Dear non dk tanks, enough about swarm mother

Stannum

Autolycus wrote: »

Fun fact of the day, are you ready? Did you know that Swarm Mother can proc if you're standing in volley and blocking? You don't even have to taunt! Try it out, works on players too.

Stannum wrote: »

lol.
1. If you re NB tank you should have over 2k mag regen and siphoning atacks so cost of inner fire is not an issue for you.
2. True sap tank permablocks so all ranged atacks hits you block and SM proc even on AoE. So the point is only in set CD.
...

Autolycus

Hey guys, sorry to revive this since it seems to be about time to move on from this thread, but I don't think it's relevant to put this somewhere else, nor worth starting a whole new thread.

I was running vWGT last night with some friends and noticed that the Crematorial Guards throughout the hallways leading up the tower are susceptible to Swarm Mother procs as well. I didn't realize this before, so I figured I'd share. Turns out that sticky web shooting out of my face is Spiderman strong, Crema Guards can't step to it.

FYI @paulsimonps @Sordidfairytale

paulsimonps

Wow really..... Seems like Swarm Mother is over performing like crazy. I am actually in the works of compiling a list of instances where Swarm mother works better than Chains, mostly cause chains are bugged up the butt and needs fixing, but this is another fascinating discovery to say the least. On and that list would be made to try and help the devs find out why chains are not working as intended. For example move up and down a stair and your chains stop to work unless you use a heavy attack or a potion but swarm mother works fine no matter what.

Autolycus

paulsimonps wrote: »

Wow really..... Seems like Swarm Mother is over performing like crazy. I am actually in the works of compiling a list of instances where Swarm mother works better than Chains, mostly cause chains are bugged up the butt and needs fixing, but this is another fascinating discovery to say the least. On and that list would be made to try and help the devs find out why chains are not working as intended. For example move up and down a stair and your chains stop to work unless you use a heavy attack or a potion but swarm mother works fine no matter what.

I agree, I think that's a smart project. Chains has been buggy as hell for quite some time. I mentioned up in an earlier post that I like the fact that SM procs on just a few different things from chains so as not to diminish DKs inherent utility. I still support that concept of course, but the fact that we're pulling mobs that are historically totally immune to CC is... Idk, interesting? I find myself being skeptical of my own findings in this case... it's just bizarre to me.

I don't hate it, but don't want to see it performing better than chains where chains should be the obvious choice, e.g. "target too high or low" on a flat surface on ordinary mobs, or like in the stairs example you gave. I'm okay with having SM do a few things that chains can't, but definitely not as a workaround because chains is broken, nor should it be more efficient than chains under ordinary circumstances. No monster set should outperform a class skill or render it obsolete.

I presume you'll check this yourself too, so please let me know if your findings are inconsistent with mine. Like I said, skeptical because it's bizarre... and I didn't exactly test it on every Crema Guard in there, I just noticed it. I'll probably make it back in there at some point tonight or tomorrow to actually isolate it.

Saturn

WalksonGraves wrote: »

It's beyond crap. So normally a dk sees a ranged mob, pulls it in to the murder blender. Takes a second, uses on slot on the skillbar.
You never need to do this, it's just a minor convenience. Shaves maybe 20 seconds off a run.


Then you have swarm mother, which is like a much ****tier version. First you need to range taunt (either more expensive than chains for half the effect or 3 second hvy attack wind up) then the enemy's projectile has to hit you while you're blocking. This is about 5-9 seconds, longer if you are taunting multiples.

By the time you did all that, you could have walked there and asked nicely.

You might as well run no gear at all.
Better alternatives for nb? Teleport strike.

What are you talking about? You don't even need to taunt them, you just have to get their attention, which if you are a competent tank will always happen as you are the first one to pull the group, there will of course be a few that go for other group members, and those you then taunt like you normally would. Swarm Mother gives non-DK tanks something they've been missing since launch, and it costs no resources to use it, which makes it really powerful. Without the monster set you need to use line-of-sight and drag the enemies to where you want them (if they are ranged and not melee), which a lot of tanks are not very good at (at least not newer tanks). With the monster set you just have to taunt them and then will literally stack right on top of you, making an inexperienced tank's job way easier.

With teleport strike you don't actually achieve the same thing, and you have to spend more resources than it would take to taunt the target. How do you plan on stacking up enemies only using teleport strike?

techprince

You know that "target low or high" message can be bypassed by using a heavy attack just before chains.

paulsimonps

techprince wrote: »

You know that "target low or high" message can be bypassed by using a heavy attack just before chains.

