Why hasn't root spam been addressed yet?

arkansas_ESO

Seriously. I don't get it. Lambert and Wheeler both PVP every night, yet anybody that's spent an hour zerg surfing knows how incredibly powerful Encase spam is. It's gotten to a point where it feels like every group should have a dedicated Encase spammer/Negate bot, or else they're just gimping themselves. And I'm not the only that feels this way--when you look at larger organized groups like @FENGRUSH 's you'll see them running multiple sorcs whose entire purpose is to spam Encase and Negate.


Can we at least get some word on whether or not ZOS is okay with this, or if we can expect a change?

Domander

If only there was an alliance war ability meant to counter a group immobilize.

thankyourat

Encase and talons are the worse. I swear people just run around spamming roots and holding block. This style of gameplay requires little skill.

Taylor_MB

Domander wrote: »

If only there was an alliance war ability meant to counter a group immobilize.

It does cost almost double that of Encase, so the winner of spam wars is predetermined.

Now if it granted a 1-2 second immunity also....

NBrookus

Domander wrote: »

If only there was an alliance war ability meant to counter a group immobilize.

If only that skill were as cheap as encase, was available at a cost non-stamina characters could use, and didn't vanish when you cast a heal.

Domander

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

If only there was an alliance war ability meant to counter a group immobilize.

It does cost almost double that of Encase, so the winner of spam wars is predetermined.

Now if it granted a 1-2 second immunity also....

Well, there's Efficient Purge (which costs my sorc around 900 more magicka than restraining) which will clear it (and poisons and dots and debuffs etc) and make any other effects last half as long for the next 6 seconds.

or there's Retreating Maneuver which will clear it and make everyone immune until they cast something, so that gives everyone immunity and a speed buff to reposition...

When a player is immune, Encase costs magicka and does nothing.

arkansas_ESO

Domander wrote: »

If only there was an alliance war ability meant to counter a group immobilize.

If only it didn't cost 10% of my magic pool...

Taylor_MB

Domander wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

If only there was an alliance war ability meant to counter a group immobilize.

It does cost almost double that of Encase, so the winner of spam wars is predetermined.

Now if it granted a 1-2 second immunity also....

Well, there's Efficient Purge (which costs my sorc around 900 more magicka than restraining) which will clear it (and poisons and dots and debuffs etc) and make any other effects last half as long for the next 6 seconds.

or there's Retreating Maneuver which will clear it and make everyone immune until they cast something, so that gives everyone immunity and a speed buff to reposition...

When a player is immune, Encase costs magicka and does nothing.

I was more thinking of the Negate + Root scenario the OP eluded to. Retreating Maneuver is the only (skill based) option.

Domander

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

If only there was an alliance war ability meant to counter a group immobilize.

It does cost almost double that of Encase, so the winner of spam wars is predetermined.

Now if it granted a 1-2 second immunity also....

Well, there's Efficient Purge (which costs my sorc around 900 more magicka than restraining) which will clear it (and poisons and dots and debuffs etc) and make any other effects last half as long for the next 6 seconds.

or there's Retreating Maneuver which will clear it and make everyone immune until they cast something, so that gives everyone immunity and a speed buff to reposition...

When a player is immune, Encase costs magicka and does nothing.

I was more thinking of the Negate + Root scenario the OP eluded to. Retreating Maneuver is the only (skill based) option.

Ah yeah, there's dodge roll also, and retreating does give immunity, it just breaks after using an ability. It used to make roots and snares pointless. Groups would just run through well defended breaches with no problems, which is why breaking on ability use was a great freaking change. It can still quickly get your group out of negate (and other ultimates) though.

Sheuib

Root spam needs to stay in the game. There are some builds that if you don't keep them locked down they will never die. They will just keep running around that tree, rock or whatever until you just get so bored with the fight that you want to die just to go somewhere else. If you get rid of root spam you get rid of one of the few counters to that play style.

zyk

It's fine if you run counters.

The main problem, IMO, is the lack of Magicka counters which makes many players feel they are forced to convert to Vampirism for Elusive Mist.

