Rip Nightblades (assuming they were alive at one point)

alexkdd99

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

I agree for NBs to be buffed in PVE:

ZOS vision is something like:
Templar: Healer
Dk: Tank
Nightblade: DPS
Sorc: DPS

All stam DPS are same roughly. So nb and sorc are the 2 main pure DPS classes, yet magnb is nowhere near them.

Mag Dk DPS very strong currently (better than mgnb) and they are also the best tanks.

Templar: DPS not amazing as sorc n Dk but they are main healer.

Nightblade: purely built class as DPS and they are bottom of the magdps, Logic?

Ummm that's not ZOS's vision, like at all. There's no such thing as a DPS class or a tank class in this game. Nightblade has as many damage dealing abilities as Templar. Nightblade has many group utilities. So why is Nightblade a DPS class and Templar isn't? DK has more single target DPS than sorc, and yet they are the tank class?

Didn't Gina wright the other day how dks were a tank class? Also anyone with any sense can look at the skill lines and tell which class should excel at which role.

The classes were designed with the 3 roles in mind. Saying otherwise is clearly false. Can you do other things with other classes? Sure. But that doesn't take away the fact certain classes excel at certain roles, more so than the other classes.

WalksonGraves

Rikkof wrote: »

I am sorry, what?
This is clearly a l2p issue, as the NB class IS ONE SHOTING PLAYERS IN PVP, from stealth
The ganked player cnat even react and it is dead, but i will post you videos as proof
NB is the MOST OP atm in pvp with theiur ganking, you just make these threads to derail the focus of the developers from teh elephant in teh room ( nb one shoting in pvp) to avoid nerf bat.

You got it right that it's a l2p issue, but not in the way that you think.

morrowjen

I created a Templar on a lark even though I've played stealth characters in virtually every game it's been an option. I was SHOCKED at how much better the Templar handled enemies immediately. Bosses that had given me fits early on were nothing when compared to how my Templar handled them. But what gets me is that ESO really has little room for stealth. Sure, you can sneak past enemy after enemy but sneak behind a boss and you can do zilch -- not even cause some damage which would mitigate the kill factor if ZOS were concerned with those with the blade of woe *but* for stealthy characters it should always be an option to either kill or severely damage boss NPC if you can sneak behind them. This need not apply to any class but Nightblades.

That said, since the Nightblade is so underpowered that if there's no intention of fixing things, the least that could be done is allow other classes to earn higher sneak bonuses. It should be hard to earn and take a lot of time and investment in a particular skill line but it would reward those of us invested in stealth characters without making it so that the only class is underpowered and weak. Of course, the better option is to make the Nightblade character able to hold its own.

Artis

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

1. Checkmate. PvP is a part of the end-game, your point is that there are DPS class, tank class in end-game, we were talking about the whole game, not just vet trials, we all know that vet trial's leaderboard is just a small part of the end-game. End-game: PvP, undaunted pledges (dungeons), vet trials, vMA, vet trial's leaderboard. Templar tanks do exist in end-game, alive and well, they are less effective in vet trials but they are more effective in PvP, and both DK and Templar can tank vet trials and PvP.
2. Extremely rare? Templar DDs were all over the place in One Tamriel and before that, while there are fewer of them in Homestead because sorc is OP af right now, Templar DDs still pull good DPS, and if you are going to argue that Templar's DPS is bad, I think Alcast and many great Templar DPS players will have some words with you.
3. And I said I was wrong about that particular part (DK's single target DPS) but then you continued to be off-topic, and told me that i was being off-topic. That's hypocritical.
4. Yes you do, you were bragging about how you are the "professor". See, this is your problem, you always say things like "You just wrong and I know more than you", but you haven't been able to prove me wrong at all. Templar DDs do pull good DPS, on roughly similar level as DK's DPS, it's common knowledge, unless you can prove that their DPS is bad, or are you just gonna say "Templar DPS is bad because I say so"?
The thing is that your logic is completely flawed. You think that if a class slightly outperforms others in a certain role doesn't mean other classes can't fill in that role, and yes we are talking about end-game. The fact that you are comparing Templar DPS to a DD with restro staff means that you know nothing and your logic is completely flawed. Templar DDs pull good DPS, DDs with restro staff don't. You are just embarrassing yourself with all the gibberish.
Templar tanks do exist in end-game. Don't believe? Go to Cyrodiil and try to kill thousands of Templar tanks, they are all over the place. Nightblade tanks do exist in endgame. Don't believe? Gilliamtherogue and KenaPKK will have a word with you. Sorc tanks do exist in endgame. Don't believe? Fengrush will have a word with you. DK DPS do exist in end-game. They are everywhere. Templar DPS do exist in end-game. Don't believe? Alcast will have a word with you. Checkmate. Your logic is flawed, your argument is invalid, want to prove me wrong, easy, what you have to do now is to prove that DK DPS and Templar DPS don't exist in end-game, you haven't been able to do so.

Deltia has Templar tank build for end-game. Gilliamtherogue and KenaPKK have Nightblade tank build for end-game. Fengrush has sorc tank build for end-game. Everyone (Deltia, Alcast, Gilliam etc, all of them) has Sorc/DK/Templar/NB DPS build for endgame. But guess what, all of those don't exist, according to Professor Artic. He knows more than all of these great players combined.

