New keep and resource capture ticks are BROKEN!!!!!!

Crown

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

If players were so inclined to play this way the could before the update . It's shady as hell but not against the TOS

@Rohamad_Ali Before the patch, it would require feeding. Our process was simply:
1. AD group takes the flag
2. DC group takes the flag
3. Repeat

At no time (other than a few accidents or when someone got really bored and decided to be trollish) did anyone die / feed. If there was feeding and ticks for that, it would be a LOT more than this.

Rohamad_Ali

Crown wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

If players were so inclined to play this way the could before the update . It's shady as hell but not against the TOS

@Rohamad_Ali Before the patch, it would require feeding. Our process was simply:
1. AD group takes the flag
2. DC group takes the flag
3. Repeat

At no time (other than a few accidents or when someone got really bored and decided to be trollish) did anyone die / feed. If there was feeding and ticks for that, it would be a LOT more than this.

I understand completely . I still think this is a issue no matter how much AP changes . People will still "game" the system until ZoS enforces some kind of a rule but they can't even come up with any rules for this let alone enforce one . So it's even less work now for them . They don't even need to buy a camp .

To me it's a much bigger issue then just AP . AP is the catalyst that fuels the bigger issue .

Edit to say I don't mean rule , I mean system too . ZoS can't come up with a counter system . We need better systems as suggested in here to avoid relying on ZoS to enforce rules . That never works out right .

Psilent

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

If players were so inclined to play this way the could before the update . It's shady as hell but not against the TOS

@Rohamad_Ali Before the patch, it would require feeding. Our process was simply:
1. AD group takes the flag
2. DC group takes the flag
3. Repeat

At no time (other than a few accidents or when someone got really bored and decided to be trollish) did anyone die / feed. If there was feeding and ticks for that, it would be a LOT more than this.

I understand completely . I still think this is a issue no matter how much AP changes . People will still cheat the system until ZoS enforces some kind of a rule but they can't even come up with any rules for this let alone enforce one . So it's even less work now for them . They don't even need to buy a camp .

To me it's a much bigger issue then just AP . AP is the catalyst that fuels the bigger issue .

Edit to say I don't mean rule , I mean system too . ZoS can't come up with a counter system . We need better systems as suggested in here to avoid relying on ZoS to enforce rules . That never works out right .

Seems like ZOS knows about the type of behavior that can occur and is watching closely. Just posting below for all to see as it's buried in another thread.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

As far as the AP changes go; we have been going through the numbers are comfortable with how they shape up vs. the potential farming/exploiting cases that already exist and hypothetically exist. As stated, we'll be monitoring player behavior patterns and AP gains not only from the numbers stand point, but also by playing out there in Cyrodiil with you guys and gals.

Soul_Demon

Crown wrote: »

To prove the point, there are 12 of us who just spent an hour trading resources in a circle - 6 AD and 6 DC.

If you time it perfectly, you can make in the area of 250k AP / hour with an AP buff. This is more AP than anything but the most hard core and amazing AP farm can do in normal fights, and even then it's not sustainable in normal PvP.

As dirty as it seems/feels to do, the numbers don't lie, and to our understanding (been discussing this for a while in TS and guild chat) there's nothing wrong with (against the TOS) grinding resources back and forth.

Some people made good suggestions about making the resource/keep AP based on how long it's been owned, and/or splitting the AP between people even with the increase, or just lower the base AP per person to something that makes it favourable to fight over..

@ZOS_GinaBruno I'm sure we're all curious if the intent was to enable insane AP farms like this, or was this an oversight that will be changed in future? Normal players (even in the insane days of AP farming over a year ago) can't compete with this..

We already know the solution for this I think....end the homing of multiple factions on one server. More difficult to get a cooperative group that way at the very least to do this sort of thing. Really, this is all the boosters have been doing for a long time with AP at resources, just a little different in that it can be done by groups of players rather than 20 or so 'buddies' playing multiple factions.

