What's the point of running Templar healers now? (PTS natch potes)

CrazySonoran

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Repentance does still heal the whole group for a large amount, and additionally, has no cost to boot. Now that resources are going to be more important, free abilities are quite powerful.

Think about what situations you actually used Repentance for it's heal, though. I used it during trash mob fights to keep the train moving, so to speak, giving back resources to my group, not for the heals. In boss fights, where you actually need heals, it's either a single boss (no corpses to use), or the adds don't count as corpses for the Repentance ability in the first place. It still reads to me that from my gameplay style, as a PvE healer, this skill might as well have been removed entirely.

This is so true. I rarely use Repentance during a fight, some use it early on to refill the parties stamina, but I could never see refilling something that hasnt emptied that much yet and when the stamina users finally need stamina the mobs are usually dead anyways, so stamina refill from Repentance doesnt effect the fight at all. Another option would be to let Repentance restore stamina over time, but that may be too logical.

jaye63

EVERYONE is missing the REAL issue

The real issue is I put time and effort into learning the game. Not going to build sites and picking the most uber build... Im actually figuring it out and all of the subtleties on my own. For 10 characters. Which points go where, the best gear for each, which is gonna be my achiever, crafter, etc etc etc.

With the proposed changes... you have effectively forced me to start over with all of them. And ZOS thinks that's going to make me want to buy Morrowind or spend ANY money here? ROTFLMBO! What it makes me want to do is quit MMOs altogether and go back to single player where I dont have to worry that in a couple of months I'm going to have to start over again.

If this were a BETA game, I could handle that. BETA is where you work all of that stuff out. But management doesnt give a (explative delete) if it's ready. You have a deadline and have to get it out ready or not. You make these changes and you will lose at least half of the players. Period. No one wants their efforts to be for naught. I play games to have a leisure time activity and management messes that up.

Take some advice from a business owner. Look at the people in the forums and find out who actually plays. Like me. I play every day. Look at who spends money. Like me. Look at what it would take to get people to spend money. Like server and bug fixes, not an expansion that kills the game. And if your management cant do that, fire them and hire some one who does. Deadlines keep people on task. Forced deadline put out a garbage product. And nerfing everything to make that product sell loses customers.

If you implement this patch, me and my *sold my business and retired* wallet are going to walk. And when I do... please realize that you are the last straw in a long line of MMOs that look at their wallet before looking at mine. You want my money? Make me happy. Im fed up with half hearted effort, money grab tactics and overall lousy service from game companies.

I'll be at the PC store buying up all the single player games.

SilverWF

The REAL issue is only: here is new PAID DLC with a new HEALER class. To force you all buy this we would NERF all your previous healers (mostly Templars). Buy DLC, buy exp scrolls, buy mount training, lvl your Wardens and enjoy our p2w.

Pulque

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm going to type out my feeling on Monday. I would do so today, but I'm going to wait because I don't want to write something down that I will regret.

For now though, I'll say this.

The reason I am very disappointed with the upcoming Morrowind update is not because of nerfs. Nope, all ZoS's patch notes have been for the past year+ is just a big fat compilation of nerfs that have me dreading them instead of looking forward to reading them. I'm rather numbed by them actually.

It's not because I am jealous of the Warden. I'm not going to resentful that other classes have interesting aspects that set them part even though mine no longer has.

It's not necessarily because I will have to spam heavy attacks next patch and I honestly don't think exchanging two spell power jewelry enchants for two cost reduction ones somehow makes me a better player or the game more interesting to play.

It's ZoS's approach. I keep hearing how ZoS wants to make other class healers viable. Well, there was an alternative way you could have gone about doing that ZoS: give the other classes something unique they bring to the table. But nope. Instead nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf, always a nerf.

What it boils down to is this. I have played a Templar since Launch and actually cared about the class. When I think back to all the interesting game mechanics that I once had that set me apart from the other classes and the generic homogenized husk of its former self now, I just want to throw my computer out the window. It anyone thinking I am exaggerating than they have not played a Templar since launch and cared about the class.

And for what? All in a futile effort to counterbalance the Power Creep that come from generic and insipid flat power buffs we all get from the Champion System. We have gained so much power from nuking Zombies in Skyreach Catacombs that ZoS has felt compelled they have no choice but to take away the actual power in our classes. That's a terrible change.

/bow

Everything I was wanting to say but am still too damn angry (and sad) to be able to do so without risking a forum infraction of some kind.

The last paragraph really identifies the core issue here CP.

Now, maybe ZoS are being Machiavellian here - and the current iteration is so deliberately bad (because it would be impossible for it to be this bad by accident - the universe is not that perverse) so it has us all clamouring for the real culprit - CP - to be dealt with once and for all, and then when ZoS announce the removal of CP and we complain they'll say "Ah but you wanted them gone".

And to be honest, if the only way ZoS can balance the classes, while retaining distinctive class elements, is to remove CP - or roll them back to CP 160, then right now I'd take that. Because a CP cap of 160 would be infinitely better than what is on the PTS right now.

All The Best

VycDarkshadow

Sigtric wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Lastly, we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Sneak attacks no longer grant a bonus to Critical Damage when used against other players. Sneak attacks will continue to guarantee a Critical Strike and stun the target, and will also still grant a bonus to Critical Damage when used against monsters.

