What's the point of running Templar healers now? (PTS natch potes)

TheHsN

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’d like to provide some clarity on why we made some of the changes we did, specifically to the Templar. Reading about some of these changes can be a bit jarring at first, and we highly suggest you to log onto the PTS to give it a try first-hand; this may help you see how everything works together and in context.

First, we want to reiterate why we’re making these global changes to abilities and resource management (and most of this will sound very familiar if you read the PTS patch notes). Our combat system features fast-paced action where resource management plays a large part in performing effectively. Player abilities in ESO specifically do not have cooldowns for this very reason - resource management is a core pillar of the system. Due to the number of balance changes we’ve made over time, this core pillar of resource management has become trivialized in that it’s become easier than ever to have nearly infinite sustainability while still being fully maximized for damage. The overall goal here is to have a combat system that reinforces decision making and resource management.

With that being said, one of the main concerns we want to address is the worry that we’re nerfing Templars in order to make the Warden a stronger healing class, particularly by nerfing Major Mending and giving it to Wardens. We’ve made it so all classes have to meet conditional requirements to gain Major Mending. DK’s need to have their damage shields up, Wardens have to heal low health targets, and Resto Staff users have to complete a fully charged heavy attack. It’s also worth noting that we’re planning on adjusting the Warden passive, Accelerated Growth, because it’s currently too easy to keep it active for long periods of time.

If you’re worried that there’s no reason to play a Templar over a Warden, or any other class, keep in mind that Templars have a stronger single target burst heal that’s easier to aim (Rushed Ceremony), they have a faster healing spammable ability with Healing Ritual, and their Ultimate heal hits targets in a 28m radius instead of 8 meters. In addition, have also have a free heal with Repentance, can cleanse allies with the Cleansing Ritual synergy and can remove 5 effects from themselves. Rushed Ceremony is also still the strongest heal in ESO, so Templars still have a lot going for them.

Lastly, we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments. This is one of the reasons we added CC immunities to monsters; when ESO originally launched, you could knock the same mudcrab down over and over. The balance changes we made in this update are aimed at making gameplay more interesting in all areas of the game.

Again, we encourage everyone to hop on the PTS and give these changes a try in both PvE and PvP scenarios rather than just reading about the changes. Once you’ve had a chance to try everything out, we’d love to hear your feedback about what you played.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’d like to provide some clarity on why we made some of the changes we did, specifically to the Templar. Reading about some of these changes can be a bit jarring at first, and we highly suggest you to log onto the PTS to give it a try first-hand; this may help you see how everything works together and in context.

First, we want to reiterate why we’re making these global changes to abilities and resource management (and most of this will sound very familiar if you read the PTS patch notes). Our combat system features fast-paced action where resource management plays a large part in performing effectively. Player abilities in ESO specifically do not have cooldowns for this very reason - resource management is a core pillar of the system. Due to the number of balance changes we’ve made over time, this core pillar of resource management has become trivialized in that it’s become easier than ever to have nearly infinite sustainability while still being fully maximized for damage. The overall goal here is to have a combat system that reinforces decision making and resource management.

With that being said, one of the main concerns we want to address is the worry that we’re nerfing Templars in order to make the Warden a stronger healing class, particularly by nerfing Major Mending and giving it to Wardens. We’ve made it so all classes have to meet conditional requirements to gain Major Mending. DK’s need to have their damage shields up, Wardens have to heal low health targets, and Resto Staff users have to complete a fully charged heavy attack. It’s also worth noting that we’re planning on adjusting the Warden passive, Accelerated Growth, because it’s currently too easy to keep it active for long periods of time.

If you’re worried that there’s no reason to play a Templar over a Warden, or any other class, keep in mind that Templars have a stronger single target burst heal that’s easier to aim (Rushed Ceremony), they have a faster healing spammable ability with Healing Ritual, and their Ultimate heal hits targets in a 28m radius instead of 8 meters. In addition, have also have a free heal with Repentance, can cleanse allies with the Cleansing Ritual synergy and can remove 5 effects from themselves. Rushed Ceremony is also still the strongest heal in ESO, so Templars still have a lot going for them.

Lastly, we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments. This is one of the reasons we added CC immunities to monsters; when ESO originally launched, you could knock the same mudcrab down over and over. The balance changes we made in this update are aimed at making gameplay more interesting in all areas of the game.

Again, we encourage everyone to hop on the PTS and give these changes a try in both PvE and PvP scenarios rather than just reading about the changes. Once you’ve had a chance to try everything out, we’d love to hear your feedback about what you played.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’d like to provide some clarity on why we made some of the changes we did, specifically to the Templar. Reading about some of these changes can be a bit jarring at first, and we highly suggest you to log onto the PTS to give it a try first-hand; this may help you see how everything works together and in context.

First, we want to reiterate why we’re making these global changes to abilities and resource management (and most of this will sound very familiar if you read the PTS patch notes). Our combat system features fast-paced action where resource management plays a large part in performing effectively. Player abilities in ESO specifically do not have cooldowns for this very reason - resource management is a core pillar of the system. Due to the number of balance changes we’ve made over time, this core pillar of resource management has become trivialized in that it’s become easier than ever to have nearly infinite sustainability while still being fully maximized for damage. The overall goal here is to have a combat system that reinforces decision making and resource management.