Crown

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I understand completely . I still think this is a issue no matter how much AP changes . People will still cheat the system until ZoS enforces some kind of a rule but they can't even come up with any rules for this let alone enforce one.

@Rohamad_Ali Other than replace "cheat" with "game", I agree with you. When we started this, we made absolutely certain that everyone who joined in was aware not to kill each other and that there was to be NO feeding. There will always be ways to creatively achieve your goals outside the scope of what is normally expected. As long as you don't cross the line to actual "cheating", as much as it may pain me to say this, I don't believe that anything should be done to those people. It's on ZOS to change the rules, be clear and concise in what they are, and change the game such that things like this don't work (or confirm that this is what they intended).

Rohamad_Ali

Any new system we come up with seems to have a back draw to legitimate play . Say they put a cool down on resources for AP gains . Sure that prevents farmers from farming but what about legit back and forth battles at resources ? With AD this happens a lot at Roe farm with DC and AD legitimately going back and forth to keep the offensive for DC and AD trying to keep DC out . That flag can flip dozens of times in an hour legitimately .

Do we take away AP for those players playing legit to stop farmers from gaming the system ? Man I don't know . This is why all this is a conundrum to me .

G0ku

Sanct16 wrote: »

Grand Overlord doesn't mean anything either since the AP increase...

Grand Overlord always showed who´s best at cheesy and bordline exploiting, there was never a positive aspect to it. "Normal" players who been long enough in pvp know this and "pro-pvp´ers" will never admit.

Rohamad_Ali

Crown wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I understand completely . I still think this is a issue no matter how much AP changes . People will still cheat the system until ZoS enforces some kind of a rule but they can't even come up with any rules for this let alone enforce one.

@Rohamad_Ali Other than replace "cheat" with "game", I agree with you. When we started this, we made absolutely certain that everyone who joined in was aware not to kill each other and that there was to be NO feeding. There will always be ways to creatively achieve your goals outside the scope of what is normally expected. As long as you don't cross the line to actual "cheating", as much as it may pain me to say this, I don't believe that anything should be done to those people. It's on ZOS to change the rules, be clear and concise in what they are, and change the game such that things like this don't work (or confirm that this is what they intended).

I edited my post as I didn't mean cheating in the sense of breaking the TOS , I meant in the way of not exactly intended by the Devs but also not against the rules . I am thinking "jogging the system" is correct terminology ? Not sure so I put gaming .My wording is bad so please forgive the unintended references .

nagarjunna

Sigh, well @asneakybanana is right...

Blackboot mine is returning 6k AP per flip. With the Boss buff and other stuff it goes to 7.2k and up.

A group of Yellow/Blue people have wrecked the Haderus leader boards by flipping it all night and are continuing to do so as of this post... They have been reported but the damage has been done

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom - you need to look at that and fix ASAP.

Anazasi

nagarjunna wrote: »

Sigh, well @asneakybanana is right...

Blackboot mine is returning 6k AP per flip. With the Boss buff and other stuff it goes to 7.2k and up.

A group of Yellow/Blue people have wrecked the Haderus leader boards by flipping it all night and are continuing to do so as of this post... They have been reported but the damage has been done

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom - you need to look at that and fix ASAP.

This is a bug because of bad programming and has been noted on the bug forum last night. Yeah its going to be abused unless a group goes in and stops it.
Maybe the devs will log in and play GM for once

olsborg

They should do with keeps and resources as they do with players, if youve died recently, you give less AP. So if keep has been capped lately, it should give less AP if capped again.

Crispen_Longbow

Crown wrote: »

To prove the point, there are 12 of us who just spent an hour trading resources in a circle - 6 AD and 6 DC.

If you time it perfectly, you can make in the area of 250k AP / hour with an AP buff. This is more AP than anything but the most hard core and amazing AP farm can do in normal fights, and even then it's not sustainable in normal PvP.

