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Dear non dk tanks, enough about swarm mother
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kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »WalksonGraves wrote: »
You don't know about positioning mobs so DD can burn them, which is very important in eng-game content, because in most cases it's DPS race?WalksonGraves wrote: »You don't know about line of sight ai mechanics?
Better yet, you think taunting all those mobs and then waiting for swarm mother is fast?
You think that people who at least try to do their job is worse than you, who even doesn't?
I do it by taunting and breaking line of sight, it really isn't hard. You're arguing about nonsense, no one is running hm anything using that ***.
Find me a run with a non dk tank wearing swarm mother.
I love the fact that you haven't understood that the discussion has moved on from Swarm mother to Chaining in general and about your ineptitude as a tank and claiming Pirate Skeleton as being BiS by a landslide.
Obviously we don't use Swarm mother in Trials cause most things are CC immune in there. But Swarm mother for non DK tanks in dungeons and vDSA is a good way to compensate for lack of chains.
I'm not going to comment on Pirate Skeleton as I have never tired it. There are better options out there...
As for the second part... Swarm Mother is not a good way, but it is the only way for non-DK tanks to pull things without using line of sight. My solution... use a DK tank when pulling is critical, because IMO Swam Mothers is just not as good as chains.
I have both a Nightblade and a DK tank that I run and there some pieces of content I won't use my Nightblade on (VDSA being one of them), but the Nightblade is great for things like Off Tank on VSO and some other things where being able to stand alone and survive is the the most important thing.Playing since beta...0 -
MaselClass RepresentativeAnd BTW you can do things very good WITH swarm mother. Done a 40k vDSA run with a templar tank with swarm mother last patch as far as I remember.
I take vdsa as a reference because it's the dungeon/trial where you have to chain in the most stuff and get scores which make different tanks somewhat comparable in a numerical way.Edited by Masel on April 3, 2017 5:26PMPC EU
All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA1 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭IronCrystal wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »WalksonGraves wrote: »
You don't know about positioning mobs so DD can burn them, which is very important in eng-game content, because in most cases it's DPS race?WalksonGraves wrote: »You don't know about line of sight ai mechanics?
Better yet, you think taunting all those mobs and then waiting for swarm mother is fast?
You think that people who at least try to do their job is worse than you, who even doesn't?
I do it by taunting and breaking line of sight, it really isn't hard. You're arguing about nonsense, no one is running hm anything using that ***.
Find me a run with a non dk tank wearing swarm mother.
I love the fact that you haven't understood that the discussion has moved on from Swarm mother to Chaining in general and about your ineptitude as a tank and claiming Pirate Skeleton as being BiS by a landslide.
Obviously we don't use Swarm mother in Trials cause most things are CC immune in there. But Swarm mother for non DK tanks in dungeons and vDSA is a good way to compensate for lack of chains.
While I agree at lot of trash in vet trials are CC immune, there are plenty of times in vMoL where chains are used.WalksonGraves wrote: »
You don't know about positioning mobs so DD can burn them, which is very important in eng-game content, because in most cases it's DPS race?WalksonGraves wrote: »You don't know about line of sight ai mechanics?
Better yet, you think taunting all those mobs and then waiting for swarm mother is fast?
You think that people who at least try to do their job is worse than you, who even doesn't?
I do it by taunting and breaking line of sight, it really isn't hard. You're arguing about nonsense, no one is running hm anything using that ***.
Find me a run with a non dk tank wearing swarm mother.
You are correct that if you can break line of sight, the ranged mobs will run to you. We use this tactic to move CC immune adds in vet trials as well. The problem is, there isn't always a way to break line of sight.
yea those small mobs at the start and by the first gauntlet/gate are something I always use chains on to get them in quickly to save time and if you get a lot of the mage ones and leave them to charge up their attacks it can deal a lot of damage. Kinda like the small archer and shamans in vSO can rek DPS's if you don't take care of them and let them be.1 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭WalksonGraves wrote: »
You don't know about positioning mobs so DD can burn them, which is very important in eng-game content, because in most cases it's DPS race?WalksonGraves wrote: »You don't know about line of sight ai mechanics?