1. Facepalm. In PvP there is no such role as DPS. No one will let you press your rotation. And endgame that's relevant to this thread is mostly vma and vet trials. Things where performance matters. Undaunted pledged are not endgame. If there's no score to compare - then class doesn't matter and balance doesn't matter. It's like saying well 300cp complete pledges so they are alive and well in end game. NO. They are not. No one will take them if there are other options to play content where performance matters. Thus, templar tanks are not alive and well in endgame. Together with sorc tanks, anything but templar healers, etc. How funny that you didn't comment on those. And yes, templars can tank vet trials. And sorcs can. Any class can. Also templar tanks can complete quests. So what? It's all irrelevant. Just the fact that they technically can do something doesn't mean that people will bring them, because they have much better options. You have no idea what you are talking about. Also, pvp is its own parallel game, it's not the endgame. You can pvp on level 10. You can't be on trial leaderboards on level 10. You also usually don't get there under CP cap while you can pvp without CP. Does it mean that tanks under cp600 alive and well in endgame? According to your "logic"(more precisely - lack of logic) it does. Ahahahha go take a walk and think about what you're saying in future.
2. Yes, they are bad. No, now it's not 1 tamriel. A few outliers don't change the trend. And the fact is - a group is much better off with sorcs and DKs. Templar dps are MUCH more rare than dks and sorcs. See for yourself https://www.esoleaderboards.com/trial_sample.php?trial=maw&uid=1. Bonus points - find alcast there. Or see that gilliam's top score is on a dk, even though he played a nb since release.
3. No, it's not hypocritical. I keep calling you out because you are wrong. You keep typing your wet dreams about not having role-class combos. Even though the thread is about NB. But until you stop typing this nonsense, someone has to call you out on it. Besides, I got 7 awesomes out of it already - it's like taking candy from a child.
4. I'm not bragging, I'm stating the fact - you don't understand the endgame, I do. So I'm more educated. I didn't call myself a professor. I said that a freshman doesn't tell a professor to be quiet. It's called an analogy. Read some books and educate yourself. I can easily prove it to you. Follow the link I posted above and count DPS templars there. It's simple logic. If templars were as good - they would be represented roughly as much. But it's false, so they are not. Easy check: DKs pull numbers almost as good as sorcerers - and there you go, they represented almost as much. Templar and NB dps aren't represented anywhere close to those two => their dps IS NOT GOOD.

The thing is, my logic is completely flawless, I kept years studying and developing it to be that way. But you wouldn't be able to know. You need to shut up about logic after you told me to prove the negative claim and shifted the burden of proof on me, when you were the one who made an affirmative claim. This paragraph is another evidence. You're saying templar DDs pull good numbers and resto staff DD don't as if it was an absolute value that needs to be reached. But it's not true, it's relative. And how do you define good? Good = in top X%. And top X% dps parses are reached by sorcs and DKs far far more often than templars.

This is utter nonsense. Cyrodiil is irrelevant here. What sorc tanks? There are no tanks in that sense in cyrodiil. There are tanky debuffers. They don't hold agro and they aren't tanks. IF they don't debuff, they simply get ignored. If they are tanky with the burst - they are not tanks. Open leaderboards and see for yourself. There are only DK tanks and only templar healers. there are only sorc and dk dps. There are a few exceptions but their number is negligibly small. No one cares about endgame builds that no one is taking anywhere. I saw gilliam's dps build for a nb. The best thing here is to check the link and see that his score on a dk is higher than ANYONE's score on a nb, including his.

Yes, technically everyone can do anything. BUt as long as some classes outperform others in their roles - there always will be dps classes, tank class etc.

And I'll highlight it separately again:

Your logic is flawed, your argument is invalid, want to prove me wrong, easy, what you have to do now is to prove that DK DPS and Templar DPS don't exist in end-game, you haven't been able to do so.

You really need to shut up about logic, you have no idea what you're talking about here. Even less than talking about class balance, apparently.

You DO NOT prove a negative claim. I showed you the leaderboards. They CLEARLY show that most DPS are sorcs and dks, no contest. But most importantly - the burden of proof is ON YOU to prove your affirmative claim that templar dps is "alive and well" in endgame. Which I already defined for you. So go ahead, open the leaderboards, count templar dps, dk dps, sorc dps and show that their numbers are approximately equal. And if they are not - you were not able to prove your claim while I proved mine.

Oh, also don't move goal posts (another logical fallacy from you. You reallllly need to shut up about logic). I never said someone "doesn't exist" in endgame. I said they aren't alive and well. And they are not, if others are doing their job MUCH better, which the leader boards and the ratios of classes as DPS there are an indicator of.

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Didn't Gina wright the other day how dks were a tank class? Also anyone with any sense can look at the skill lines and tell which class should excel at which role.

The classes were designed with the 3 roles in mind. Saying otherwise is clearly false. Can you do other things with other classes? Sure. But that doesn't take away the fact certain classes excel at certain roles, more so than the other classes.

And there you go. If an official zos representative said they were a tank class.....

valkaneer2b14_ESO

The Alcast video is linked on pg 4 is PTS 3.03, we are now on 3.04 where MagNB got some nice buffs. Alcast said they will be very strong in Morrowind. StamNB on the other hand... Nothing really has changed for them. Yes, they did get the light attack buffed, but it doesn't matter how fast your car is if you don't have gas to put in the tank. I have heard ZoS might be buffing Siphoning Attacks if that happens StamNB will be in a much better place.

The problem is all of these buffs while they buff the NB also buff every other class as well. Oh boy, I got 15% more damage from light attacks... But so did ever other class as well. Heavy attacks got 30% more stam, but that applies to every class too. So unless your using a heavy attack build you will be SoL when it comes to resource management. Every other class is going up while the StamNB stays where it is when you remove the buffs every class received across the board.

Grim Focus is the only real buff, but I hear it will effect MagNB more than StamNB. I hope to see @Gilliamtherogue comments on how he thinks StamNB balance will be vs other classes and specs. He's very good, and I trust his opinion. Alcast said he should be starting to put some builds up by this weekend, but who knows which ones those will be.