What?

People were tired of being crit-killed by invisible Nightblades. Sounds simple enough to me.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm going to type out my feeling on Monday. I would do so today, but I'm going to wait because I don't want to write something down that I will regret.

For now though, I'll say this.

The reason I am very disappointed with the upcoming Morrowind update is not because of nerfs. Nope, all ZoS's patch notes have been for the past year+ is just a big fat compilation of nerfs that have me dreading them instead of looking forward to reading them. I'm rather numbed by them actually.

It's not because I am jealous of the Warden. I'm not going to resentful that other classes have interesting aspects that set them part even though mine no longer has.

It's not necessarily because I will have to spam heavy attacks next patch and I honestly don't think exchanging two spell power jewelry enchants for two cost reduction ones somehow makes me a better player or the game more interesting to play.

It's ZoS's approach. I keep hearing how ZoS wants to make other class healers viable. Well, there was an alternative way you could have gone about doing that ZoS: give the other classes something unique they bring to the table. But nope. Instead nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf, always a nerf.

What it boils down to is this. I have played a Templar since Launch and actually cared about the class. When I think back to all the interesting game mechanics that I once had that set me apart from the other classes and the generic homogenized husk of its former self now, I just want to throw my computer out the window. It anyone thinking I am exaggerating than they have not played a Templar since launch and cared about the class.

And for what? All in a futile effort to counterbalance the Power Creep that come from generic and insipid flat power buffs we all get from the Champion System. We have gained so much power from nuking Zombies in Skyreach Catacombs that ZoS has felt compelled they have no choice but to take away the actual power in our classes. That's a terrible change.

It really reminds me of an MMO I use to play called Marvel Super Heroes or something. Launched early. Wasn't ready. Management changed. As a result they added a bunch of things with no real plan going forward. they weren't exactly sure what they wanted to do and as people changed, plans changed.

So new systems replaced old systems. Which then had to be redone again because they clashed with a new system, or resulted in other systems clashing.

Now being a comic dork I thought the game was great and is still fun. But as a result the game felt like it went back much more then it went forward. Constant nerfs, constant redesigns.

But I see so much of these games In each other. And it just feels like a lack of vision. Or no long term plan with a way to Get there. Well nothing outside of, try make cool stuff and things for people buy.

nagarjunna

Joy_Division wrote: »

What it boils down to is this. I have played a Templar since Launch and actually cared about the class. When I think back to all the interesting game mechanics that I once had that set me apart from the other classes and the generic homogenized husk of its former self now, I just want to throw my computer out the window. It anyone thinking I am exaggerating than they have not played a Templar since launch and cared about the class.

And for what? All in a futile effort to counterbalance the Power Creep that come from generic and insipid flat power buffs we all get from the Champion System. We have gained so much power from nuking Zombies in Skyreach Catacombs that ZoS has felt compelled they have no choice but to take away the actual power in our classes. That's a terrible change.

I agree, been playing my magplar since beta and the sandpaper and power-tool approach they have taken to remove any semblance of individuality is sad. All because everyone can play any role and of course the inevitable power creep stuff that goes with it.

Gomumon

jaye63 wrote: »

With the proposed changes... you have effectively forced me to start over with all of them. And ZOS thinks that's going to make me want to buy Morrowind or spend ANY money here? ROTFLMBO! What it makes me want to do is quit MMOs altogether and go back to single player where I dont have to worry that in a couple of months I'm going to have to start over again.

I've thought of this many times myself. "Games are supposed to be fun yet, here I am, doing my daily in-game chores so I can get *** to be strong enough in this game to have fun...someday." If I could explore Skyrim with my wife and two of my friends, I would've never touched ESO.

You hit the nail on the head though. They're creating more work for their players to avoid doing more work themselves.

Can anyone suggest any online co-op semi/open-world adventure or RPGs? Sitting here thinking, that's all I really want: to play content I enjoy with my friends with a character I can permanently progress and customize.

Ashtaris

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm going to type out my feeling on Monday. I would do so today, but I'm going to wait because I don't want to write something down that I will regret.

For now though, I'll say this.

The reason I am very disappointed with the upcoming Morrowind update is not because of nerfs. Nope, all ZoS's patch notes have been for the past year+ is just a big fat compilation of nerfs that have me dreading them instead of looking forward to reading them. I'm rather numbed by them actually.

It's not because I am jealous of the Warden. I'm not going to resentful that other classes have interesting aspects that set them part even though mine no longer has.

It's not necessarily because I will have to spam heavy attacks next patch and I honestly don't think exchanging two spell power jewelry enchants for two cost reduction ones somehow makes me a better player or the game more interesting to play.

It's ZoS's approach. I keep hearing how ZoS wants to make other class healers viable. Well, there was an alternative way you could have gone about doing that ZoS: give the other classes something unique they bring to the table. But nope. Instead nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf, always a nerf.

What it boils down to is this. I have played a Templar since Launch and actually cared about the class. When I think back to all the interesting game mechanics that I once had that set me apart from the other classes and the generic homogenized husk of its former self now, I just want to throw my computer out the window. It anyone thinking I am exaggerating than they have not played a Templar since launch and cared about the class.