Yea but we really shouldn't have to. Its a bugged skill that needs to be fixed.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You missed my point, pulling mobs is never necessary and sacrificing a monster helm to do so is ridiculous. Btw Pirate is by far the best choice for tanks. It's pretty obvious I don't get why the forums are so slow to realize.

I am late to the party, but WHAT?!?!?!

These are two of the most hilarious (and false) statements I have ever seen about tanking.

First, Pirate skeleton is beyond overkill, and does nothing to benefit your group in the slightest. If anything it makes you harder to heal if you do in fact get into trouble.

Second, chaining adds is half the reason DKs make the best tanks. One of your main jobs as a tank is to control the battlefield. Stacking adds into a nice little group so your DPS can nuke them is basically the second or third thing in your job description behind not dying and holding aggro.

WalksonGraves wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You missed my point, pulling mobs is never necessary and sacrificing a monster helm to do so is ridiculous. Btw Pirate is by far the best choice for tanks. It's pretty obvious I don't get why the forums are so slow to realize.

Like, wow, just. Wow.

Pirate Skeleton? I really hope you're just joking.

First of all: chains may not be necessary, but it is insanely useful. And as a tank, you're supposed to be all about utility.

Secondly, you seriously do not need Pirate Skeleton. It makes you overly tanky and does absolutely nothing for the group. Hell, I've tanked all vet dungeons on hardmode at 20k resistances and no resistance buffs. I've tanked all Craglorn vet trials with Bloodspawn. You really do not need more than 30k resistances. At 33k it gets capped anyway. Even a defending weapon does more than Pirate Skeleton.

Overly tanky? Oh god I sure wouldn't want to be taking less damage as a tank. Thank you for saving me from being effective in my role. You know how it helps the group? I can rez the group between hvy attacks because between my dr and my hp pool I can survive it. Not wiping is pretty useful.

You do realize the cap at 50% dr is only for armor and not other dr effects right?

I'd say 30% less damage most of the time (guard) is far more important than wasting your time trying to attract trash mobs.

Actually, your role is to support your group as a tank. Something I dont think you understand from your body of work on the forums. You need enough resistance to not die. It's Pass/Fail. If you stack signifcantly more resistance than needed, then you are by definition sacrificing utility, thus making you a pretty lousy tank.

Magdalina

Autolycus wrote: »

Hey guys, sorry to revive this since it seems to be about time to move on from this thread, but I don't think it's relevant to put this somewhere else, nor worth starting a whole new thread.

I was running vWGT last night with some friends and noticed that the Crematorial Guards throughout the hallways leading up the tower are susceptible to Swarm Mother procs as well. I didn't realize this before, so I figured I'd share. Turns out that sticky web shooting out of my face is Spiderman strong, Crema Guards can't step to it.

I'm having a blonde moment here. Aren't crem guards strictly melee? How'd you proc Swarm on them at range?
@Autolycus

ssewallb14_ESO

Why is this thread still happening?

Successful troll is successful I guess.

paulsimonps

Magdalina wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Hey guys, sorry to revive this since it seems to be about time to move on from this thread, but I don't think it's relevant to put this somewhere else, nor worth starting a whole new thread.

I was running vWGT last night with some friends and noticed that the Crematorial Guards throughout the hallways leading up the tower are susceptible to Swarm Mother procs as well. I didn't realize this before, so I figured I'd share. Turns out that sticky web shooting out of my face is Spiderman strong, Crema Guards can't step to it.

I'm having a blonde moment here. Aren't crem guards strictly melee? How'd you proc Swarm on them at range?
@Autolycus

I think you can block their fire when you move away slightly and it can be further than 5 meters away.

Autolycus

@Magdalina basically what Paul said. It's treating the fire as a ranged attack as I'm block-moving away from it, and then pulls it.

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Why is this thread still happening?

Successful troll is successful I guess.

Not really considered a successful troll thread if it gets taken over and becomes a constructive discussion about how the set works, eh?

WalksonGraves

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You missed my point, pulling mobs is never necessary and sacrificing a monster helm to do so is ridiculous. Btw Pirate is by far the best choice for tanks. It's pretty obvious I don't get why the forums are so slow to realize.

I am late to the party, but WHAT?!?!?!

These are two of the most hilarious (and false) statements I have ever seen about tanking.

First, Pirate skeleton is beyond overkill, and does nothing to benefit your group in the slightest. If anything it makes you harder to heal if you do in fact get into trouble.

Second, chaining adds is half the reason DKs make the best tanks. One of your main jobs as a tank is to control the battlefield. Stacking adds into a nice little group so your DPS can nuke them is basically the second or third thing in your job description behind not dying and holding aggro.

