New keep and resource capture ticks are BROKEN!!!!!!

Zvorgin

Ackwalan wrote: »

ZOS could add a diminishing reward timer for taking the same keep/resource similar to the way killing the same person works. For example, if you try and reclaim a keep within 15 minutes (just throwing that time frame out there) of the previous capture, you only get 50% of the AP. Recapture it again, and you earn 50% again, until the reward is 0 AP.

Seems like the logical fix to me.

Minno

What are you going to do with all that AP anyway?
It's only real value is to put you on the nerd-scoreboard, and even that has no competitive backing.

They need to solve that invisible bug first.

Joy_Division

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

FIXES & IMPROVEMENTS, BASE GAME PATCH

"Alliance War
General
Increased the AP rewards for quests that direct you to capture resources and keeps.
Completing a quest to capture a resource will now grant 1000 AP.
Completing a quest to capture a keep will now grant 1500 AP.
Completing quests from towns will now grant 250 AP per completed quest, and will also now grant a green-level set item.
Capturable towns in Cyrodiil now display the status of individual flags on the compass while in the areas of those towns.
Increased the base amount of AP for capturing resources to 1,500 AP.
Increased the base amount of AP for capturing a keep to 6,000 AP.
Increased the base amount of AP for capturing a town to 1,500 AP.
Increased the base amount of AP for capturing an Imperial City District to 1,500 AP."

From Patch Notes ^

The quests give a great bonus to the raised AP . These quests usually send people way out behind enemy lines in order to complete . They hardly ever give a quest to take an objective close to where your alliance already holds an objective . With these quests , I am encouraged to go out and flip resources again for the reward , instead of potatoeing the next objective closest on the map for my alliance . If I grouped up I would encourage grabbing the capture keep / castle / fort missions too as that is a nice bonus on top of capturing the objective . Those were big raises to AP on the mission boards . That is why I think it encourages spreading out . I'm having a lot of fun doing them now instead of farming dtics all the time .

If there is a better suggestion for encouraging people to spread out as far as these missions do , I would love to hear all ideas . All I care about is some better rewards for small scale play . I've enjoyed that part of this update so far but if people have better ideas great . Let's hear some .


For those worried about Grand Overlord title being diminished in value , I understand and would ask @ZOS_BrianWheeler if he would consider raising the AP needed with those high tier titles to compensate for recent gains in achievable daily AP . But let's not throw out the AP gains that are encouraging some of us to play missions once again and looking at small scale fights instead of Zerg battles .

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/308586/things-that-can-invigorate-pvp-that-do-not-mess-up-pve/p1

I have *never* picked up the randomly generated scout, capture resource, keep take, or scroll quest and said to myself, "Yep, I'm going to do that right now." I don't care if Zimmeron needs warriors to scout Brindle farm (lol I'm EP and Arrius is blue), I'm not wasting my time to do it because I log in to PvP, not write scout reports or horse simulator 10 minutes to Bloodmayne so I can try to capture an entire castle by myself. A long long time ago I do remember playing with a guild whose lead was convinced by members of the group to go to Draklowe because someone had the quest, but that guild was repeatedly farmed.

The fact of the matter is that ZoS is either too lazy or does not see PvP as a money making venture to do anything productive or exciting or meaningful to PvP or the map or how Cryodiil is played. The only thing they have ever done is try to entice us with AP because it takes about 5 minutes of coding to add some random vendor to sell random motif or some training Twin sisters Restoration staff.

I can't speak for everyone, but at least for me there are only two things that motivate me to PvP: 1) socializing with people I know and 2) actually having decent fights. The AP, reinforced Leki Shoulders, and even (gold) campaign rewards are all meh. I have over 35 million AP collected waiting to be spent; what exactly am I going to do with all of it? Even when a group I am in goes to Alessia Bridge to "farm," the AP I get is inconsequential; if I am not dumping oil on people's heads or having my kill counter ring like a cash register, then I'm not going to enjoy it.

Now we are going to have Grand Overlords of PvDoor. The game is called "Elder Scrolls Online" and now the devs had made it such where you can get 11K AP for PvDooring Brindle and its associated resources - without a quest even - and yet you get absolutely nothing for capping the Elder Scroll of Mnem (not even an achievement or a house thingy), except 1 point on the campaign scoreboard and the derision of the armchair generals in zone chat who think now the other two alliances will coordinate their efforts. With all the PvDooring, does this mean I'll still only get a 9th Gold Ring of Fury even if I win the campaign?

Wake me up when Wheeler, Frior, & company actually do something meaningful.

caeliusstarbreaker

Intended implementation- people go to different objectives because the reward is a blanket AP gain
Actuality- everyone will still get caught in the same location because the reward is guaranteed regardless of number

Prospective hope- people will look to different objectives to suit AP gains, fostering wide spread pvp
Actuality- people no longer have to actually pvp to get significant ap

Fundamental argument- AP farmer bothered that time and dedication to killing enemy players to gain vast amounts of AP now achievable for what is effectively pve
Counter argument- someone who admittedly stacks with other groups countering initial points with "insight" to not stack with other groups

@asneakybanana @Anazasi
I'm friendly with you both, and I don't harbor any ill will towards you, so in an attempt to be an unbiased 3rd party...
Yes I perceive it to be ill-design that someone regardless of method(boosting and inter-faction coordination aside) can achieve the same or more AP gain than someone who made it a point to one dimensionalize their build and game play style to killing large sums of players in close proximity, on the basis that it is still organically player vs player.

