are granted in Group Dungeons and also puts the responsibility on players to cease normal gameplay because of a bug. I understand that ZOS can put whatever they want in the TOS and shift the burden of responsibility to the players.

But the world isn't black and white. Some "exploits" are more heinous than others. This one is pretty innocent and far to easy to accidentally encounter.

And thats why its only 3 days and not more (assuming they have no previous infractions)

It's still ridiculous. Just revert the skill points and, if necessary, issue a warning. No reason to get ban-happy over something that any random player who decided to kill a Public Dungeon boss twice would be guilty of "exploiting."

I just spent an hour camping a Public Dungeon event last weekend, helping a guildie farm some gear. I was browsing Reddit on my phone while intermittently throwing out Caltrops and Endless Hail. Not sure I would've even noticed I was obtaining multiple skill points until after the fact, and then it would have been a head scratcher ... "did I really have that many unused skill points? Huh. Don't remember. Oh well."

Skill points are a fairly rare commodity, so if you see you are getting them with some regularity by doing an action over and over, something is wrong. I don't know this exploit, but I have to assume there was a notification that skill points were being earned flashed in the center of the screen.

So, yeah, a 3 day suspension is not out of line, along with removal of the additional skill points, for people who they catch.

If I know ZOS, they had a threshold. It probably took more than a couple times to show up on the radar. If there was an innocent player in all of this, I have no idea how they could prove that they did not notice they were farming skill points.

Skill points are fairly rare? You must not pvp. The starter quest in the cyrodill gives you 2 points just to skip the quest. I've gotten 5 or 6 points before I realized I'd even gotten them in pvp. So rare. No.

Yes, fairly rare. Seriously. Getting 5 or 6 is nothing, and you aren't getting that every day for doing the same things.

Mojmir wrote: »

Wish I knew which dungeon so I don't go there,lol.god forbid someone accidentally ya know play the game and farm for gear.

Well, they fixed it, so I guess it is not a worry. A dungeon boss that awards a skill point does not sound familiar to me, so I have no idea where this was or how it worked. I am curious, though.

@lordrichter Every group event public dungeon boss in the entire game gives you a skill point I'm guessing from this thread, that one boss (maybe more?) was giving you a skill point every time you killed it, rather than just once.

Ah, right. Forgot that. Thanks. You too, @LiquidPony .

out51d3r

Lord_Hev wrote: »

I have friends that got the extreme minimum of 2 points.... How do you even REPORT this... without getting a 2nd skill point to even be AWARE that this exists?????

2 is WAY too low of a number to punish somebody for cheating. It would be trivial to do it accidentally.

I've been gaming with @ewhite106b16_ESO for close to 25 years. He got suspended for this. If he says he has no clue how this even happened, he really has no clue how this happened. ZOS has a serious false positive problem. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Montayva

out51d3r wrote: »

So, this person did EXACTLY what you are supposed to do, and got suspended. You need to look more carefully at this @ZOS_GinaBruno . If this report is accurate, just a few skill points was enough to get flagged. It would be trivial to do this accidentally. There's most likely a fair amount of false positives.

So it seems like anyone who got more than the intended one skill point per group event was banned. I'm guessing ZOS think that once you have killed the boss once you should be moving on to a different location then

MajBludd

Yes, it is pretty outrageous that this obviously wasn't even investigated thoroughly. If it was you probably wouldn't even have half the number suspended

Lord_Hev

This is truly remarkable. How incompetently this was handled. Can we take a moment to even consider the amount of NEW potential paying customers who purchased this game, only to innocently stumble across this and gotten 2 skill points on complete accident exploring the delve enough of a length for the group event respawn.... they got 2 skill points by accident... left the dungeon to continue questing... and probably got blanket banned like the NUMEROUS other false positives... CLEARLY NOT INTENTIONALLY EXPLOITING. These innocent players players were punished.



ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE.

Arch_White

Montayva wrote: »

out51d3r wrote: »

So, this person did EXACTLY what you are supposed to do, and got suspended. You need to look more carefully at this @ZOS_GinaBruno . If this report is accurate, just a few skill points was enough to get flagged. It would be trivial to do this accidentally. There's most likely a fair amount of false positives.

So it seems like anyone who got more than the intended one skill point per group event was banned. I'm guessing ZOS think that once you have killed the boss once you should be moving on to a different location then

I got that same reply! It's almost like they are copying and pasting the reply due to a high number of complaints. I have 3 days now to send e-mails

DarkAedin

Arch_White wrote: »

Montayva wrote: »

out51d3r wrote: »

So, this person did EXACTLY what you are supposed to do, and got suspended. You need to look more carefully at this @ZOS_GinaBruno . If this report is accurate, just a few skill points was enough to get flagged. It would be trivial to do this accidentally. There's most likely a fair amount of false positives.

So it seems like anyone who got more than the intended one skill point per group event was banned. I'm guessing ZOS think that once you have killed the boss once you should be moving on to a different location then

I got that same reply! It's almost like they are copying and pasting the reply due to a high number of complaints. I have 3 days now to send e-mails

Thats a lot nicer then mine

out51d3r

Montayva wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but world bosses don't actually give skill points, and the bug you reported occurred in a public dungeon? So, not only is their robobanner spewing out false positives, but their cut and paste support isn't even accurate?

