What's the point of running Templar healers now? (PTS natch potes)

OutLaw_Nynx

Hope zos never ever does this NDA *** again. You're only hurting yourself at this point, zos. I find it really lame you toss Gina to the wolves with this crap.

Drdeath20

Major mending to minor us whatever. Im not even that mad about that. Ill just deal with it.

Losing repentance as a group utility is crushing. Makes this morph alternative significantly weaker.

Now this with shards too after they already removed the stun from it and took away my ability to be a competitive dd last update

sneakymitchell

I'm sorry this is getting ridiculous and has anyone play the PTS yet?

Rainwhisper

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Lastly, we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments. This is one of the reasons we added CC immunities to monsters; when ESO originally launched, you could knock the same mudcrab down over and over. The balance changes we made in this update are aimed at making gameplay more interesting in all areas of the game.

As a PvE-only player, I don't see how this is possible. Occasionally I will read a PvP post about the skills they use, and I don't even understand the shorthand they are using, much less the rotation. I know that my fantasy of a PvE-only game will never come to pass in any MMO, but I don't think the idea of unified game mechanics is a viable development model.

Also, I think I may have been the only PvE player who leveled by using CC mechanics to manage fights. Made perfect sense to me, but apparently everyone else just waded in and AoE'd.

technohic

Banana wrote: »

There will be a few more revisions before this stuff goes live. Maybe they'll bend on a few things.

This is said every patch for every class. It only works for sorcs though. If Templars get anything reversed; it will come with some other nerf. I am willing to bet POTL is on the hit list.

film

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Again, we encourage everyone to hop on the PTS and give these changes a try in both PvE and PvP scenarios rather than just reading about the changes. Once you’ve had a chance to try everything out, we’d love to hear your feedback about what you played.

How do console players hop on the PTS?

Kode

Praise the changes to breath of life. Now they need to look at all of their PBAoE effects and bust most of them down to cone effects, And I'm not talking 180 degrees... that is generous. I'd rather see it at 120 degrees frontal. Few AoE skills should be in a radius around the caster. That is what lead us down this path of mindless spamming to begin with.

ZeroSumPhase

Rainwhisper wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Lastly, we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments. This is one of the reasons we added CC immunities to monsters; when ESO originally launched, you could knock the same mudcrab down over and over. The balance changes we made in this update are aimed at making gameplay more interesting in all areas of the game.

As a PvE-only player, I don't see how this is possible. Occasionally I will read a PvP post about the skills they use, and I don't even understand the shorthand they are using, much less the rotation. I know that my fantasy of a PvE-only game will never come to pass in any MMO, but I don't think the idea of unified game mechanics is a viable development model.

Also, I think I may have been the only PvE player who leveled by using CC mechanics to manage fights. Made perfect sense to me, but apparently everyone else just waded in and AoE'd.

This.

I've never been a huge PvP fan, ever since I left GW1 way back in the day. It's the most frustrating thing ever to have your gameplay completely and utterly upended because of some aspect of the game you don't even go into or have interest in.

This is why ZoS' model isn't sustainable. Guild Wars learned this more than 10 years ago. Create different versions of skills for PvE versus PvP.

"Skill A does X; if engaged in PvP, skill A does Y." It's not rocket science.

templesus

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’d like to provide some clarity on why we made some of the changes we did, specifically to the Templar. Reading about some of these changes can be a bit jarring at first, and we highly suggest you to log onto the PTS to give it a try first-hand; this may help you see how everything works together and in context.

First, we want to reiterate why we’re making these global changes to abilities and resource management (and most of this will sound very familiar if you read the PTS patch notes). Our combat system features fast-paced action where resource management plays a large part in performing effectively. Player abilities in ESO specifically do not have cooldowns for this very reason - resource management is a core pillar of the system. Due to the number of balance changes we’ve made over time, this core pillar of resource management has become trivialized in that it’s become easier than ever to have nearly infinite sustainability while still being fully maximized for damage. The overall goal here is to have a combat system that reinforces decision making and resource management.