With that being said, one of the main concerns we want to address is the worry that we’re nerfing Templars in order to make the Warden a stronger healing class, particularly by nerfing Major Mending and giving it to Wardens. We’ve made it so all classes have to meet conditional requirements to gain Major Mending. DK’s need to have their damage shields up, Wardens have to heal low health targets, and Resto Staff users have to complete a fully charged heavy attack. It’s also worth noting that we’re planning on adjusting the Warden passive, Accelerated Growth, because it’s currently too easy to keep it active for long periods of time.

If you’re worried that there’s no reason to play a Templar over a Warden, or any other class, keep in mind that Templars have a stronger single target burst heal that’s easier to aim (Rushed Ceremony), they have a faster healing spammable ability with Healing Ritual, and their Ultimate heal hits targets in a 28m radius instead of 8 meters. In addition, have also have a free heal with Repentance, can cleanse allies with the Cleansing Ritual synergy and can remove 5 effects from themselves. Rushed Ceremony is also still the strongest heal in ESO, so Templars still have a lot going for them.

Lastly, we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments. This is one of the reasons we added CC immunities to monsters; when ESO originally launched, you could knock the same mudcrab down over and over. The balance changes we made in this update are aimed at making gameplay more interesting in all areas of the game.

Again, we encourage everyone to hop on the PTS and give these changes a try in both PvE and PvP scenarios rather than just reading about the changes. Once you’ve had a chance to try everything out, we’d love to hear your feedback about what you played.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’d like to provide some clarity on why we made some of the changes we did, specifically to the Templar. Reading about some of these changes can be a bit jarring at first, and we highly suggest you to log onto the PTS to give it a try first-hand; this may help you see how everything works together and in context.

First, we want to reiterate why we’re making these global changes to abilities and resource management (and most of this will sound very familiar if you read the PTS patch notes). Our combat system features fast-paced action where resource management plays a large part in performing effectively. Player abilities in ESO specifically do not have cooldowns for this very reason - resource management is a core pillar of the system. Due to the number of balance changes we’ve made over time, this core pillar of resource management has become trivialized in that it’s become easier than ever to have nearly infinite sustainability while still being fully maximized for damage. The overall goal here is to have a combat system that reinforces decision making and resource management.

With that being said, one of the main concerns we want to address is the worry that we’re nerfing Templars in order to make the Warden a stronger healing class, particularly by nerfing Major Mending and giving it to Wardens. We’ve made it so all classes have to meet conditional requirements to gain Major Mending. DK’s need to have their damage shields up, Wardens have to heal low health targets, and Resto Staff users have to complete a fully charged heavy attack. It’s also worth noting that we’re planning on adjusting the Warden passive, Accelerated Growth, because it’s currently too easy to keep it active for long periods of time.

If you’re worried that there’s no reason to play a Templar over a Warden, or any other class, keep in mind that Templars have a stronger single target burst heal that’s easier to aim (Rushed Ceremony), they have a faster healing spammable ability with Healing Ritual, and their Ultimate heal hits targets in a 28m radius instead of 8 meters. In addition, have also have a free heal with Repentance, can cleanse allies with the Cleansing Ritual synergy and can remove 5 effects from themselves. Rushed Ceremony is also still the strongest heal in ESO, so Templars still have a lot going for them.

Lastly, we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments. This is one of the reasons we added CC immunities to monsters; when ESO originally launched, you could knock the same mudcrab down over and over. The balance changes we made in this update are aimed at making gameplay more interesting in all areas of the game.

Again, we encourage everyone to hop on the PTS and give these changes a try in both PvE and PvP scenarios rather than just reading about the changes. Once you’ve had a chance to try everything out, we’d love to hear your feedback about what you played.

as a PTS player.. ur changes SUCK!!! / you are destroying ur own Combat System which was going to be very good... with last patch(HS) ....now And u destroy all uniquness of all for CLASSES....
ur adressings to issues are TOO WRONG...and meaningles... Just Because u PUSH as TO PLAY UR LOVELY WARDEN CLASS i will not play it and dont buy MORROWIND ....

TheHsN

as a quastion that title asks...

YOU are NOT going to run Templar Any More

Silver_Strider

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

As for Repentance, it's now just a resource tool for Stamplar with a utility heal for the group now, which give Stamplar a small niche utility heal and I feel that's a good thing

Except it's a utility/resource tool for only ONE Templar. Only ONE Templar can benefit from it AND you need to kill something first.
Again - I ask you - when will you be in a position as a DK/NB/Sorc that only ONE will able to use their sustain tool if there are others around? All the while having the worst in-class sustain passive - a big whooping 4% cost reduction - oh boy....

Except that this has always been the case for Templar and thus is unrelated to the patch at all, so this is a strawman argument at best, and a troll post at worst. Taking the Stamina return for the group away was the best thing for Stamplars as now they no longer have to worry about the Healer using Repentance and just need to worry about other Stamplars (or Templar Tanks) using it, reducing the number of people that could screw the Stamplar by a great deal.

@Silver_Strider I don't think you understand what this skill does on live...

@Blackfyre20
You mean the skill that drains corpses and gives everyone back stamina right now? I'm well away of what it does. My argument is more towards the fact that Healers just use this ability willy nilly and at inopportune times that it could be more wasteful than helpful for the Stamina player they are trying to help. I gave up healing on my Templar because I found it distasteful but tried Stamplar and liked it enough that I just kept him and never bothered with Healing again. The problem came whenever I got into a PUG or whenever I was allowed to Raid with my Guild, that I would find that I would be at nearly full stamina when healers would repent and whenever I tried to repent when I needed it, I was SoL and had to ask for a Shard instead.