GreenSoup2HoT

Rikkof wrote: »

I am sorry, what?
This is clearly a l2p issue, as the NB class IS ONE SHOTING PLAYERS IN PVP, from stealth
The ganked player cnat even react and it is dead, but i will post you videos as proof
NB is the MOST OP atm in pvp with theiur ganking, you just make these threads to derail the focus of the developers from teh elephant in teh room ( nb one shoting in pvp) to avoid nerf bat.

One shots is a problem. No ganking nightblade denies that. Combat is this game isnt that great to support ganking without 1 shots though. For example, 2 if not 1 heal from majority of classes can bring you straight up to 100%. So without 1 shots, ganking is effectively not ganking since its so easy to reset fights.

Morrowwind looks really good tbh. Lots of sustain nerfs which means the damage ceiling should go down. However Onslaught may need to be adjusted.

valkaneer2b14_ESO

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Rikkof wrote: »

I am sorry, what?
This is clearly a l2p issue, as the NB class IS ONE SHOTING PLAYERS IN PVP, from stealth
The ganked player cnat even react and it is dead, but i will post you videos as proof
NB is the MOST OP atm in pvp with theiur ganking, you just make these threads to derail the focus of the developers from teh elephant in teh room ( nb one shoting in pvp) to avoid nerf bat.

One shots is a problem. No ganking nightblade denies that. Combat is this game isnt that great to support ganking without 1 shots though. For example, 2 if not 1 heal from majority of classes can bring you straight up to 100%. So without 1 shots, ganking is effectively not ganking since its so easy to reset fights.

Morrowwind looks really good tbh. Lots of sustain nerfs which means the damage ceiling should go down. However Onslaught may need to be adjusted.

Morrowind has a new CP though that reduces direct damage attacks by up to 25% would this not also affect Onslaught?

leepalmer95

valkaneer2b14_ESO wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Rikkof wrote: »

I am sorry, what?
This is clearly a l2p issue, as the NB class IS ONE SHOTING PLAYERS IN PVP, from stealth
The ganked player cnat even react and it is dead, but i will post you videos as proof
NB is the MOST OP atm in pvp with theiur ganking, you just make these threads to derail the focus of the developers from teh elephant in teh room ( nb one shoting in pvp) to avoid nerf bat.

One shots is a problem. No ganking nightblade denies that. Combat is this game isnt that great to support ganking without 1 shots though. For example, 2 if not 1 heal from majority of classes can bring you straight up to 100%. So without 1 shots, ganking is effectively not ganking since its so easy to reset fights.

Morrowwind looks really good tbh. Lots of sustain nerfs which means the damage ceiling should go down. However Onslaught may need to be adjusted.

Morrowind has a new CP though that reduces direct damage attacks by up to 25% would this not also affect Onslaught?

There also a cp that increases direct dmg..

max_only

Guys, a person who has been playing for one month got ganked. They refuse to use magelight or its morphs AND refuse to listen to other sorcerer players. Clearly nightblades are very op. All the top guilds run nothing but nightblades, and the game has only had nightblade emperors.

Clearly everyone knows that nightblades are beyond OP. cmon guys, they can hide and wait around for one person to kill, no one else in the game can crouch to hide and get a damage modifier!

Galwylin

Whoa, everybody back up! Did I understand correctly? I could throw some Hunding's Rage on my nightblade and could have been one shottting people all day long in Cyrodiil? Dammit!

makreth

An easy way to fix One shot ganking builds was to think over Ultimates. Why would ultimates work through sneak that's beyond my logic. Removing sneak dmg bonus on ultimates would be more than sufficient instead of a global removal. It just doesn't feel right to be super buffed with full ultimate and sneak gank someone with that.

hmsdragonfly

Artis wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

1. Checkmate. PvP is a part of the end-game, your point is that there are DPS class, tank class in end-game, we were talking about the whole game, not just vet trials, we all know that vet trial's leaderboard is just a small part of the end-game. End-game: PvP, undaunted pledges (dungeons), vet trials, vMA, vet trial's leaderboard. Templar tanks do exist in end-game, alive and well, they are less effective in vet trials but they are more effective in PvP, and both DK and Templar can tank vet trials and PvP.
2. Extremely rare? Templar DDs were all over the place in One Tamriel and before that, while there are fewer of them in Homestead because sorc is OP af right now, Templar DDs still pull good DPS, and if you are going to argue that Templar's DPS is bad, I think Alcast and many great Templar DPS players will have some words with you.
3. And I said I was wrong about that particular part (DK's single target DPS) but then you continued to be off-topic, and told me that i was being off-topic. That's hypocritical.
4. Yes you do, you were bragging about how you are the "professor". See, this is your problem, you always say things like "You just wrong and I know more than you", but you haven't been able to prove me wrong at all. Templar DDs do pull good DPS, on roughly similar level as DK's DPS, it's common knowledge, unless you can prove that their DPS is bad, or are you just gonna say "Templar DPS is bad because I say so"?
The thing is that your logic is completely flawed. You think that if a class slightly outperforms others in a certain role doesn't mean other classes can't fill in that role, and yes we are talking about end-game. The fact that you are comparing Templar DPS to a DD with restro staff means that you know nothing and your logic is completely flawed. Templar DDs pull good DPS, DDs with restro staff don't. You are just embarrassing yourself with all the gibberish.
Templar tanks do exist in end-game. Don't believe? Go to Cyrodiil and try to kill thousands of Templar tanks, they are all over the place. Nightblade tanks do exist in endgame. Don't believe? Gilliamtherogue and KenaPKK will have a word with you. Sorc tanks do exist in endgame. Don't believe? Fengrush will have a word with you. DK DPS do exist in end-game. They are everywhere. Templar DPS do exist in end-game. Don't believe? Alcast will have a word with you. Checkmate. Your logic is flawed, your argument is invalid, want to prove me wrong, easy, what you have to do now is to prove that DK DPS and Templar DPS don't exist in end-game, you haven't been able to do so.