As dirty as it seems/feels to do, the numbers don't lie, and to our understanding (been discussing this for a while in TS and guild chat) there's nothing wrong with (against the TOS) grinding resources back and forth.

Some people made good suggestions about making the resource/keep AP based on how long it's been owned, and/or splitting the AP between people even with the increase, or just lower the base AP per person to something that makes it favourable to fight over..

@ZOS_GinaBruno I'm sure we're all curious if the intent was to enable insane AP farms like this, or was this an oversight that will be changed in future? Normal players (even in the insane days of AP farming over a year ago) can't compete with this..

Was this the video they just posted in this other thread?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/320097/guild-factions-taking-turns-in-abusing-exploiting-resources-for-leaderboard#latest

Was this on the resource that has a Bug with it?

pcar944

Crispen_Longbow wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

To prove the point, there are 12 of us who just spent an hour trading resources in a circle - 6 AD and 6 DC.

If you time it perfectly, you can make in the area of 250k AP / hour with an AP buff. This is more AP than anything but the most hard core and amazing AP farm can do in normal fights, and even then it's not sustainable in normal PvP.

As dirty as it seems/feels to do, the numbers don't lie, and to our understanding (been discussing this for a while in TS and guild chat) there's nothing wrong with (against the TOS) grinding resources back and forth.

Some people made good suggestions about making the resource/keep AP based on how long it's been owned, and/or splitting the AP between people even with the increase, or just lower the base AP per person to something that makes it favourable to fight over..

@ZOS_GinaBruno I'm sure we're all curious if the intent was to enable insane AP farms like this, or was this an oversight that will be changed in future? Normal players (even in the insane days of AP farming over a year ago) can't compete with this..

Was this the video they just posted in this other thread?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/320097/guild-factions-taking-turns-in-abusing-exploiting-resources-for-leaderboard#latest

Was this on the resource that has a Bug with it?

that is the one I learned about last night

but apparently there is more then one

t3hdubzy

Just wait til they realize they can do the districts even faster solo

maxjapank

Playing semantics with words like "gaming the system", "cheating", "exploiting" "not explicitly against the tos" is not going to justify or make it seem less bad. If two groups are purposely trading a resource for the sole purpose of earning AP, then it is "cheating" in my book. If two groups are battling each other, the main purpose being to defeat the other, but earn AP in the process, then that's intended. Intent is very important here.

Chuga_Rei

maxjapank wrote: »

Playing semantics with words like "gaming the system", "cheating", "exploiting" "not explicitly against the tos" is not going to justify or make it seem less bad. If two groups are purposely trading a resource for the sole purpose of earning AP, then it is "cheating" in my book. If two groups are battling each other, the main purpose being to defeat the other, but earn AP in the process, then that's intended. Intent is very important here.

He knows that. He is attempting to save face lol.

Lexxypwns

Anazasi wrote: »

Even with my small groups of 16 to 20

That's not a small group, don't kid yourself

ExcaliburESO

LOL, i knew that when zos change values most of 'alot of free time' pvpers will start whining about how other can get decent ap and rank up faster. Like seriously this is only reason for me to actaully take different keeps and capture resources. And not run around in 10 man groups with exploitive builds and killing all the pugs in a tower. This should stay as it is so stop crying about someone getting good ap and dont be greedy.

Crown

.

Chuga_Rei wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Playing semantics with words like "gaming the system", "cheating", "exploiting" "not explicitly against the tos" is not going to justify or make it seem less bad. If two groups are purposely trading a resource for the sole purpose of earning AP, then it is "cheating" in my book. If two groups are battling each other, the main purpose being to defeat the other, but earn AP in the process, then that's intended. Intent is very important here.

He knows that. He is attempting to save face lol.