Better yet, you think taunting all those mobs and then waiting for swarm mother is fast?
You think that people who at least try to do their job is worse than you, who even doesn't?
I do it by taunting and breaking line of sight, it really isn't hard. You're arguing about nonsense, no one is running hm anything using that ***.
Find me a run with a non dk tank wearing swarm mother.
Lol are you trolling? What line of sight in vDSA or last fight in vROM? Or pretty much any boss fight?0 -
Sordidfairytale✭✭✭✭✭I use Swarm Mother on my Sorc Tank. Never had a problem with it.
...but then again I never started a post on the forums claiming my ignorance was genius.The Vegemite Knight8 -
bstag✭✭WalksonGraves wrote: »
Like... I don even...WalksonGraves wrote: »
That's what the vmol guides say...
https://youtu.be/AOwxiHhwZM4?t=5m55s
25 minutes. Vet HM. Hello there.
Granted, it's Hodor. It's a leaderboard speedrun. But... But... But it doesn't take more than 1 hour if the group is competent!
No vet trial is several hours instance! Well... Unless someone does something wrong... You know... Especially tank...
So just for some history, this thread was about swarm mother sucking. I never claimed I was some vmol vanquishing badass. That was some dinguses who have never tried my build trying to derail the thread.
But gj comparing me to the top speed run, it was totally relevant. I bet the tank did 100% of the damage and healing to get those sick times.
This thread was about your opinion of swarm mother being bad. People disagreed. You then went on to say pirate skeleton is the best, which made us question your credibility. Then you discredited paulsimons verified calculations and called a majority of end game tanks cowards for holding block. Now we're having fun at your expense.
nom nom nom.
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Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭So uh... I'm not really sure where to start. Because I'm somewhere between "I've already wasted enough time on this OP" and "holy crap I need to do something to quell all of this nonsense." For what it's worth, this is a reoccurring theme. I have literally been down this road before.
I'm a NB tank and I do vet trials and hardmodes too. I never have claimed to be better than many of the other great tanks (and their groups) out there, but at least I'm not stupid enough to argue against sound math, or make claims about stuff I've never seen. For what it's worth:
Pirate Skeleton sucks something fierce for trials builds, it gives us next to nothing in mitigation if we're built properly to begin with and the healing nerf will get you killed on some fights. Anybody saying that a loss of 15% in healing received on the Warrior's channeled swipes is negligible has not fought hardmode Warrior. Maybe the traditional vet Warrior, but not hardmode. Furthermore, it drops your block during the transformation, which is a guaranteed death if it occurs during the channeled swipes.. or did they fix that? I wrote this set off at "reduced healing received" and wouldn't pick it back up even if it kept my block up.
Blood Spawn is overrated, especially for a NB tank. We are the best-positioned to accommodate ultimate without an ulti-regen setup. The resistances are overkill for us; we simply do not need them to do our job properly, and they aren't doing jack squat for the group, so it's wasted on two fronts. The ulti regen is nice enough, but an experienced tank who uses a proper rotation has their War Horn up for their turn every time without it.
Swarm Mother is all but pointless in trials, even though there are some enemies where chains are useful, it's not worth it to run the set for the whole thing when there should be magicka DKs in the group anyway. While I understand that for some groups taking off a dps skill to accommodate chains is potentially detrimental to the final score, the same can be said about using a NB tank in general. It's extremely important for vDSA weekly scores on non-DK tanks because the strategy for 9 out of 10 of the arenas is to stack and burn. Shaving 15-20s from every round earns more score, period. If you aren't going for scores, then who cares?
Fun fact of the day, are you ready? Did you know that Swarm Mother can proc if you're standing in volley and blocking? You don't even have to taunt! Try it out, works on players too.
