What's the point of running Templar healers now? (PTS natch potes)

DisgracefulMind

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, we’d like to address a couple outstanding issues that we’ve seen brought up over the past couple days. We understand many of you are upset about the change with Repentance, and we’d like to explain why we made this change. Previously, Templars were able to restore the entire stamina bar for them and their whole group. In this upcoming update, we’re really focusing on resource recovery, so this ability needed to be adjusted. Additionally, running out of resources essentially provides a cooldown into a game that is currently without one, and restoring your group’s stamina through Repentance goes against these goals. Repentance does still heal the whole group for a large amount, and additionally, has no cost to boot. Now that resources are going to be more important, free abilities are quite powerful.

Regarding Necrotic Orb and it now sharing a cooldown with Spear Shards, there are a few key differences between these two abilities we’d like to touch on first. Spear Shards is significantly cheaper and easier to target. Additionally, with the Luminous Shards morph, the Templar can also get this resource restore for himself. This change was ultimately made to make all classes viable healers in concordance with the reduction to resources. If Templars were the only healers that could restore resources after these changes, they would be outrageously superior healers, and we want all classes to be viable in some way. With that being said, despite the changes we’ve made, Templars are still the best class to heal. We just had to make some adjustments so they weren’t far beyond the other classes.

Lastly, the Ultimate ability we called out as having 28 meters is Rite of Passage, and that should’ve been 20 meters. Apologies for the typo and confusion! For what it’s worth, the Warden’s heal is only 8 meters.

I'd just like to point out that it's not actually a "free cast". You have to work for your kill for that "free cast".

dimensional

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Which takes the MMO with the most exciting combat on the market and turns into the MMO with the dullest combat on the market.

Wrong. It makes it 100000% way better. Ability spam with infinite resources is boring and dull.

Gomumon

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Gomumon wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

Alchemical wrote: »

If you play Templar because it's the objectively strongest healer and/or it was easy to play, well, then go play Warden for your easy mode flavor of the month. Then in a few patches it'll get nerf'd back into line and people will cry "Why even run a Warden when Templar is so much better now?"

Sorry, I don't do this "flavor of the month" nonsense. I have a character that I've invested years of play into, that has high end achievements that I had hoped to continue to build on. Getting everything I needed for this character has been a daunting task for me. I've put way too many hours into this character to just sideline him and pick up another healer because ZoS decided to nerf me to hell & back to sell their DLC class.

Our 4-man group has just completed some nice vet dungeons with only Ruins of Mazzatun remaining...and now I am to be told that we have to just suck it up with these changes, learn to how to respec our builds, farm new gear, learn new rotations, etc, just to continue to maybe be able to do the same content in the future that we're already doing today? Our tank will have to relearn how to block, have to farm new gear, have to manage resources that I can no longer give him. Our Stamblade DPS will decrease drastically, and he'll be out of resources too, likely also have to farm new gear. I think I'll pass on that. It's taken us months to get to this point. To start over does not sound at all appealing to me. I thought we really were accomplishing something, and I'm not sure I have the energy or motivation to start that process over again.

It's akin to being in an abusive relationship...ZoS comes back in this thread after smacking us down and says "hey, we still love you, honest!", but it doesn't feel right to continue to throw money at them. The crazy thing is that I've already preordered Morrowind, and planned to check out the Warden as an alt...but not at the expense of losing my beloved main character's strengths & identity.

Every game goes through major shake-ups throughout it's lifespan. In a game like this it's felt much more because of the amount of freedom you get. It has a price, and that price is that when even one skill is changed by something as small as 2% the entire meta shifts.
It's the nature of the beast in a game like this, suck it up buttercup.

I am not new to MMO's. Been playing them since UO/Everquest. This is the first time that I've felt this way about any DLC patches in all those years. I've had classes or abilities that were legitimately overpowered, and were rightfully adjusted. This is not that. Gaming is a very competitive market for our time though, and the beauty of it is I don't have to suck it up. I can simply cancel my preorders, unsub, and play something else that feels more rewarding and less dirty. So no, I don't have to suck it up. ZoS does.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Another thing that has Templars fired up is this statement:

"Group based buffs/synergies - Several of these abilities were near-mandatory in end-game situations and have been adjusted."