I understand that I'm 1 person out of a 12 man raid and that my opinion is not the popular one but having a skill that is literally my only means of self sustain constantly being taken away and being a dead skill on my hotbar was far more annoying and I will applaud this change and while continue to state my opinion on the matter.

Blackfyre20

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

As for Repentance, it's now just a resource tool for Stamplar with a utility heal for the group now, which give Stamplar a small niche utility heal and I feel that's a good thing

Except it's a utility/resource tool for only ONE Templar. Only ONE Templar can benefit from it AND you need to kill something first.
Again - I ask you - when will you be in a position as a DK/NB/Sorc that only ONE will able to use their sustain tool if there are others around? All the while having the worst in-class sustain passive - a big whooping 4% cost reduction - oh boy....

Except that this has always been the case for Templar and thus is unrelated to the patch at all, so this is a strawman argument at best, and a troll post at worst. Taking the Stamina return for the group away was the best thing for Stamplars as now they no longer have to worry about the Healer using Repentance and just need to worry about other Stamplars (or Templar Tanks) using it, reducing the number of people that could screw the Stamplar by a great deal.

@Silver_Strider I don't think you understand what this skill does on live...

@Blackfyre20
You mean the skill that drains corpses and gives everyone back stamina right now? I'm well away of what it does. My argument is more towards the fact that Healers just use this ability willy nilly and at inopportune times that it could be more wasteful than helpful for the Stamina player they are trying to help. I gave up healing on my Templar because I found it distasteful but tried Stamplar and liked it enough that I just kept him and never bothered with Healing again. The problem came whenever I got into a PUG or whenever I was allowed to Raid with my Guild, that I would find that I would be at nearly full stamina when healers would repent and whenever I tried to repent when I needed it, I was SoL and had to ask for a Shard instead.

I understand that I'm 1 person out of a 12 man raid and that my opinion is not the popular one but having a skill that is literally my only means of self sustain constantly being taken away and being a dead skill on my hotbar was far more annoying and I will applaud this change and while continue to state my opinion on the matter.

I mean this just makes zero sense... correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying is basically "thank you for nerfing this ability to the point that no healer will use it. I will probably be the only one with it on my bar because it is so bad, so I will be able to get stam back." So hopefully there are no other stamplars around with it on their bar and also screw everyone else in the group who could use stam during trash fights, at least you'll get it. It'll hurt your group as a whole but whatever since you still get your stam. Alrighty then.

olsborg

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, we’d like to address a couple outstanding issues that we’ve seen brought up over the past couple days. We understand many of you are upset about the change with Repentance, and we’d like to explain why we made this change. Previously, Templars were able to restore the entire stamina bar for them and their whole group. In this upcoming update, we’re really focusing on resource recovery, so this ability needed to be adjusted. Additionally, running out of resources essentially provides a cooldown into a game that is currently without one, and restoring your group’s stamina through Repentance goes against these goals. Repentance does still heal the whole group for a large amount, and additionally, has no cost to boot. Now that resources are going to be more important, free abilities are quite powerful.

Regarding Necrotic Orb and it now sharing a cooldown with Spear Shards, there are a few key differences between these two abilities we’d like to touch on first. Spear Shards is significantly cheaper and easier to target. Additionally, with the Luminous Shards morph, the Templar can also get this resource restore for himself. This change was ultimately made to make all classes viable healers in concordance with the reduction to resources. If Templars were the only healers that could restore resources after these changes, they would be outrageously superior healers, and we want all classes to be viable in some way. With that being said, despite the changes we’ve made, Templars are still the best class to heal. We just had to make some adjustments so they weren’t far beyond the other classes.

Lastly, the Ultimate ability we called out as having 28 meters is Rite of Passage, and that should’ve been 20 meters. Apologies for the typo and confusion! For what it’s worth, the Warden’s heal is only 8 meters.

I bolded parts of what you said, how about taking a look at dark exchange/dark deal. Sorceror skill for sustain. Thx @ZOS_GinaBruno

Silver_Strider

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

As for Repentance, it's now just a resource tool for Stamplar with a utility heal for the group now, which give Stamplar a small niche utility heal and I feel that's a good thing

Except it's a utility/resource tool for only ONE Templar. Only ONE Templar can benefit from it AND you need to kill something first.
Again - I ask you - when will you be in a position as a DK/NB/Sorc that only ONE will able to use their sustain tool if there are others around? All the while having the worst in-class sustain passive - a big whooping 4% cost reduction - oh boy....

Except that this has always been the case for Templar and thus is unrelated to the patch at all, so this is a strawman argument at best, and a troll post at worst. Taking the Stamina return for the group away was the best thing for Stamplars as now they no longer have to worry about the Healer using Repentance and just need to worry about other Stamplars (or Templar Tanks) using it, reducing the number of people that could screw the Stamplar by a great deal.

@Silver_Strider I don't think you understand what this skill does on live...

@Blackfyre20
You mean the skill that drains corpses and gives everyone back stamina right now? I'm well away of what it does. My argument is more towards the fact that Healers just use this ability willy nilly and at inopportune times that it could be more wasteful than helpful for the Stamina player they are trying to help. I gave up healing on my Templar because I found it distasteful but tried Stamplar and liked it enough that I just kept him and never bothered with Healing again. The problem came whenever I got into a PUG or whenever I was allowed to Raid with my Guild, that I would find that I would be at nearly full stamina when healers would repent and whenever I tried to repent when I needed it, I was SoL and had to ask for a Shard instead.