Sneaky the only solace I can give you is that the masses in this game tend to be more involved in running to a location and mashing a button in hopes to see shiny lights and dead bodies that your play style will remain vastly unchanged, and your AP gain will likely still out match them.

Taran, I think it's pretty commendable that you have been on the targeted pvp player progression and trying to push past the status quo in numbers based inevitable victory, but, in my opinion, you shouldn't take the stop blobbing stance as your reputation and the admitted comments of "we stack when needed" stand in contrast with each other, especially in this community forum. You have indeed placed yourself as a figure in the community, by being more of a vocal contributor, and hence your words will be scrutinized against your actions vigorously. I agree there should be reason for groups to venture to different areas of the huge map that is cyrodiil, I'm not sure if incentivizing pve is the best way to go about it. The best and most ideal way has always been player driven, i.e. Taking your group up to warden or Farragut, but the catch 22 is then the rest of your faction then just organically assumes you don't support them because you aren't bashing your head into ash front door for 2 years. I strongly urge that you try to take a step back from strict objective driven gameplay and try just finding good fights, as you both can't make everyone happy, and it may grant you and your guild more solace.

Edit: spelling and auto correct mistakes.

Chuga_Rei

The old argument of "I have mine it's not fair they don't get theirs!" Is ridiculous. It's not about other people not getting it. I am personally friends with a lot of the other GO's and absolutely appreciate what they did to earn it.

GO is something everyone can get, a lot of the GO's I know took 2+ years to do it, that's what made it cool.

If you want to just give the achievement to everyone like I said fine, turn it into the joke former emp is.

Ps: sneaky and others are still going to farm you. 5 stars won't help you in a battle of skill.

Jsmalls

Zos needs to put a 20 minute cool down on keeps and like 10 mins for resources (For the AP capture bonus)... Seems like it would solve this problem.

asneakybanana

Airyus wrote: »

Keeps and resources have levels 1 to 5 depending on how long they were owned. Make level 5 things worth the current base value and diminish the value down to level one. Problem solved.

+1 to you for this idea good sir. Now to actually have it implemented.

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

LOL AP farmer complaining about people getting AP that might equal the famer, oh my end of the world, sometimes snowflakes melt.

If AP and rank really meant something it might be different but having a symbol by your name that offers nothing other than epeen stroking, why worry, and if AP gain is to great zos will fix that before they fix anything else that is broken.

What I come away with from this post is some people hate the fact that average players might get the same AP as a person that see themselves as an elite AP farmer, tells me zos might have got something right, /shrug

I don't care about people making AP. I care more about what it does to pvp. This system gives the mentality for people run around and kill guards instead of players making it even harder to find fights unless you plan to ride to your back line keeps every time they flag from a 20/20 siege and hope that you make it before they get on the flags due to the rate you can siege double FD now.

I am all for finding a way for newer players to make more AP as hopefully it would encourage them to play more but to me pvdoor isn't the answer to giving newer players more AP. Since last night pretty much all we were doing was running around, see a keep or a resource ep was taking and said ooooo let's go get our free 1.5k or 6k AP. It's silly and everyone in group agreed, quite ridiculous.

Anazasi

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Intended implementation- people go to different objectives because the reward is a blanket AP gain
Actuality- everyone will still get caught in the same location because the reward is guaranteed regardless of number

Prospective hope- people will look to different objectives to suit AP gains, fostering wide spread pvp
Actuality- people no longer have to actually pvp to get significant ap

Fundamental argument- AP farmer bothered that time and dedication to killing enemy players to gain vast amounts of AP now achievable for what is effectively pve
Counter argument- someone who admittedly stacks with other groups countering initial points with "insight" to not stack with other groups

@asneakybanana @Anazasi
I'm friendly with you both, and I don't harbor any ill will towards you, so in an attempt to be an unbiased 3rd party...
Yes I perceive it to be ill-design that someone regardless of method(boosting and inter-faction coordination aside) can achieve the same or more AP gain than someone who made it a point to one dimensionalize their build and game play style to killing large sums of players in close proximity, on the basis that it is still organically player vs player.

Sneaky the only solace I can give you is that the masses in this game tend to be more involved in running to a location and mashing a button in hopes to see shiny lights and dead bodies that your play style will remain vastly unchanged, and your AP gain will likely still out match them.

Taran, I think it's pretty commendable that you have been on the targeted pvp player progression and trying to push past the status quo in numbers based inevitable victory, but, in my opinion, you shouldn't take the stop blobbing stance as your reputation and the admitted comments of "we stack when needed" stand in contrast with each other, especially in this community forum. You have indeed placed yourself as a figure in the community, by being more of a vocal contributor, and hence your words will be scrutinized against your actions vigorously. I agree there should be reason for groups to venture to different areas of the huge map that is cyrodiil, I'm not sure if incentivizing pve is the best way to go about it. The best and most ideal way has always been player driven, i.e. Taking your group up to warden or Farragut, but the catch 22 is then the rest of your faction then just organically assumes you don't support them because you aren't bashing your head into ash front door for 2 years. I strongly urge that you try to take a step back from strict objective driven gameplay and try just finding good fights, as you both can't make everyone happy, and it may grant you and your guild more solace.

Edit: spelling and auto correct mistakes.

Rhage: another player in that 3% that I truly respect. But I need some clarification on your comments.

"targeted pvp player progression and trying to push past the status quo in numbers based inevitable victory"
If by progression you mean alliance rank, what really does that mean? I do not care about being a GO, I have never ever been EMP. I have repeatedly over my 2 years of play EMP'd countless players. What I see is 49 or 50 available skill pts and the AP to buy as many sets as I want to play with and test.