Followed by these:

Aedric Spear
Spear Shards: The synergy from this ability and its morphs now restore Stamina or Magicka, whichever percentage is lower. The amount restored is now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource. The synergy also has a shared cooldown with the Necrotic Orb synergy.
Luminous Shards (Spear Shards morph): This morph now causes the synergy to also restore an equal amount of Magicka or Stamina to the casting Templar, with a 20-second cooldown.

Undaunted
Mystic Orb (Necrotic Orb morph): This morph now increases the damage the orb deals.
Necrotic Orb: The synergy from this ability and its morphs now restore Stamina or Magicka to the synergy-user, whichever percentage is lower. The amount restored is now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource. The synergy also has a shared cooldown with the Spear Shards synergy.

Repentance (Restoring Aura morph): This morph now restores Health and Stamina based on your character level instead of your Max Resource. It also only restores Stamina to the casting Templar, but continues to restore Health to the casting Templar and his allies.

Once again, insulting our intelligence by claiming that "several" synergies & group buffs were "near-mandatory" in end-game situations and have been adjusted. Yet you didn't adjust "several" synergies and group buffs...you only adjusted Templar group buffs & synergies, removing Repentance altogether as a group buff, and bastardizing the Spear by putting it on same cooldown as the Orb. Why not just change the original statement to something along these lines:

"Templars bring too much group buff & synergy utility to the table and are desired in end-game situations. Since healing Wardens will fulfill the same role, we've removed any reason to need to bring a Templar with you in those situations. Buy our expansion."

TL;DR: I'm not meta anymore and I'm going to throw a fit over it.

Welcome to Nightblades since forever.

Why are you even here? You're not adding anything substantial to anyone's discussion, nor are you giving any sort of proper rebuttal. If you're fine with the changes, then have fun on the PTS. But continuously misrepresenting people's arguments is bordering trolling.

It's simple enough to understand what I meant. Not every post has to be a page-long diatribe.

If you want more detail I can simplify it for you. The meta *might* be changing to another healer and Templars are losing their ***. I feel no sympathy because plenty of other class/role combos are non-meta and have been for forever.

In a game where you are granted this much freedom things change all the time. If you want tightly tuned classes and encounters that will never ever change by more than a few fractions of a percent look elsewhere. I mean that too, not trying to say eff off, just the truth.

Once again, you failed to answer the question. Why are you here? We're here to talk about the changes. All you're doing is talking about other people. You're not countering arguments about the balance, but using red herrings to infer why people don't​ like these changes. Nothing you're saying serves the discussion whatsoever.

If you're fine with the changes then, again, have fun on the PTS. But stop the pretentious trolling.

TL;DR: www.Hookedonphonics.com

leeux

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Northern_Eve wrote: »

I am getting really tired of these insults: "Templars are just a simple healing class" etc.

I wonder how many times us simple, privileged Templars that deserve to get nerfed to oblivion in your opinion have kept your asses alive and your resources going during the game?

Skip it already! A nightblade, dragonknight or a sorc would have done the same, but because they didn't get the CORE-supportskills, they where never chosen to be healer. You and all the other templars, who are used be the one and only, are just not capable to accept that YOU ARE NOT THAT SPECIAL ANYMORE

/rant

Herein lies the heart of the problem: there's a group of people that have access to ZOS and had an agenda to make the healing rol """"accesible"""" to everyone, playing every class. (I don't know this poster nor I know his/her intentions/motivations, but I'll just using this post as an example of a stance that several people had shown over the past week.)

They lobbied for it for a long time and patch after patch (as evidenced by past threads as old as 2015 which requested this kind of "equality".)

Now, finally, ZOS made the changes needed for that to happen... but at the same time they introduced a new class whose task also includes healing. I wonder what would happen now, IF the math/theory-crafting/min-maxing in the end decides that WARDENs are a must for healing in RAIDS (which is what it matters here... they ALWAYS could go with their sorcerers, DKs and NBs to heal normal and veteran dungeons) ... would this group start lobbying for also demoting the Warden from that position?