And for what? All in a futile effort to counterbalance the Power Creep that come from generic and insipid flat power buffs we all get from the Champion System. We have gained so much power from nuking Zombies in Skyreach Catacombs that ZoS has felt compelled they have no choice but to take away the actual power in our classes. That's a terrible change.

Give that man a cigar! He totally gets it and also the same reason I hate the changes for the Templar class. Instead of working hard and giving each class a unique ability for healing, the devs took the lazy way out and nerfed the main healing class instead. It's like giving everyone in class a gold star so they feel good about themselves instead of trying to excell at something. I had to laugh at Gina's comment about what they did to Repentence as being an "adjustment". More like "make another useless skill that most healers will never keep on their bar".

LithiumFlower

Templars made great healers because:

1. It was the only dedicated healing class with healing abilities.
2. It was great at resource sustain and support.

We get that you want to nerf resource sustain at the root and hope that somehow brings balance to PvP and the ceiling down on PvE DPS. Fine.

The answer doesn't lie in gutting the entire tree and making it useless compared to what's available elsewhere.

Everyone gets access to healing through restoration staff and major mending - what do templars get that is unique in their dedicated healing kit?

1. Breath of Life - it's half as useful as healing ward (resto staff) for emergency healing with the nerf.
2. Healing Ritual - lol, healing springs (resto staff) is far more useful as an aoe mass heal.
3. Purifying Ritual - Purge is better at cleansing, spell that shall not be named is better as a hot, and now it's no longer even a source of major mending.
4. Restoring Aura - Radiant Aura is a unique source of magicka steal and should remain so. Repentence has no useful utility any more.

Compare with the other classes:

DKs have a dedicated tanking skill line:

None of the of the skills can be replaced by others from generic sources. No other source of major brutality, major sorcery for the whole group. No other source of shielding everyone etc.

Sorcerors get a dedicated summoning line:

No other source of getting a HUGE ASS MASSIVE SHIELD.
No other source of summons that do plenty of damage and healing.

Nightblades get a Shadow Skill line:

No other source of instant stealth/evasion. No other sources of instant teleport independent of LoS.

These trees are essential in defining their classes. Why is it that the templar tree can not do that in any meaningful way?

How is it justifiable for every class to get access to better skills at doing what a whole class tree is dedicated to doing uniquely. Templars don't have access to escaping like Nightblades, chaining like DKs, or shielding like sorcs.

Yes, I support giving access to stamina and magicka restoring capability to generic healing, just like templars have access to lesser counterparts of unique class abilities.

My suggestion would be:

Take the useless ability from Fighter's Guild - Blood Fountain and give it staminasteal. Now everyone has access to restoring stamina and pugs can function with a generic healer.

Radiant Aura should be reworked to provide magicka steal and stamina steal.

Repentence should likewise be reworked to minor protection, magickasteal and staminasteal but only to the caster.

Make them toggles that reduce max magicka by 5%.

Mystic orbs should do dmg and restore magicka and healing orbs should heal and restore stamina. Reduce the resource return to keep it in line with the new resource low meta and viable options for generic healers.

Let shards function like they do now. Both have unique utility for different situations and should remain unique sources of resource support available to templars. Shared cool down with orbs is no longer a problem problem keeps resource return under control.

Breath of Life nerf should be reverted. Maybe you can further reduce the number of targets (granted its already pretty minimal on live) but it shouldn't be less useful than Matriarch heal or healing ward.

Healing Ritual needs a buff while we're at it: one morph with Cast time and more healing and one morph that's instant cast mass heal over time similar to rapid regen.

Purifying Ritual can keep minor mending. Give the Restoring Focus morph major mending.

Remembrance caster only nerf should be reverted. It's an essential PvP healing tool. The unique damage protection should be replaced with major protection so that it's at least still as useful as Sleet Storm while not stacking with other sources.

With changes in this vein, templars have a skill tree that has useful skills that can show up on their bars in preference to the generic options yet nothing is out of reach of generic healers and support players either. Nothing can double stack and be OP.

And there is still space for a secondary support class to develop without making templars irrelevant.

Didgerion

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, we’d like to address a couple outstanding issues that we’ve seen brought up over the past couple days. We understand many of you are upset about the change with Repentance, and we’d like to explain why we made this change. Previously, Templars were able to restore the entire stamina bar for them and their whole group. In this upcoming update, we’re really focusing on resource recovery, so this ability needed to be adjusted. Additionally, running out of resources essentially provides a cooldown into a game that is currently without one, and restoring your group’s stamina through Repentance goes against these goals. Repentance does still heal the whole group for a large amount, and additionally, has no cost to boot. Now that resources are going to be more important, free abilities are quite powerful.

Regarding Necrotic Orb and it now sharing a cooldown with Spear Shards, there are a few key differences between these two abilities we’d like to touch on first. Spear Shards is significantly cheaper and easier to target. Additionally, with the Luminous Shards morph, the Templar can also get this resource restore for himself. This change was ultimately made to make all classes viable healers in concordance with the reduction to resources. If Templars were the only healers that could restore resources after these changes, they would be outrageously superior healers, and we want all classes to be viable in some way. With that being said, despite the changes we’ve made, Templars are still the best class to heal. We just had to make some adjustments so they weren’t far beyond the other classes.

Lastly, the Ultimate ability we called out as having 28 meters is Rite of Passage, and that should’ve been 20 meters. Apologies for the typo and confusion! For what it’s worth, the Warden’s heal is only 8 meters.