Deltia has Templar tank build for end-game. Gilliamtherogue and KenaPKK have Nightblade tank build for end-game. Fengrush has sorc tank build for end-game. Everyone (Deltia, Alcast, Gilliam etc, all of them) has Sorc/DK/Templar/NB DPS build for endgame. But guess what, all of those don't exist, according to Professor Artic. He knows more than all of these great players combined.

1. Facepalm. In PvP there is no such role as DPS. No one will let you press your rotation. And endgame that's relevant to this thread is mostly vma and vet trials. Things where performance matters. Undaunted pledged are not endgame. If there's no score to compare - then class doesn't matter and balance doesn't matter. It's like saying well 300cp complete pledges so they are alive and well in end game. NO. They are not. No one will take them if there are other options to play content where performance matters. Thus, templar tanks are not alive and well in endgame. Together with sorc tanks, anything but templar healers, etc. How funny that you didn't comment on those. And yes, templars can tank vet trials. And sorcs can. Any class can. Also templar tanks can complete quests. So what? It's all irrelevant. Just the fact that they technically can do something doesn't mean that people will bring them, because they have much better options. You have no idea what you are talking about. Also, pvp is its own parallel game, it's not the endgame. You can pvp on level 10. You can't be on trial leaderboards on level 10. You also usually don't get there under CP cap while you can pvp without CP. Does it mean that tanks under cp600 alive and well in endgame? According to your "logic"(more precisely - lack of logic) it does. Ahahahha go take a walk and think about what you're saying in future.
2. Yes, they are bad. No, now it's not 1 tamriel. A few outliers don't change the trend. And the fact is - a group is much better off with sorcs and DKs. Templar dps are MUCH more rare than dks and sorcs. See for yourself https://www.esoleaderboards.com/trial_sample.php?trial=maw&uid=1. Bonus points - find alcast there. Or see that gilliam's top score is on a dk, even though he played a nb since release.
3. No, it's not hypocritical. I keep calling you out because you are wrong. You keep typing your wet dreams about not having role-class combos. Even though the thread is about NB. But until you stop typing this nonsense, someone has to call you out on it. Besides, I got 7 awesomes out of it already - it's like taking candy from a child.
4. I'm not bragging, I'm stating the fact - you don't understand the endgame, I do. So I'm more educated. I didn't call myself a professor. I said that a freshman doesn't tell a professor to be quiet. It's called an analogy. Read some books and educate yourself. I can easily prove it to you. Follow the link I posted above and count DPS templars there. It's simple logic. If templars were as good - they would be represented roughly as much. But it's false, so they are not. Easy check: DKs pull numbers almost as good as sorcerers - and there you go, they represented almost as much. Templar and NB dps aren't represented anywhere close to those two => their dps IS NOT GOOD.

The thing is, my logic is completely flawless, I kept years studying and developing it to be that way. But you wouldn't be able to know. You need to shut up about logic after you told me to prove the negative claim and shifted the burden of proof on me, when you were the one who made an affirmative claim. This paragraph is another evidence. You're saying templar DDs pull good numbers and resto staff DD don't as if it was an absolute value that needs to be reached. But it's not true, it's relative. And how do you define good? Good = in top X%. And top X% dps parses are reached by sorcs and DKs far far more often than templars.

This is utter nonsense. Cyrodiil is irrelevant here. What sorc tanks? There are no tanks in that sense in cyrodiil. There are tanky debuffers. They don't hold agro and they aren't tanks. IF they don't debuff, they simply get ignored. If they are tanky with the burst - they are not tanks. Open leaderboards and see for yourself. There are only DK tanks and only templar healers. there are only sorc and dk dps. There are a few exceptions but their number is negligibly small. No one cares about endgame builds that no one is taking anywhere. I saw gilliam's dps build for a nb. The best thing here is to check the link and see that his score on a dk is higher than ANYONE's score on a nb, including his.

Yes, technically everyone can do anything. BUt as long as some classes outperform others in their roles - there always will be dps classes, tank class etc.

And I'll highlight it separately again:

Your logic is flawed, your argument is invalid, want to prove me wrong, easy, what you have to do now is to prove that DK DPS and Templar DPS don't exist in end-game, you haven't been able to do so.

You really need to shut up about logic, you have no idea what you're talking about here. Even less than talking about class balance, apparently.

You DO NOT prove a negative claim. I showed you the leaderboards. They CLEARLY show that most DPS are sorcs and dks, no contest. But most importantly - the burden of proof is ON YOU to prove your affirmative claim that templar dps is "alive and well" in endgame. Which I already defined for you. So go ahead, open the leaderboards, count templar dps, dk dps, sorc dps and show that their numbers are approximately equal. And if they are not - you were not able to prove your claim while I proved mine.

Oh, also don't move goal posts (another logical fallacy from you. You reallllly need to shut up about logic). I never said someone "doesn't exist" in endgame. I said they aren't alive and well. And they are not, if others are doing their job MUCH better, which the leader boards and the ratios of classes as DPS there are an indicator of.

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Didn't Gina wright the other day how dks were a tank class? Also anyone with any sense can look at the skill lines and tell which class should excel at which role.

The classes were designed with the 3 roles in mind. Saying otherwise is clearly false. Can you do other things with other classes? Sure. But that doesn't take away the fact certain classes excel at certain roles, more so than the other classes.