Do whatever you want for dungeons, because that's how easy they are compared to vet trials. You could carry a monkey on your shoulder and wear a Hello Kitty bandana and things would still fall over by themselves in dungeons. The only time I take Swarm Mother off for dungeons is on the final boss, and even then I keep it if there are adds. I use it for all of RoM. I don't use it for Veli in CoS. Swarm Mother also works on things that Chains does not; for example, Haj Motas cannot be chained, but can be pulled by Swarm Mother. Harvesters in ICP can be pulled with SM, where they cannot with chains.Edited by Autolycus on April 3, 2017 6:20PM16 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Wow... as if every room has a corner to pull ranged mobs. This is a complete dejavu. You have no experience with vet trials, yet think you can be the authority on what is good or not. Completely ridiculous.WalksonGraves wrote: »
You don't know about positioning mobs so DD can burn them, which is very important in eng-game content, because in most cases it's DPS race?WalksonGraves wrote: »You don't know about line of sight ai mechanics?
Better yet, you think taunting all those mobs and then waiting for swarm mother is fast?
You think that people who at least try to do their job is worse than you, who even doesn't?
I do it by taunting and breaking line of sight, it really isn't hard. You're arguing about nonsense, no one is running hm anything using that ***.
Find me a run with a non dk tank wearing swarm mother.
And about that teleport+taunt+teleport back strategy of yours... Are you for real? That is just a more *** way of ranged taunting. And guess what? The ranged mob still stays where it was! Whooptyfuckingdoo!
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paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Swarm Mother also works on things that Chains does not; for example, Haj Motas cannot be chained, but can be pulled by Swarm Mother. Harvesters in ICP can be pulled with SM, where they cannot with chains.
Really? I did not know that, really cool knowledge right there.
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Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭paulsimonps wrote: »
Yessir! I've done it a number of times. I don't think it works on the Harvester that comes with the Overfiend (I guess b/c she's a mini boss and not a regular add?) I think it works on all of the other Harvesters in there, and all Haj Motas. If you find one specifically that doesn't take the bait, lemme know. The whole concept of SM working when chains does not is still some fascinating anomaly to me.Edited by Autolycus on April 3, 2017 6:26PM0 -
bstag✭✭I use it for all of RoM. I don't use it for Veli in CoS. Swarm Mother also works on things that Chains does not; for example, Haj Motas cannot be chained, but can be pulled by Swarm Mother. Harvesters in ICP can be pulled with SM, where they cannot with chains.
Thank you for taking the time to share the knowledge. I am going back to popcorn. This made the thread worth it.
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paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »
Yessir! I've done it a number of times. I don't think it works on the Harvester that comes with the Overfiend (I guess b/c she's a mini boss and not a regular add?) I think it works on all of the Haj Motas in RoM, though.
I got swarm mother for my PvP Troll tank build I might just run that on Chudan to have an easier time with his adds then even as a DK. He is a fairly easy boss to begin with but low DPS groups on that one sometimes gets overwhelmed by adds so stacking even those faster would help me out in getting low DPS groups through.1 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭paulsimonps wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »
Yessir! I've done it a number of times. I don't think it works on the Harvester that comes with the Overfiend (I guess b/c she's a mini boss and not a regular add?) I think it works on all of the Haj Motas in RoM, though.
I got swarm mother for my PvP Troll tank build I might just run that on Chudan to have an easier time with his adds then even as a DK. He is a fairly easy boss to begin with but low DPS groups on that one sometimes gets overwhelmed by adds so stacking even those faster would help me out in getting low DPS groups through.
I would certainly still use it as a DK in some places. One of my DK tanks likes to use it for vDSA even with chains, and just for fun in vet dungeon runs. He calls it his "stackmaster" build. Pretty sure it's trademarked though :P2 -
Sordidfairytale✭✭✭✭✭I feel safe to admit that I have used SM on my DK tank at times! It pulls MULTIPLE targets to you at once.paulsimonps wrote: »
Yessir! I've done it a number of times. I don't think it works on the Harvester that comes with the Overfiend (I guess b/c she's a mini boss and not a regular add?) I think it works on all of the other Harvesters in there, and all Haj Motas. If you find one specifically that doesn't take the bait, lemme know. The whole concept of SM working when chains does not is still some fascinating anomaly to me.