Hi @ZOS_GinaBruno

These changes does not look good Gina - that's huge changes - and you play with people's feelings here.
The Templar's goal is not to be the best healers - but to have an identity.
It is a unique class now with very cool abilities - your are taking away the templar's identity. Yes they will remain best healers - but it is not about being the best healer.

I don't play a templar myself but it hurts seeing how you are taking away the templar's identity.

You just need an extra layer of balancing for PVP. Having Battle spirit is a good example but not enough.

You should implement a skill spirit layer system and nerf the skills that outperform in pvp.
Is repentance to strong in PVP? - yes! then put a 50% skill spirit on it and let it return twice as less resources there.
Is vigor too strong in PVP? put a 50% cost increase spirit on it in pvp.

It is impossible to balance PVE and PVP with the same formula.

Please leave skills alone - tune them down where they really outperform! Please!!

aeowulf

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, we’d like to address a couple outstanding issues that we’ve seen brought up over the past couple days. We understand many of you are upset about the change with Repentance, and we’d like to explain why we made this change. Previously, Templars were able to restore the entire stamina bar for them and their whole group. In this upcoming update, we’re really focusing on resource recovery, so this ability needed to be adjusted. Additionally, running out of resources essentially provides a cooldown into a game that is currently without one, and restoring your group’s stamina through Repentance goes against these goals. Repentance does still heal the whole group for a large amount, and additionally, has no cost to boot. Now that resources are going to be more important, free abilities are quite powerful.

Regarding Necrotic Orb and it now sharing a cooldown with Spear Shards, there are a few key differences between these two abilities we’d like to touch on first. Spear Shards is significantly cheaper and easier to target. Additionally, with the Luminous Shards morph, the Templar can also get this resource restore for himself. This change was ultimately made to make all classes viable healers in concordance with the reduction to resources. If Templars were the only healers that could restore resources after these changes, they would be outrageously superior healers, and we want all classes to be viable in some way. With that being said, despite the changes we’ve made, Templars are still the best class to heal. We just had to make some adjustments so they weren’t far beyond the other classes.

Lastly, the Ultimate ability we called out as having 28 meters is Rite of Passage, and that should’ve been 20 meters. Apologies for the typo and confusion! For what it’s worth, the Warden’s heal is only 8 meters.

This feedback is what we ( I ) really like to read, something a little more in depth than 'it's over performing.

Any chance we can have a similar write up for Siphoning Attacks?

The_Undefined

I've posted on the PTS, but seeing how there's actually dev responses here, I'll post here as well.

I don't know a lot about this game. I have not played since launch. I've played this game for under a year, June last year 2016.

Here's what I do know, I read over and over again ZOS wants to "raise the floor" and "lower the ceiling." Well, I'm probably as low on the floor as can be (no vet dungeon sets, world sets.. no real set at all). I've never felt weaker in this game than I have after Homestead. I read people complaining their class sucks b/c they're running under 30k dps while I"m desperately trying to pull 10k dps following rotations I read from the elite top players. I get it, this all sounds like personal problems, but with the nerfs they keep rolling out, I'm only getting more and more disheartened to even try to figure out how to really play this game well. Shoot... regular pve monsters are giving me a run for my money.

All in all, you're taking away skills that I've only recently come to really learn about and depend on only to throw everything up in the air once more and leave me as a newer player, with extremely limited understanding and resources of this game to figure out all b/c you want me to feel stronger and the stronger to feel weaker? What's the point of the game? I work my butt off only to get back to where I was?

ZOS, you're balances are bad. If you want to bring players on a more level playing field, bring up the floor first. Do one before the other, because right now I just feel punished for paying and playing your game.

Silver_Strider

This was the same question everyone asked when it came to DK/Sorc/NB healers since the start of the game so you'll have to forgive me if I have little sympathy for these changes.

Being the only viable stamina battery in the game wasn't a niche, it was a monopoly as the only viable Healer for end game. No other Healer could compete against the level of support Templar supplied and now that it's no longer the only class that can be a total support battery, people are getting all upset that their guaranteed Raid spot is now up for grabs. I do feel BoL changes was a bit much but good healers will adapt so I'm not going to cry for it. Even after these changes Shards> Orbs in a number of ways. It gives back resources to the Templar, which is a great bonus as they do tend to struggle with sustain periodically, it costs less than Orbs and it can be placed where it needs to be on demand, unlike Orbs that are slow to travel and are at the mercy of the environment to ensure they reach their intended target. As for Repentance, it's now just a resource tool for Stamplar with a utility heal for the group now, which give Stamplar a small niche utility heal and I feel that's a good thing

Don't go complaining about having to relearn your class again because that applies to nearly everyone after these changes. DK's are going to have to learn how to sustain themselves after the heavy nerfs to Helping Hands, Battle Roar and Igneous Shield, Warden is new so it will take time before people learn how to properly play that class in a competitive setting, and NBs have to learn to function with the nerfed Siphoning Attacks. The only class that needs a nerf now is Sorc but I doubt it's happening anytime soon because Sorc has become the love child of ZOS for some reason.

"But what's the point of bringing a Templar Healer over XYZ?"
I already covered Shards. Then we have an AoE Purge that heals and does damage, Backlash debuff (Stamina morph or not, it's still useful to have up), powerful burst heals, AoE minor magicka steal, Nova. Oh yeah, you guys are totally useless now. #DeleteTemplar amiright?

