Neighbor wrote: »

Here is just some of what needs to happen to stop Sorcs from being so insanely overpowered:

-Shields need to be crittable
-Bastion needs to be removed
-Pirate skeleton needs real nerfs
-Lich, Amberplasm, Synablade all need to be nerfed
-There needs to be a debuff to reduce shield effectiveness

It's not like there's a set you could wear that could counter shield-stacking sorcerers. I mean, even if there was such a set, I'm sure it would take a ton of skill to use.

Shields are already expensive in PvP (and PvE!), and they're only getting more expensive with the cost reduction changes.

Tbh, i rather see introduced cooldowns to specific abilities than nerfing recovery. You should take in to consideration that classes which dont use heavy armor and dont have high hp regen will simply die a lot more and in some cases might even not be able to do specific solo content anymore. Less recovery doesnt mean just less dmg, but also less HP/shields which quickly transfer in to worse survivality.


Look at this from this point of view:

- Tanky character with high hp regen will not care much about higher cost of abiltiies, as he wont take much dmg in general and it will simply take him a bit longer to kill mobs. However the risk will not change much.

- Squishy character rely on killing mobs before those mobs do too much dmg, and kitting when possible with expensive heals or shield every now and then. You cant sit there and face tank mobs with a Nuker while preparing heavy base attack, since you will simply lose too much HP while doing so. This means that using shields/heal instead of dmging abilities will be very inefficient for their cost and duration.

The change to recovery only makes sense if you get rid of heavy attacks on ranged classes and boost their light attacks/kitting.

Heavy armor user with high hp regen can just sit there and face tank mobs while preparing heavy attack, it wont make much difference.

mdks magicka costs are already very high, and most mdks already use a sustain set. with these changes, mdks will suffer a lot.
consider reducing the magicka cost of their abilities by about 10%.

sorcs will still have infinite sustain with all these changes if you don't nerf dark exchange.

About the Sorcerer :

It's funny to see how much people complain about sorc not getting nerf in the class skill, in factn they are enough nerf, LOG ON ON PTS to try it.

Why sorc are not nerfed in class skills :

Mobility :

Streak costing 21% ( 16% less from cp - 5% less from light armor) more : now just think that skill have a 50% cost increase each time you cast it within 4s => Mobility take serious nerf.

Shields :

It cost about 11k (= 30% of max pool) magicka after sorc sustain passive to use the 3 shields, and when you are it 3 times, harness give you magicka back so it's become a 7.7k cost for stacking all your shield.

Now think theze shields only last 6s and you need to recast it forever. Before harness magicka gave you nearly enough magicka to cast a hardened + a harness. Now, it's far from that.

Damage :

Sorc is already running a damage set and a sustain set. With the spamable defense sorc have, they are very affected by recovery and magicka cost increase, sorcs will reduce their damage or they will not be able to sustain streak and no free shieldstack.

Sustain :

Sorc only have dark deal for sustain, but casting a more expensive stamina skill, when you have a dodge roll and break free cps seperate make this skill extremely hard to use, sorc will run OOS faster and a no stamina sorc is a dead sorc.

Conclusion :

Even if sorc didn't receive direct class nerfs, they are affected a lot, and more than other, because sorc is made for spaming shield and streak and they are now punished for do it.


Before speaking, go to the PTS and try it

I'm still very confused with these resource management changes. I keep hearing devs want us to take resource management seriously, but they're removing all the skills and passives (CP) that provide resources... where are we supposed to manage our resources? Not playing the game / using skills?

I'm not being passive aggressive, I'm being completely serious. I haven't seen heavy / light attacks buffed in resource return and the skills that replace dps skills on our bars that we currently use in place of dps for resources are now useless... what are we supposed to do?

Pop potions? Then why aren't there potion buffs to replace the removal of these resource return skills?

Is everyone seriously so busy with the closed beta that there isn't more of an outrage or at least posts of confusion?

The changes to templars to remove their stamina-restoration abilities is flat out incorrect direction to take the class in PERIOD.

Can we just make it so you can crit damage shields already? It makes no sense that you can't crit a damage shield and it makes it so pushing towards crit in pvp is completely useless. This easy change would make crit builds more viable and increase the variability in PvP.

Gallier65 wrote: »

I really like the Patch Notes with the sustain changes. No one tested stuff yet and all people start complaining just wait some days.

Also many people are thinking magsorcs are OP. Just wait how they sustain with these changes. When they use staff i think they will have problems with magicka. But let´s just wait some days then we will see what these changes look like.
Cheers guys.