And there you go. If an official zos representative said they were a tank class.....

There's no point arguing with you. Are you seriously trying to argue that PvP isn't end-game? Really? For real? Never heard of End-game PvP? "Oh if A doesn't appear on vet trial leaderboard it means A doesn't exist in endgame". Your definition of end-game is just BS and flawed. End-game = vet pledges (DLC dungeons HM included), vet trial (and leaderboard), and PvP. Trying to argue that vet DLC dungeons HM, vet trial not-for-score runs and PvP aren't end-game is plainly *****.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGWOVzfcbng
Templar tank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv3LdCCVyks
NB tank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnboFiFR830
NB tank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZES4RlNrfU
NB tank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d18Iha_63eI
Templar tank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udtsrx5VlTs
Sorc tank (old clip but Fengrush is currently running the updated version on stream)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPvPy9hK2VQ
Stamsorc DPS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1LDfaRHcX8
Templar DPS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCTgjvKSEaI
StamDK DPS

There are 2 ways you can do this:
1) Argue that those builds aren't tank builds/DPS builds.
2) Tell Alcast, Deltia, KenaPkk, Fengrush to go do quests with those builds, they aren't meant for end-game.

Also, I said that DK DPS and Templar DPS are alive and well, which they do. Here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8
Templar's DPS is on par with DK's DPS. People pick them less often because sorcs are OP af in this patch, Templar DDs were all over then place in previous patches.

In conclusion, there are no such thing as a DPS class, or a tank class in this game. There are classes that perform better in tanking than other classes, there are classes that perform better in DPS than other classes, but you can fill in any role as any class for end-game content. Competing for vet trial's leaderboard is just a small part of end-game.

I am not going to waste more time argue with you. You won't take help. [snip]

[edited to remove bait]

Artis

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Oranges are as tasty as apples. People pick oranges less often than apples, because bananas are delicious af in this season.

Are you even reading what you're typing?? Why do people pick DK as often as sorcs to dps then? But not templars who are "on par"? And previous patches are IRRELEVANT to the PRESENT. In present, DK and SORC are most DPS.

I am not going to waste more time argue with you. You won't take help.

[snip] You commit logical fallacies all the time. You bring up irrelevant things and a few outliers AS IF they somehow prove the trend wrong.
[snip] Also stop bringing up outdated information. You already embarrassed yourself once about single target DPS. Now you are posting almost half-year old video comparing DPS, which doesn't really prove your general point. On the contrary - it clearly shows that one class outperforms others BY FAR, therefore - that's your DPS class period. Also, again, if you actually participated in real endgame and tried to stay up to date, you'd see tons of other videos, including the ones where DK pulls those 40k as well and outperforms templar. But no, that's too much to expect from you with your conditions - OF COURSE you will make conclusions based on one outdated data point and life doesn't teach you anything. You keep using outdated videos of other people.

[snip] What you've done is a Half-assed reply, not commenting on being called out multiple times on being illogical, not commenting on logical fallacies you committed, not proving still that all class-roles combos are "alive and well" in endgame, ignoring leaderboard, etc. [snip] You think you're the first one who noticed that every class can wear anything? People who play meta went through all this, we all want to be able to do any role with any class. But we admit that it's not the case here. Not as good = not good enough = whoever is better is the X class (x=tank, healer or dps).

[snip]

[edited for flaming]

valkaneer2b14_ESO

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGWOVzfcbng
Templar tank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv3LdCCVyks
NB tank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnboFiFR830
NB tank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZES4RlNrfU
NB tank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d18Iha_63eI
Templar tank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udtsrx5VlTs
Sorc tank (old clip but Fengrush is currently running the updated version on stream)

Why are you using videos that are from the end of January PTS and try to pass it off like it was done today? Oh BTW Alcast actually released a StamTemplar vid today, he was pulling 31 - 34k.

[edited to remove quote]

jkemmery

As a longtime player with a DK main, it's kind of nice to see nightblades complaining about nerfs ...

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

Rikkof wrote: »

I am sorry, what?
This is clearly a l2p issue, as the NB class IS ONE SHOTING PLAYERS IN PVP, from stealth
The ganked player cnat even react and it is dead, but i will post you videos as proof
NB is the MOST OP atm in pvp with theiur ganking, you just make these threads to derail the focus of the developers from teh elephant in teh room ( nb one shoting in pvp) to avoid nerf bat.

Hey Buddy,

LOOK, we have discussed your point of view in other threads, and let me tell you I am pretty tolerant, but don't come to this thread sprouting the same garbage when you have little to no time in this game. When you have 3 yrs of Play time , and you actually listen to others advice, like slotting Radiant Magelight on your bar for one thing, then those that been around for a long time playing (like for example= me) will listen to you, if you do not then its a L2P issue on your part.

Because you don't have alot of people's toilet time in game (especially me, for example, since I been with the game at PC Launch), since you only been playing the game for only like a month now (you stated this in other threads) and you were wearing "GREEN" Improved armor (you stated this in a other thread as well) in a CP Campaign with max CP players who have been playing and killing others for like over 3 yrs now..

Also If you join a Max CP Campaign you better be have your "S" together (your Sets and Stuff= armor and weapons better be atleast EPIC quality) and know what you are doing or you will just get destroyed, and it won't matter if it's a Nightblade that does it..

max_only

Aren't we supposed to be mourning our nightblades in this thread?

I'm thinking of having a jazz funeral/second line through Hew's Bane in his honor.