EDIT: Also, should have added, they made also a MESS of the game to the point that nobody knows yet what will happen... it could be that they're even worse than before

Gomumon

Northern_Eve wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Northern_Eve wrote: »

I am getting really tired of these insults: "Templars are just a simple healing class" etc.

I wonder how many times us simple, privileged Templars that deserve to get nerfed to oblivion in your opinion have kept your asses alive and your resources going during the game?

Skip it already! A nightblade, dragonknight or a sorc would have done the same, but because they didn't get the CORE-supportskills, they where never chosen to be healer. You and all the other templars, who are used be the one and only, are just not capable to accept that YOU ARE NOT THAT SPECIAL ANYMORE

/rant

Are you serious? If you were all this time so envious to people who chose to play templars, why didn't you just make one yourself?

This is not about "being special". This is about crippling a class. Maybe you enjoy to see it happening to others, I certainly don't and wouldn't wish it on any sorc, NB (that is too late unfortunately) or DK.

It's difficult to understand people this spiteful exist.

IKR? I have 2 of each class, as do most of my friends, so it's not like most people celebrate the destruction of any given class. If they want everyone to perform the same in any given role or scenario, they might as well do away with racial passives, set gear, mundus stones and classes altogether and just let you choose your weapon. -_-

GallantGuardian

As far as repent goes.. why not just make it like restoring aura only instead of a magika steal let it be a stamina steal only opposed to the radiant aura morph that it increases the range ..let this just have the range of restoring aura...

vyndral13preub18_ESO

dimensional wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Which takes the MMO with the most exciting combat on the market and turns into the MMO with the dullest combat on the market.

Wrong. It makes it 100000% way better. Ability spam with infinite resources is boring and dull.

Agreed. Who doesn't enjoy cooldowns?

newtinmpls

Phinix1 wrote: »

You forgot that both Shards and Orbs now restore Stamina or Magicka whichever is lower.

Oh my jeepers. This is not well thought out.

DirtySmeegs33

brandonv516 wrote: »

Does this nerf to templar BoL make sorcerer pet healer more desired (no cone)?

I've personally found the sorcerer pet heal to be really good with the right build.

No because u can't target their heal. It's not even a "smart" heal it is just random. So group members will die while u over heal others not even getting hit.

willklippsteinb14_ESO

Faulgor wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, we’d like to address a couple outstanding issues that we’ve seen brought up over the past couple days. We understand many of you are upset about the change with Repentance, and we’d like to explain why we made this change. Previously, Templars were able to restore the entire stamina bar for them and their whole group. In this upcoming update, we’re really focusing on resource recovery, so this ability needed to be adjusted. Additionally, running out of resources essentially provides a cooldown into a game that is currently without one, and restoring your group’s stamina through Repentance goes against these goals. Repentance does still heal the whole group for a large amount, and additionally, has no cost to boot. Now that resources are going to be more important, free abilities are quite powerful.

Regarding Necrotic Orb and it now sharing a cooldown with Spear Shards, there are a few key differences between these two abilities we’d like to touch on first. Spear Shards is significantly cheaper and easier to target. Additionally, with the Luminous Shards morph, the Templar can also get this resource restore for himself. This change was ultimately made to make all classes viable healers in concordance with the reduction to resources. If Templars were the only healers that could restore resources after these changes, they would be outrageously superior healers, and we want all classes to be viable in some way. With that being said, despite the changes we’ve made, Templars are still the best class to heal. We just had to make some adjustments so they weren’t far beyond the other classes.

Lastly, the Ultimate ability we called out as having 28 meters is Rite of Passage, and that should’ve been 20 meters. Apologies for the typo and confusion! For what it’s worth, the Warden’s heal is only 8 meters.