I'll just be here on my NB because we offer SO much utility like..............
................off heals? I guess?

TL:DR - Grow the f*** up.

technohic

People be trolling. Basically they are saying that its about time they can get invited as heals because templars are not special any more. So when do they lose their CC and get a lack of roots so a templar can be a tank rather than making DKs far and away the best? What about escapes like cloak and streak? You know; all those things Templars were told they pretty much can't have because they have the heals and how they don't want to homogenize the classes.

I actually see nerfs to Templars making them "not special" and to NBs ganking and siphoning making them definitely not special. Nerfs to DKs utimate and just resource management in general, not to mention their blocking for tanking. I see nerfs to make every class "not special" and its going to come down to playing sorc or warden or heavy attacks or all of the above. This sounds like great gameplay

Lore_lai

Silver_Strider wrote: »

As for Repentance, it's now just a resource tool for Stamplar with a utility heal for the group now, which give Stamplar a small niche utility heal and I feel that's a good thing

Except it's a utility/resource tool for only ONE Templar. Only ONE Templar can benefit from it AND you need to kill something first.
Again - I ask you - when will you be in a position as a DK/NB/Sorc that only ONE will able to use their sustain tool if there are others around? All the while having the worst in-class sustain passive - a big whooping 4% cost reduction - oh boy....

Silver_Strider

Lore_lai wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

As for Repentance, it's now just a resource tool for Stamplar with a utility heal for the group now, which give Stamplar a small niche utility heal and I feel that's a good thing

Except it's a utility/resource tool for only ONE Templar. Only ONE Templar can benefit from it AND you need to kill something first.
Again - I ask you - when will you be in a position as a DK/NB/Sorc that only ONE will able to use their sustain tool if there are others around? All the while having the worst in-class sustain passive - a big whooping 4% cost reduction - oh boy....

Except that this has always been the case for Templar and thus is unrelated to the patch at all, so this is a strawman argument at best, and a troll post at worst. Taking the Stamina return for the group away was the best thing for Stamplars as now they no longer have to worry about the Healer using Repentance and just need to worry about other Stamplars (or Templar Tanks) using it, reducing the number of people that could screw the Stamplar by a great deal.

Also, because apparently I wasn't clear enough or your reading comprehension is that poor, I said Repentance is still a utility HEAL ability as the group heal component of Repentance has not been altered, only the stamina return. Another thing you failed to notice is that Shards now return resources to the Templar themselves as well as the individual that uses the synergy and since the synergy returns based off the user's max stat vs. the Templar's, it doesn't matter if a Stamplar or Magplar is throwing the shard. It becomes a magic dump that Stamplars can use to restore their stamina, helping their sustainability greatly. This patch has turned Stamplar into a great support DPS as a result by giving them tools to help the group in both sustainability and survivability.

Magic builds have a plethora of sets to restore magic and Magplar still has Minor Magicka Steal from Radiant Aura since they'll no longer need to morph for Repentance, as well as Channeled Focus to help with sustain. Throw in Shards and Magplar is going to be just fine in sustainability as well.

Oh, keep it coming, I'm loving this.

Nifty2g

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, we’d like to address a couple outstanding issues that we’ve seen brought up over the past couple days. We understand many of you are upset about the change with Repentance, and we’d like to explain why we made this change. Previously, Templars were able to restore the entire stamina bar for them and their whole group. In this upcoming update, we’re really focusing on resource recovery, so this ability needed to be adjusted. Additionally, running out of resources essentially provides a cooldown into a game that is currently without one, and restoring your group’s stamina through Repentance goes against these goals. Repentance does still heal the whole group for a large amount, and additionally, has no cost to boot. Now that resources are going to be more important, free abilities are quite powerful.

Regarding Necrotic Orb and it now sharing a cooldown with Spear Shards, there are a few key differences between these two abilities we’d like to touch on first. Spear Shards is significantly cheaper and easier to target. Additionally, with the Luminous Shards morph, the Templar can also get this resource restore for himself. This change was ultimately made to make all classes viable healers in concordance with the reduction to resources. If Templars were the only healers that could restore resources after these changes, they would be outrageously superior healers, and we want all classes to be viable in some way. With that being said, despite the changes we’ve made, Templars are still the best class to heal. We just had to make some adjustments so they weren’t far beyond the other classes.

Lastly, the Ultimate ability we called out as having 28 meters is Rite of Passage, and that should’ve been 20 meters. Apologies for the typo and confusion! For what it’s worth, the Warden’s heal is only 8 meters.

@ZOS_GinaBruno This isn't aimed at you but whoever said that Repentance is a "free" cast, it's really not... you have to cast multiple skills to kill a target to make use of that skill. The reward of repentance is to kill a target and HELP your group sustain more by draining the bodies to keep them going. Why on earth would that even remotely be thought about to be removed from the game is beyond me, that is one of the most unique things ESO has.

I understand necrotic orb and spear shards doing the same thing, but I think they should not share the same cooldown and different morphs should do different things, none of this shared cooldown thing and none of this whichever pool is lower.

I agree Templars are the best to heal in cause of Breath of Life but everything else is just a slap in the face to Templars and a slap in the face for groups wanting synergies.