With that being said, one of the main concerns we want to address is the worry that we’re nerfing Templars in order to make the Warden a stronger healing class, particularly by nerfing Major Mending and giving it to Wardens. We’ve made it so all classes have to meet conditional requirements to gain Major Mending. DK’s need to have their damage shields up, Wardens have to heal low health targets, and Resto Staff users have to complete a fully charged heavy attack. It’s also worth noting that we’re planning on adjusting the Warden passive, Accelerated Growth, because it’s currently too easy to keep it active for long periods of time.

If you’re worried that there’s no reason to play a Templar over a Warden, or any other class, keep in mind that Templars have a stronger single target burst heal that’s easier to aim (Rushed Ceremony), they have a faster healing spammable ability with Healing Ritual, and their Ultimate heal hits targets in a 28m radius instead of 8 meters. In addition, have also have a free heal with Repentance, can cleanse allies with the Cleansing Ritual synergy and can remove 5 effects from themselves. Rushed Ceremony is also still the strongest heal in ESO, so Templars still have a lot going for them.

Lastly, we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments. This is one of the reasons we added CC immunities to monsters; when ESO originally launched, you could knock the same mudcrab down over and over. The balance changes we made in this update are aimed at making gameplay more interesting in all areas of the game.

Again, we encourage everyone to hop on the PTS and give these changes a try in both PvE and PvP scenarios rather than just reading about the changes. Once you’ve had a chance to try everything out, we’d love to hear your feedback about what you played.

And what about stamplar? None of what you said effects us?? We exist too ya know. Atleast make an effort to allow us to keep major mending, for example change the sacred ground passive to giving major mending for a certain amount of time after using restoring light abilities, say 6 seconds, then give it a cooldown. Or increase healing with stamina abilities by 25%. Something. Major mending was a unique thing stamplar had (and weve only had it for 4 patches) and you just stripped it from us because you wanted to take it away from magplar healers. This isnt right zenimax and you know it. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Kemenril

Re. the Siphoning Strikes change, someone already sad it:

Side note: I main a Mageblade and I knew this patch would have resource recovery nerfs, but I wasn't worried because of the siphoning attacks ability. Well... You nerfed that, wasn't expecting that at all and I'm honestly a bit disappointed cause mageblade didn't need nerfs. This skill made sustain easier but through light attack weaving.. Which takes some learning. So sustain was only easy with mageblade if you could weave, which takes skill and thought (kinda like how you guys want the game to be). Also I'm pretty sure you guys said you would change merciless resolve but I didn't see that at all.. So mageblade didn't get better this patch.. It got worse somehow. Very sad day

Who the heck made THAT decision? Completely silly nerf, makes no sense and only makes a weak class even weaker.

Dottzgaming

Great response @ZOS_GinaBruno ! Thnks for the insight

leeux

lordrichter wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno ... ask the Dev team whether they would be as happy with the Warden class if they swapped with the Templar. Force the Templars to have to heal low health people to get major mending, and let the Wardens get it by just doing a heavy attack with the resto staff.

To be completely honest, and IMHO, if Warden is purely HOTs heals (haven't checked, as I'm not interested in Wardens myself), it makes sense that they get Major mending when they're using their heals effectively.

Major Mending removal is not the *huge* issue here (though, I'd like to see it re-added to Templars under some other condition!)... What's HUGE is the removal of group support/utility functions: repentance useless, shards+orbs not reliable anymore, and burst heal be crippled by making it directional which is HUGE in PvP.

Those are the changes that are most crippling to the Templar healer rol, again, IMO.

Zvorgin

The Warden is conditional on the object of the heal for major mending and not on the healer performing an action. This is a clear exception from the other 3 whole rely on the player to perform an action.

The player being healed also doesn't have to perform a specific action.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Vercingetorix

Unifying the game? By keeping PvE and PvP together every time you nerf something because one side of the house has a problem, you greatly affect the other side with its change. The biggest example was the Sorcerer shield duration nerf. It was fine in PvE at 20 secs (only form of defense for sorcs), problem in PvP b/c it blocked crits (duration wasn't the problem).