"in my opinion, you shouldn't take the stop blobbing stance as your reputation and the admitted comments of "we stack when needed" stand in contrast with each other, especially in this community forum."
Interesting statement. I have consistently affirmed for over the last year and proven with either video or screen shots that our group numbers are between 12 and 24. We do not surf the zergs or stack intentionally. You can ask any member that runs with us that I constantly take my groups away from the main blobs. Yes I will admit there are times when we are at the same place with other AD groups that happens not because we are coordinating but because there is no group coordination. Yes I have admitted that we do stack especially when 60 DC or 60 EP have decided to lock themselves in ROE or Alessia and refuse to play any part of the map in hopes of a defense tick. No faction or group can say they have not stacked and I am at least honest enough to admit it.

"I'm not sure if incentivizing pve is the best way to go about it"
Human nature shows us that without incentive humans will always seek the path of least resistance or effort. So it is necessary to reward / incentivize objectives to the point that players take action elsewhere when faced with a mob/ blob barricaded behind walls. You should be able to separate the PVE content by realizing that when objectives change color players go that is the whole point of PVP. Hiding behind the premise if I take X for my faction it will start a good fight is not sound logic. When X takes a resource and stacks a raid in the tower other players comment oh they are just there to tower farm and the small groups simply move on to something else until a larger group arrives to wipe them. This is not good fights it farming and everyone knows it. If a group of players break off and start taking resources and eventually flags a keep the factional owner has to decide. If it important enough to defend. If it is players go. The end result is always players repositioning themselves across the map instead of ROE or Alessia or the bridge. The incentive is playing the objectives the problem is players who just want the "good fights" at the bridge. Yeah the battle grounds will solve this issue hopefully.

"Taking your group up to warden or Farragut, but the catch 22 is then the rest of your faction then just organically assumes you don't support them because you aren't bashing your head into ash front door for 2 years."
I've done this so many times it really doesn't matter anymore. It was a cool strategy when Frosted I think originated it and its been used several campaign to apply pressure so home keeps can be retaken. But, while we love to see BM flip RED its really boring. The faction currently doesn't care at least the AD faction doesn't. The score is the proof of that. If the faction doesn't care about the score or at least on TF enough players care about the score there is no point in map control. The reality of this can be seen daily when you look at the map. Thus, fighting EP and DC at the bridge is the only real pleasurable entertainment hence why Alessia during the day remains yellow sej red and roe blue. By the way this is player driven at least the composition of the map is and has nothing to do with ZOS AP or map objectives. This situation rests solely on the players and their choices.

I strongly urge that you try to take a step back from strict objective driven gameplay and try just finding good fights, as you both can't make everyone happy, and it may grant you and your guild more solace.
The objective is always 2 fold. The reward is always 2 fold. If you think my group is just out to pvdoor the map you are making a mistake. Like all guild groups we start out small. Small numbers mean small objectives. We take resources to draw out players for fights. When our numbers get above 12 we rattle the back lines a little harder. When we get to 16 we start knocking on doors. We are playing the map, if the other factions don't care enough to play the map fine by me. We will gladly take the AP and run. Perhaps the question is, why are the other factions NOT playing the map? My guild is always open forum. I always ask players what the want to do. I always try to make the time we spend enjoyable and fun, so we laugh a lot. We have fights constantly all over the map and by the end of my 5 hours or so I log out with over 200 kills which I have been doing since 2.6. The hardest part is finding good fights. The challenge however is splitting up the blobs of 50 players. Even with my small groups of 16 to 20 we don't always win against 30 or more. Attrition will always be key in open world PVP and frankly I have never ever claimed my guild to be equal to or better than Khole, VE or Haxus, Invictus, even though we have in the past beat them. (Please do not take this as a challenge it is not. just stating a fact)

So even though what you say is true from your perspective, It's equally true from my perspective. A v A v A is never an easy PVP mix and we have seen it all here. But my guild and groups are as happy as they can be and enjoy the play and diversity we offer. We have no drama like the cross faction guilds do. So all my respect to you and I hope you can at least acknowledge that every coin has two sides and that your view is never the only one worth hearing.

Anazasi

asneakybanana wrote: »

Airyus wrote: »

Keeps and resources have levels 1 to 5 depending on how long they were owned. Make level 5 things worth the current base value and diminish the value down to level one. Problem solved.

+1 to you for this idea good sir. Now to actually have it implemented.

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

LOL AP farmer complaining about people getting AP that might equal the famer, oh my end of the world, sometimes snowflakes melt.

If AP and rank really meant something it might be different but having a symbol by your name that offers nothing other than epeen stroking, why worry, and if AP gain is to great zos will fix that before they fix anything else that is broken.

What I come away with from this post is some people hate the fact that average players might get the same AP as a person that see themselves as an elite AP farmer, tells me zos might have got something right, /shrug

I don't care about people making AP. I care more about what it does to pvp. This system gives the mentality for people run around and kill guards instead of players making it even harder to find fights unless you plan to ride to your back line keeps every time they flag from a 20/20 siege and hope that you make it before they get on the flags due to the rate you can siege double FD now.

I am all for finding a way for newer players to make more AP as hopefully it would encourage them to play more but to me pvdoor isn't the answer to giving newer players more AP. Since last night pretty much all we were doing was running around, see a keep or a resource ep was taking and said ooooo let's go get our free 1.5k or 6k AP. It's silly and everyone in group agreed, quite ridiculous.