I like that SM has utility over chains honestly, Though I want to point out that chains will work on the first Harvester (the inquisitor) in WGT before she gets to her starting point. But only that one time. I think it's because the game sees her in "movement" mode and so she is vulnerable to chains. I never thought to try it with the Warden harvester in ICP.
The Vegemite Knight2 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »
Yessir! I've done it a number of times. I don't think it works on the Harvester that comes with the Overfiend (I guess b/c she's a mini boss and not a regular add?) I think it works on all of the Haj Motas in RoM, though.
I got swarm mother for my PvP Troll tank build I might just run that on Chudan to have an easier time with his adds then even as a DK. He is a fairly easy boss to begin with but low DPS groups on that one sometimes gets overwhelmed by adds so stacking even those faster would help me out in getting low DPS groups through.
I would certainly still use it as a DK in some places. One of my DK tanks likes to use it for vDSA even with chains, and just for fun in vet dungeon runs. He calls it his "stackmaster" build. Pretty sure it's trademarked though :P
Basically what I do in PvP. DK Tank with Chains+Swarm mother with Fasalla's and Black Rose. Get plenty of hate whispers
I can't kill anyone by myself but standing in the middle of a breach and then survive everything most people can't and chaining everyone into said breach and they fall in a few second from all the AoE and siege on that spot 5 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭WalksonGraves wrote: »You missed my point, pulling mobs is never necessary and sacrificing a monster helm to do so is ridiculous. Btw Pirate is by far the best choice for tanks. It's pretty obvious I don't get why the forums are so slow to realize.WalksonGraves wrote: »You missed my point, pulling mobs is never necessary and sacrificing a monster helm to do so is ridiculous. Btw Pirate is by far the best choice for tanks. It's pretty obvious I don't get why the forums are so slow to realize.
Yeah when you have trouble surviving I guess bone pirates might seem like the best. Once you get over that hurdle though, you see that every piece of gear a ta k wears is to boost the group not their survivability. So lord warden if it's a tough stacked fight with lots of damage going out. Like the troll boss in vSO. You use ebon to save from one hit mechanics, use Alkosh/powerful assualt to boost group damage, even the health set (Plague I think) not because it boosts you health alone but because it boosts your shield size. You run warhorn or magma armor to boost DPS or shield your group. Tavah, werewolf hide, dragon, bloodspawn all to boost your ultigen so you can give out more more more utility.
So to that point, a set that pulls in far away targets, makes for GREAT utility for a tank that doesn't have chains. Bloodspawn is slightly less useful on non DK tanks because sorcs get reduced ulti costs, Nightblades get potion passive and templars get reduced ulti and if they are running power of the light they get ulti back aswell.
And a set that makes you tankier does absolutely nothing for the group whatsoever. Except make YOU tankier, and while you're still learning that's great but once you've become comfortable as a tank, it is just horrible.4 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭For what it's worth, I think Swarm Mother should be on a 1s cooldown. It makes sense to me, and feel free to throw out reasons for why it shouldn't be changed, but everything already operates on a 1s GCD. DKs can already get two pulls in a single second, so it wouldn't adversely impact the class, nor would it make other classes better at stacking than DKs. This would, however, make it twice as efficient for non-DK tanks, which would balance things out a little when it comes to utility.Sordidfairytale wrote: »I like that SM has utility over chains honestly, Though I want to point out that chains will work on the first Harvester (the inquisitor) in WGT before she gets to her starting point. But only that one time. I think it's because the game sees her in "movement" mode and so she is vulnerable to chains. I never thought to try it with the Warden harvester in ICP.
I agree, I think that DK chains are unique to the class and simply giving everyone else chains would diminish their inherent strengths. Having just a couple of things where SM works and chains doesn't makes it more versatile without adversely impacting class balance.