SanTii.92

Nbs are, with templars, the most competitve pvp classes, period. nuff said.

ccfeeling

From the point of pve : nb is nothing
Most of passive skills are not developing for pve
Zos should inform in the char creating screen
It will be a painful journey

BohnT

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Nbs are, with templars, the most competitve pvp classes, period. nuff said.

Oh my this only mag sorc player argues that other classes are in a good place even though he didn't play any of the classes

hmsdragonfly

Artis wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Oranges are as tasty as apples. People pick oranges less often than apples, because bananas are delicious af in this season.

Are you even reading what you're typing?? Why do people pick DK as often as sorcs to dps then? But not templars who are "on par"? And previous patches are IRRELEVANT to the PRESENT. In present, DK and SORC are most DPS.

I am not going to waste more time argue with you. You won't take help.

[snip] You commit logical fallacies all the time. You bring up irrelevant things and a few outliers AS IF they somehow prove the trend wrong.
[snip] Also stop bringing up outdated information. You already embarrassed yourself once about single target DPS. Now you are posting almost half-year old video comparing DPS, which doesn't really prove your general point. On the contrary - it clearly shows that one class outperforms others BY FAR, therefore - that's your DPS class period. Also, again, if you actually participated in real endgame and tried to stay up to date, you'd see tons of other videos, including the ones where DK pulls those 40k as well and outperforms templar. But no, that's too much to expect from you with your conditions - OF COURSE you will make conclusions based on one outdated data point and life doesn't teach you anything. You keep using outdated videos of other people.

[snip] What you've done is a Half-assed reply, not commenting on being called out multiple times on being illogical, not commenting on logical fallacies you committed, not proving still that all class-roles combos are "alive and well" in endgame, ignoring leaderboard, etc. [snip] You think you're the first one who noticed that every class can wear anything? People who play meta went through all this, we all want to be able to do any role with any class. But we admit that it's not the case here. Not as good = not good enough = whoever is better is the X class (x=tank, healer or dps).

[snip]

[edited for flaming]

Take a look at WoW. There are 11 classes, and there are 5 of them that can become tanks: druids, monks, paladins, warriors and death knights. They are called tank classes for that reason: only them can tank. Other classes cannot tank, like at all. In those 5 classes, Druid (Guardian Druid) is the strongest and most effective tank class, does it mean the other 4 tank classes aren't ... tank classes because they are weaker than Druid? No? If you take a look at ESO, people say there's no such thing as a tank class in ESO because every class can become tank. Or you can say that all classes are tank/DPS classes, it's basically the same thing and shares the same meaning. Yes, DK is the most effective class in vet trial tanking, but it means that DK is the best class in vet trial tanking, that's it. Templar is arguably more effective in PvP, and all other classes can tank in end-game content (except for vet trial leaderboard), though being less effective than DK in PvE and Templar in PvP, just like how monks, paladins, warriors and death knights are less effective than Druid. (Same argument goes for sorc's DPS).

Garwulf

Most of the problems with this game revolve around trying to balance the unbalanceable. (I am ignoring cheats/hacks e.t.c.)

Virtually no one will ever be satisfied with the balance. Whinging and whining about their character will continue to the point where we will think that all the 'noise' is caused by a jet about to takeoff.

hmsdragonfly

alexkdd99 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

I agree for NBs to be buffed in PVE:

ZOS vision is something like:
Templar: Healer
Dk: Tank
Nightblade: DPS
Sorc: DPS

All stam DPS are same roughly. So nb and sorc are the 2 main pure DPS classes, yet magnb is nowhere near them.

Mag Dk DPS very strong currently (better than mgnb) and they are also the best tanks.

Templar: DPS not amazing as sorc n Dk but they are main healer.

Nightblade: purely built class as DPS and they are bottom of the magdps, Logic?

Ummm that's not ZOS's vision, like at all. There's no such thing as a DPS class or a tank class in this game. Nightblade has as many damage dealing abilities as Templar. Nightblade has many group utilities. So why is Nightblade a DPS class and Templar isn't? DK has more single target DPS than sorc, and yet they are the tank class?

Didn't Gina wright the other day how dks were a tank class? Also anyone with any sense can look at the skill lines and tell which class should excel at which role.

The classes were designed with the 3 roles in mind. Saying otherwise is clearly false. Can you do other things with other classes? Sure. But that doesn't take away the fact certain classes excel at certain roles, more so than the other classes.

Yes, all classes were designed with all 3 roles in mind, that's my point. Yes, a class can excel in a certain role, but it only means that class is the best in that certain role, it doesn't mean "A class = B role".

WalksonGraves

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

I agree for NBs to be buffed in PVE:

ZOS vision is something like:
Templar: Healer
Dk: Tank
Nightblade: DPS
Sorc: DPS

All stam DPS are same roughly. So nb and sorc are the 2 main pure DPS classes, yet magnb is nowhere near them.

Mag Dk DPS very strong currently (better than mgnb) and they are also the best tanks.

Templar: DPS not amazing as sorc n Dk but they are main healer.

Nightblade: purely built class as DPS and they are bottom of the magdps, Logic?

Ummm that's not ZOS's vision, like at all. There's no such thing as a DPS class or a tank class in this game. Nightblade has as many damage dealing abilities as Templar. Nightblade has many group utilities. So why is Nightblade a DPS class and Templar isn't? DK has more single target DPS than sorc, and yet they are the tank class?

Didn't Gina wright the other day how dks were a tank class? Also anyone with any sense can look at the skill lines and tell which class should excel at which role.

The classes were designed with the 3 roles in mind. Saying otherwise is clearly false. Can you do other things with other classes? Sure. But that doesn't take away the fact certain classes excel at certain roles, more so than the other classes.