Not at all. I was asked by a friend this morning for my opinion on the matter, and I told him exactly what I wrote earlier; My understanding of the legalese (as discussed with a lawyer who plays with us) is that it is not against the TOS, and while some people would be upset - mostly because they themselves are not making as much AP, as long as there was no feeding of ticks (purposefully killing each other to feed AP) then we see no issue with trading resources the same as I see no issue with trading keeps the way @asneakybanana posted. It's boring, not challenging, and many people consider it a waste of time after the first 20 minutes, though if they choose to do so they are entitled to try. You are also entitled to go disrupt it if you can.

You may consider something "cheating", and you're entitled to your opinion. At the end of the day, it's what is in the legal contract that determines whether it is cheating or not. You might want to read up on some sociology courses and morals vs ethics vs laws.

What you're thinking is that the "honourable combat killing your opponents in face to face combat to make AP" is the only way to play. That's how the grand majority of players play most of the time, though how often is a small group trampled by a zerg and complains about it? How often is someone 1-shot by a cheese build? How often do you get hate whispers when in a 1v1 or 1v2 fight in the middle of running/riding somewhere, you use a tree to break LoS and your opponent whinges about it? We all know that exploit skills and sets, various builds that are complete cheese and a plethora of other issues exist that let many people auto-win most of their fights. That stuff has gotten so old that nobody makes a big deal of it anymore, it's just accepted that it happens. Even without the resource providing more AP than it should, 200k+ / hour is realistic and viable if groups from opposite factions cooperate to make AP by trading captures without feeding kills.

I posted this morning about this issue, and the rest of the afternoon the groups who were doing this had various people trying to disrupt them - which as I'm told was more fun than just trading resources. It was happening on every campaign by different groups until prime time (5pm eastern ish). Listening to friends on TS and getting whisper updates from many others was quite entertaining most of the day while I was on conference calls for work. I do hope they keep it up - as the salt and insanity makes for great entertainment when they post the screen shots of hate whispers.

maxjapank

Crown wrote: »

You may consider something "cheating", and you're entitled to your opinion. At the end of the day, it's what is in the legal contract that determines whether it is cheating or not. You might want to read up on some sociology courses and morals vs ethics vs laws.

Wow! When you dig a hole, you just keep digging!

Minalan

Ackwalan wrote: »

ZOS could add a diminishing reward timer for taking the same keep/resource similar to the way killing the same person works. For example, if you try and reclaim a keep within 15 minutes (just throwing that time frame out there) of the previous capture, you only get 50% of the AP. Recapture it again, and you earn 50% again, until the reward is 0 AP.

That's what should happen, lets see how long they take to implement it.

Skinzz

Well good thing i got grand overlord months ago. Don't gotta be associated with those fake 5stars lol.

Fruitdog

Minalan wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

ZOS could add a diminishing reward timer for taking the same keep/resource similar to the way killing the same person works. For example, if you try and reclaim a keep within 15 minutes (just throwing that time frame out there) of the previous capture, you only get 50% of the AP. Recapture it again, and you earn 50% again, until the reward is 0 AP.

That's what should happen, lets see how long they take to implement it.

NO ETA!

Erynyes

Chuga_Rei wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Playing semantics with words like "gaming the system", "cheating", "exploiting" "not explicitly against the tos" is not going to justify or make it seem less bad. If two groups are purposely trading a resource for the sole purpose of earning AP, then it is "cheating" in my book. If two groups are battling each other, the main purpose being to defeat the other, but earn AP in the process, then that's intended. Intent is very important here.

He knows that. He is attempting to save face lol.

saving what face, he always used shady stuff anyway, we all know the smell of bad fish

ExcaliburESO

asneakybanana wrote: »

Airyus wrote: »

Keeps and resources have levels 1 to 5 depending on how long they were owned. Make level 5 things worth the current base value and diminish the value down to level one. Problem solved.

+1 to you for this idea good sir. Now to actually have it implemented.

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

LOL AP farmer complaining about people getting AP that might equal the famer, oh my end of the world, sometimes snowflakes melt.

If AP and rank really meant something it might be different but having a symbol by your name that offers nothing other than epeen stroking, why worry, and if AP gain is to great zos will fix that before they fix anything else that is broken.