I noticed that with The Adjudicator too. I've been able to pull her as she's coming down the steps, but not once she's stopped moving. Good to have that confirmation, I was still am confused as to why it works that way. It might actually be the same case for the Harvester on the Overfiend in ICP then, come to think of it. I typically pull everything into the hallway just before the Overfiend and use the wall to LoS everything through the door. Usually by the time I taunt the Harvester, she's already at the door anyway (so SM isn't needed for that fight). But maybe if I taunted her right out of the portal, it would pull her?1 -
WalksonGraves✭✭✭✭✭
✭So uh... I'm not really sure where to start. Because I'm somewhere between "I've already wasted enough time on this OP" and "holy crap I need to do something to quell all of this nonsense." For what it's worth, this is a reoccurring theme. I have literally been down this road before.
I'm a NB tank and I do vet trials and hardmodes too. I never have claimed to be better than many of the other great tanks (and their groups) out there, but at least I'm not stupid enough to argue against sound math, or make claims about stuff I've never seen. For what it's worth:
Pirate Skeleton sucks something fierce for trials builds, it gives us next to nothing in mitigation if we're built properly to begin with and the healing nerf will get you killed on some fights. Anybody saying that a loss of 15% in healing received on the Warrior's channeled swipes is negligible has not fought hardmode Warrior. Maybe the traditional vet Warrior, but not hardmode. Furthermore, it drops your block during the transformation, which is a guaranteed death if it occurs during the channeled swipes.. or did they fix that? I wrote this set off at "reduced healing received" and wouldn't pick it back up even if it kept my block up.
Blood Spawn is overrated, especially for a NB tank. We are the best-positioned to accommodate ultimate without an ulti-regen setup. The resistances are overkill for us; we simply do not need them to do our job properly, and they aren't doing jack squat for the group, so it's wasted on two fronts. The ulti regen is nice enough, but an experienced tank who uses a proper rotation has their War Horn up for their turn every time without it.
Swarm Mother is all but pointless in trials, even though there are some enemies where chains are useful, it's not worth it to run the set for the whole thing when there should be magicka DKs in the group anyway. While I understand that for some groups taking off a dps skill to accommodate chains is potentially detrimental to the final score, the same can be said about using a NB tank in general. It's extremely important for vDSA weekly scores on non-DK tanks because the strategy for 9 out of 10 of the arenas is to stack and burn. Shaving 15-20s from every round earns more score, period. If you aren't going for scores, then who cares?
Fun fact of the day, are you ready? Did you know that Swarm Mother can proc if you're standing in volley and blocking? You don't even have to taunt! Try it out, works on players too.
Do whatever you want for dungeons, because that's how easy they are compared to vet trials. You could carry a monkey on your shoulder and wear a Hello Kitty bandana and things would still fall over by themselves in dungeons. The only time I take Swarm Mother off for dungeons is on the final boss, and even then I keep it if there are adds. I use it for all of RoM. I don't use it for Veli in CoS. Swarm Mother also works on things that Chains does not; for example, Haj Motas cannot be chained, but can be pulled by Swarm Mother. Harvesters in ICP can be pulled with SM, where they cannot with chains.
Blows my mind that 90% of what you said I agree with.
Thing about losing 15% healing is it's barely noticeable when you have a base of +26%.
The 30% defense is very apparent in comparison.Edited by WalksonGraves on April 3, 2017 7:25PM0 -
bstag✭✭
Contradict much?WalksonGraves wrote: »Blows my mind that 90% of what you said I agree with.
Thing about losing 15% healing is it's barely noticeable when you have a base of +26%.
The 30% defense is very apparent in comparison.
Edited by bstag on April 3, 2017 7:48PM1 -
WalksonGraves✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Contradict much?WalksonGraves wrote: »Blows my mind that 90% of what you said I agree with.
Thing about losing 15% healing is it's barely noticeable when you have a base of +26%.
The 30% defense is very apparent in comparison.
Yeah, I agreed with everything he said unrelated to pirate. People stopped saying "much" at the end a sentence 20 years ago.Edited by WalksonGraves on April 3, 2017 7:54PM0 -
bstag✭✭
At one time, schoolchildren were taught that a sentence should never end with a preposition. However, this is a philosophy actually associated with Latin grammar. While many aspects of Latin have made their way into the English language, this particular grammar rule is not suited for modern English usage.WalksonGraves wrote: »Yeah, I agreed with everything he said unrelated to pirate. People stopped saying "much" at the end a sentence 20 years ago.