I understand that I'm 1 person out of a 12 man raid and that my opinion is not the popular one but having a skill that is literally my only means of self sustain constantly being taken away and being a dead skill on my hotbar was far more annoying and I will applaud this change and while continue to state my opinion on the matter.

I mean this just makes zero sense... correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying is basically "thank you for nerfing this ability to the point that no healer will use it. I will probably be the only one with it on my bar because it is so bad, so I will be able to get stam back." So hopefully there are no other stamplars around with it on their bar and also screw everyone else in the group who could use stam during trash fights, at least you'll get it. It'll hurt your group as a whole but whatever since you still get your stam. Alrighty then.

Considering that I ALREADY admitted in my original comment that you would need to mindful of other Stamplars in consideration of Repentance, I'm going to say that you're wrong about my point. Healers no longer needing to use repentance is a good thing for Stamplars as far as sustaining themselves goes but that wasn't the only thing I stated in my original comment. I also stated that Stamplar's have been given more of a supportive niche with the changes to Repentance AND Shards, in which they can now provide a free heal to the group via repent and can provide shards as both a magic dump for themselves that provides stamina to the group as well as keeping their own stamina up due to how they changed shards to provide resources to the caster as well. The removal of Repentance as a Healer tool is a boon for Stamplars in that they now have actual utility without it being a hindrance to the group. Stamplars now have a "free" group heal, can provide Shards for the group as well as a Magplar and could actually be helpful in PvE instead of just being a DPS with 0 utility (like Stamblades currently are) because the Templar Healer has the monopoly on all the support skills.

Yes, Repentance being changed to only give stamina to the Templar is selfish but considering that Stamplar was the only Stamina Class who's self sustain ability was being monopolized by Healers was equally selfish, as well as expecting the Templar Healers to do everything in regards to group sustain. This way, Stamplar take some of the load off the Healer, get to keep their sustain tool intact (mostly) and get to help out with shards as both a means of self sustain and a boost to the group. People are only looking at the glass half empty instead of even TRYING to look at the positives of these changes.

ashenb14_ESO

TheHsN wrote: »

as a quastion that title asks...

YOU are NOT going to run Templar Any More

no nb since they get another nerf, i got 3 friend swho have been informed by their trial groups that once this patch drops their nolonger welcome in group since they will hold the group back vs other options...

good stuff though.... slower combat that takes 3-5x as long for the same mobs and same drops=alot more fun.. alot more!!!

ashenb14_ESO

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

I mean this just makes zero sense... correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying is basically "thank you for nerfing this ability to the point that no healer will use it. I will probably be the only one with it on my bar because it is so bad, so I will be able to get stam back." So hopefully there are no other stamplars around with it on their bar and also screw everyone else in the group who could use stam during trash fights, at least you'll get it. It'll hurt your group as a whole but whatever since you still get your stam. Alrighty then.

thats the exact attitude i have been seeing from EVERYBODY whos in love with these changes it looks good to them, they dont like the current combat, they want slower more drawn out fights....15-30min do to wayrest sewers for new players...screw that....it needs to take at least an hour...where 1/2 the play time is people using heavy attacks to regen..since regens are being nerfed to hell, and skills that let healers and the like restore stam...you dont need that if you just use heavy attacks for the majority of the damage you do....

im sure that everything will be much better with even more useless skills in the game, skills nerfed so hard they arent worth buying...

Silver_Strider

ashenb14_ESO wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

I mean this just makes zero sense... correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying is basically "thank you for nerfing this ability to the point that no healer will use it. I will probably be the only one with it on my bar because it is so bad, so I will be able to get stam back." So hopefully there are no other stamplars around with it on their bar and also screw everyone else in the group who could use stam during trash fights, at least you'll get it. It'll hurt your group as a whole but whatever since you still get your stam. Alrighty then.

thats the exact attitude i have been seeing from EVERYBODY whos in love with these changes it looks good to them, they dont like the current combat, they want slower more drawn out fights....15-30min do to wayrest sewers for new players...screw that....it needs to take at least an hour...where 1/2 the play time is people using heavy attacks to regen..since regens are being nerfed to hell, and skills that let healers and the like restore stam...you dont need that if you just use heavy attacks for the majority of the damage you do....

im sure that everything will be much better with even more useless skills in the game, skills nerfed so hard they arent worth buying...

This is a bold statement to make when it's actually not my reason for liking the change. I like the change because it gives more diversity in roles. Templar healers are no longer the only end game healer expanding that spot across all classes, support DPS can now be a thing without it being scoffed at as unnecessary. These are good things.

I don't agree with everything in the notes and do feel there is more room for improvement though. Such as, now that sustain is going to be more hard pressed then before, maybe tune down the cutting off regen while blocking thing. Not even a full removal but maybe just cut regen in half instead. Sorcs also need to be tuned down as they're just overperforming on all fronts. Adrenaline rush was hit a little too hard as well.

At this point it feels like I'm just wasting my breathe though since people just like to complain instead of actual try and find ways to cope with the changes

Gomumon

Silver_Strider wrote: »

This is a bold statement to make when it's actually not my reason for liking the change. I like the change because it gives more diversity in roles. Templar healers are no longer the only end game healer expanding that spot across all classes, support DPS can now be a thing without it being scoffed at as unnecessary. These are good things.

If this were the first major set if changes this game has seen, I'd agree. After a while it gets old when they don't seem to have a clear direction of what each class should be.