WalksonGraves wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You missed my point, pulling mobs is never necessary and sacrificing a monster helm to do so is ridiculous. Btw Pirate is by far the best choice for tanks. It's pretty obvious I don't get why the forums are so slow to realize.

Like, wow, just. Wow.

Pirate Skeleton? I really hope you're just joking.

First of all: chains may not be necessary, but it is insanely useful. And as a tank, you're supposed to be all about utility.

Secondly, you seriously do not need Pirate Skeleton. It makes you overly tanky and does absolutely nothing for the group. Hell, I've tanked all vet dungeons on hardmode at 20k resistances and no resistance buffs. I've tanked all Craglorn vet trials with Bloodspawn. You really do not need more than 30k resistances. At 33k it gets capped anyway. Even a defending weapon does more than Pirate Skeleton.

Overly tanky? Oh god I sure wouldn't want to be taking less damage as a tank. Thank you for saving me from being effective in my role. You know how it helps the group? I can rez the group between hvy attacks because between my dr and my hp pool I can survive it. Not wiping is pretty useful.

You do realize the cap at 50% dr is only for armor and not other dr effects right?

I'd say 30% less damage most of the time (guard) is far more important than wasting your time trying to attract trash mobs.

Actually, your role is to support your group as a tank. Something I dont think you understand from your body of work on the forums. You need enough resistance to not die. It's Pass/Fail. If you stack signifcantly more resistance than needed, then you are by definition sacrificing utility, thus making you a pretty lousy tank.

Yeah by being able to take more damage and require less healing means I'm a bad tank. Bosses don't do damage or have adds, team members never die. You all assume that the only tanking is in raids with an all glass cannon team and that all your buffs are always active.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, in this case the entire way you guys approach tanking is ass backwards to me. I like not having to block unless there's a insta kill mechanic and having those sweet "extras" like mobility and resources.

All I know is I've yet to encounter any content that's been stressful and I've cleared every vet dungeon(hundreds of successful pugs) and vet hel ra and have never been the cause of a failed run.

Magdalina

Autolycus wrote: »

basically what Paul said. It's treating the fire as a ranged attack as I'm block-moving away from it, and then pulls it.

Ah makes sense. I know Swarm treats anything as ranged if it hits 5 m mark(that includes Proxy lmao), but assumed crems' fire to be shorter. That's amusing.

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You missed my point, pulling mobs is never necessary and sacrificing a monster helm to do so is ridiculous. Btw Pirate is by far the best choice for tanks. It's pretty obvious I don't get why the forums are so slow to realize.

I am late to the party, but WHAT?!?!?!

These are two of the most hilarious (and false) statements I have ever seen about tanking.

First, Pirate skeleton is beyond overkill, and does nothing to benefit your group in the slightest. If anything it makes you harder to heal if you do in fact get into trouble.

Second, chaining adds is half the reason DKs make the best tanks. One of your main jobs as a tank is to control the battlefield. Stacking adds into a nice little group so your DPS can nuke them is basically the second or third thing in your job description behind not dying and holding aggro.

WalksonGraves wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You missed my point, pulling mobs is never necessary and sacrificing a monster helm to do so is ridiculous. Btw Pirate is by far the best choice for tanks. It's pretty obvious I don't get why the forums are so slow to realize.

Like, wow, just. Wow.

Pirate Skeleton? I really hope you're just joking.

First of all: chains may not be necessary, but it is insanely useful. And as a tank, you're supposed to be all about utility.

Secondly, you seriously do not need Pirate Skeleton. It makes you overly tanky and does absolutely nothing for the group. Hell, I've tanked all vet dungeons on hardmode at 20k resistances and no resistance buffs. I've tanked all Craglorn vet trials with Bloodspawn. You really do not need more than 30k resistances. At 33k it gets capped anyway. Even a defending weapon does more than Pirate Skeleton.

Overly tanky? Oh god I sure wouldn't want to be taking less damage as a tank. Thank you for saving me from being effective in my role. You know how it helps the group? I can rez the group between hvy attacks because between my dr and my hp pool I can survive it. Not wiping is pretty useful.

You do realize the cap at 50% dr is only for armor and not other dr effects right?

I'd say 30% less damage most of the time (guard) is far more important than wasting your time trying to attract trash mobs.

Actually, your role is to support your group as a tank. Something I dont think you understand from your body of work on the forums. You need enough resistance to not die. It's Pass/Fail. If you stack signifcantly more resistance than needed, then you are by definition sacrificing utility, thus making you a pretty lousy tank.