MajBludd

So, who else thinks we get no response on this issue from ZOS in here?

ManwithBeard9

MajBludd wrote: »

So, who else thinks we get no response on this issue from ZOS in here?

You wouldnt get a response until tomorrow (6/2) at the earliest. They would need to first triple check any false positives before they make any statement regarding the issue. Then they would need to quintuple check every positive to ensure that the suspension script they ran worked as it should within proper variables.

Montayva

out51d3r wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but world bosses don't actually give skill points, and the bug you reported occurred in a public dungeon? So, not only is their robobanner spewing out false positives, but their cut and paste support isn't even accurate?

Pretty much. Maybe they class delve/public dungeon bosses as WB's too now

MajBludd

@ManwithBeard9 I'm just basing that off of the overwhelming responses they have given in the cheating and exploits post.

Kreatyve

LiquidPony wrote: »

Kreatyve wrote: »

My personal opinion is that 3 days isn't long enough, and it should be a week or longer, but that's just my opinion. Exploiters ruin so much for honest players. The devs have to stop whatever they are doing and work on a fix, and a fix is not always something that can happen right away, even if the devs become aware of it on day 1. And sometimes they have to fix things in a way that make things harder for honest players.

I don't see how anyone could "accidentally" exploit this one either. I don't have the details of this exploit, but to me "players can obtain a skill point from a single quest/location/objective multiple times" screams that it would be extremely obvious that there is a bug, which should be reported and not abused.

That's just my opinion on the matter. Do with it what you will.

@Kreatyve

So you know how Public Dungeons have "Group Events," which can involve killing a boss, which grants a skill point?

So you know how people often farm Public Dungeons for gear, or for gold, or for XP, or for guild events?

Can you see how it would be very easy for someone to complete a "Group Event" multiple times and receive multiple skill points for doing so?

Easy - sure? But the first time you notice that it's giving you another skill point - you STOP and file a bug report, or contact @ZOS_GinaBruno or do anything other than keep doing it. An accidental first time is one thing. Keeping on doing it anytime after that? That's exploiting.

out51d3r

Montayva wrote: »

Easy - sure? But the first time you notice that it's giving you another skill point - you STOP and file a bug report, or contact @ZOS_GinaBruno or do anything other than keep doing it. An accidental first time is one thing. Keeping on doing it anytime after that? That's exploiting.

People who reported it got suspended. People who didn't even notice it happening got suspended. People who gained as low as -1- extra skill point apparently got suspended.

DarkAedin

Kreatyve wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Kreatyve wrote: »

My personal opinion is that 3 days isn't long enough, and it should be a week or longer, but that's just my opinion. Exploiters ruin so much for honest players. The devs have to stop whatever they are doing and work on a fix, and a fix is not always something that can happen right away, even if the devs become aware of it on day 1. And sometimes they have to fix things in a way that make things harder for honest players.

I don't see how anyone could "accidentally" exploit this one either. I don't have the details of this exploit, but to me "players can obtain a skill point from a single quest/location/objective multiple times" screams that it would be extremely obvious that there is a bug, which should be reported and not abused.

That's just my opinion on the matter. Do with it what you will.

@Kreatyve

So you know how Public Dungeons have "Group Events," which can involve killing a boss, which grants a skill point?

So you know how people often farm Public Dungeons for gear, or for gold, or for XP, or for guild events?

Can you see how it would be very easy for someone to complete a "Group Event" multiple times and receive multiple skill points for doing so?

Easy - sure? But the first time you notice that it's giving you another skill point - you STOP and file a bug report, or contact @ZOS_GinaBruno or do anything other than keep doing it. An accidental first time is one thing. Keeping on doing it anytime after that? That's exploiting.

Its also just as easy to not notice as ur running in between farming 4 bosses that are really close together and making sure ur tagging the bosses for the loot ur trying to farm. Also. In case u didnt read above, some players hit the boss 2 or 3 times and reported it but still got hit with the ban. I myself did this only a few times as well while farming spriggan / 7th. Didnt notice till i got banned today

Kreatyve

DarkAedin wrote: »

Kreatyve wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Kreatyve wrote: »

My personal opinion is that 3 days isn't long enough, and it should be a week or longer, but that's just my opinion. Exploiters ruin so much for honest players. The devs have to stop whatever they are doing and work on a fix, and a fix is not always something that can happen right away, even if the devs become aware of it on day 1. And sometimes they have to fix things in a way that make things harder for honest players.

I don't see how anyone could "accidentally" exploit this one either. I don't have the details of this exploit, but to me "players can obtain a skill point from a single quest/location/objective multiple times" screams that it would be extremely obvious that there is a bug, which should be reported and not abused.

That's just my opinion on the matter. Do with it what you will.

@Kreatyve

So you know how Public Dungeons have "Group Events," which can involve killing a boss, which grants a skill point?