I do think that every class should be able to DD, heal and tank. But I don't think nerfing one so bad that all that matters is the restoration staff is the right way to do it. Instead, it would be much more interesting if each of the classes 3 skill lines were attuned for DPS, healing, and tanking, but the way they went about it was unique to their archetype. It's the attempt to homogenize every class rather than make their play style unique and have their own pros/cons that is annoying. It definitely doesn't feel like true diversity.

Templars and Wardens could have the best range, NBs have the best mobility, and DKs and Sorcs have the most potency but a really slow cast time.

I posted in another thread my ideas about each class having a different, but equal, archetypical spread.

Silver_Strider

Gomumon wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

This is a bold statement to make when it's actually not my reason for liking the change. I like the change because it gives more diversity in roles. Templar healers are no longer the only end game healer expanding that spot across all classes, support DPS can now be a thing without it being scoffed at as unnecessary. These are good things.

If this were the first major set if changes this game has seen, I'd agree. After a while it gets old when they don't seem to have a clear direction of what each class should be.

I do think that every class should be able to DD, heal and tank. But I don't think nerfing one so bad that all that matters is the restoration staff is the right way to do it. Instead, it would be much more interesting if each of the classes 3 skill lines were attuned for DPS, healing, and tanking, but the way they went about it was unique to their archetype. It's the attempt to homogenize every class rather than make their play style unique and have their own pros/cons that is annoying. It definitely doesn't feel like true diversity.

Templars and Wardens could have the best range, NBs have the best mobility, and DKs and Sorcs have the most potency but a really slow cast time.

I posted in another thread my ideas about each class having a different, but equal, archetypical spread.

You would have to make the unique attributes of DK, Sorc and NBs healer extravagant to make up for the Stamina battery that Templars were though. Even if you could pull it off, you would then need to consider the consequences as well.

DK shields would need to be so powerful that tanks wouldn't need to block for periods at a time: DK shields would be even more extreme than Sorc shields in their prime.
NBs would need to have a way to make enemies miss their target constantly so tanks wouldn't be constantly strained as attacks would miss them and not impact their stamina pools: NB groups would be impossible to kill due to high dodge chance
Sorcs would need a way to reduce incoming damage or split incoming damage between their pets so that tanks could survive tank busters: Sorcs would just reduce the the damage they take and shield thru the rest.

The problem was more that stamina is just too much of a must have commodity in ESO and being that Templars were the only class equip to handle that commodity, it became a forced niche of that job. Healing is easy, all classes can heal but it was their secondary utility that made them what they were and NB/DK/Sorcs had 0 secondary utility when it came to healing. Had Orbs granted stamina at the onset of ESO, this wouldn't have been such an issue but after 3 years of Templars having this niche, it became the defining factor of the class. Not the burst heals, not the Holier than Holy abilities but returning stamina. That was all the class was ever needed for and now that it's gone, everyone is losing their minds.

ZOS really could have handled this better but since this is ZOS we're talking about and their nerf hammer is Mjölnir, they took an easy fix to a small problem and turned it into the new Salt Lake.

Gomumon

@Silver_Strider Yeah, I suppose you're right about that last bit. I think that's more of a problem with their initial limitation of the holy trinity and pretty much designing this game to initially run 1 mag sorc, 1 stamblade, 1 DK tank, and 1 Temp Healer.

Had they designated Siphoning, Dark Magic/Daedric Summoning, and Earthen Heart to healing/utility, this wouldn't have been a problem. I do think that Synergies from the Undaunted skill line should be key in running top tier PVE, however. But they should've left Repentance alone. That just helped speed things along AFTER everyone disposed of trash MOBs.

Elsterchen

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, we’d like to address a couple outstanding issues that we’ve seen brought up over the past couple days. We understand many of you are upset about the change with Repentance, and we’d like to explain why we made this change. Previously, Templars were able to restore the entire stamina bar for them and their whole group. In this upcoming update, we’re really focusing on resource recovery, so this ability needed to be adjusted. Additionally, running out of resources essentially provides a cooldown into a game that is currently without one, and restoring your group’s stamina through Repentance goes against these goals. Repentance does still heal the whole group for a large amount, and additionally, has no cost to boot. Now that resources are going to be more important, free abilities are quite powerful.

Regarding Necrotic Orb and it now sharing a cooldown with Spear Shards, there are a few key differences between these two abilities we’d like to touch on first. Spear Shards is significantly cheaper and easier to target. Additionally, with the Luminous Shards morph, the Templar can also get this resource restore for himself. This change was ultimately made to make all classes viable healers in concordance with the reduction to resources. If Templars were the only healers that could restore resources after these changes, they would be outrageously superior healers, and we want all classes to be viable in some way. With that being said, despite the changes we’ve made, Templars are still the best class to heal. We just had to make some adjustments so they weren’t far beyond the other classes.

Lastly, the Ultimate ability we called out as having 28 meters is Rite of Passage, and that should’ve been 20 meters. Apologies for the typo and confusion! For what it’s worth, the Warden’s heal is only 8 meters.

I bolded parts of what you said, I understand your aim, but please enlighten me why a group should take a second grade DD or a, well at best: second grade healer (I'll elaborate on this just now) with clunky mechanics or a third grade tank/respectivelly a third grade tank that may provide some heals or some dmg at some situations, to do trials when there are plenty of better options out there?