Are you serious? I blew coffee out my noise when I read that. Is this not the reason you made this entire thread was to complain about people making MORE AP than you?
Please tell me why you are doing it to AD at Faragyl Bloodmayne and Blackboot. If you don't like to do it what in the hell makes you think we want to do it?
Now look at the simple answer you provided. It forces players to move from the front to the rear. If changes a factions offensive pushes into defensive postures. It also forces players to move around the map splitting up the ball groups. And honestly is this not what PVP is about - defending / taking objectives. If you don't want to do it then perhaps you are just being too lazy.

Sneaky I respect you man but you are in deep water here. You need to swim to shore before you drown.

PathwayM

I think a good solution to the issue would be split the AP gained through captures among the group. This would greatly promote small scale while rewarding organized large group play.

For example lets say a resource is worth 2000. In this case a 24 man group would earn 84 ap on a resource and a group of four would make 500 ap. This would cause large organized groups to split up and tactically capture objectives rather than just steamroll everything. This also brings the ap gain for group captures below the ap gained for 1on1 kills. This model would work well with the current capture bonuses.

Thoughts?

Minno

PathwayM wrote: »

I think a good solution to the issue would be split the AP gained through captures among the group. This would greatly promote small scale while rewarding organized large group play.

For example lets say a resource is worth 2000. In this case a 24 man group would earn 84 ap on a resource and a group of four would make 500 ap. This would cause large organized groups to split up and tactically capture objectives rather than just steamroll everything. This also brings the ap gain for group captures below the ap gained for 1on1 kills. This model would work well with the current capture bonuses.

Thoughts?

Only works if AP means something to the player.

The best incentive power AP had was when ravenger was added and only obtained via pvp.

Now the BIS gear is found in PvE, making AP worthless. So the reward is easily disassociated from the action of the player. Only thing left is the campaign cycle wins and pure-fight domination.

They should fully switch to battlegrounds with a ranked ladder and be done with cyro; turn it into a PvE zone. Would take less employee hours and make them more cash than to implement a series of pvp objectives.

timidobserver

I like the increase but it probably needs to make sure you did something. Going in a PvDoor rampage shouldn't be that lucrative.

SwaminoNowlino

PathwayM wrote: »

I think a good solution to the issue would be split the AP gained through captures among the group. This would greatly promote small scale while rewarding organized large group play.

For example lets say a resource is worth 2000. In this case a 24 man group would earn 84 ap on a resource and a group of four would make 500 ap. This would cause large organized groups to split up and tactically capture objectives rather than just steamroll everything. This also brings the ap gain for group captures below the ap gained for 1on1 kills. This model would work well with the current capture bonuses.

Thoughts?

Doesn't really work. If you head to the Campaign and Alliance War sections of the forum, you'll see that the people who proudly run in the big zergs will tell you straight up they don't really care about AP. Else, why would they run in the zerg because everything is diluted. So dividing up the AP isn't going to change their behavior, because this already happens. Providing higher amounts of base AP just further rewards them for something they didn't really care about anyways, which was the initial response when Wheeler said they were going down this route.

It also further rewards the AP farmers who stack on resources for def ticks, again nothing in the new patch changes this behavior, it just rewards it further.

Its pretty simple when you break the player base down into three major groups. The groups, very generalized, are as follows (there is obviously overlap, so no one need get offended lol):

1) If you care about "winning" the campaign first and foremost, and don't particularly care about AP gains or good fights, then nothing done in this update will change that behavior. Merely provide some additional positive reinforcement of the play style. Who am I to say whether this is acceptable or not overall (my personal position is these groups are detrimental to the game both in terms of game performance and the overall quality of the PvP experience, but my opinion doesn't really matter).

2) If you care about farming AP, you already limit your group sizes to a certain extent and the strategy is largely to pull all the pugs there, stack destros, and wipe them. Again nothing in this patch has changed that substantially, just again made it more rewarding.

3) If your priority is good fights and enjoyable PvP, then again ZOS largely ignored you, because nothing really changed in this update to support or promote this game style (even though Wheeler himself admits this would be the best case scenario for overall sever performance - i.e not reaching the "critical mass of players in one area:). To accomplish this, they will have to make broader overall changes instead of just AP.

The AP change had good intentions, but ignores the stated goals and play styles expressed both through game action and forum accounts. A quick browse through the appropriate forum sections would clearly indicate AP changes will have little to no positive impact on behavior of the first two player groups, it actually rewards them. If you want to encourage and reward more of the group 3 style, then you have to force the big groups to both break apart and disperse over the entirety of Cyrodiil, and AP gains are highly unlikely to accomplish that alone.

NBrookus

PathwayM wrote: »

I think a good solution to the issue would be split the AP gained through captures among the group. This would greatly promote small scale while rewarding organized large group play.

For example lets say a resource is worth 2000. In this case a 24 man group would earn 84 ap on a resource and a group of four would make 500 ap. This would cause large organized groups to split up and tactically capture objectives rather than just steamroll everything. This also brings the ap gain for group captures below the ap gained for 1on1 kills. This model would work well with the current capture bonuses.

Thoughts?

I suggested this for resources on PTS and got crickets.

Previously, a group would commonly split up to take resources after a keep take for efficiency. Now doing that has an AP penalty. Meanwhile there's no downside to zerging resources since 24 people on a flag will flip it almost instantly.

The new resource AP has also made repairing walls very inefficient. I'm not sure how I feel about that yet; wall farmers are a thing of the past, but meanwhile no one is repairing walls even for keeps under threat.