Cristata

As someone who'se played on/off since beta, overall pretty casual, as a templar healer its upsetting to hear some of this news...but I'm sure I'll adapt and be able to change things up.


Unfortunately these last few week I just finished working on getting a 5 piece Healer set and upgrading it to legendary. It gave me minor mending along with major.

Hopefully the 5 piece set bonus of the Healer's Habit is changed from "gives minor mending"; to "gives major mending"

Lore_lai

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Except that this has always been the case for Templar and thus is unrelated to the patch at all, so this is a strawman argument at best, and a troll post at worst. Taking the Stamina return for the group away was the best thing for Stamplars as now they no longer have to worry about the Healer using Repentance and just need to worry about other Stamplars (or Templar Tanks) using it, reducing the number of people that could screw the Stamplar by a great deal.

Also, because apparently I wasn't clear enough or your reading comprehension is that poor, I said Repentance is still a utility HEAL ability as the group heal component of Repentance has not been altered, only the stamina return. Another thing you failed to notice is that Shards now return resources to the Templar themselves as well as the individual that uses the synergy and since the synergy returns based off the user's max stat vs. the Templar's, it doesn't matter if a Stamplar or Magplar is throwing the shard. It becomes a magic dump that Stamplars can use to restore their stamina, helping their sustainability greatly. This patch has turned Stamplar into a great support DPS as a result by giving them tools to help the group in both sustainability and survivability.

Magic builds have a plethora of sets to restore magic and Magplar still has Minor Magicka Steal from Radiant Aura since they'll no longer need to morph for Repentance, as well as Channeled Focus to help with sustain. Throw in Shards and Magplar is going to be just fine in sustainability as well.

Oh, keep it coming, I'm loving this.

Why the tone? You seem to be quite hostile and borderline on personal insults - if this is how you think a constructive conversation should go then I think you need to re-evaluate that.

This has not always been the case for Templar. Now if another Stamplar uses Repent, they know they will not rob their other Templar ally completely of sustain. Or a Magicka Templar for that matter.
That will no longer be a thing next patch.
It will boil down to who gets the privilege to use their sustain skill.

And are you seriously saying that Luminous Shards will be good stamina sustain for a Stamplar? Seriously?
That makes me think you don't know how that works.
Say you are in PvP - as a Stamplar, your Magicka pool will already be used up by skills like Rune and Purify. Say you even have enough Magicka to cast Luminous Shards - an ally activates the synergy - you know what happens? You get *magicka* back then. Because chances are your *magicka* pool is the one that will proc the return.

So yes - tell me more how a Stamplar will sustain their stamina through Luminous Shards.

Honestly at this point I kinda think you don't even PvP, or you don't understand how that changes will interact with sustain, so I doubt I want to continue having this conversation, no hard feelings!
Have a good day!

Jollygoodusername

The current class system is too simplified to begin with.

GallantGuardian

As far as repentance goes... why not just make it the opposite of radiant aura... give it a stamina steal rather then having to. Siphon dead bodies..just have it be an aura around us

LithiumFlower wrote: »

Templars made great healers because:

1. It was the only dedicated healing class with healing abilities.
2. It was great at resource sustain and support.

We get that you want to nerf resource sustain at the root and hope that somehow brings balance to PvP and the ceiling down on PvE DPS. Fine.

The answer doesn't lie in gutting the entire tree and making it useless compared to what's available elsewhere.

Everyone gets access to healing through restoration staff and major mending - what do templars get that is unique in their dedicated healing kit?

1. Breath of Life - it's half as useful as healing ward (resto staff) for emergency healing with the nerf.
2. Healing Ritual - lol, healing springs (resto staff) is far more useful as an aoe mass heal.
3. Purifying Ritual - Purge is better at cleansing, spell that shall not be named is better as a hot, and now it's no longer even a source of major mending.
4. Restoring Aura - Radiant Aura is a unique source of magicka steal and should remain so. Repentence has no useful utility any more.

Compare with the other classes:

DKs have a dedicated tanking skill line:

None of the of the skills can be replaced by others from generic sources. No other source of major brutality, major sorcery for the whole group. No other source of shielding everyone etc.

Sorcerors get a dedicated summoning line:

No other source of getting a HUGE ASS MASSIVE SHIELD.
No other source of summons that do plenty of damage and healing.

Nightblades get a Shadow Skill line:

No other source of instant stealth/evasion. No other sources of instant teleport independent of LoS.

These trees are essential in defining their classes. Why is it that the templar tree can not do that in any meaningful way?

How is it justifiable for every class to get access to better skills at doing what a whole class tree is dedicated to doing uniquely. Templars don't have access to escaping like Nightblades, chaining like DKs, or shielding like sorcs.

Yes, I support giving access to stamina and magicka restoring capability to generic healing, just like templars have access to lesser counterparts of unique class abilities.

My suggestion would be:

Take the useless ability from Fighter's Guild - Blood Fountain and give it staminasteal. Now everyone has access to restoring stamina and pugs can function with a generic healer.

Radiant Aura should be reworked to provide magicka steal and stamina steal.

Repentence should likewise be reworked to minor protection, magickasteal and staminasteal but only to the caster.

Make them toggles that reduce max magicka by 5%.