This patch butchers the templer class leaving nothing "unique" to it (exept a cool spear animation) that will make it desireable to be part of the group in endgame PVE. How come ? Easy said: The burst healing abilities you claim to make the templar desireable are not used in endgame PVE, they are not used in endgame PVP either - because they are either having a stationary channel or a cast time tied to them. Both proves very undesirable for combat situations and a generic approach via restro staff and healing springs is apparently the way to go here. At the moment the templar can shine with this combination of weapon and weapon ability - because he can put major mending to the outcome. After your current patch every player, regardless of class will be able to cast this spell just as effective as a templar, by using healers habit and restrostaff and weapon skill. So, instead of making all classes viable healers you just removed that little extra templars were able to achieve in healing.

To top this the new class doesn't need to heavy attack major mending to their healing with restostaff and healing springs as they gain major mending simply whenever necessary by mending. I even can assure you that no warden will need to get the healers habit, no matter how short the Major mending duration will be, its ALWAYS there when needed.

Now one might argue, that the slow burst heals of templars finally have a use in endgame PVE or PVP if the changes to sustain allow longer lasting ... more stationary fights. This might even be true in PVE situation where most group members clunk together, or are at least near to each other. Well, I fail to see how restro staff major mending is going to work on these 2 abilities. Remember max uptime for major mending buff with restro staff is 3s. That uptime meets 4-6s channeling time or 1,5 seconds casttime WHILE FACING group members that need to be healed - oh yeah and at least one angry enemy (mob or player) that just got hit really hard on the head. So, I really think its safe to say that major mending the way you tend to put it into the game will close to never be relevant to these to abilities. No matter how good they actually are, they are slow and will never reach their full potential in endgame content. Now tell me, why use them ? There are instant heals that are spammable - however they do not justify a templer at all. You already made sure each class has the ability to heal using subpar spells. There is no reason to hand that job specifically to a templar.

And yeah, appart from beeing a healer what else can a templar add to challenging group play ? Damage not if there is a sorc or DK available. Tankiness - no there are going to be plenty of DKs and wardens. Do you actually know, why people keept rather calm when they heard the new class will have good healing abilities? Its because templars just could not imagine that on top of handing out a brandnew class for healing you would just simply scratch the ONLY other reason for a group to take a templar into PVE endcontent: stamina support!

Will your changes affect normal questing in PVE zones, public dungeons or anything like this - I am pretty sure it wont. But your changes will butcher templars for sure, leaving nothing desirable or special or unique to them. Even nightblades - and yeah you gave them a big beating too, but guess what: They are the only class that can cloak away when in distress. That is a really really cool thing and nightblades love their class for it. All classes had something special something that made them unique and that was envied by all other classes.

Tell us gina: what will the templar be envied for after your patch hits live? Please take time to explain what eactly do you have in mind for this class. A lot of us just do not seem to see it.

Gomumon

@Elsterchen Yeah, I don't really get it either. Their marketing is to push us a 5th class when they haven't even been able to balance 4 classes over 3 years. Seems like, given the direction they want for this game (i.e. no class is better at anything than another), they should do away with classes altogether, not add more.

zaria

ashenb14_ESO wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

I mean this just makes zero sense... correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying is basically "thank you for nerfing this ability to the point that no healer will use it. I will probably be the only one with it on my bar because it is so bad, so I will be able to get stam back." So hopefully there are no other stamplars around with it on their bar and also screw everyone else in the group who could use stam during trash fights, at least you'll get it. It'll hurt your group as a whole but whatever since you still get your stam. Alrighty then.

thats the exact attitude i have been seeing from EVERYBODY whos in love with these changes it looks good to them, they dont like the current combat, they want slower more drawn out fights....15-30min do to wayrest sewers for new players...screw that....it needs to take at least an hour...where 1/2 the play time is people using heavy attacks to regen..since regens are being nerfed to hell, and skills that let healers and the like restore stam...you dont need that if you just use heavy attacks for the majority of the damage you do....

im sure that everything will be much better with even more useless skills in the game, skills nerfed so hard they arent worth buying...

Also remember not to take damage during the long fights, healers will also have serious regen issues, this include sorcerer and warden healers even if better than others.

oibam

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

In this upcoming update, we’re really focusing on resource recovery, so this ability needed to be adjusted. Additionally, running out of resources essentially provides a cooldown into a game that is currently without one, and restoring your group’s stamina through Repentance goes against these goals. Repentance does still heal the whole group for a large amount, and additionally, has no cost to boot. Now that resources are going to be more important, free abilities are quite powerful.

1. you still need some corpses, you sound as if templars could use Repentance at any time for free and fill up all stamina
2. reduce the amount of restored stamina?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Regarding Necrotic Orb and it now sharing a cooldown with Spear Shards, there are a few key differences between these two abilities we’d like to touch on first. Spear Shards is significantly cheaper and easier to target. Additionally, with the Luminous Shards morph, the Templar can also get this resource restore for himself. This change was ultimately made to make all classes viable healers in concordance with the reduction to resources. If Templars were the only healers that could restore resources after these changes, they would be outrageously superior healers, and we want all classes to be viable in some way. With that being said, despite the changes we’ve made, Templars are still the best class to heal. We just had to make some adjustments so they weren’t far beyond the other classes.

• both skills nerfed: character level based !!!!!!! RAGE!!!!!!
• 2 different syniergies share the same cooldown ... no words ...

LordSlif

First was The dps and now heals. Lol

SilverWF

Didn't even try to touch Sorcs! Just GTFO with that ideas! The only viable class left in the game and they wanna nerf it too - what a nonsense? How the Sorcs nerf would help to Templars or anyone else? Nohow.

Bam_Bam

Gomumon wrote: »

@Elsterchen Yeah, I don't really get it either. Their marketing is to push us a 5th class when they haven't even been able to balance 4 classes over 3 years. Seems like, given the direction they want for this game (i.e. no class is better at anything than another), they should do away with classes altogether, not add more.