Rohamad_Ali

There are some good suggestions here to counter the problem by @Airyus and @Psilent . Also thank you @SwaminoNowlino for explaining the objective buff suggestion , that makes sense to me . PVP should be rewarded over PVE with AP and it's difficult to come up with a easy solution to the issue . I like that Wheeler is trying and would not be against better ideas in the future . @Joy_Division , I know it's not the most exciting solution right now . I was just saying I personally like using the mission boards more with the changes . The boards have never been ideal for organized groups with a clear objective for map control , it's just that sometimes they can compliment an objective to backcap for another group taking the next objective . You have to reselect quests a lot to get one that makes sense .

Anyways thank you to those that had better solutions and ideas . I read through all of them .

This was a suggestion I made in another thread to incorporate Battlefields inside Cyrodiil for ungrouped players to spread people out .

Territory War Battlefields

I always thought using some of the empty areas of Cyrodiil to create battle field challenges that contributed to the campaign score would be a perfect blend of open world and battle field concepts . These players would not be a detriment to the campaign and would be contributing to the campaign on a smaller scale . A que inside of Cyrodiil to match even side groups in a death match with no rezzing or flags to fight for either a faction buff and score bonus or just a bonus with specialized AP currency for new gear . Winning that territory war would benefit your faction in some way , definetly with added faction score . Reward buffs for owning a Cyrodiil territory would be somethings like bonus faction AP , Bonus faction XP , Bonus to faction gold rewards for missions or reduced cost for siege equipment . Nothing OP . The faction score bonus is still the objective . There could be several of these around the map to complete each hour reducing zergs and increasing competive play .

This would be apart of the base game in Cyrodiil with no paywall to rejuvenate the war .

bubbygink

I agree with what many have said. I think one (or both) of the following changes should be made:

1. Split the AP evenly between the group that takes it. So 10 people take a resource they all get 150 AP, if 3 people take it they all get 500, etc.
2. Base the AP gain off the level of the resource. So make it 1500 AP if it is level 5, 1200 at 4, 900 at 3, 600 at 2, and 300 at 1. Do the same with keeps but increments of 1200.

You could even mix these changes together if you want. So if 3 players take a level 2 resource they all get (600/3) 200 AP.

frozywozy

Joy_Division wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

FIXES & IMPROVEMENTS, BASE GAME PATCH

"Alliance War
General
Increased the AP rewards for quests that direct you to capture resources and keeps.
Completing a quest to capture a resource will now grant 1000 AP.
Completing a quest to capture a keep will now grant 1500 AP.
Completing quests from towns will now grant 250 AP per completed quest, and will also now grant a green-level set item.
Capturable towns in Cyrodiil now display the status of individual flags on the compass while in the areas of those towns.
Increased the base amount of AP for capturing resources to 1,500 AP.
Increased the base amount of AP for capturing a keep to 6,000 AP.
Increased the base amount of AP for capturing a town to 1,500 AP.
Increased the base amount of AP for capturing an Imperial City District to 1,500 AP."

From Patch Notes ^

The quests give a great bonus to the raised AP . These quests usually send people way out behind enemy lines in order to complete . They hardly ever give a quest to take an objective close to where your alliance already holds an objective . With these quests , I am encouraged to go out and flip resources again for the reward , instead of potatoeing the next objective closest on the map for my alliance . If I grouped up I would encourage grabbing the capture keep / castle / fort missions too as that is a nice bonus on top of capturing the objective . Those were big raises to AP on the mission boards . That is why I think it encourages spreading out . I'm having a lot of fun doing them now instead of farming dtics all the time .

If there is a better suggestion for encouraging people to spread out as far as these missions do , I would love to hear all ideas . All I care about is some better rewards for small scale play . I've enjoyed that part of this update so far but if people have better ideas great . Let's hear some .


For those worried about Grand Overlord title being diminished in value , I understand and would ask @ZOS_BrianWheeler if he would consider raising the AP needed with those high tier titles to compensate for recent gains in achievable daily AP . But let's not throw out the AP gains that are encouraging some of us to play missions once again and looking at small scale fights instead of Zerg battles .

Now we are going to have Grand Overlords of PvDoor. The game is called "Elder Scrolls Online" and now the devs had made it such where you can get 11K AP for PvDooring Brindle and its associated resources - without a quest even - and yet you get absolutely nothing for capping the Elder Scroll of Mnem (not even an achievement or a house thingy), except 1 point on the campaign scoreboard and the derision of the armchair generals in zone chat who think now the other two alliances will coordinate their efforts. With all the PvDooring, does this mean I'll still only get a 9th Gold Ring of Fury even if I win the campaign?

Wake me up when Wheeler, Frior, & company actually do something meaningful.

Rohamad_Ali

bubbygink wrote: »

I agree with what many have said. I think one (or both) of the following changes should be made:

1. Split the AP evenly between the group that takes it. So 10 people take a resource they all get 150 AP, if 3 people take it they all get 500, etc.
2. Base the AP gain off the level of the resource. So make it 1500 AP if it is level 5, 1200 at 4, 900 at 3, 600 at 2, and 300 at 1. Do the same with keeps but increments of 1200.

You could even mix these changes together if you want. So if 3 players take a level 2 resource they all get (600/3) 200 AP.

This is not bad . Maybe don't discourage small four man groups as much and start the diminishing values at five man groups . After all Mojican did establish for everyone that 5 man groups are the basis of a Zerg . So we should start punishing AP gains at five people .

Nutshotz

Wait did someone say bomblade..... I made 200k by actually pvp'ing last night in 3.5 hrs. Solo is fun now. No destro no pve dooring. Oh and hale. We should bomb together!

Magus

There goes my solace. I enjoyed watching PM videos and seeing their AP/Hr meter at 10k/hr and 15k/hr on good days. Guess there is no detriment to running in a 48 man anymore.