So, why are Templars allowed to keep their AoE Minor Magickasteal on Radiant Aura? Why doesn't this make them "outrageously superior" healers, but Repentance does? That seems simply like favoring magicka over stamina builds to me, considering there isn't even a Minor Staminasteal debuff in the game.

are you listening to your self? how can you compare a skill that restores very little magicka to a skill that can complete refill thousands of points worth of stamina? that there is in favoring stamina. Stamina users needed this nerf. Magicka users had to worry about all three stats, whilst stam builds needed only two resources to excel. This is balance. Remember the death of the magicka sorcs? and we were told to get good? right back at the stam users #feelthenerf

Pallio

Nostalgia

vyndral13preub18_ESO

willklippsteinb14_ESO wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, we’d like to address a couple outstanding issues that we’ve seen brought up over the past couple days. We understand many of you are upset about the change with Repentance, and we’d like to explain why we made this change. Previously, Templars were able to restore the entire stamina bar for them and their whole group. In this upcoming update, we’re really focusing on resource recovery, so this ability needed to be adjusted. Additionally, running out of resources essentially provides a cooldown into a game that is currently without one, and restoring your group’s stamina through Repentance goes against these goals. Repentance does still heal the whole group for a large amount, and additionally, has no cost to boot. Now that resources are going to be more important, free abilities are quite powerful.

Regarding Necrotic Orb and it now sharing a cooldown with Spear Shards, there are a few key differences between these two abilities we’d like to touch on first. Spear Shards is significantly cheaper and easier to target. Additionally, with the Luminous Shards morph, the Templar can also get this resource restore for himself. This change was ultimately made to make all classes viable healers in concordance with the reduction to resources. If Templars were the only healers that could restore resources after these changes, they would be outrageously superior healers, and we want all classes to be viable in some way. With that being said, despite the changes we’ve made, Templars are still the best class to heal. We just had to make some adjustments so they weren’t far beyond the other classes.

Lastly, the Ultimate ability we called out as having 28 meters is Rite of Passage, and that should’ve been 20 meters. Apologies for the typo and confusion! For what it’s worth, the Warden’s heal is only 8 meters.

So, why are Templars allowed to keep their AoE Minor Magickasteal on Radiant Aura? Why doesn't this make them "outrageously superior" healers, but Repentance does? That seems simply like favoring magicka over stamina builds to me, considering there isn't even a Minor Staminasteal debuff in the game.

are you listening to your self? how can you compare a skill that restores very little magicka to a skill that can complete refill thousands of points worth of stamina? that there is in favoring stamina. Stamina users needed this nerf. Magicka users had to worry about all three stats, whilst stam builds needed only two resources to excel. This is balance. Remember the death of the magicka sorcs? and we were told to get good? right back at the stam users #feelthenerf

Obviously stam users needed this nerf. Just look at the way they are dominating the raid scene.

Pallio

Remember it is a buff if you have never played a Templar, otherwise yeah it is a nerf.

Illurian

I'm quite surprised and amazed at how we actually got another green text response!

Thanks again @ZOS_GinaBruno. Here are some follow up arguments:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, we’d like to address a couple outstanding issues that we’ve seen brought up over the past couple days. We understand many of you are upset about the change with Repentance, and we’d like to explain why we made this change. Previously, Templars were able to restore the entire stamina bar for them and their whole group. In this upcoming update, we’re really focusing on resource recovery, so this ability needed to be adjusted. Additionally, running out of resources essentially provides a cooldown into a game that is currently without one, and restoring your group’s stamina through Repentance goes against these goals. Repentance does still heal the whole group for a large amount, and additionally, has no cost to boot. Now that resources are going to be more important, free abilities are quite powerful.

While I completely understand wanting to reduce the amount of resources that Templars restored to their allies, removing it entirely is an completely different matter. Some options that you could have looked at were, for example, reducing the amount of stamina restored to the group, which could be done through several means, such as: making each corpse after the first in a single cast restore less stamina, limiting a single cast to 1 corpse, giving the stamina return an internal cooldown, or even simply introducing a cap on the amount the skill could restore entirely. There are so many options you could have looked at to reduce the amount of resources Templars could restore to the group instead of the knee-jerk reaction of removing it in its entirety.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Regarding Necrotic Orb and it now sharing a cooldown with Spear Shards, there are a few key differences between these two abilities we’d like to touch on first. Spear Shards is significantly cheaper and easier to target. Additionally, with the Luminous Shards morph, the Templar can also get this resource restore for himself. This change was ultimately made to make all classes viable healers in concordance with the reduction to resources. If Templars were the only healers that could restore resources after these changes, they would be outrageously superior healers, and we want all classes to be viable in some way. With that being said, despite the changes we’ve made, Templars are still the best class to heal. We just had to make some adjustments so they weren’t far beyond the other classes.