I don't need to run any tests to know that all negative changes will have negative results. This isn't a balancing patch, it's a nerf patch. Normally, I would agree with you, but there isn't any positive balance here. This patch is designed to sell Wardens as a main healer by nerfing Templars. I'm not naive enough to believe that after 3 years, they decided these changes to Templars were necessary to implement the same day of Warden release.

I run a Templar healer main, running endgame PvE content. To reiterate:

This patch takes 25% off of my base healing (by changing Major Mending to Minor & capping Blessed from CP to 15% from 25%, and adding back 2% from Mending passive.

The patch adds 21% base cost to my abilities through elimination of CP passive and 3rd point in Evocation.

The patch completely removes group stamina regen through Repentance. Repentance is no longer worth running at all because it's not giving back Stamina to my group any longer, which they will desperately need after this patch goes live. Essentially a mandatory respec into Radiant Aura, which has also been nerfed by 25% through Minor Magickasteal nerf.

The patch changes Breath of Life to a directional cone instead of AoE smart heal. No matter how you spin it, that's a huge nerf. In 4-man dungeons, this is probably going to be fine, but in the chaos that is trials? We're gonna lose a lot of good men out there. They could have at least let it heal more people or something, like that one class that has a great 7-man cone heal complete with Minor Toughness, Intellect & Endurance. What was that class? Oh, right...Warden.

The patch lets Shards restore either Magicka or Stamina, but then puts it on the same cooldown as Orbs. I currently run both, but Orbs are now useless for me to run.

Again, I don't need to test anything to know that the net result of these changes will not be positive. How can it be?

I'm not saying this about the entire patch but most of the changes are complete trash I will not play this garbage at all I'm here to advance not be pushed back because someone else cannot learn to play. And I know this statement is very vague but i am not putting any effort into explaining like your staff did to the patch the game is completely gutted slowed down to a dumbed state its a waste and sad to see.

Emma_Overload wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Im fairly worried that all healing was nerfed pretty hard, for all classes and specially for stamina, but Bastion for damage shields wasnt touched.

You can't nerf wrobel favorite class but ruin the game for everyone else.

Ridiculous. Wrobel nerfed Sorcs for 2 years straight while buffing NBs. Now they spent the last 6 months buffing DKs and Temps while still ignoring Sorcs except to cut our Overload ultimate in half! The only actual buffs we've seen since the game LAUNCHED have been to pets.... PETS!

Are we playing the same game!?

Aedaryl wrote: »

About the Sorcerer :

It's funny to see how much people complain about sorc not getting nerf in the class skill, in factn they are enough nerf, LOG ON ON PTS to try it.

Why sorc are not nerfed in class skills :

Mobility :

Streak costing 21% ( 16% less from cp - 5% less from light armor) more : now just think that skill have a 50% cost increase each time you cast it within 4s => Mobility take serious nerf.

Shields :

It cost about 11k (= 30% of max pool) magicka after sorc sustain passive to use the 3 shields, and when you are it 3 times, harness give you magicka back so it's become a 7.7k cost for stacking all your shield.

Now think theze shields only last 6s and you need to recast it forever. Before harness magicka gave you nearly enough magicka to cast a hardened + a harness. Now, it's far from that.

Damage :

Sorc is already running a damage set and a sustain set. With the spamable defense sorc have, they are very affected by recovery and magicka cost increase, sorcs will reduce their damage or they will not be able to sustain streak and no free shieldstack.

Sustain :

Sorc only have dark deal for sustain, but casting a more expensive stamina skill, when you have a dodge roll and break free cps seperate make this skill extremely hard to use, sorc will run OOS faster and a no stamina sorc is a dead sorc.

Conclusion :

Even if sorc didn't receive direct class nerfs, they are affected a lot, and more than other, because sorc is made for spaming shield and streak and they are now punished for do it.


Before speaking, go to the PTS and try it

Atleast sorcs can still run a damage set. As well as an overpowered damage reduction set that was hardly changed. Also the heals for stamina classes were just increased by 30% along with the cost reduction nerfs making vigor and one dodge roll with a block take up an entire stamina pool. A second dodge roll and we are completely unable to CC break. Let alone this is where our sprint and damage come from as well we will basically be on CC away from death every time.

Also, I don't see the section where sorcs shields got increased? Therefore you still have your main defence at roughly the same cost (minus champion changes) while stamina survivability, which was already lackluster, was made even harder. Espeically for classes like stam dk that relied on things such as major mending, or even night blade that relied on things like dodge roll and sneak.

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

About the Sorcerer :

It's funny to see how much people complain about sorc not getting nerf in the class skill, in factn they are enough nerf, LOG ON ON PTS to try it.