This x100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Sweetpea704

I wouldn't get too worked up about this. Remember when they nerfed the shields on Sorcs and everyone was moaning that "Sorcs were dead?" Yeah, well, not so much. This is going to kill your meta build, but you can adjust.

But, ZOS, please don't confuse balancing with making all the classes the same. The strength of the classes is their unique abilities.

Bam_Bam

Both PvE AND PvP....


Group, "STOP! Hang on a sec..."

Monsters/Players "Eh?! What?"

Group "Absolutely done in. Give us a sec to get our breath (stam, etc) back, and we'll be right up in your face again. But honestly, just need a quick breather..."

Monsters/Players "Oh OK. Strange - this must be that new update, right?"

Group *Nods, too exhausted to speak, sweat pouring from them*

Monsters/Players "Seems weird though - you're out of breath at C160 (and even more so when you're actually C821)."

Group *Nods, pulling at their armour, trying to allow a cold breath of air (stam, etc), revitalise them*

Monsters/Players "Wow you rteally are messed up! So sorry - let us know when you're done and then wecan get back to that awesome fast-paced combat for a few seconds then we'll have another rest....."

Elsonso

Sweetpea704 wrote: »

The change to the major mending for Templars is the one thing that I wish that they would not change. Templars should have a buff that gives them major mending over other classes. They are healers. My friends that run Templars are fantastic healers. One of my friends runs nothing but a Templar healer. That buff goes with taking all the crap that healers take. Give them the tools they need to run the end game content. I don't want all the classes to be the same. Why have classes? I'm fine with Warden having it only because if it is truly a "healer class" they need it as a tool in their arsenal also. You don't have to take this from Templar's for me to try a Warden. I am cool with balance, but don't make all the classes the same. Uniqueness is good. I love my Sorc and the unique abilities she has. I understand why my Templar buddies are bugged by this.

My guess is that they won't reverse the Major Mending change for Templars. The goal here seems to be to reduce the power of the characters and to homogenize the classes to a greater degree. The latter to prevent type-casting. While I expect that they will back down on a few changes, this change seems central to that homogenization. ZOS does not have the time to rework their whole balance work around new goals.

SilverWF

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Spear Shards: The synergy from this ability and its morphs now restore Stamina or Magicka, whichever Max pool is higher. The amount restored is now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource. The synergy also has a shared cooldown with the Necrotic Orb synergy.
  Developer Comments:
  This reduces the need to have a Templar to constantly feed Stamina to your Stamina DPS and Tank, while making the Spear Shards synergy more useful to Magicka builds.

I can agree with changes like this only.
But in the current PTS state this is nonsense. My DK tank have ~30k stam and ~9k Mag. I've got several hits on block, used some aggro skills and have 50% of Stam. In the same time I've casted party shield and Iron skin and used range aggro and have ~10% of Mag. Templar throwing shards on me and what I would restore? magicka? I DONT need it, coz I have 2k mag regen - I would have full mag pool in a few seconds! I need Stamina here, not magicka!

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Repentance (Restoring Aura morph): This morph now restores Health and Stamina based on your character level instead of your Max Resource. It also only restores Stamina to the casting Templar, but continues to restore Health to the casting Templar and his allies.
  Developer Comments:
  This will be a buff if your Maximum Stamina is below 29,700 and a nerf if it is above.

This skill was useful for tanks only, because they have tons of Stam and fairly low Stam regen.
It still can heal? WOW, but Health was never a problem between trash-packs coz out-of-combat high regen and HOTs.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Sacred Ground: This passive ability now grants Minor Mending instead of Major Mending when you are standing in your Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus, or Rite of Passage areas of effect.
  Developer Comments:
  With a similar goal to reducing uptime on Major Mending as noted with the Igneous Shield change, Templars having 100% uptime on Major Mending by just standing within their areas of protection is stronger than we’d like and is one of the reasons they are the most desirable healer in endgame situations. We’ve changed the bonus to Minor Mending instead, but have increased the bonus from the Mending passive to compensate slightly.

Just a nonsense. DK would still have Major Mending on demand, Warden would have it on the passive. Nice changes, really (not)

SorataArisugawa

Northern_Eve wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Northern_Eve wrote: »

I am getting really tired of these insults: "Templars are just a simple healing class" etc.

I wonder how many times us simple, privileged Templars that deserve to get nerfed to oblivion in your opinion have kept your asses alive and your resources going during the game?

Skip it already! A nightblade, dragonknight or a sorc would have done the same, but because they didn't get the CORE-supportskills, they where never chosen to be healer. You and all the other templars, who are used be the one and only, are just not capable to accept that YOU ARE NOT THAT SPECIAL ANYMORE

/rant

Are you serious? If you were all this time so envious to people who chose to play templars, why didn't you just make one yourself?

This is not about "being special". This is about crippling a class. Maybe you enjoy to see it happening to others, I certainly don't and wouldn't wish it on any sorc, NB (that is too late unfortunately) or DK.

It's difficult to understand people this spiteful exist.

Yeah right. I already play 2 of them. The people, which are playing it are not in my interest. You could feel special all day long. I don't care.

It is not about crippling a class. It is about to make an too good class comparable. The class was to good for healing and supporting and now this is gone. Now It is still good or even slightly better as the others. But you feel entiteled to be the unreachable healer for chosing the templar. Now you have to work for your place as a healer. And you can't accept it. You got 3 years of beeing the best by default. I hope you enjoyed this time enough. And when you major up, you can stop the salt in the end...