I understand wanting to bring the classes more in line with each other (and by classes, we seem to be completely ignoring Warden altogether), but the problem is that each class excelled at a certain aspect in the game more than the others, and thus fell behind in other aspects. DKs were the best tanks. Sorcs are the best dps. Templars were the best healers. NBs were the best gankers. (Yes I know NBs need tons of love but that's an entirely different debate altogether.)

This created diversity between the classes and made niches which gave a far more in-depth game in terms of theorycrafting and build planning.

You claim that Templars are still the best healers, but I beg to differ. Templars do not have anything other classes cannot provide anymore, and thus, at the very best, are even healers with the other classes, but fall far behind in tanking, dps or ganking (yes I know ganking got nerfed in general but different debate as well). The unique quirk of the class has been completely neutered and removed.
It is usually bad strategy in debates to counter points that have not been brought up, but I will do it here anyway: the one point of contention that would make people think that Templars retain the title of "best healer" is the burst heal from BoL. This, however, is not true. Non-Templar healers will use Ward Ally/Healing Ward, which mechanically works the same as BoL pre-nerf (thus not requiring the healer to face the ally), which will give a massive shield to the ally in danger. This gives the healer's HoTs (and active heal skills) more than enough time to heal said ally back to full. This means that in some situations where the healer cannot find said ally in danger, non-Templar healers might even out-perform Templar healers due to the lack of targeting required from Ward Ally/Healing Ward.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Lastly, the Ultimate ability we called out as having 28 meters is Rite of Passage, and that should’ve been 20 meters. Apologies for the typo and confusion! For what it’s worth, the Warden’s heal is only 8 meters.

EDIT: Used an out-dated wiki entry.
Aside from the fact that the capability of having a long healing range plays a minimal role in PvE, Rite of Passage only has 20 meters if you happened to choose the right morph (Remembrance). The other morph, Practiced Incantation, has a radius of 12 meters, which isn't much better than the Warden's heal.
I wouldn't mind trading the range of Rite of Passage for Warden's Major Mending passive. Hell, take the whole skill, not just the range, but give us back Major Mending! Or at least a way to reliably attain it!


Thanks again for the responses, Gina. I appreciate the effort but it simply doesn't justify the lack of gradual balances rather than the landslide.

I'll end here with this: you know how when you boil an egg, you need to heat the water to a boil with the egg already in it? When you throw the egg into a pot of already boiling water, the egg will break. This same logic can be used with balance patches. Gradually hit the classes (and your community) with slight nerfs here and there, and under constant, proactive observation, stop when you have the egg perfectly cooked. Throwing the class and community into a pot of extremely hot nerfs will only destroy the egg.

danno8

Illurian wrote: »

I'm Aside from the fact that the capability of having a long healing range plays a minimal role in PvE, Rite of Passage only has 20 meters if you happened to choose the right morph (Remembrance). The other morph, Practiced Incantation, has a radius of 12 meters, which isn't much better than the Warden's heal.

@Illurian This is incorrect. Whatever wiki you are using is wrong. In-game both morphs have a 20m radius.

Illurian

danno8 wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

I'm Aside from the fact that the capability of having a long healing range plays a minimal role in PvE, Rite of Passage only has 20 meters if you happened to choose the right morph (Remembrance). The other morph, Practiced Incantation, has a radius of 12 meters, which isn't much better than the Warden's heal.

@Illurian This is incorrect. Whatever wiki you are using is wrong. In-game both morphs have a 20m radius.

This was the wiki I was using. It must be out-dated. My mistake!

Illurian

Double post.

Mitsumi

You all know this is part of their plot to force everyone to pay for the Warden class if they want to heal, right?