Mystic orbs should do dmg and restore magicka and healing orbs should heal and restore stamina. Reduce the resource return to keep it in line with the new resource low meta and viable options for generic healers.

Let shards function like they do now. Both have unique utility for different situations and should remain unique sources of resource support available to templars. Shared cool down with orbs is no longer a problem problem keeps resource return under control.

Breath of Life nerf should be reverted. Maybe you can further reduce the number of targets (granted its already pretty minimal on live) but it shouldn't be less useful than Matriarch heal or healing ward.

Healing Ritual needs a buff while we're at it: one morph with Cast time and more healing and one morph that's instant cast mass heal over time similar to rapid regen.

Purifying Ritual can keep minor mending. Give the Restoring Focus morph major mending.

Remembrance caster only nerf should be reverted. It's an essential PvP healing tool. The unique damage protection should be replaced with major protection so that it's at least still as useful as Sleet Storm while not stacking with other sources.

With changes in this vein, templars have a skill tree that has useful skills that can show up on their bars in preference to the generic options yet nothing is out of reach of generic healers and support players either. Nothing can double stack and be OP.

And there is still space for a secondary support class to develop without making templars irrelevant.

I like what you posted here all good changes allows templars to be in a better spot dps/healer/tank ... only thing i want left is for them to either make a multitarget root available for templars and a pull... i honestly feel like silver leash should pull targets to us.... and trapping webs should root targets in place... that way all classes have a way to access those types of abilities...

But really id much rather them bring back blinding light instead of a root... that ability sounds so amazing for a tank it should have never gone away..just make it useless in pvp but useful in pve...

Casterial

I recently transformed my Templar from Stamplar to Magplar PvE healer and can heal in PVP. I do not use any of the skills nerfed or changed, I use the other morphs. However, I could see the major downside to everything here. But there are some plusses. Give it a chance, maybe ZOS will see that they're pretty much garbage in Cyrodiil? I mean compared to meta-DK, meta-NB, or Sorc's who are 2x better than any toon currently.

You shouldn't nerf to make another class better. Please look at how WOW released classes.

jaye63

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’d like to provide some clarity on why we made some of the changes we did, specifically to the Templar. Reading about some of these changes can be a bit jarring at first, and we highly suggest you to log onto the PTS to give it a try first-hand; this may help you see how everything works together and in context.

First, we want to reiterate why we’re making these global changes to abilities and resource management (and most of this will sound very familiar if you read the PTS patch notes). Our combat system features fast-paced action where resource management plays a large part in performing effectively. Player abilities in ESO specifically do not have cooldowns for this very reason - resource management is a core pillar of the system. Due to the number of balance changes we’ve made over time, this core pillar of resource management has become trivialized in that it’s become easier than ever to have nearly infinite sustainability while still being fully maximized for damage. The overall goal here is to have a combat system that reinforces decision making and resource management.

With that being said, one of the main concerns we want to address is the worry that we’re nerfing Templars in order to make the Warden a stronger healing class, particularly by nerfing Major Mending and giving it to Wardens. We’ve made it so all classes have to meet conditional requirements to gain Major Mending. DK’s need to have their damage shields up, Wardens have to heal low health targets, and Resto Staff users have to complete a fully charged heavy attack. It’s also worth noting that we’re planning on adjusting the Warden passive, Accelerated Growth, because it’s currently too easy to keep it active for long periods of time.

If you’re worried that there’s no reason to play a Templar over a Warden, or any other class, keep in mind that Templars have a stronger single target burst heal that’s easier to aim (Rushed Ceremony), they have a faster healing spammable ability with Healing Ritual, and their Ultimate heal hits targets in a 28m radius instead of 8 meters. In addition, have also have a free heal with Repentance, can cleanse allies with the Cleansing Ritual synergy and can remove 5 effects from themselves. Rushed Ceremony is also still the strongest heal in ESO, so Templars still have a lot going for them.

Lastly, we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments. This is one of the reasons we added CC immunities to monsters; when ESO originally launched, you could knock the same mudcrab down over and over. The balance changes we made in this update are aimed at making gameplay more interesting in all areas of the game.

Again, we encourage everyone to hop on the PTS and give these changes a try in both PvE and PvP scenarios rather than just reading about the changes. Once you’ve had a chance to try everything out, we’d love to hear your feedback about what you played.

Well... considering the drop tables contain several items with several possibilities each, doing this not only messes up healing, it makes the grind even more grindy.

Troneon

Illurian wrote: »

Also, I find it hilarious that the strongest class at the moment (mag sorcs) were completely untouched, while everything else suffered significant nerfs.

Been happening since forever...

Blackfyre20

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

As for Repentance, it's now just a resource tool for Stamplar with a utility heal for the group now, which give Stamplar a small niche utility heal and I feel that's a good thing

Except it's a utility/resource tool for only ONE Templar. Only ONE Templar can benefit from it AND you need to kill something first.
Again - I ask you - when will you be in a position as a DK/NB/Sorc that only ONE will able to use their sustain tool if there are others around? All the while having the worst in-class sustain passive - a big whooping 4% cost reduction - oh boy....

Except that this has always been the case for Templar and thus is unrelated to the patch at all, so this is a strawman argument at best, and a troll post at worst. Taking the Stamina return for the group away was the best thing for Stamplars as now they no longer have to worry about the Healer using Repentance and just need to worry about other Stamplars (or Templar Tanks) using it, reducing the number of people that could screw the Stamplar by a great deal.