KisoValley

Rather they fix invisible players. AP is worthless, so are ranks other than for achievement points. Do I agree with it? No, but there are much bigger issues lol. Would rather see a QQ thread about invisible people than this.

olivesforge

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

LOL AP farmer complaining about people getting AP that might equal the famer, oh my end of the world, sometimes snowflakes melt.

If AP and rank really meant something it might be different but having a symbol by your name that offers nothing other than epeen stroking, why worry, and if AP gain is to great zos will fix that before they fix anything else that is broken.

What I come away with from this post is some people hate the fact that average players might get the same AP as a person that see themselves as an elite AP farmer, tells me zos might have got something right, /shrug

What's funny is that at the time sneaky posted a group with plenty of haxus players (not sure if it was actual) was getting repeatedly roasted at Ash Milegate by DD. We chased them through 3 FCs all the way to Aleswell. Decided to take Ayrenn's Ski Lodge while we were up there. Good times.

Anazasi

Well it seems there are a lot of ideas but no one has had the insight yet to simply watch and see what happens. Everyone thinks the world will come to an end now that AP is so accessible and frankly that's just not happened yet. In fact it may not happen at all. Perhaps the sentiment will become the direct opposite of this and nothing will change or perhaps pve content will become part of the group play, we simply do not know. I also think the fear of change in such a measurable way has sent many into a frenzy over something that honestly they have no real control over and systematically calling for a nerf to something so new feels more like a knee jerk reaction based on fear of the what if's. I think too that ZOS is smart enough to monitor this and adjust incrementally when hard evidence is presented by their metrics. My advice, as it has been for the last few cycles is still the best advice. Play to have fun and incorporate as much of the experiences offered into your cycle of play. No one likes to fight in zergs the lag is just too much. Spread out there is a huge map to play on instead of just the bridge.

Sneaky as always you provide good entertainment both on the forums as well as on the field. No hard feelings harbored on my side hope you feel the same way. Lets just have fun and play the way we want to play.

Time to teach the kids about the "Age of Enlightenment" should be an interesting lecture on "Common Sense."

Glory

Sad to see the personal attacks on OP rather than addressing the topic.

I'm honestly disappointed in the fact that people are able to earn this much AP in such an exploitative and uninvolved fashion.
AP/rank doesn't really mean too much to me normally, but I feel kind of offput when people are apparently gaining more AP in a few hours than I will earn in a week simply by PvEing.

I would like to see strong diminishing returns on keep and resource captures to prevent this issue. Perhaps even based on individual resources (ex: you do not gain AP from retaking the same resource within x minutes) to stop shady flipping much like emperorship has become.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

For those worried about Grand Overlord title being diminished in value , I understand and would ask @ZOS_BrianWheeler if he would consider raising the AP needed with those high tier titles to compensate for recent gains in achievable daily AP . But let's not throw out the AP gains that are encouraging some of us to play missions once again and looking at small scale fights instead of Zerg battles .

Asking for an increase in AP needed for ranks is an insult to those who prefer not to PvE farm and actually try to PvP to gain their promotions. I am by no means a high rank due to real life constrictions/lack of skill, but I am proud of my rank based on my time commitment and the fact that I actually PvP.

NightbladeMechanics

I've been lurking. Can't believe this went live...same as the invis bug. Scaling the ap rewards with the level of the objective is a really clever solution, or just doing away with it altogether.

@Chuga_Rei they mean the pvdoor zergs will seek out remote objectives to trade, far from uncooperative enemies.

Rohamad_Ali

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Sad to see the personal attacks on OP rather than addressing the topic.

I'm honestly disappointed in the fact that people are able to earn this much AP in such an exploitative and uninvolved fashion.
AP/rank doesn't really mean too much to me normally, but I feel kind of offput when people are apparently gaining more AP in a few hours than I will earn in a week simply by PvEing.

I would like to see strong diminishing returns on keep and resource captures to prevent this issue. Perhaps even based on individual resources (ex: you do not gain AP from retaking the same resource within x minutes) to stop shady flipping much like emperorship has become.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

For those worried about Grand Overlord title being diminished in value , I understand and would ask @ZOS_BrianWheeler if he would consider raising the AP needed with those high tier titles to compensate for recent gains in achievable daily AP . But let's not throw out the AP gains that are encouraging some of us to play missions once again and looking at small scale fights instead of Zerg battles .

Asking for an increase in AP needed for ranks is an insult to those who prefer not to PvE farm and actually try to PvP to gain their promotions. I am by no means a high rank due to real life constrictions/lack of skill, but I am proud of my rank based on my time commitment and the fact that I actually PvP.

How is that an insult to ask for the Title achievement to be raised to compensate for new AP gains ? There is no way to tell how many Grand Overlords got their title through only exclusive PVP . We don't know who used a resto staff or who PvDoored to get a achievement and who didn't . The only way to maintain the level of commitment to achieve the title is to in fact increase the AP needed . There is no way to stop player opinion on what is or is not a true Grand Overlord . That's just opinion . I am not insulting the title or anyone that has obtained it by suggesting ways to keep its integrity and being understanding of its diminished state . You are WAY to easily insulted to think that .

Crown

To prove the point, there are 12 of us who just spent an hour trading resources in a circle - 6 AD and 6 DC.

If you time it perfectly, you can make in the area of 250k AP / hour with an AP buff. This is more AP than anything but the most hard core and amazing AP farm can do in normal fights, and even then it's not sustainable in normal PvP.

As dirty as it seems/feels to do, the numbers don't lie, and to our understanding (been discussing this for a while in TS and guild chat) there's nothing wrong with (against the TOS) grinding resources back and forth.