Miswar

Been away for few days and checked if ZoS has come to their senses about Templar funeral patch.

It seems not and not even suprised. Hope your Morrowind $$$$$$ profit plumtis due this nonsense.

Gomumon

Miswar wrote: »

Been away for few days and checked if ZoS has come to their senses about Templar funeral patch.

It seems not and not even suprised. Hope your Morrowind $$$$$$ profit plumtis due this nonsense.

Yep. If they're not going to celebrate class differences, they might as well do away with them altogether. I mean, 3.0 basically says, "After 3 years, we still haven't figured out how to balance these 4 classes.

... Here's a 5th class BTW. Buy it!"

Gomumon

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Northern_Eve wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Northern_Eve wrote: »

I am getting really tired of these insults: "Templars are just a simple healing class" etc.

I wonder how many times us simple, privileged Templars that deserve to get nerfed to oblivion in your opinion have kept your asses alive and your resources going during the game?

Skip it already! A nightblade, dragonknight or a sorc would have done the same, but because they didn't get the CORE-supportskills, they where never chosen to be healer. You and all the other templars, who are used be the one and only, are just not capable to accept that YOU ARE NOT THAT SPECIAL ANYMORE

/rant

Are you serious? If you were all this time so envious to people who chose to play templars, why didn't you just make one yourself?

This is not about "being special". This is about crippling a class. Maybe you enjoy to see it happening to others, I certainly don't and wouldn't wish it on any sorc, NB (that is too late unfortunately) or DK.

It's difficult to understand people this spiteful exist.

Yeah right. I already play 2 of them. The people, which are playing it are not in my interest. You could feel special all day long. I don't care.

It is not about crippling a class. It is about to make an too good class comparable. The class was to good for healing and supporting and now this is gone. Now It is still good or even slightly better as the others. But you feel entiteled to be the unreachable healer for chosing the templar. Now you have to work for your place as a healer. And you can't accept it. You got 3 years of beeing the best by default. I hope you enjoyed this time enough. And when you major up, you can stop the salt in the end...

What's the point in even having classes if everyone is going to be able to do anything just as good as anyone else? The beauty of an RPG is that you PLAY a ROLE; usually a warrior, mage, cleric, rouge, ranger, or berserker, or a subclass of them.

masterbroodub17_ESO

Gomumon wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Northern_Eve wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Northern_Eve wrote: »

I am getting really tired of these insults: "Templars are just a simple healing class" etc.

I wonder how many times us simple, privileged Templars that deserve to get nerfed to oblivion in your opinion have kept your asses alive and your resources going during the game?

Skip it already! A nightblade, dragonknight or a sorc would have done the same, but because they didn't get the CORE-supportskills, they where never chosen to be healer. You and all the other templars, who are used be the one and only, are just not capable to accept that YOU ARE NOT THAT SPECIAL ANYMORE

/rant

Are you serious? If you were all this time so envious to people who chose to play templars, why didn't you just make one yourself?

This is not about "being special". This is about crippling a class. Maybe you enjoy to see it happening to others, I certainly don't and wouldn't wish it on any sorc, NB (that is too late unfortunately) or DK.

It's difficult to understand people this spiteful exist.

Yeah right. I already play 2 of them. The people, which are playing it are not in my interest. You could feel special all day long. I don't care.

It is not about crippling a class. It is about to make an too good class comparable. The class was to good for healing and supporting and now this is gone. Now It is still good or even slightly better as the others. But you feel entiteled to be the unreachable healer for chosing the templar. Now you have to work for your place as a healer. And you can't accept it. You got 3 years of beeing the best by default. I hope you enjoyed this time enough. And when you major up, you can stop the salt in the end...

What's the point in even having classes if everyone is going to be able to do anything just as good as anyone else? The beauty of an RPG is that you PLAY a ROLE; usually a warrior, mage, cleric, rouge, ranger, or berserker, or a subclass of them.

The QQ coming from templars is pretty pathetic. The very idea that they might not be meta healers anymore is apparently too much for them to take.

Should they never ever add another class then? They have a healer, they have a tank, they have two DPS classes (ranged and melee).

By your logic it's done, no new classes ever. All because Templars want to retain superiority forever.

Cinbri

Miswar wrote: »

Been away for few days and checked if ZoS has come to their senses about Templar funeral patch.

It seems not and not even suprised. Hope your Morrowind $$$$$$ profit plumtis due this nonsense.

It is healbot funeral patch and healbot ≠ templar. Templar is feeling alive and great, thx for concerning. But given that people love the way of less resistance with easy mode 1 button spam I not surprised with all this hysteria.

Lore_lai

Cinbri wrote: »

Miswar wrote: »

Been away for few days and checked if ZoS has come to their senses about Templar funeral patch.

It seems not and not even suprised. Hope your Morrowind $$$$$$ profit plumtis due this nonsense.

It is healbot funeral patch and healbot ≠ templar. Templar is feeling alive and great, thx for concerning. But given that people love the way of less resistance with easy mode 1 button spam I not surprised with all this hysteria.

You do realize that Templar also means = StamPlar?
Magicka will be fine and some of the changes are actually quite nice - except fix the GD Luminous CC already - Luminous is going to be bittersweet.
But - while I think Stamplar will be fine too, I see no reason why some things are being gutted like they are in regards to sustain.
Not everyone is complaining about healbotting - actually if you look at it, most people don't even complain about the changes that would encourage healbotting. So I dunno where you're getting that from.