PvE and PvP are vastly different environments that have different skill and gear demands. You cannot reconcile the two together. It is impossible - you waste more manpower devising "solutions" that break more stuff on one side of the house or the other. GIVE IT UP.

Separate the two and use Battle Spirit (that was its original purpose, remember?) to enact the adjustments needed to PvP when players enter it. Stop making global changes to the core game that hurt one side or the other.

Taking away the core identity of a class because a few bad apples can't adapt in PvP is a poor solution. Templars HEAL - they SHOULD have access to Major Mending, you know, to MEND. Dragonknights should have a flexible suite of resource management options to TANK. Sorcerers should have long-lasting magical wards to shield their frail bodies from physical harm since they have NO ARMOR. Nightblades should have high regeneration and burst to be able to GANK - soul stealing power and attacking from the shadows.

Kesstryl

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Unifying the game? By keeping PvE and PvP together every time you nerf something because one side of the house has a problem, you greatly affect the other side with its change. The biggest example was the Sorcerer shield duration nerf. It was fine in PvE at 20 secs (only form of defense for sorcs), problem in PvP b/c it blocked crits (duration wasn't the problem).

PvE and PvP are vastly different environments that have different skill and gear demands. You cannot reconcile the two together. It is impossible - you waste more manpower devising "solutions" that break more stuff on one side of the house or the other. GIVE IT UP.

Separate the two and use Battle Spirit (that was its original purpose, remember?) to enact the adjustments needed to PvP when players enter it. Stop making global changes to the core game that hurt one side or the other.

Taking away the core identity of a class because a few bad apples can't adapt in PvP is a poor solution. Templars HEAL - they SHOULD have access to Major Mending, you know, to MEND. Dragonknights should have a flexible suite of resource management options to TANK. Sorcerers should have long-lasting magical wards to shield their frail bodies from physical harm since they have NO ARMOR. Nightblades should have high regeneration and burst to be able to GANK - soul stealing power and attacking from the shadows.

THIS! Stop nerfing PVE to fix PVP! You are making PVE unplayable for some classes and builds! I've already been having difficulty with my Stamplar with the current build, and now you are nerfing it more? My Stamplar will be useless.

Catches_the_Sun

Alchemical wrote: »

If you play Templar because it's the objectively strongest healer and/or it was easy to play, well, then go play Warden for your easy mode flavor of the month. Then in a few patches it'll get nerf'd back into line and people will cry "Why even run a Warden when Templar is so much better now?"

Sorry, I don't do this "flavor of the month" nonsense. I have a character that I've invested years of play into, that has high end achievements that I had hoped to continue to build on. Getting everything I needed for this character has been a daunting task for me. I've put way too many hours into this character to just sideline him and pick up another healer because ZoS decided to nerf me to hell & back to sell their DLC class.

Our 4-man group has just completed some nice vet dungeons with only Ruins of Mazzatun remaining...and now I am to be told that we have to just suck it up with these changes, learn to how to respec our builds, farm new gear, learn new rotations, etc, just to continue to maybe be able to do the same content in the future that we're already doing today? Our tank will have to relearn how to block, have to farm new gear, have to manage resources that I can no longer give him. Our Stamblade DPS will decrease drastically, and he'll be out of resources too, likely also have to farm new gear. I think I'll pass on that. It's taken us months to get to this point. To start over does not sound at all appealing to me. I thought we really were accomplishing something, and I'm not sure I have the energy or motivation to start that process over again.

It's akin to being in an abusive relationship...ZoS comes back in this thread after smacking us down and says "hey, we still love you, honest!", but it doesn't feel right to continue to throw money at them. The crazy thing is that I've already preordered Morrowind, and planned to check out the Warden as an alt...but not at the expense of losing my beloved main character's strengths & identity.

masterbroodub17_ESO

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

Alchemical wrote: »

If you play Templar because it's the objectively strongest healer and/or it was easy to play, well, then go play Warden for your easy mode flavor of the month. Then in a few patches it'll get nerf'd back into line and people will cry "Why even run a Warden when Templar is so much better now?"