All I know is I've yet to encounter any content that's been stressful and I've cleared every vet dungeon(hundreds of successful pugs) and vet hel ra and have never been the cause of a failed run.

I'd like a video of you clearing HM ROM while using los instead of chains please

paulsimonps

Magdalina wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

basically what Paul said. It's treating the fire as a ranged attack as I'm block-moving away from it, and then pulls it.

Ah makes sense. I know Swarm treats anything as ranged if it hits 5 m mark(that includes Proxy lmao), but assumed crems' fire to be shorter. That's amusing.

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You missed my point, pulling mobs is never necessary and sacrificing a monster helm to do so is ridiculous. Btw Pirate is by far the best choice for tanks. It's pretty obvious I don't get why the forums are so slow to realize.

I am late to the party, but WHAT?!?!?!

These are two of the most hilarious (and false) statements I have ever seen about tanking.

First, Pirate skeleton is beyond overkill, and does nothing to benefit your group in the slightest. If anything it makes you harder to heal if you do in fact get into trouble.

Second, chaining adds is half the reason DKs make the best tanks. One of your main jobs as a tank is to control the battlefield. Stacking adds into a nice little group so your DPS can nuke them is basically the second or third thing in your job description behind not dying and holding aggro.

WalksonGraves wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You missed my point, pulling mobs is never necessary and sacrificing a monster helm to do so is ridiculous. Btw Pirate is by far the best choice for tanks. It's pretty obvious I don't get why the forums are so slow to realize.

Like, wow, just. Wow.

Pirate Skeleton? I really hope you're just joking.

First of all: chains may not be necessary, but it is insanely useful. And as a tank, you're supposed to be all about utility.

Secondly, you seriously do not need Pirate Skeleton. It makes you overly tanky and does absolutely nothing for the group. Hell, I've tanked all vet dungeons on hardmode at 20k resistances and no resistance buffs. I've tanked all Craglorn vet trials with Bloodspawn. You really do not need more than 30k resistances. At 33k it gets capped anyway. Even a defending weapon does more than Pirate Skeleton.

Overly tanky? Oh god I sure wouldn't want to be taking less damage as a tank. Thank you for saving me from being effective in my role. You know how it helps the group? I can rez the group between hvy attacks because between my dr and my hp pool I can survive it. Not wiping is pretty useful.

You do realize the cap at 50% dr is only for armor and not other dr effects right?

I'd say 30% less damage most of the time (guard) is far more important than wasting your time trying to attract trash mobs.

Actually, your role is to support your group as a tank. Something I dont think you understand from your body of work on the forums. You need enough resistance to not die. It's Pass/Fail. If you stack signifcantly more resistance than needed, then you are by definition sacrificing utility, thus making you a pretty lousy tank.

All I know is I've yet to encounter any content that's been stressful and I've cleared every vet dungeon(hundreds of successful pugs) and vet hel ra and have never been the cause of a failed run.

I'd like a video of you clearing HM ROM while using los instead of chains please

Swarm mother doesn't actually care what type of attack it is as long as it is able to be blocked. If you block an attack and at the time of you blocking it the caster of said attack is 5m or further away from you it will chain them. It has a limit thou. But that is not specified either...... MORE TESTING!

Sordidfairytale

paulsimonps wrote: »

MORE TESTING!

I'm running tests right now as well. I want to thank the OP for bringing this subject up, the world has never known a truer friend of Swarm Mother.

WalksonGraves

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

MORE TESTING!

I'm running tests right now as well. I want to thank the OP for bringing this subject up, the world has never known a truer friend of Swarm Mother.

I'm glad someone found use for it.

Sordidfairytale

Swarm Mother works on those Grievous Twatlight's too.

paulsimonps

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

Swarm Mother works on those Grievous Twatlight's too.

Tomorrow I am just gonna go through a bunch of dungeons with mobs I know is unchain-able and see what gets chained by swarm mother.

idk

Baconfat79 wrote: »

Just pull up OP's post history and skim through it. The guy is wrong about everything 90% of the time, but belittles everyone else, refuses to listen to reason, and is just genuinely argumentative for no reason. Don't waste your time trying to talk sense into him.

Perfect example: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/303685/leki-reactive-pirate-skeleton-in-pve/p1

He thinks Leki + Reactive + Pirate is great tanking gear.

He also things NBs are the meta tank. Not DKs. He says that in the same thread, I think on the same page. I pointed this out earlier in this thread.