UppGRAYxDD

Kagoky wrote: »

You all know this is part of their plot to force everyone to pay for the Warden class if they want to heal, right?

This is why I am building a Nord Health Recovery focused sunshield build for next patch...cold resistance anyone???

Joy_Division

I'm going to type out my feeling on Monday. I would do so today, but I'm going to wait because I don't want to write something down that I will regret.

For now though, I'll say this.

The reason I am very disappointed with the upcoming Morrowind update is not because of nerfs. Nope, all ZoS's patch notes have been for the past year+ is just a big fat compilation of nerfs that have me dreading them instead of looking forward to reading them. I'm rather numbed by them actually.

It's not because I am jealous of the Warden. I'm not going to resentful that other classes have interesting aspects that set them part even though mine no longer has.

It's not necessarily because I will have to spam heavy attacks next patch and I honestly don't think exchanging two spell power jewelry enchants for two cost reduction ones somehow makes me a better player or the game more interesting to play.

It's ZoS's approach. I keep hearing how ZoS wants to make other class healers viable. Well, there was an alternative way you could have gone about doing that ZoS: give the other classes something unique they bring to the table. But nope. Instead nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf, always a nerf.

What it boils down to is this. I have played a Templar since Launch and actually cared about the class. When I think back to all the interesting game mechanics that I once had that set me apart from the other classes and the generic homogenized husk of its former self now, I just want to throw my computer out the window. It anyone thinking I am exaggerating than they have not played a Templar since launch and cared about the class.

And for what? All in a futile effort to counterbalance the Power Creep that come from generic and insipid flat power buffs we all get from the Champion System. We have gained so much power from nuking Zombies in Skyreach Catacombs that ZoS has felt compelled they have no choice but to take away the actual power in our classes. That's a terrible change.

UppGRAYxDD

Konstant_Tel_Necris

Welcome to other then templar healers world

pecheckler

I was going to begin playing again today after 8 months but instead I'm just laughing at that rushed ceramony change. That is pure stupidity. You can't go and fundamentally change a staple ability that defines the class. Guess I'm done thinking about playing again with devs that so stuff like this.

Frenkthevile

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Additionally, running out of resources essentially provides a cooldown into a game that is currently without one

But that is not really how cooldowns work in other games. In other games Skill A might be on cooldown, so you fall back on Skill B or Skill C or Skill D or Skill E or Skill F, etc. In a skill cooldown game, there is generally a large variety of skills available to be cast at any time, just not *any* skill you want because some are on cooldown. But in ESO, running out of resources does not mean you cannot cast a particular skill. It means you cannot cast anything. In other games, if a particular skill is on cooldown, you use one of a dozen other active skills. In ESO, if you run out of resources and are on "cooldown", all your choices are removed. All you can do is heavy attack. Which takes the MMO with the most exciting combat on the market and turns into the MMO with the dullest combat on the market.

Lore_lai

Joy_Division wrote: »

And for what? All in a futile effort to counterbalance the Power Creep that come from generic and insipid flat power buffs we all get from the Champion System. We have gained so much power from nuking Zombies in Skyreach Catacombs that ZoS has felt compelled they have no choice but to take away the actual power in our classes. That's a terrible change.

It's really sad. Personally, at this point, I feel like CPs hurt more than provide any form of enjoyable character progression.
To me it looks like they try to juggle everything at once - no CP, mid-CP, capped CP and in the process they are slowly losing their grip on things, driving class uniqueness into the ground for the sake of saving their flawed system.

Honestly, if one day they would decide to completely remove CPs or have them only as QoL improvements that have no impact on combat - I would not only not shed a single tear, but I would crack open the champagne and celebrate.

Galwylin

If we're losing class diversity either remove the classes (we'll all just play the same character or something) or remove the champion system. Once that's gone, then work on balancing the classes. You can't balance a class based on what a player may take in the champion system. That punishes players that don't follow the crowd. Just gut the thing already. I think addressing the champion system while also addressing class balance isn't going to please anyone. But don't make a dragonknight or a Templar or a sorcerer or a nightblade or even a warden the same with different named skills. If that's what you are trying to do, we don't want that.