Some people made good suggestions about making the resource/keep AP based on how long it's been owned, and/or splitting the AP between people even with the increase, or just lower the base AP per person to something that makes it favourable to fight over..

@ZOS_GinaBruno I'm sure we're all curious if the intent was to enable insane AP farms like this, or was this an oversight that will be changed in future? Normal players (even in the insane days of AP farming over a year ago) can't compete with this..

Rohamad_Ali

Crown wrote: »

To prove the point, there are 12 of us who just spent an hour trading resources in a circle - 6 AD and 6 DC.

If you time it perfectly, you can make in the area of 250k AP / hour with an AP buff. This is more AP than anything but the most hard core and amazing AP farm can do in normal fights, and even then it's not sustainable in normal PvP.

As dirty as it seems/feels to do, the numbers don't lie, and to our understanding (been discussing this for a while in TS and guild chat) there's nothing wrong with (against the TOS) grinding resources back and forth.

Some people made good suggestions about making the resource/keep AP based on how long it's been owned, and/or splitting the AP between people even with the increase, or just lower the base AP per person to something that makes it favourable to fight over..

@ZOS_GinaBruno I'm sure we're all curious if the intent was to enable insane AP farms like this, or was this an oversight that will be changed in future? Normal players (even in the insane days of AP farming over a year ago) can't compete with this..

If players were so inclined to play this way the could before the update . It's shady as hell but not against the TOS . They got gains based on AP across the board back then too . So they could get more AP then legit players way before this update .

They can still jog the system now and get even more bit AP gains are more for everyone accross the board now . So it really doesn't change anything . The only thing that has changed is the amount of AP everyone is getting . That's it .

The biggest down side is the effect on prices for AP rewards . With those costing the same and more obtainable , their value is lowered . So PVP gear / schematics pricing drops .

NiclasFridholm

Rather have people making AP by playing the map and taking keeps then farming on a pointless bridge...

caeliusstarbreaker

Anazasi wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Intended implementation- people go to different objectives because the reward is a blanket AP gain
Actuality- everyone will still get caught in the same location because the reward is guaranteed regardless of number

Prospective hope- people will look to different objectives to suit AP gains, fostering wide spread pvp
Actuality- people no longer have to actually pvp to get significant ap

Fundamental argument- AP farmer bothered that time and dedication to killing enemy players to gain vast amounts of AP now achievable for what is effectively pve
Counter argument- someone who admittedly stacks with other groups countering initial points with "insight" to not stack with other groups

@asneakybanana @Anazasi
I'm friendly with you both, and I don't harbor any ill will towards you, so in an attempt to be an unbiased 3rd party...
Yes I perceive it to be ill-design that someone regardless of method(boosting and inter-faction coordination aside) can achieve the same or more AP gain than someone who made it a point to one dimensionalize their build and game play style to killing large sums of players in close proximity, on the basis that it is still organically player vs player.

Sneaky the only solace I can give you is that the masses in this game tend to be more involved in running to a location and mashing a button in hopes to see shiny lights and dead bodies that your play style will remain vastly unchanged, and your AP gain will likely still out match them.

Taran, I think it's pretty commendable that you have been on the targeted pvp player progression and trying to push past the status quo in numbers based inevitable victory, but, in my opinion, you shouldn't take the stop blobbing stance as your reputation and the admitted comments of "we stack when needed" stand in contrast with each other, especially in this community forum. You have indeed placed yourself as a figure in the community, by being more of a vocal contributor, and hence your words will be scrutinized against your actions vigorously. I agree there should be reason for groups to venture to different areas of the huge map that is cyrodiil, I'm not sure if incentivizing pve is the best way to go about it. The best and most ideal way has always been player driven, i.e. Taking your group up to warden or Farragut, but the catch 22 is then the rest of your faction then just organically assumes you don't support them because you aren't bashing your head into ash front door for 2 years. I strongly urge that you try to take a step back from strict objective driven gameplay and try just finding good fights, as you both can't make everyone happy, and it may grant you and your guild more solace.

Edit: spelling and auto correct mistakes.

Rhage: another player in that 3% that I truly respect. But I need some clarification on your comments.

"targeted pvp player progression and trying to push past the status quo in numbers based inevitable victory"
If by progression you mean alliance rank, what really does that mean? I do not care about being a GO, I have never ever been EMP. I have repeatedly over my 2 years of play EMP'd countless players. What I see is 49 or 50 available skill pts and the AP to buy as many sets as I want to play with and test.

"in my opinion, you shouldn't take the stop blobbing stance as your reputation and the admitted comments of "we stack when needed" stand in contrast with each other, especially in this community forum."
Interesting statement. I have consistently affirmed for over the last year and proven with either video or screen shots that our group numbers are between 12 and 24. We do not surf the zergs or stack intentionally. You can ask any member that runs with us that I constantly take my groups away from the main blobs. Yes I will admit there are times when we are at the same place with other AD groups that happens not because we are coordinating but because there is no group coordination. Yes I have admitted that we do stack especially when 60 DC or 60 EP have decided to lock themselves in ROE or Alessia and refuse to play any part of the map in hopes of a defense tick. No faction or group can say they have not stacked and I am at least honest enough to admit it.