Why sorc are not nerfed in class skills :

Mobility :

Streak costing 21% ( 16% less from cp - 5% less from light armor) more : now just think that skill have a 50% cost increase each time you cast it within 4s => Mobility take serious nerf.

Shields :

It cost about 11k (= 30% of max pool) magicka after sorc sustain passive to use the 3 shields, and when you are it 3 times, harness give you magicka back so it's become a 7.7k cost for stacking all your shield.

Now think theze shields only last 6s and you need to recast it forever. Before harness magicka gave you nearly enough magicka to cast a hardened + a harness. Now, it's far from that.

Damage :

Sorc is already running a damage set and a sustain set. With the spamable defense sorc have, they are very affected by recovery and magicka cost increase, sorcs will reduce their damage or they will not be able to sustain streak and no free shieldstack.

Sustain :

Sorc only have dark deal for sustain, but casting a more expensive stamina skill, when you have a dodge roll and break free cps seperate make this skill extremely hard to use, sorc will run OOS faster and a no stamina sorc is a dead sorc.

Conclusion :

Even if sorc didn't receive direct class nerfs, they are affected a lot, and more than other, because sorc is made for spaming shield and streak and they are now punished for do it.


Before speaking, go to the PTS and try it

Atleast sorcs can still run a damage set. As well as an overpowered damage reduction set that was hardly changed. Also the heals for stamina classes were just increased by 30% along with the cost reduction nerfs making vigor and one dodge roll with a block take up an entire stamina pool. A second dodge roll and we are completely unable to CC break. Let alone this is where our sprint and damage come from as well we will basically be on CC away from death every time.

Also, I don't see the section where sorcs shields got increased? Therefore you still have your main defence at roughly the same cost (minus champion changes) while stamina survivability, which was already lackluster, was made even harder. Espeically for classes like stam dk that relied on things such as major mending, or even night blade that relied on things like dodge roll and sneak.

Same cost? You crazy? Sorcs lost 16% cost reduction on shields from CP and another 5% from Light Armor passives. Shields on PTS cost over 3.5k for Hardened Ward, 4.5k for Harness and 4.5k for Healing Ward. Harness used to refund basically the whole cost of casting Hardened and Harness. With 42k magicka (and the magicka return scales with your max magicka) I have a return of 1.2k per magic damage 3 times. That's 3.6k "effective cost reduction". Your 3 shields will cost a little less than 1/3 of your magicka pool to cast. That's the most expensive defense out of any class considering they have to be actively reapplied every 6 seconds. With 2k recovery, you get 6k magicka back in 6 seconds. The return from Harness gives another 3.6k. We have 9.6k magicka restored over 6 seconds, which is still less than what the shields cost (12k with the cost reduction passives in Light Armor and Sorc passives). And that's in a situation where your shields last their full duration (aka you aren't taking any damage). Sorcs are suffering from these cost reduction changes a lot, arguably more than the other classes.

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

About the Sorcerer :

It's funny to see how much people complain about sorc not getting nerf in the class skill, in factn they are enough nerf, LOG ON ON PTS to try it.

Why sorc are not nerfed in class skills :

Mobility :

Streak costing 21% ( 16% less from cp - 5% less from light armor) more : now just think that skill have a 50% cost increase each time you cast it within 4s => Mobility take serious nerf.

Shields :

It cost about 11k (= 30% of max pool) magicka after sorc sustain passive to use the 3 shields, and when you are it 3 times, harness give you magicka back so it's become a 7.7k cost for stacking all your shield.

Now think theze shields only last 6s and you need to recast it forever. Before harness magicka gave you nearly enough magicka to cast a hardened + a harness. Now, it's far from that.

Damage :

Sorc is already running a damage set and a sustain set. With the spamable defense sorc have, they are very affected by recovery and magicka cost increase, sorcs will reduce their damage or they will not be able to sustain streak and no free shieldstack.

Sustain :

Sorc only have dark deal for sustain, but casting a more expensive stamina skill, when you have a dodge roll and break free cps seperate make this skill extremely hard to use, sorc will run OOS faster and a no stamina sorc is a dead sorc.

Conclusion :

Even if sorc didn't receive direct class nerfs, they are affected a lot, and more than other, because sorc is made for spaming shield and streak and they are now punished for do it.


Before speaking, go to the PTS and try it

Atleast sorcs can still run a damage set. As well as an overpowered damage reduction set that was hardly changed. Also the heals for stamina classes were just increased by 30% along with the cost reduction nerfs making vigor and one dodge roll with a block take up an entire stamina pool. A second dodge roll and we are completely unable to CC break. Let alone this is where our sprint and damage come from as well we will basically be on CC away from death every time.