WalksonGraves

paulsimonps wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

Swarm Mother works on those Grievous Twatlight's too.

Tomorrow I am just gonna go through a bunch of dungeons with mobs I know is unchain-able and see what gets chained by swarm mother.

I gave it another shot since you all seemed so adamant about it. Only affects ranged trash mobs, wasn't possible to even use it most fights. Boss adds were immune to the pull, maybe it's effective in raids due to a bug. Seems weird it would work on chain proof mobs to begin with.

I still have no use for it, if anything it slows things down because I'm focusing on blocking fringe npcs I could just as easily taunt and ignore.

Magdalina

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

Swarm Mother works on those Grievous Twatlight's too.

Are they immune to chains? I didn't actually know that because I've been talking on templar with Swarm forever and I'm just so used to it pulling all the things at this point

paulsimonps

@Autolycus

Did vICP cause it was the pledge today. You are right, harvesters in vICP can be chained with swarm mother and not Unrelenting grip. Not only that, but Watchers can be chained with swarm mother as well but not with Unrelenting grip. Also I could chain the Harvester at the first boss in the same way. Its just about getting lucky with the swarm mother proc cause you have so many things hitting you. All those mages.

Will do vWGT soon I hope if I can get a good group for it and will try and double check all those mobs too. But yea this is turning out interesting. Swarm mother is really over performing in my opinion. As well I have noticed situations were unrelenting grip should not work but they do, in regards to elevation, and other situations were they obviously should but they don't(which is way more common). More testing to be had.

Sordidfairytale

Calvary Caltrops and Swarm Mother makes for an interesting combination.

Autolycus

@paulsimonps @Magdalina

I agree, it certainly does seem to be over performing. Interesting news about the Watchers... I'll pay closer attention to it next time I'm in there.

I ran vWGT again tonight and played around with the Crematorial Guards a little more. Not only does the fire breath attack proc SM and pull them if standing >5m away, so does their bite attack. It seems to have a longer melee range, as I was still pulling him from ~7-8m, and I'm positive it was the bite.

But here's the really interesting one: You know that titan right before the Planar Inhibitor? He can be pulled as well, not just at the beginning, but from what appears to be any of his ranged attacks throughout the encounter.

paulsimonps

Autolycus wrote: »

@paulsimonps @Magdalina

I agree, it certainly does seem to be over performing. Interesting news about the Watchers... I'll pay closer attention to it next time I'm in there.

I ran vWGT again tonight and played around with the Crematorial Guards a little more. Not only does the fire breath attack proc SM and pull them if standing >5m away, so does their bite attack. It seems to have a longer melee range, as I was still pulling him from ~7-8m, and I'm positive it was the bite.

But here's the really interesting one: You know that titan right before the Planar Inhibitor? He can be pulled as well, not just at the beginning, but from what appears to be any of his ranged attacks throughout the encounter.

Yea I did vWGT too and yeap, Titan, Crematorial Guardians and Grievous Twilights can all be chained with swarm mother but not with Unrelenting Grip. Also I did the DK chains on the first boss before she goes down the stairs its a lot of fun to see that and the titan fly across the rooms

Can anyone help me figure out other dungeons with Mobs with ranged attacks that are CC immune? I want to test on more things. Actually did a Normal Maw to test the mobs there, doesn't work there, which is good, would be broken OP in trash pulls otherwise.

WalksonGraves

Have guys tried it with beckoning steel?

Orbital

So many people talking numbers/
In depth strats about vet dungeons hahah
You can tank every dungeon in the game
In 7light

Swarm mother is terrible
Sentinel gives the team Stam
Warden gives the team resistance
Shadow/chokethorn gives the team more igneous and vigor

Put chains on your bar stop being a noob and learn how to stack fast and efficient

Bye

WalksonGraves

Orbital wrote: »

So many people talking numbers/
In depth strats about vet dungeons hahah
You can tank every dungeon in the game
In 7light

Swarm mother is terrible
Sentinel gives the team Stam
Warden gives the team resistance
Shadow/chokethorn gives the team more igneous and vigor

Put chains on your bar stop being a noob and learn how to stack fast and efficient

Bye

"non dk tanks"

hmsdragonfly

Orbital wrote: »

So many people talking numbers/
In depth strats about vet dungeons hahah
You can tank every dungeon in the game
In 7light

Swarm mother is terrible
Sentinel gives the team Stam
Warden gives the team resistance
Shadow/chokethorn gives the team more igneous and vigor

Put chains on your bar stop being a noob and learn how to stack fast and efficient

Bye

Hey OP, you found your soulmate. His name is Orbital.