There are times when trying to avoid ending a sentence with a preposition creates unnecessary and awkward phrasing. For example, Winston Churchill once reportedly exclaimed, "That is the sort of thing up with which I will not put!" to mock someone who criticized him for ending a sentence with a preposition. Since the purpose of writing is to clearly communicate your thoughts and ideas, it’s perfectly acceptable to end a sentence with a preposition if the alternative would create confusion.
I was only doing it to not confuse you.
Edited by bstag on April 3, 2017 8:02PM7 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭WalksonGraves wrote: »So uh... I'm not really sure where to start. Because I'm somewhere between "I've already wasted enough time on this OP" and "holy crap I need to do something to quell all of this nonsense." For what it's worth, this is a reoccurring theme. I have literally been down this road before.
I'm a NB tank and I do vet trials and hardmodes too. I never have claimed to be better than many of the other great tanks (and their groups) out there, but at least I'm not stupid enough to argue against sound math, or make claims about stuff I've never seen. For what it's worth:
Pirate Skeleton sucks something fierce for trials builds, it gives us next to nothing in mitigation if we're built properly to begin with and the healing nerf will get you killed on some fights. Anybody saying that a loss of 15% in healing received on the Warrior's channeled swipes is negligible has not fought hardmode Warrior. Maybe the traditional vet Warrior, but not hardmode. Furthermore, it drops your block during the transformation, which is a guaranteed death if it occurs during the channeled swipes.. or did they fix that? I wrote this set off at "reduced healing received" and wouldn't pick it back up even if it kept my block up.
Blood Spawn is overrated, especially for a NB tank. We are the best-positioned to accommodate ultimate without an ulti-regen setup. The resistances are overkill for us; we simply do not need them to do our job properly, and they aren't doing jack squat for the group, so it's wasted on two fronts. The ulti regen is nice enough, but an experienced tank who uses a proper rotation has their War Horn up for their turn every time without it.
Swarm Mother is all but pointless in trials, even though there are some enemies where chains are useful, it's not worth it to run the set for the whole thing when there should be magicka DKs in the group anyway. While I understand that for some groups taking off a dps skill to accommodate chains is potentially detrimental to the final score, the same can be said about using a NB tank in general. It's extremely important for vDSA weekly scores on non-DK tanks because the strategy for 9 out of 10 of the arenas is to stack and burn. Shaving 15-20s from every round earns more score, period. If you aren't going for scores, then who cares?
Fun fact of the day, are you ready? Did you know that Swarm Mother can proc if you're standing in volley and blocking? You don't even have to taunt! Try it out, works on players too.
Do whatever you want for dungeons, because that's how easy they are compared to vet trials. You could carry a monkey on your shoulder and wear a Hello Kitty bandana and things would still fall over by themselves in dungeons. The only time I take Swarm Mother off for dungeons is on the final boss, and even then I keep it if there are adds. I use it for all of RoM. I don't use it for Veli in CoS. Swarm Mother also works on things that Chains does not; for example, Haj Motas cannot be chained, but can be pulled by Swarm Mother. Harvesters in ICP can be pulled with SM, where they cannot with chains.
Blows my mind that 90% of what you said I agree with.
Thing about losing 15% healing is it's barely noticeable when you have a base of +26%.
The 30% defense is very apparent in comparison.
Really, you agree? Cuz the last time I offered you any semblance of advice you practically ripped my head off. What if I told you that +26% is better than +11%?
It's already been explained to you a few times that you're not getting a full 30% mitigation. You actually aren't getting anywhere close to that, so you can't keep saying 30% like it's actually 30%. It's the same reason people don't run Footman anymore, because at the bottom line it's nowhere near the benefit that's stated. So you're giving up that 15% healing received for a whopping 3% mitigation. Fantastic. That's going to reduce the Warrior's channeled sweeps by... let's see here, like 700 points of damage? Meanwhile you still just took 20k+ points from a single hit, and the healer can't burst you back up because you're Defiled, so you die.