Also, I don't see the section where sorcs shields got increased? Therefore you still have your main defence at roughly the same cost (minus champion changes) while stamina survivability, which was already lackluster, was made even harder. Espeically for classes like stam dk that relied on things such as major mending, or even night blade that relied on things like dodge roll and sneak.

Same cost? You crazy? Sorcs lost 16% cost reduction on shields from CP and another 5% from Light Armor passives. Shields on PTS cost over 3.5k for Hardened Ward, 4.5k for Harness and 4.5k for Healing Ward. Harness used to refund basically the whole cost of casting Hardened and Harness. With 42k magicka (and the magicka return scales with your max magicka) I have a return of 1.2k per magic damage 3 times. That's 3.6k "effective cost reduction". Your 3 shields will cost a little less than 1/3 of your magicka pool to cast. That's the most expensive defense out of any class considering they have to be actively reapplied every 6 seconds. With 2k recovery, you get 6k magicka back in 6 seconds. The return from Harness gives another 3.6k. We have 9.6k magicka restored over 6 seconds, which is still less than what the shields cost (12k with the cost reduction passives in Light Armor and Sorc passives). And that's in a situation where your shields last their full duration (aka you aren't taking any damage). Sorcs are suffering from these cost reduction changes a lot, arguably more than the other classes.

And how so? Why sorcs suffer more than the other classes? I think sorcs suffer even less. You have to take care only for magicka recovery, reduction and pool. DKs and Templars need also stamina for blocking and magicka for skills. Our defence doesnt come only from magicka. Even if we decide not to use block and use only healing for defence then how sorcs suffer more? Our healing skills will be more expensive too. Base cost of BoL is 4590, base cost of Dragon blood 4320, base cost of hardened ward 3510.

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

About the Sorcerer :

It's funny to see how much people complain about sorc not getting nerf in the class skill, in factn they are enough nerf, LOG ON ON PTS to try it.

Why sorc are not nerfed in class skills :

Mobility :

Streak costing 21% ( 16% less from cp - 5% less from light armor) more : now just think that skill have a 50% cost increase each time you cast it within 4s => Mobility take serious nerf.

Shields :

It cost about 11k (= 30% of max pool) magicka after sorc sustain passive to use the 3 shields, and when you are it 3 times, harness give you magicka back so it's become a 7.7k cost for stacking all your shield.

Now think theze shields only last 6s and you need to recast it forever. Before harness magicka gave you nearly enough magicka to cast a hardened + a harness. Now, it's far from that.

Damage :

Sorc is already running a damage set and a sustain set. With the spamable defense sorc have, they are very affected by recovery and magicka cost increase, sorcs will reduce their damage or they will not be able to sustain streak and no free shieldstack.

Sustain :

Sorc only have dark deal for sustain, but casting a more expensive stamina skill, when you have a dodge roll and break free cps seperate make this skill extremely hard to use, sorc will run OOS faster and a no stamina sorc is a dead sorc.

Conclusion :

Even if sorc didn't receive direct class nerfs, they are affected a lot, and more than other, because sorc is made for spaming shield and streak and they are now punished for do it.


Before speaking, go to the PTS and try it

Atleast sorcs can still run a damage set. As well as an overpowered damage reduction set that was hardly changed. Also the heals for stamina classes were just increased by 30% along with the cost reduction nerfs making vigor and one dodge roll with a block take up an entire stamina pool. A second dodge roll and we are completely unable to CC break. Let alone this is where our sprint and damage come from as well we will basically be on CC away from death every time.

Also, I don't see the section where sorcs shields got increased? Therefore you still have your main defence at roughly the same cost (minus champion changes) while stamina survivability, which was already lackluster, was made even harder. Espeically for classes like stam dk that relied on things such as major mending, or even night blade that relied on things like dodge roll and sneak.

Same cost? You crazy? Sorcs lost 16% cost reduction on shields from CP and another 5% from Light Armor passives. Shields on PTS cost over 3.5k for Hardened Ward, 4.5k for Harness and 4.5k for Healing Ward. Harness used to refund basically the whole cost of casting Hardened and Harness. With 42k magicka (and the magicka return scales with your max magicka) I have a return of 1.2k per magic damage 3 times. That's 3.6k "effective cost reduction". Your 3 shields will cost a little less than 1/3 of your magicka pool to cast. That's the most expensive defense out of any class considering they have to be actively reapplied every 6 seconds. With 2k recovery, you get 6k magicka back in 6 seconds. The return from Harness gives another 3.6k. We have 9.6k magicka restored over 6 seconds, which is still less than what the shields cost (12k with the cost reduction passives in Light Armor and Sorc passives). And that's in a situation where your shields last their full duration (aka you aren't taking any damage). Sorcs are suffering from these cost reduction changes a lot, arguably more than the other classes.