Kas

it has been addressed when bombard was changed.
previously, there was a skill which bested talons and encase in also very way possible.
that's no longer the cast now.

that these skills are incredibly strong themselves, is another story. the worst ting, though, is that th best counters are probably maneuver spam > purge spam > forward momentum > mistform > shuffle and with the best ones being available to larger groups only. especially maneuver spam almost requires and entire player to be build for it and makes her/him close to useless for stuff outside this role (hoiwever, keep in mind that root spam also almost takes a player out completely)

DHale

Likely due to shuffle and mist form... what root spam issue?

DoccEff

I just don't understand why there is no cc-immunity to roots. And no, neither purge nor rapid maneuvers is gonna do anything against rootspam.

RinaldoGandolphi

DHale wrote: »

Likely due to shuffle and mist form... what root spam issue?

Poisons with Immobilize will root players in Mist Form and ignore Shuffle and rapids

Ever get rooted in Mist for and don't know why? That's why...poisons with immobilize

Sanct16

L2P.

NeillMcAttack

DoccEff wrote: »

I just don't understand why there is no cc-immunity to roots. And no, neither purge nor rapid maneuvers is gonna do anything against rootspam.

Both shuffle and retreating maneuver grant immunity to roots!!!!

AAbrigo

Roots/talons still need a cooldown ! Nothing like that should be able to be spammed!

KILLING4ALIVING

What is worse, if you try to streak away you get rooted by your streak.

Minno

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Likely due to shuffle and mist form... what root spam issue?

Poisons with Immobilize will root players in Mist Form and ignore Shuffle and rapids

Ever get rooted in Mist for and don't know why? That's why...poisons with immobilize

Nothing like a solid weapon tipped with liquid poison being able to inject itself into a mix of blood/air particles in a gas state

Jamini

Yes, let's further dumb down the game and make it even more effective to simply stack damage!

But seriously.
1. Roots and snares need to remain without a cooldown as you can cleanse or make yourself immune to them entirely.
2. Other CC should be split up some. Hard CCs (Mezzes, Fears, Long stuns) and Soft CCs (Pulls, Knockback/Knockups, Knockdowns) should really be split into different timers.
3. Abilities that can be cast proactively to prevent hardCCs should be more accessible. Forcing a player to actively protect against eating a fear/stun/mez much like magicka casters need to recast shields.
4. CC-resistance/immunity should increase the more you are focused by CC. To encourage careful use and discourage spam.

Right now CC-immunity is part of what makes PvP in Cyrodiil kind of a joke. There is a reason Malubreth and Reactive are considered so strong.

RinaldoGandolphi

I am going to keep bumping this thread everyday till we get a response.


Root is broken....there needs to be a cool down on how often you can get rooted, or you need to give every class a skill that removes roots and snares and grants an immunity period to being rooted and snared. Im not talking about Vampire either.

Right now, if you go out in Cyrodiil you can't even move in half these fights.

Are you fighting around a keep? your snared, just assume your snared.

Did you pop Shuffle? Great your snared again.

Did you just dodge roll? Your snared mid dodge roll, coming out of the dodge roll your still rooted all the time.

This is the most infuriating thing to any player in this game is being unable to move.

Do we remember how terrible the Bombard spamming was? Encase/Talons right now is just as bad as Bombard was....Not being able to move your character is every bit as powerful as a stun, knockdown, etc....its broken to be able to repeatedly spam roots on people.

Something needs to be done about this.(Immunity after the root wears off or is dodge rolled out of would be a good start) Being forced to be a Vampire and use Mist form is not an answer for magic users, and the root and snare immunity of Shuffle doesn't always work which is why you see stam builds spamming it.

Rohamad_Ali

I think Wheeler plays a Templar and they have a cleanse . Mobility is an issue in PVP but the good organized groups have a dedicated Rapids user and a Templar cleanse with a Sorc to negate the negates ..ect . This issue falls on the solo players and the Zerg surfers to which you really need to pick your battles solo . Some people are saying L2P and as rude as that may sound , it is a little bit true .

RinaldoGandolphi

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I think Wheeler plays a Templar and they have a cleanse . Mobility is an issue in PVP but the good organized groups have a dedicated Rapids user and a Templar cleanse with a Sorc to negate the negates ..ect . This issue falls on the solo players and the Zerg surfers to which you really need to pick your battles solo . Some people are saying L2P and as rude as that may sound , it is a little bit true .