What I come away with from this post is some people hate the fact that average players might get the same AP as a person that see themselves as an elite AP farmer, tells me zos might have got something right, /shrug

I don't care about people making AP. I care more about what it does to pvp. This system gives the mentality for people run around and kill guards instead of players making it even harder to find fights unless you plan to ride to your back line keeps every time they flag from a 20/20 siege and hope that you make it before they get on the flags due to the rate you can siege double FD now.

I am all for finding a way for newer players to make more AP as hopefully it would encourage them to play more but to me pvdoor isn't the answer to giving newer players more AP. Since last night pretty much all we were doing was running around, see a keep or a resource ep was taking and said ooooo let's go get our free 1.5k or 6k AP. It's silly and everyone in group agreed, quite ridiculous.

Get ur point but, from my experience ap gain has been boosted greatly by this and if u want to find a fight dont hide near rocks or towers go to those resources and kill players capturing them voila u got some fights... and hope u not one of those ppl, that hit with ult from sneak and then infinite roll dodge and blinking to rocks...
So far i like this new ap gain actually now can go take keeps get good ap for it and help my alliance get some points to win campaing, and when somone try to take it i just defend it. Instead of running with zergs near BRK and Chalman. Good change zos:)

ExcaliburESO

Sanct16 wrote: »

It was quite obvious that it will get exploited but at this point I don't really care anymore. There is no use for AP anyway so people will not bother exploiting it for too long. Grand Overlord doesn't mean anything either since the AP increase...

So whatever... In 4 months we get Battlegrounds

What Grand Overlord meant before this ? that u have alot of free time and alot of friends with free time.
There alot of Grand Overlords that are not rly known for being good player. And there are alot of rly good players who dont have it (im not talking about myself im noob) because they dont run around in big ts groups with bis gear exploitable sets and ap farming tactics. Thats the truth.

Chuga_Rei

Crown I'm not going to argue back and forth with you on what you deem is acceptable and what isn't

Like I said in another thread I'm not emotionally invested enough to worry about it.

As I read these forums I think more about what really matters and none of this does.

I agree, you didn't do anything illegal.

Some of these people are friends of mine, I don't think less of them or even mind that they want to make AP as easily as possible.

As someone who earned GO the old fashioned way you are one of the what, 100-150 of us worldwide who know what it took? I know you can earn it legitimately.

That doesn't mean that you know this doesn't completely trivialize all the work and time it took, in fact you know that better than anyone.

I'm not mad at you, or anyone else, I don't think you are a cheater, I just think this is sad to see.

Anyone can say "oh ya we stacked destro ulti and farmed pugs durrhurre" lol ya you can trivialize that all you want but funny, when stacked against similar odds you turned into something chaff while "haxus" or any of the other Top pvp guilds continued to farm actual PLAYERS while the people saying it's the same thing will now go grind mobs.

And if you think I don't understand the PVE grind, ask my guild about me farming mothers sorrow swords for 3 days straight. I didn't leave those crypts until I killed 1.5 million gold worth of mobs in deshaan lol

Izaki

Oh i guess i'll get vigor and caltroos in an h9ur then sounds good.

Chuga_Rei

No one was saying grand overlord and skill go hand in hand.

But the "a lot of free time" argument doesn't hold up. You need a lot less free time when you can make 12 million AP in a month than you do if you make 1.

Valencer

You'd think AP should be rewarded for winning fights that arent entirely lopsided in your favour.

Now all those Big Boss AD morning caps on PC EU Trueflame (that usually involve 50v10 rolling over keeps) arent just perfectly viable, but actually also getting rewarded? Mind boggling.

Forget about the exploit potential for a moment. The change just makes no damn sense and promotes PvDooring and zerging over anything else. Is ZOS even trying to create a good PvP environment anymore or have they gone full *** and decided to try to make Cyrodiil as much of a hellhole as they possibly can?

It's just not worth the energy anymore