Even as a sorc that is a VERY generous assumption. If you're keeping all 3 of your shields up on cool down every second of the fight you deserve having to stack a ridiculous amount into regen. And tbh harness has been a crutch for bad sorcs or sorcs that just want easy mode for literally +2 years now. The idea that I can apply a shield--that admittedly isn't very large but is hardly irrelevant when considering survivability--and not only cover the cost of that shield with it's resource return but a SECOND shield that is the largest in the game outside of execute range is completely insane. Wouldn't even mind an accompanying rebalance\revamp of harness to go along with the other max stat related bonuses. And this is coming form a +150 days played mag sorc...

Aedaryl wrote: »

About the Sorcerer :

It's funny to see how much people complain about sorc not getting nerf in the class skill, in factn they are enough nerf, LOG ON ON PTS to try it.

Why sorc are not nerfed in class skills :

Mobility :

Streak costing 21% ( 16% less from cp - 5% less from light armor) more : now just think that skill have a 50% cost increase each time you cast it within 4s => Mobility take serious nerf.

Shields :

It cost about 11k (= 30% of max pool) magicka after sorc sustain passive to use the 3 shields, and when you are it 3 times, harness give you magicka back so it's become a 7.7k cost for stacking all your shield.

Now think theze shields only last 6s and you need to recast it forever. Before harness magicka gave you nearly enough magicka to cast a hardened + a harness. Now, it's far from that.

Damage :

Sorc is already running a damage set and a sustain set. With the spamable defense sorc have, they are very affected by recovery and magicka cost increase, sorcs will reduce their damage or they will not be able to sustain streak and no free shieldstack.

Sustain :

Sorc only have dark deal for sustain, but casting a more expensive stamina skill, when you have a dodge roll and break free cps seperate make this skill extremely hard to use, sorc will run OOS faster and a no stamina sorc is a dead sorc.

Conclusion :

Even if sorc didn't receive direct class nerfs, they are affected a lot, and more than other, because sorc is made for spaming shield and streak and they are now punished for do it.


Before speaking, go to the PTS and try it

Just one word:
"LICH".

Plus, seriously, every class had those nerfs.
Every. Single. Class.


We've already been through the sorcs' mummer victimism that gave us that Haunting Curse crap, you're not making a fool of nobody this time.
It's easy to argument this way, measuring apples and oranges together.

You won't need to mindlessly spam streak or shields anymore.
One of it would be enough for the whole zerg to stop chasing you because nobody will have enough resources to chase you down and fight you.
And even if they do, you still have enough magicka to put on 2 shields, which are way more than enough to cover yourself from the 2 attacks a stamina build could do after a 20mt chase.
And even if they're crazy enough to attack you while behind an uncrittable, unbreakable wall ( remember that now people will be less powerful if they have enough resources to engage you after a streak ), you still can just cast a curse, a force pulse and you'll gain right to use your TWO EXECUTIONS, against a player who will now have just enough juice to either block or dodge his way out without the chance to heal and avoid that utterly ugly and cancerous execute passive.
And even if someone can survive all of this and kill you, well, you're finally back to reality.
I hope you've enjoyed your holiday in Cancer Paradise but being chased, zerged, drained and nuked is the every day reality of every single class besides pre-Morrowind Magplars, who still aren't as powerful as this two-three buttons class.

And this is for solo playing, sorcs groups will be a new form of STD, you'll need condoms on your pads to play in PvP.

And don't even let me start with the stamina counterpart who can easily go full proc damage, one-two shot you with a good combo and then dark deal and streak the hell out.

Meanwhile you have classes like magblades who have been eradicated from existence;
Magplars who will be forced to basically sit there all day and try to heal in their heavy armour without the chance to do damage otherwise the entire group will perish;
And magicka DKs who still have no execution and the worst sustain in the game ( just like stamplars or even worse ), so they will have to get in your face ( burning almost all the stamina ), root you one time ( burning a quarter of magicka ) only to see you Streak away from it, then chase you down again going empty on stamina and root you again and from that point on proceeding to whip your shields until the end of time.

Here's a preview of a Dk whipping an NPC for next patch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y

Please, enjoy being the only viable class with the Warden for the next six months but don't try to sell us the "Poor baby, our resources got nerf'd the most" lie, when you deserved to join the Magblades into the Book of the almost extinct species of Tamriel.