"I'm not sure if incentivizing pve is the best way to go about it"
Human nature shows us that without incentive humans will always seek the path of least resistance or effort. So it is necessary to reward / incentivize objectives to the point that players take action elsewhere when faced with a mob/ blob barricaded behind walls. You should be able to separate the PVE content by realizing that when objectives change color players go that is the whole point of PVP. Hiding behind the premise if I take X for my faction it will start a good fight is not sound logic. When X takes a resource and stacks a raid in the tower other players comment oh they are just there to tower farm and the small groups simply move on to something else until a larger group arrives to wipe them. This is not good fights it farming and everyone knows it. If a group of players break off and start taking resources and eventually flags a keep the factional owner has to decide. If it important enough to defend. If it is players go. The end result is always players repositioning themselves across the map instead of ROE or Alessia or the bridge. The incentive is playing the objectives the problem is players who just want the "good fights" at the bridge. Yeah the battle grounds will solve this issue hopefully.

"Taking your group up to warden or Farragut, but the catch 22 is then the rest of your faction then just organically assumes you don't support them because you aren't bashing your head into ash front door for 2 years."
I've done this so many times it really doesn't matter anymore. It was a cool strategy when Frosted I think originated it and its been used several campaign to apply pressure so home keeps can be retaken. But, while we love to see BM flip RED its really boring. The faction currently doesn't care at least the AD faction doesn't. The score is the proof of that. If the faction doesn't care about the score or at least on TF enough players care about the score there is no point in map control. The reality of this can be seen daily when you look at the map. Thus, fighting EP and DC at the bridge is the only real pleasurable entertainment hence why Alessia during the day remains yellow sej red and roe blue. By the way this is player driven at least the composition of the map is and has nothing to do with ZOS AP or map objectives. This situation rests solely on the players and their choices.

I strongly urge that you try to take a step back from strict objective driven gameplay and try just finding good fights, as you both can't make everyone happy, and it may grant you and your guild more solace.
The objective is always 2 fold. The reward is always 2 fold. If you think my group is just out to pvdoor the map you are making a mistake. Like all guild groups we start out small. Small numbers mean small objectives. We take resources to draw out players for fights. When our numbers get above 12 we rattle the back lines a little harder. When we get to 16 we start knocking on doors. We are playing the map, if the other factions don't care enough to play the map fine by me. We will gladly take the AP and run. Perhaps the question is, why are the other factions NOT playing the map? My guild is always open forum. I always ask players what the want to do. I always try to make the time we spend enjoyable and fun, so we laugh a lot. We have fights constantly all over the map and by the end of my 5 hours or so I log out with over 200 kills which I have been doing since 2.6. The hardest part is finding good fights. The challenge however is splitting up the blobs of 50 players. Even with my small groups of 16 to 20 we don't always win against 30 or more. Attrition will always be key in open world PVP and frankly I have never ever claimed my guild to be equal to or better than Khole, VE or Haxus, Invictus, even though we have in the past beat them. (Please do not take this as a challenge it is not. just stating a fact)

So even though what you say is true from your perspective, It's equally true from my perspective. A v A v A is never an easy PVP mix and we have seen it all here. But my guild and groups are as happy as they can be and enjoy the play and diversity we offer. We have no drama like the cross faction guilds do. So all my respect to you and I hope you can at least acknowledge that every coin has two sides and that your view is never the only one worth hearing.

@Anazasi

"Pvp player progression..."- the often inherent evolution of player from pug, to non voice com "organized group" to voice com organized group, to lowering/capping group to certain amount to allow for greater coordination and tighter gameplay or to the small scale world where existing in a much more concise 2-6 man group world. It's not a diminutive remark. But the vast majority of player tend to go through those being marks to some degree. You have gone through it and regardless of opposin position are in the latter stages. It has nothing to do with actual AR rank.

" blobbing et al."- everyone has at some instance been involved in the greater aspect of zerging, some separate themselves as being the strategic maneuver element and an entity all their own ie haxus, earlier havoc/DiE, some of them view themselves as the the faction back bone i.e. VE, whatever guild name Crown was calling his guild at the time, Fantasia. The main thing here is it is mostly subjective as I've been a member of a 3 man that you have dropped 4 destro ulti on as you have been a member of group number "x" that haxus has jumped on. To make remarks about not blobbing in an objective oriented circle, when you also deem it acceptable or occasionally necessary comes off more like "it's not ok for others to stack when it ends with me losing." And in the case of public appeal, discerningly appears paradoxical.


"Warden and map objective"- basically just discussing campaign climate and addressing potential other ways to occupy time and increase game enjoyment since fighting the structure of the game just lends to frustration as I have experienced.

"Incentivizing pve"- the shift to increase AP to lower group numbers was a good change as, especially now, with spending options for AP (whether they are decent enough is another discussion.) incentivizing people, to fundamentally pve, diminishes the value of AP gain by person(s) who are actually pvp'ing. The blanket AP gain per objective on paper seems nice, but the reality, it is advertising against the exact fabric of player vs player. That is the point in getting to. Where there is so much concern in a community and animosity between small group vs AP farmers vs map play vs emp achievement hunters etc, the installation of a way to effectively gain AP.. By not pvping, is not a good thing since it destroys the inherent fabric of a player vs player format. It's like saying, I can get vicious ophidian gear, by dueling in craglorn. I agree there should be some incentive for people to spread out but offering reward for people to not pvp just doesn't make sense, to me any way.

Haha pvp is a crazy mix of who knows what any more.
I understand there are different views on it this is just my reflection on it. Hopefully the other parts of mention are more clearly defined, if not you're welcomed to message me in game.

Again, none of this is said in a conflictive manner, as we have had a pretty compliant and positive accord so far.

Added: the world of pvp isn't gonna end, things will likely carry on as they continuously do in cyrodiil. It's not a huge deal, unless abused, which as everything else probably will. It just potentially lessens or cheapens some achievements.