So you know how people often farm Public Dungeons for gear, or for gold, or for XP, or for guild events?

Can you see how it would be very easy for someone to complete a "Group Event" multiple times and receive multiple skill points for doing so?

Easy - sure? But the first time you notice that it's giving you another skill point - you STOP and file a bug report, or contact @ZOS_GinaBruno or do anything other than keep doing it. An accidental first time is one thing. Keeping on doing it anytime after that? That's exploiting.

Its also just as easy to not notice as ur running in between farming 4 bosses that are really close together and making sure ur tagging the bosses for the loot ur trying to farm. Also. In case u didnt read above, some players hit the boss 2 or 3 times and reported it but still got hit with the ban. I myself did this only a few times as well while farming spriggan / 7th. Didnt notice till i got banned today

In those instances, I can see major issues. People who are reporting exploits and not exploiting them after reporting should be granted immunity.

SHADOW2KK

Sheey wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Will punishments be worse if any of these people were repeat offenders?

As I feel whilst this issue was reversible the fact we often see suspensions only leads people to promote exploiting, cash out before the suspension, take a suspension and enjoy the rewards still.

As I have posted many times in other threads about exploiting I feel ZOS would do well to adopt a strike system (if not already) to make sure first time offended who may not know better learn, but repeat offenders are eventually removed from the game.

No. Just No.

Repeat offenders should not be removed from the game. As long as it is game expirienced-related the punishments should stay ingame related and not account related.

Suspending someone from the game permanently is never to take in action just because someone abusing a bug in game. Permanently bans are reserved for Bots and system hacks ONLY.

Lol wonder why you are against offenders being removed from the game, oh wait....

Were you not suspended for a while?

If people exploit bugs in game, then they should be permanently banned, and rightfully so.

Hopefully It might instill more confidence in ZoS over exploitive/hacking/cheating actions.

If you are the type of player who exploits or cheats etc then you are the cancer of online gaming, no matter what genre and in other genres they get VAC/PB banned etc and good riddance to the ultimate noobs.

Play with honour or gtfo

Elsonso

Lord_Hev wrote: »

This is truly remarkable. How incompetently this was handled. Can we take a moment to even consider the amount of NEW potential paying customers who purchased this game, only to innocently stumble across this and gotten 2 skill points on complete accident exploring the delve enough of a length for the group event respawn.... they got 2 skill points by accident... left the dungeon to continue questing... and probably got blanket banned like the NUMEROUS other false positives... CLEARLY NOT INTENTIONALLY EXPLOITING. These innocent players players were punished.



ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE.

The scale of the suspensions does not match the anecdotal reports in here and the resulting fears.

If it just takes 2 skill points, and everyone who met that was suspended, are we to assume that there are only 300 people across both PC megaservers killing group dungeon bosses two or more times?

It cannot be that easy to trip across this by accident.

DarkAedin

lordrichter wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

This is truly remarkable. How incompetently this was handled. Can we take a moment to even consider the amount of NEW potential paying customers who purchased this game, only to innocently stumble across this and gotten 2 skill points on complete accident exploring the delve enough of a length for the group event respawn.... they got 2 skill points by accident... left the dungeon to continue questing... and probably got blanket banned like the NUMEROUS other false positives... CLEARLY NOT INTENTIONALLY EXPLOITING. These innocent players players were punished.



ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE.

The scale of the suspensions does not match the anecdotal reports in here and the resulting fears.

If it just takes 2 skill points, and everyone who met that was suspended, are we to assume that there are only 300 people across both PC megaservers killing group dungeon bosses two or more times?

It cannot be that easy to trip across this by accident.

Bc spriggans is a set no one farms

out51d3r

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

If people exploit bugs in game, then they should be permanently banned, and rightfully so.

This thread as en example of why that just isn't true. ZOS's enforcement is arbitrary and sloppy. That should be abundantly clear by the fact somebody who actually reported this bug got punished. Not only was that person punished, their appeal was apparently denied without any real thought.

kip_silverwolf

lordrichter wrote: »

The scale of the suspensions does not match the anecdotal reports in here and the resulting fears.

If it just takes 2 skill points, and everyone who met that was suspended, are we to assume that there are only 300 people across both PC megaservers killing group dungeon bosses two or more times?

It cannot be that easy to trip across this by accident.

But was it across all servers? Can anyone from EU confirm this?

For the record, I also reported it as soon as I realised - reported it twice actually, before leaving the dungeon, and suffered the banhammer for it

Elsonso

kip_silverwolf wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

The scale of the suspensions does not match the anecdotal reports in here and the resulting fears.

If it just takes 2 skill points, and everyone who met that was suspended, are we to assume that there are only 300 people across both PC megaservers killing group dungeon bosses two or more times?

It cannot be that easy to trip across this by accident.

But was it across all servers? Can anyone from EU confirm this?

For the record, I also reported it as soon as I realised - reported it twice actually, before leaving the dungeon, and suffered the banhammer for it

Still, if there are only 300 players on PC NA that killed a dungeon boss two or more times, and got two or more skill points, I would think they should be more concerned about why people stopped playing than skill point exploits.