That's not the case though. Large groups already have more people, more healing, more DPS, and more ultimates they don't need terrible mechanics like gap closer snares and broken root spam on top of it.

I'm not asked to kill large groups, I'm asking to atleast be able to flipping move and that's not an unreasonable request.

People were defending broken hard CC back in the day when there was no cc immunity. Root spam is every bit as broken as that was.

Rickter

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

People were defending broken hard CC back in the day when there was no cc immunity. Root spam is every bit as broken as that was.

come on dude, you cant compare roots to hard CC. . .

technohic

I think its fine. Kind of made worse by the dodge roll recourse timer though. I'd like to see light and medium armor have reduction to the recourse cost, or maybe the first roll be free, the the 2nd be about what a first roll costs now including cost reductions, then the 3rd one goes into the current roll dodge recourse.

So basically; 1 free roll dodge for light and medium armor wearers.

RinaldoGandolphi

Rickter wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

People were defending broken hard CC back in the day when there was no cc immunity. Root spam is every bit as broken as that was.

come on dude, you cant compare roots to hard CC. . .

Of course you can:

Do you not know the rules of combat taught in most martial arts?

the two big ones being:

1. A man who cant see, can't fight
2. A man that can't move, can't fight


that's the reason root spam is so effective...if you can't move, you can't fight..why do you think every group is spamming Encase? Because they take away your ability to reposition and fight by taking away your ability to move.

yes, 1v1 root in itself is fine, but in organized group play it is stupidy OP just like Bombard was.

They did finally fix Bombard by not allowing it to root a target that is already snared thus giving it a cooldown.

Roots need to be treated just like hard CC, if you roll dodge out(and spend the stamina) you can't be rooted or snared again for 6 seconds. Just like you get 6 secs immunity for breaking a hard CC

spamming roots in organized group play is disgustingly broken.....even @FENGRUSH admits is broken and abusive, he only does it because there are certain Templar builds that are impossible to kill otherwise, but that doesn't mean its still not broken.

How can you not have cool downs on roots in a game where in PVP winners and losers are determined by mobility 70% of the time? Thats just crazy. You look at every fight won or lost, and in 7 out of 10 times, the one who isn't root spammed or is able to move wins those fights...this is why Stamina and Shuffle users have an easier time in solo and small man roaming compared to mag, because they are much harder to look down with root spam thanks to Forward Momentum and Shuffle, but with the way lag is, they are by no means always immune hence why you will sometimes see folks spamming Shuffle, and people accusing them of cheating, when in reality...they are just trying to get unrooted/snared so they can actually move their toon.

I mean...god forbid anyone can move in this game in any kind of fight or keep fight.

The current Encase spam meta is every bit as bad as the disgusting Thieves Guild Bombard garbage.

technohic

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

People were defending broken hard CC back in the day when there was no cc immunity. Root spam is every bit as broken as that was.

come on dude, you cant compare roots to hard CC. . .

Of course you can:

Do you not know the rules of combat taught in most martial arts?

the two big ones being:

1. A man who cant see, can't fight
2. A man that can't move, can't fight


that's the reason root spam is so effective...if you can't move, you can't fight..why do you think every group is spamming Encase? Because they take away your ability to reposition and fight by taking away your ability to move.

yes, 1v1 root in itself is fine, but in organized group play it is stupidy OP just like Bombard was.

They did finally fix Bombard by not allowing it to root a target that is already snared thus giving it a cooldown.

Roots need to be treated just like hard CC, if you roll dodge out(and spend the stamina) you can't be rooted or snared again for 6 seconds. Just like you get 6 secs immunity for breaking a hard CC

spamming roots in organized group play is disgustingly broken.....even @FENGRUSH admits is broken and abusive, he only does it because there are certain Templar builds that are impossible to kill otherwise, but that doesn't mean its still not broken.