@Silver_Strider I don't think you understand what this skill does on live...

Casterial

Troneon wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

Also, I find it hilarious that the strongest class at the moment (mag sorcs) were completely untouched, while everything else suffered significant nerfs.

Been happening since forever...

LMAO I didn't even noticed. Sorc's are 2x stronger than any class, but they wern't nerfed? Time to make one. Maybe Wrobel plays one.

Elsterchen

@ZOS_GinaBruno ... I am sorry to say, but really do not get these mechanics.

[spoiler]Essence Drain.
With Restoration Staff equipped: You gain Major Mending for 1.5/3 seconds after completing a fully-charged Heavy Attak, increasing your healing done by 25%.
You also heal yourself or a nearby ally to the target for 15/30% of the damage inflicted by the final hit of a fully-charged Heavy Attack."[/spoiler]

Could you please explain to me how to add major mending to my 20/12m healing ultimate (channeling time is 4-6s) OR at least to healing ritual (cast time 1,5s) during combat situations?

Silver_Strider

Lore_lai wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Except that this has always been the case for Templar and thus is unrelated to the patch at all, so this is a strawman argument at best, and a troll post at worst. Taking the Stamina return for the group away was the best thing for Stamplars as now they no longer have to worry about the Healer using Repentance and just need to worry about other Stamplars (or Templar Tanks) using it, reducing the number of people that could screw the Stamplar by a great deal.

Also, because apparently I wasn't clear enough or your reading comprehension is that poor, I said Repentance is still a utility HEAL ability as the group heal component of Repentance has not been altered, only the stamina return. Another thing you failed to notice is that Shards now return resources to the Templar themselves as well as the individual that uses the synergy and since the synergy returns based off the user's max stat vs. the Templar's, it doesn't matter if a Stamplar or Magplar is throwing the shard. It becomes a magic dump that Stamplars can use to restore their stamina, helping their sustainability greatly. This patch has turned Stamplar into a great support DPS as a result by giving them tools to help the group in both sustainability and survivability.

Magic builds have a plethora of sets to restore magic and Magplar still has Minor Magicka Steal from Radiant Aura since they'll no longer need to morph for Repentance, as well as Channeled Focus to help with sustain. Throw in Shards and Magplar is going to be just fine in sustainability as well.

Oh, keep it coming, I'm loving this.

Why the tone? You seem to be quite hostile and borderline on personal insults - if this is how you think a constructive conversation should go then I think you need to re-evaluate that.

This has not always been the case for Templar. Now if another Stamplar uses Repent, they know they will not rob their other Templar ally completely of sustain. Or a Magicka Templar for that matter.
That will no longer be a thing next patch.
It will boil down to who gets the privilege to use their sustain skill.

And are you seriously saying that Luminous Shards will be good stamina sustain for a Stamplar? Seriously?
That makes me think you don't know how that works.
Say you are in PvP - as a Stamplar, your Magicka pool will already be used up by skills like Rune and Purify. Say you even have enough Magicka to cast Luminous Shards - an ally activates the synergy - you know what happens? You get *magicka* back then. Because chances are your *magicka* pool is the one that will proc the return.

So yes - tell me more how a Stamplar will sustain their stamina through Luminous Shards.

Honestly at this point I kinda think you don't even PvP, or you don't understand how that changes will interact with sustain, so I doubt I want to continue having this conversation, no hard feelings!
Have a good day!

The tone is tough love because it's usually the only way to get thru to people so they can actually digest what I'm saying after they've gotten upset by something in patch notes. Been in WAY too many forums in which your statements are just brushed over without a single word you said getting actually processed at all. Take from that what you will but I find it fairly effective in defusing outrage in general.

As for your post, my post was more directed at the PvE side of the game rather than the PvP side. While repentance does currently give everyone in the group stamina back, you also have to understand that there are times when using repentance can be wasteful as well. Since we can't see the resources of our allies, it's impossible to see if they need the stamina or not, whereas a Stamplar knows when they need the stamina and can use Repentance. It might not be the greatest change for Repentance but I'm not crying over it either. If anything, I look at it in a similar light to DKs tanks and Warhorn, in that someone used Warhorn before the DK and now they need to waste their Warhorn to recover resources. It's unfair but that's the breaks.

As for the PvP side of things, well you said it yourself. Templars need magic for Rune and Purify so what's wrong if shards give back magic for those skills? If your magic is that low that you get it over your equally low stamina, chances are you're going to die regardless as you're out of both resources already and are probably on the verge of getting CC'd and killed? mean, you would need an ally with you to even pop the synergy for Shards for this situation to even occur and if you're THAT desperate for resources while you have an ally with you, you are still likely to die but at least your ally has a chance to finish them off and rez you since they recovered their resources from your shard. Or, if you have enough Stamina to fight, why would you need it? Another thing is, your hypothetical situation isn't just a Templar specific one either. NB that doesn't have enough resources to cast SA, Sorcerer that can't use Dark Deal, DK that can't use Igneous for Helping Hands or an Ultimate for Battle Roar. How would a Templar not being able to get back Stamina from shards be any different to those situations in which X class is out of resources and can't use their recovery ability?