Sorry, I don't do this "flavor of the month" nonsense. I have a character that I've invested years of play into, that has high end achievements that I had hoped to continue to build on. Getting everything I needed for this character has been a daunting task for me. I've put way too many hours into this character to just sideline him and pick up another healer because ZoS decided to nerf me to hell & back to sell their DLC class.

Our 4-man group has just completed some nice vet dungeons with only Ruins of Mazzatun remaining...and now I am to be told that we have to just suck it up with these changes, learn to how to respec our builds, farm new gear, learn new rotations, etc, just to continue to maybe be able to do the same content in the future that we're already doing today? Our tank will have to relearn how to block, have to farm new gear, have to manage resources that I can no longer give him. Our Stamblade DPS will decrease drastically, and he'll be out of resources too, likely also have to farm new gear. I think I'll pass on that. It's taken us months to get to this point. To start over does not sound at all appealing to me. I thought we really were accomplishing something, and I'm not sure I have the energy or motivation to start that process over again.

It's akin to being in an abusive relationship...ZoS comes back in this thread after smacking us down and says "hey, we still love you, honest!", but it doesn't feel right to continue to throw money at them. The crazy thing is that I've already preordered Morrowind, and planned to check out the Warden as an alt...but not at the expense of losing my beloved main character's strengths & identity.

Every game goes through major shake-ups throughout it's lifespan. In a game like this it's felt much more because of the amount of freedom you get. It has a price, and that price is that when even one skill is changed by something as small as 2% the entire meta shifts.
It's the nature of the beast in a game like this, suck it up buttercup.

LordSlif

Koensol wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

With that being said, one of the main concerns we want to address is the worry that we’re nerfing Templars in order to make the Warden a stronger healing class, particularly by nerfing Major Mending and giving it to Wardens. We’ve made it so all classes have to meet conditional requirements to gain Major Mending. DK’s need to have their damage shields up, Wardens have to heal low health targets, and Resto Staff users have to complete a fully charged heavy attack. It’s also worth noting that we’re planning on adjusting the Warden passive, Accelerated Growth, because it’s currently too easy to keep it active for long periods of time.

@ZOS_GinaBruno I just want to give the TL;DR version of the requirements needed to be met for major mending:

DKs - need to have a shield active that disappears after one light attack

Everyone else, including the traditional healing class with a healing dedicated tree: equip a resto staff, complete a fully charged heavy attack during which you can't cast anything else to get the buff for 3 seconds, most of which is needed to complete another heavy attack to get the buff again.

Warden - you will get it whenever you actually need it

The cute thing is that ZOS thinks people actually use healing ritual... My god how detached can you be.

Lmao no one uses healing ritual, but for ZOS everyone uses and it is spammable

vyndral13preub18_ESO

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

Alchemical wrote: »

If you play Templar because it's the objectively strongest healer and/or it was easy to play, well, then go play Warden for your easy mode flavor of the month. Then in a few patches it'll get nerf'd back into line and people will cry "Why even run a Warden when Templar is so much better now?"

Sorry, I don't do this "flavor of the month" nonsense. I have a character that I've invested years of play into, that has high end achievements that I had hoped to continue to build on. Getting everything I needed for this character has been a daunting task for me. I've put way too many hours into this character to just sideline him and pick up another healer because ZoS decided to nerf me to hell & back to sell their DLC class.

Our 4-man group has just completed some nice vet dungeons with only Ruins of Mazzatun remaining...and now I am to be told that we have to just suck it up with these changes, learn to how to respec our builds, farm new gear, learn new rotations, etc, just to continue to maybe be able to do the same content in the future that we're already doing today? Our tank will have to relearn how to block, have to farm new gear, have to manage resources that I can no longer give him. Our Stamblade DPS will decrease drastically, and he'll be out of resources too, likely also have to farm new gear. I think I'll pass on that. It's taken us months to get to this point. To start over does not sound at all appealing to me. I thought we really were accomplishing something, and I'm not sure I have the energy or motivation to start that process over again.