Yes, all classes were designed with all 3 roles in mind, that's my point. Yes, a class can excel in a certain role, but it only means that class is the best in that certain role, it doesn't mean "A class = B role".

Beyond the lies of "play like you want" they designed a game where dk is tank, templar is heals, sorcs are dps and nbs go whee wheee whee all the way home.

So they didn't design with anything at all in mind.

hmsdragonfly

WalksonGraves wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

I agree for NBs to be buffed in PVE:

ZOS vision is something like:
Templar: Healer
Dk: Tank
Nightblade: DPS
Sorc: DPS

All stam DPS are same roughly. So nb and sorc are the 2 main pure DPS classes, yet magnb is nowhere near them.

Mag Dk DPS very strong currently (better than mgnb) and they are also the best tanks.

Templar: DPS not amazing as sorc n Dk but they are main healer.

Nightblade: purely built class as DPS and they are bottom of the magdps, Logic?

Ummm that's not ZOS's vision, like at all. There's no such thing as a DPS class or a tank class in this game. Nightblade has as many damage dealing abilities as Templar. Nightblade has many group utilities. So why is Nightblade a DPS class and Templar isn't? DK has more single target DPS than sorc, and yet they are the tank class?

Didn't Gina wright the other day how dks were a tank class? Also anyone with any sense can look at the skill lines and tell which class should excel at which role.

The classes were designed with the 3 roles in mind. Saying otherwise is clearly false. Can you do other things with other classes? Sure. But that doesn't take away the fact certain classes excel at certain roles, more so than the other classes.

Yes, all classes were designed with all 3 roles in mind, that's my point. Yes, a class can excel in a certain role, but it only means that class is the best in that certain role, it doesn't mean "A class = B role".

Beyond the lies of "play like you want" they designed a game where dk is tank, templar is heals, sorcs are dps and nbs go whee wheee whee all the way home.

So they didn't design with anything at all in mind.

You are a nightblade tank.

WalksonGraves

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

I agree for NBs to be buffed in PVE:

ZOS vision is something like:
Templar: Healer
Dk: Tank
Nightblade: DPS
Sorc: DPS

All stam DPS are same roughly. So nb and sorc are the 2 main pure DPS classes, yet magnb is nowhere near them.

Mag Dk DPS very strong currently (better than mgnb) and they are also the best tanks.

Templar: DPS not amazing as sorc n Dk but they are main healer.

Nightblade: purely built class as DPS and they are bottom of the magdps, Logic?

Ummm that's not ZOS's vision, like at all. There's no such thing as a DPS class or a tank class in this game. Nightblade has as many damage dealing abilities as Templar. Nightblade has many group utilities. So why is Nightblade a DPS class and Templar isn't? DK has more single target DPS than sorc, and yet they are the tank class?

Didn't Gina wright the other day how dks were a tank class? Also anyone with any sense can look at the skill lines and tell which class should excel at which role.

The classes were designed with the 3 roles in mind. Saying otherwise is clearly false. Can you do other things with other classes? Sure. But that doesn't take away the fact certain classes excel at certain roles, more so than the other classes.

Yes, all classes were designed with all 3 roles in mind, that's my point. Yes, a class can excel in a certain role, but it only means that class is the best in that certain role, it doesn't mean "A class = B role".

Beyond the lies of "play like you want" they designed a game where dk is tank, templar is heals, sorcs are dps and nbs go whee wheee whee all the way home.

So they didn't design with anything at all in mind.

You are a nightblade tank.

And I'm constantly being told it's not meta therefore worthless in the forums, meanwhile in game it works incredibly well and no one cares that I'm not a dk. It's not like zos designed nbs to tank they just screwed up making a dps so bad it works better as a tank.

hmsdragonfly

WalksonGraves wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

I agree for NBs to be buffed in PVE:

ZOS vision is something like:
Templar: Healer
Dk: Tank
Nightblade: DPS
Sorc: DPS

All stam DPS are same roughly. So nb and sorc are the 2 main pure DPS classes, yet magnb is nowhere near them.

Mag Dk DPS very strong currently (better than mgnb) and they are also the best tanks.

Templar: DPS not amazing as sorc n Dk but they are main healer.

Nightblade: purely built class as DPS and they are bottom of the magdps, Logic?

Ummm that's not ZOS's vision, like at all. There's no such thing as a DPS class or a tank class in this game. Nightblade has as many damage dealing abilities as Templar. Nightblade has many group utilities. So why is Nightblade a DPS class and Templar isn't? DK has more single target DPS than sorc, and yet they are the tank class?

Didn't Gina wright the other day how dks were a tank class? Also anyone with any sense can look at the skill lines and tell which class should excel at which role.

The classes were designed with the 3 roles in mind. Saying otherwise is clearly false. Can you do other things with other classes? Sure. But that doesn't take away the fact certain classes excel at certain roles, more so than the other classes.

Yes, all classes were designed with all 3 roles in mind, that's my point. Yes, a class can excel in a certain role, but it only means that class is the best in that certain role, it doesn't mean "A class = B role".

Beyond the lies of "play like you want" they designed a game where dk is tank, templar is heals, sorcs are dps and nbs go whee wheee whee all the way home.

So they didn't design with anything at all in mind.

You are a nightblade tank.

And I'm constantly being told it's not meta therefore worthless in the forums, meanwhile in game it works incredibly well and no one cares that I'm not a dk. It's not like zos designed nbs to tank they just screwed up making a dps so bad it works better as a tank.