I've seen first-hand what happens to tanks who wear Pirate Skeleton on hardmode Warrior.... the tank switches sets every time. You would honestly, and I'm being completely serious here, be better off with more magicka recovery and just spamming Annulment. Have one of your group members keep guard on you and just spam annulment during the channeled sweeps.
It's weird to see you bashing @paulsimonps without even checking the math he provides, especially when he's among the top tanks in ESO. This guy has helped countless groups (not just tanks) figure out how to optimize their builds. Have you not seen his lengthy explanation on mitigation? Not to suggest that he needs to be double-checked, but I've run a lot of those numbers myself and have yet to see one time where he was wrong. I mean hell, I think I'm a pretty good tank but I still go back to check those values when I make changes to my build. You can't argue with the math. Want to double-check the annulment + guard thing I suggested? Go look at his thread; that's where I got it from.
Also a bit off-topic, but that's the second time your mind has been blown today right? You should monitor that. It certainly explains a few things.Edited by Autolycus on April 3, 2017 8:09PM9 -
Oakmontowls_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Can pirate skeleton still have the defile part of the proc purged? I know it used to be able to.0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭WalksonGraves wrote: »So uh... I'm not really sure where to start. Because I'm somewhere between "I've already wasted enough time on this OP" and "holy crap I need to do something to quell all of this nonsense." For what it's worth, this is a reoccurring theme. I have literally been down this road before.
I'm a NB tank and I do vet trials and hardmodes too. I never have claimed to be better than many of the other great tanks (and their groups) out there, but at least I'm not stupid enough to argue against sound math, or make claims about stuff I've never seen. For what it's worth:
Pirate Skeleton sucks something fierce for trials builds, it gives us next to nothing in mitigation if we're built properly to begin with and the healing nerf will get you killed on some fights. Anybody saying that a loss of 15% in healing received on the Warrior's channeled swipes is negligible has not fought hardmode Warrior. Maybe the traditional vet Warrior, but not hardmode. Furthermore, it drops your block during the transformation, which is a guaranteed death if it occurs during the channeled swipes.. or did they fix that? I wrote this set off at "reduced healing received" and wouldn't pick it back up even if it kept my block up.
Blood Spawn is overrated, especially for a NB tank. We are the best-positioned to accommodate ultimate without an ulti-regen setup. The resistances are overkill for us; we simply do not need them to do our job properly, and they aren't doing jack squat for the group, so it's wasted on two fronts. The ulti regen is nice enough, but an experienced tank who uses a proper rotation has their War Horn up for their turn every time without it.
Swarm Mother is all but pointless in trials, even though there are some enemies where chains are useful, it's not worth it to run the set for the whole thing when there should be magicka DKs in the group anyway. While I understand that for some groups taking off a dps skill to accommodate chains is potentially detrimental to the final score, the same can be said about using a NB tank in general. It's extremely important for vDSA weekly scores on non-DK tanks because the strategy for 9 out of 10 of the arenas is to stack and burn. Shaving 15-20s from every round earns more score, period. If you aren't going for scores, then who cares?
Fun fact of the day, are you ready? Did you know that Swarm Mother can proc if you're standing in volley and blocking? You don't even have to taunt! Try it out, works on players too.
Do whatever you want for dungeons, because that's how easy they are compared to vet trials. You could carry a monkey on your shoulder and wear a Hello Kitty bandana and things would still fall over by themselves in dungeons. The only time I take Swarm Mother off for dungeons is on the final boss, and even then I keep it if there are adds. I use it for all of RoM. I don't use it for Veli in CoS. Swarm Mother also works on things that Chains does not; for example, Haj Motas cannot be chained, but can be pulled by Swarm Mother. Harvesters in ICP can be pulled with SM, where they cannot with chains.
Blows my mind that 90% of what you said I agree with.