Shad0wfire99

One way or another, every gamer everywhere will know the story of how the Morrowind ESO release went down.

hmsdragonfly

Illurian wrote: »

I understand wanting to bring the classes more in line with each other (and by classes, we seem to be completely ignoring Warden altogether), but the problem is that each class excelled at a certain aspect in the game more than the others, and thus fell behind in other aspects. DKs were the best tanks. Sorcs are the best dps. Templars were the best healers. NBs were the best gankers. (Yes I know NBs need tons of love but that's an entirely different debate altogether.)

Templar DDs are allowed to run vet trials. Their DPS is not far behind sorc and way above Nightblade's.
Templar tanks are allowed to run vet trials, as long as it's not a competitive raid group.
Non-Templar healers are not allowed to run vet trials, period. It doesn't matter if the group runs for score or not, Templar healers only.

Why? In the community right now, feeding stamina to the group is healer's job, along side healing. Just like how a tank has to taunt, debuff and hold aggro. DK tanks can taunt, debuff, hold aggro. Templar tanks can taunt, debuff, hold aggro, they can fulfill the job of a tank, it's just that they are less effective than DK tanks. A Non-Templar healer doesn't have any ability to restore stamina to the group, meaning, they cannot fulfill the job of a healer. It's not about effectiveness, the problem isn't that they are less effective than Templar healers, the problem is that they cannot do what a healer has to do. Non-Templar healers have no chance to participate in trial runs, unless the Non-Templar healer is the raid leader and he forces every group member to accommodate to his lack of ability to do what a healer has to do.

If you want to keep Templar the only class that is allowed to heal in vet trials, then make sure that Templar's DPS capatibilty is pathetic like how a Nightblade or a Sorc healer compared to a Templar healer. If a Sorc cannot heal in raids then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS in raids. Then, tranfer Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash to DK's class skill lines, DK is the best class for tanking so it's only fair if only them have access to Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash, yes?

Illurian wrote: »

You claim that Templars are still the best healers, but I beg to differ. Templars do not have anything other classes cannot provide anymore, and thus, at the very best, are even healers with the other classes, but fall far behind in tanking, dps or ganking (yes I know ganking got nerfed in general but different debate as well). The unique quirk of the class has been completely neutered and removed.

Log into PTS and try for yourself. Templar is still the best class for healing. Templar has all the edges in the world compared to other classes when it comes to healing. What has changed is that non-Templar healers have a chance to join regular vet trials runs, if we talk about competitive raid groups, Sorc/NB/DK healers have no chance to take the place of Templar healers.

You want to keep the mean of giving stamina back to the group for yourself? Fine, then tranfer Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash to DK. Then make sure Templar's DPS capatibilty is so pathetic that no one let Templar DDs to run trial anymore.

Gargis

What a Joke! Pure Cash Grab!

Account cancelled and you can Stuff the expansion.

Gomumon

Joy_Division wrote: »

I keep hearing how ZoS wants to make other class healers viable. Well, there was an alternative way you could have gone about doing that ZoS: give the other classes something unique they bring to the table. But nope. Instead nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf, always a nerf.

This. I feel exactly the same way and my Templar isn't even my main. I've often compared what they're doing with classes here to making all cars in a racing game have the exact same stats, instead of giving pros and cons to each. At the end of the day, homogenizing classes will reduce their differences to mere cosmetic appeal...Which seems counterproductive when you're trying to launch a FIFTH class.

Class differences should be celebrated. The problem is people who make multiple toons wanting to be able to play everything else the same way as the class they got used to. Again, that's like wanting the monster truck in a racing game to perform the same as the Evo. It's unrealistic even beyond the suspended disbelief required for fantasy games.

Yes, all classes should be able to deal damage, tank, and heal; after all, they ALL have three skill lines that could be used accordingly. However, the WAY in which they achieve those results should be unique and interesting to the class. The example I give is that Sorcerers need to stay speedy and keep distance while DKs need to utilize their endurance and hit hard. Every class does not need to support every play style and be good at everything everyone wants them to be.