Nightblade tanks aren't meta but they are legit tanks. Gilliam and KenaPKK both have builds for them. If NBs are not designed to tank, they won't be able to tank, like at all. They are just poorly designed so they are less effective

Shadzilla

WalksonGraves wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

I agree for NBs to be buffed in PVE:

ZOS vision is something like:
Templar: Healer
Dk: Tank
Nightblade: DPS
Sorc: DPS

All stam DPS are same roughly. So nb and sorc are the 2 main pure DPS classes, yet magnb is nowhere near them.

Mag Dk DPS very strong currently (better than mgnb) and they are also the best tanks.

Templar: DPS not amazing as sorc n Dk but they are main healer.

Nightblade: purely built class as DPS and they are bottom of the magdps, Logic?

Ummm that's not ZOS's vision, like at all. There's no such thing as a DPS class or a tank class in this game. Nightblade has as many damage dealing abilities as Templar. Nightblade has many group utilities. So why is Nightblade a DPS class and Templar isn't? DK has more single target DPS than sorc, and yet they are the tank class?

Didn't Gina wright the other day how dks were a tank class? Also anyone with any sense can look at the skill lines and tell which class should excel at which role.

The classes were designed with the 3 roles in mind. Saying otherwise is clearly false. Can you do other things with other classes? Sure. But that doesn't take away the fact certain classes excel at certain roles, more so than the other classes.

Yes, all classes were designed with all 3 roles in mind, that's my point. Yes, a class can excel in a certain role, but it only means that class is the best in that certain role, it doesn't mean "A class = B role".

Beyond the lies of "play like you want" they designed a game where dk is tank, templar is heals, sorcs are dps and nbs go whee wheee whee all the way home.

So they didn't design with anything at all in mind.

In all honesty this is a very true yet sad statement. Made me laugh at first due to your wording, then back to sadness.

Shadzilla

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

I agree for NBs to be buffed in PVE:

ZOS vision is something like:
Templar: Healer
Dk: Tank
Nightblade: DPS
Sorc: DPS

All stam DPS are same roughly. So nb and sorc are the 2 main pure DPS classes, yet magnb is nowhere near them.

Mag Dk DPS very strong currently (better than mgnb) and they are also the best tanks.

Templar: DPS not amazing as sorc n Dk but they are main healer.

Nightblade: purely built class as DPS and they are bottom of the magdps, Logic?

Ummm that's not ZOS's vision, like at all. There's no such thing as a DPS class or a tank class in this game. Nightblade has as many damage dealing abilities as Templar. Nightblade has many group utilities. So why is Nightblade a DPS class and Templar isn't? DK has more single target DPS than sorc, and yet they are the tank class?

Didn't Gina wright the other day how dks were a tank class? Also anyone with any sense can look at the skill lines and tell which class should excel at which role.

The classes were designed with the 3 roles in mind. Saying otherwise is clearly false. Can you do other things with other classes? Sure. But that doesn't take away the fact certain classes excel at certain roles, more so than the other classes.

Yes, all classes were designed with all 3 roles in mind, that's my point. Yes, a class can excel in a certain role, but it only means that class is the best in that certain role, it doesn't mean "A class = B role".

Beyond the lies of "play like you want" they designed a game where dk is tank, templar is heals, sorcs are dps and nbs go whee wheee whee all the way home.

So they didn't design with anything at all in mind.

You are a nightblade tank.

And I'm constantly being told it's not meta therefore worthless in the forums, meanwhile in game it works incredibly well and no one cares that I'm not a dk. It's not like zos designed nbs to tank they just screwed up making a dps so bad it works better as a tank.

Nightblade tanks aren't meta but they are legit tanks. Gilliam and KenaPKK both have builds for them. If NBs are not designed to tank, they won't be able to tank, like at all. They are just poorly designed so they are less effective

Any class can equip a sword and board and tank, same with equipping a resto and healing. A dunmer nb can equip a 2h and dps. Will any of those do well in a rak hm fight? No. Will they be able to complete the content? No. The main issue is the way the class skills and passives align that make dks tanks, plars healers, mag sorcs dps, and nbs node farmers. Technically yes any class can equip any weapon and do stuff, they just will be very ineffective in a lot of cases. This is why even the developers relate towards certain classes being certain roles when they talk about them. @Artis along with myself have explained this to you multiple times in a variety of ways in this thread. You can link all the youtube videos you like. Just realize that youtubers get paid on how much content they provide. So if people make a tank/heal/dps/1vx/duel/battlegrounds build video on every class/combo possible, just realize that it may not always perform that great, and they get paid on how much content they throw out. If you could keep your arguments related to how nightblades are performing, and away from trash talking other forum members that would be awesome. I do not want to have to see more posts from you that have to be edited by admins for having an obscene amount of salt.

Tommy_The_Gun

Rikkof wrote: »

I am sorry, what?
This is clearly a l2p issue, as the NB class IS ONE SHOTING PLAYERS IN PVP, from stealth
The ganked player cnat even react and it is dead, but i will post you videos as proof
NB is the MOST OP atm in pvp with theiur ganking, you just make these threads to derail the focus of the developers from teh elephant in teh room ( nb one shoting in pvp) to avoid nerf bat.

NB is fighting from stealth in PvP because it was reduced to that role by a shi* ton of nerfs. (stealth is not NB exclusive, any class can use crouch - stealth & Onslaught)
NB has simply no hopes of winning in open field. And speaking about L2P.... there are many ways to counter NB.
Remember this: Un-cloacked, spotted NB in 99% of cases is a dead NB.

And there are a lot of skills in this game to un-cloack & prevent from going in to stealth....

The real problem are sorcerers as there is no clear way / skill to counter them... Can I un-summon their pets ? No.. Can I dodge / block Haunting Curse ? No. Can I crit / pen sorcerer's shield ? No...
(again probably a L2P issue but I tried to find some simple way to counter sorcerers but with no luck so far)