Thing about losing 15% healing is it's barely noticeable when you have a base of +26%.
The 30% defense is very apparent in comparison.
Really, you agree? Cuz the last time I offered you any semblance of advice you practically ripped my head off. What if I told you that +26% is better than +11%?
It's already been explained to you a few times that you're not getting a full 30% mitigation. You actually aren't getting anywhere close to that, so you can't keep saying 30% like it's actually 30%. It's the same reason people don't run Footman anymore, because at the bottom line it's nowhere near the benefit that's stated. So you're giving up that 15% healing received for a whopping 3% mitigation. Fantastic. That's going to reduce the Warrior's channeled sweeps by... let's see here, like 700 points of damage? Meanwhile you still just took 20k+ points from a single hit, and the healer can't burst you back up because you're Defiled, so you die.
I've seen first-hand what happens to tanks who wear Pirate Skeleton on hardmode Warrior.... the tank switches sets every time. You would honestly, and I'm being completely serious here, be better off with more magicka recovery and just spamming Annulment. Have one of your group members keep guard on you and just spam annulment during the channeled sweeps.
It's weird to see you bashing @paulsimonps without even checking the math he provides, especially when he's among the top tanks in ESO. This guy has helped countless groups (not just tanks) figure out how to optimize their builds. Have you not seen his lengthy explanation on mitigation? Not to suggest that he needs to be double-checked, but I've run a lot of those numbers myself and have yet to see one time where he was wrong. I mean hell, I think I'm a pretty good tank but I still go back to check those values when I make changes to my build. You can't argue with the math. Want to double-check the annulment + guard thing I suggested? Go look at his thread; that's where I got it from.
Also a bit off-topic, but that's the second time your mind has been blown today right? You should monitor that. It certainly explains a few things.
5 -
KanedaSyndrome✭✭✭✭KanedaSyndrome's Suggestions For Game Improvements
The Fortuitous Collapse of the Wave Equation
The Best Plans Require No Action0 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Paul had to turn me off and make things ewwww with his vulgar display of math. But anyways, I got a shoulder last night and tried it out a bit.
The swarm mother did work pretty good in dungeons ; but as soon it pulls the adds in they run right back away. It did not work so great in AA for me, so I swapped in EG. For HelRa I switched to Lord Warden.0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭WalksonGraves wrote: »
Like... I don even...WalksonGraves wrote: »
That's what the vmol guides say...https://youtu.be/AOwxiHhwZM4?t=5m55s
25 minutes. Vet HM. Hello there.
Granted, it's Hodor. It's a leaderboard speedrun. But... But... But it doesn't take more than 1 hour if the group is competent!
No vet trial is several hours instance! Well... Unless someone does something wrong... You know... Especially tank...
So just for some history, this thread was about swarm mother sucking. I never claimed I was some vmol vanquishing badass. That was some dinguses who have never tried my build trying to derail the thread.
But gj comparing me to the top speed run, it was totally relevant. I bet the tank did 100% of the damage and healing to get those sick times.
But you saidWalksonGraves wrote: »Btw Pirate is by far the best choice for tanks. It's pretty obvious I don't get why the forums are so slow to realize.
So it's a "No". Confirmed. You have never tanked vMoL HM succesfully with Pirate Skeleton and Reactive or whatever.
Edited by hmsdragonfly on April 4, 2017 12:04PMAldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!4 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭WalksonGraves wrote: »
You don't know about positioning mobs so DD can burn them, which is very important in eng-game content, because in most cases it's DPS race?WalksonGraves wrote: »You don't know about line of sight ai mechanics?
Better yet, you think taunting all those mobs and then waiting for swarm mother is fast?
You think that people who at least try to do their job is worse than you, who even doesn't?
I do it by taunting and breaking line of sight, it really isn't hard. You're arguing about nonsense, no one is running hm anything using that ***.
Find me a run with a non dk tank wearing swarm mother.
Just show us your video of tanking vMoL HM pls. Or a video of you LOS-ing in vDSA.
Edited by hmsdragonfly on April 4, 2017 12:21PMAldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!3