It's akin to being in an abusive relationship...ZoS comes back in this thread after smacking us down and says "hey, we still love you, honest!", but it doesn't feel right to continue to throw money at them. The crazy thing is that I've already preordered Morrowind, and planned to check out the Warden as an alt...but not at the expense of losing my beloved main character's strengths & identity.

Every game goes through major shake-ups throughout it's lifespan. In a game like this it's felt much more because of the amount of freedom you get. It has a price, and that price is that when even one skill is changed by something as small as 2% the entire meta shifts.
It's the nature of the beast in a game like this, suck it up buttercup.

While I think you are correct, most games do it differently. Most games rebalance on an expansion. Making new gear and or skills for the players. Then the new area is balanced around the new skills and equipment. So you feel like you advanced even if you never really did.

Here we are being rebalanced by sweeping nerfs. So if feels very different.

Calandrae

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Every game goes through major shake-ups throughout it's lifespan. In a game like this it's felt much more because of the amount of freedom you get. It has a price, and that price is that when even one skill is changed by something as small as 2% the entire meta shifts.
It's the nature of the beast in a game like this, suck it up buttercup.

Unfortunately this "shake-up" affects Templars in too many purely negative ways. Nerfing is one thing. Nerfing to the ground and making practically useless/generic is another.

If I had nothing else to do than to play this game, maybe in theory I could start from scratch with a new character and ignore all the progress I've made with my Templar healer. But since I work, take care of my family etc it just isn't possible.

The templar has all my achievements, she is my main crafter, she has done all the quests and expoloring etc. I also do vet trials etc with her. I enjoy all those aspects of the game and would very much like to continue them with my main character.

I was really looking forward to Morrowind - a new area to expolore and quest, fond memories from the original Morrowind etc. Now that positive anticipation has turned to apprehension and disappointment. And I'm not alone in this. I've talked to so many guildmates etc, and most of them are feeling the same. Practically nobody is talking about Morrowind with excitement atm because majority of their characters are about to get gutted. Not just nerfed - believe me, I have had to get used to nerfs during the past three years of playing my templar.

Kay1

@ZOS_GinaBruno If you were just going to say that just be quiet, you are throwing more wood to the fire.


You don't realize it maybe but the dev comments with the "it's a buff if" it's already a complete mockery and if now you tell us that everything is fine you are pushing too much.

Lore_lai

Majeure wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Rushed Ceremony is also still the strongest heal in ESO, so Templars still have a lot going for them.

ACTUALLY, the sorc pet heal is stronger now, with NO CONE restrictions too. How ironic, sorc better at healing too now?

And not a single word on homogenizing Spear Shards, potentially the biggest nerf of them all.. what more can you expect though, this company lol.

Not only that but the Twilight completely ignores LoS. Yes - you as a sorc with Twilight can go into PvP, hide somewhere behind a wall or in tower, put the Twilight on passive (so it doesn't run off) and AFK heal your group as long as you're in range.
No LoS or 180 check.
Please fix this! @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Also what in the name of sweet baby Talos are you doing to Repentance? Have you guys realy thought about how you changed this skill?
Repentance is a skill in Templar line that is a sustain/resource management skill.
First of all - you are completely gutting the resource return on it - there are no "ifs" or "buts" - this skill will provide less resources than it currently does on LIVE, no matter what your pool is. You said that it will be a buff if your stam is lower - false - it's a complete nerf regardless.
Secondly - only ONE Templar can use their sustain skill (you repent - your other Templar ally gets the shaft) - last I checked - all other classes can use their sustain skills/passives if other people of the same class are in the vicinity. But no - only one Templar can benefit from Repentance as a form of sustain.
Why not make it so only one Sorc can Dark Deal, only one DK can proc Battle Roar, only one NB can have Siphoning Attacks active. Do you see how silly this is?

Shad0wfire99

Jesus. I just hope ZoS is taking a hard look at their PR department right now.