How can you not have cool downs on roots in a game where in PVP winners and losers are determined by mobility 70% of the time? Thats just crazy. You look at every fight won or lost, and in 7 out of 10 times, the one who isn't root spammed or is able to move wins those fights...this is why Stamina and Shuffle users have an easier time in solo and small man roaming compared to mag, because they are much harder to look down with root spam thanks to Forward Momentum and Shuffle, but with the way lag is, they are by no means always immune hence why you will sometimes see folks spamming Shuffle, and people accusing them of cheating, when in reality...they are just trying to get unrooted/snared so they can actually move their toon.

I mean...god forbid anyone can move in this game in any kind of fight or keep fight.

The current Encase spam meta is every bit as bad as the disgusting Thieves Guild Bombard garbage.

Making the immunity as long as the roll dodge recourse timer makes roots completely worthless. Break free lasting 6 seconds works because its the only thing you can do and it costs quite a bit more than roll dodge.

RinaldoGandolphi

technohic wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

People were defending broken hard CC back in the day when there was no cc immunity. Root spam is every bit as broken as that was.

come on dude, you cant compare roots to hard CC. . .

Of course you can:

Do you not know the rules of combat taught in most martial arts?

the two big ones being:

1. A man who cant see, can't fight
2. A man that can't move, can't fight


that's the reason root spam is so effective...if you can't move, you can't fight..why do you think every group is spamming Encase? Because they take away your ability to reposition and fight by taking away your ability to move.

yes, 1v1 root in itself is fine, but in organized group play it is stupidy OP just like Bombard was.

They did finally fix Bombard by not allowing it to root a target that is already snared thus giving it a cooldown.

Roots need to be treated just like hard CC, if you roll dodge out(and spend the stamina) you can't be rooted or snared again for 6 seconds. Just like you get 6 secs immunity for breaking a hard CC

spamming roots in organized group play is disgustingly broken.....even @FENGRUSH admits is broken and abusive, he only does it because there are certain Templar builds that are impossible to kill otherwise, but that doesn't mean its still not broken.

How can you not have cool downs on roots in a game where in PVP winners and losers are determined by mobility 70% of the time? Thats just crazy. You look at every fight won or lost, and in 7 out of 10 times, the one who isn't root spammed or is able to move wins those fights...this is why Stamina and Shuffle users have an easier time in solo and small man roaming compared to mag, because they are much harder to look down with root spam thanks to Forward Momentum and Shuffle, but with the way lag is, they are by no means always immune hence why you will sometimes see folks spamming Shuffle, and people accusing them of cheating, when in reality...they are just trying to get unrooted/snared so they can actually move their toon.

I mean...god forbid anyone can move in this game in any kind of fight or keep fight.

The current Encase spam meta is every bit as bad as the disgusting Thieves Guild Bombard garbage.

Making the immunity as long as the roll dodge recourse timer makes roots completely worthless. Break free lasting 6 seconds works because its the only thing you can do and it costs quite a bit more than roll dodge.

Even if you made the immunity 3 seconds, it wouldn't be perfect, but it would be far better then what we have now.

Heck i'd dance the streets for 3 seconds!

Minalan

Rickter wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

People were defending broken hard CC back in the day when there was no cc immunity. Root spam is every bit as broken as that was.

come on dude, you cant compare roots to hard CC. . .

Actually you can, when you can't move it makes gameplay pretty miserable.

Without valid counterplay, roots force just about everyone into vampirism. Frankly most of us are sick of it.

Joy_Division

I don't think roots can be compared to hard CC. They aren't even close. When you are rooted, you can fight (well anyone who isn't a puncturing sweep using templar but I digress). You do just as much damage, have just as much resistance. There are a good number of times when I am rooted that I don't break it if there is no immediate threat (i.e. incoming destro bomb).

Roots are incredibly annoying for then you need to move. That is a huge difference. In the context of having to face a bomb-group, that is when roots become super dangerous because in this meta, you explode if you do not move away.

I find that being a vampire completely eliminates the annoyance and 95% of the threat that roots pose. So I don't think the issue is as much roots are too strong as Wrobel has left us with only being an undead abomination as a legit counter and bomb groups do too much instant damage.

The only time I feel a root is too OP is when it is combined with Negate. But that's because Negate is stupidly powerful, not roots.

Give a counter accessible through an Alliance War skill and change Negate so it's not the power equivalent of a 800 cost ultimate and I'd be fine.