LordSlif

Northern_Eve wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Every game goes through major shake-ups throughout it's lifespan. In a game like this it's felt much more because of the amount of freedom you get. It has a price, and that price is that when even one skill is changed by something as small as 2% the entire meta shifts.
It's the nature of the beast in a game like this, suck it up buttercup.

Unfortunately this "shake-up" affects Templars in too many purely negative ways. Nerfing is one thing. Nerfing to the ground and making practically useless/generic is another.

If I had nothing else to do than to play this game, maybe in theory I could start from scratch with a new character and ignore all the progress I've made with my Templar healer. But since I work, take care of my family etc it just isn't possible.

The templar has all my achievements, she is my main crafter, she has done all the quests and expoloring etc. I also do vet trials etc with her. I enjoy all those aspects of the game and would very much like to continue them with my main character.

I was really looking forward to Morrowind - a new area to expolore and quest, fond memories from the original Morrowind etc. Now that positive anticipation has turned to apprehension and disappointment. And I'm not alone in this. I've talked to so many guildmates etc, and most of them are feeling the same. Practically nobody is talking about Morrowind with excitement atm because majority of their characters are about to get gutted. Not just nerfed - believe me, I have had to get used to nerfs during the past three years of playing my templar.

First they reduced templar DPS and now the heals. ZOS said that healing ritual is spammable and the ult heal has 28M range... they are wrong, totally wrong so i think they dont know what they are doing.

Muttsmutt

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

all classes have to meet conditional requirements to gain Major Mending [...]
DK’s need to have their damage shields up [...]
Wardens have to heal low health targets [...]
Resto Staff users have to complete a fully charged heavy attack

i'm sorry gina, you said all, and mentioned only two classes- that's not all, and not the one which the issue was about;
you completely foregone the fact that templars are the heal-oriented class.where is your conditional requirement, huh?
after the patch they will lack ANY way to gain major mending. they are the healer class. they can't get major mending. not in any way. this is completely irrational and unsound from a design standpoint. that the healer class cannot access the strongest healing buff in any way whatsoever.
using resto staff doesn't count- we're talking about the class itself.

i am very upset over this irrational change. give templars a conditioned major mending again- the old one was too easily accessed, give one that's harder to access- but EXISTS !!

Domardal

Just want to tell you from a Progress PvE raiding orientated persons view that's been to pts and the new trial, that templars still work @ZOS_GinaBruno is right on that, but Warden had both higher sustained heal, higher burst heal and requires less skill.
I don't know where the NDA ends so I'm gonna shut up now.

Shad0wfire99

Domardal wrote: »

Just want to tell you from a Progress PvE raiding orientated persons view that's been to pts and the new trial, that templars still work @ZOS_GinaBruno is right on that, but Warden had both higher sustained heal, higher burst heal and requires less skill.
I don't know where the NDA ends so I'm gonna shut up now.

Interesting.

Calandrae

Domardal wrote: »

Just want to tell you from a Progress PvE raiding orientated persons view that's been to pts and the new trial, that templars still work @ZOS_GinaBruno is right on that, but Warden had both higher sustained heal, higher burst heal and requires less skill.
I don't know where the NDA ends so I'm gonna shut up now.

How surprising. Not.

All those people gloating how their sorcs and NBs are going to be on par and having an equal chance to heal from now on should stop and read this. Templar's aren't nerfed like this for the old classes.

emily3989

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

On a serious note....I'm done with this game.

I need to figure out how to cancel Morrowind possibly as well.

If y'all need anything I'll read the forums but moving to Elite Dangerous and some GR Wildlands off and on

Mail me your coin? PC NA

UppGRAYxDD

Everything @ZOS_GinaBruno stated earlier was believable until she mentioned healing ritual....lmao a spammable. Ever PvP there ZOS on a magicka templar? Hell PvE? Healing Ritual is about useful as a *** on a boar hog...It might look good, but useless. Remove the channel time and then maybe, maybe. As for the loss of major mending, I guess there will be alot more Argonians out there....On a positive note, Im glad BoL is now aim-able...Cannot wait to deny heals to ppl!