Again can we actually balance dark deal already.

Derra

Simple change: Make dark deal cost resources when interrupted.

Riga_Mortis

The skill itself is fine, if anything maybe up the cast time to 1.5 seconds from 1 second. Theres a lot more " balancing " that needs to be done before DD even gets looked at Imo.

pieratsos

MakoFore wrote: »

leave it alone. all classes have means of disengaging from combat, refiling their resources,

templars can drain bodies, night blades can go freaking invisible, dos have igneous, stam sorcs have of all the classes- the least melee class skills- at least- we have dark deal. believe me- id trade dark deal for claws, or lashes - but as it is- its all we ve got.

leave it alone.

and to the ddevelopers- leet hope they ve learned not to be as impressionable and easily bent as in the past. there is a difference between a balance issue and a learn to play issue.

if there is one skill that allows sorcs to shine it isn't dark deal- its crit surge. look at the vma leaderboard s - there are 100 above 50k for sorc- and barely 30 even finishing for every other class!

the reason? crit surge. not having to worry about healing is making the class very very strong in solo content. not that i mind. but thats the op skill not dark deal .

The thread is about PVP. Bringing PVE into this to make a point isnt gonna help you. It just shows that u have no idea about what ur talking about. But i totally agree with one thing u said. There is a difference between balance and L2P. So if u are willing to trade claws for dark deal then its a L2P issue.

leepalmer95

MakoFore wrote: »

leave it alone. all classes have means of disengaging from combat, refiling their resources,

templars can drain bodies, night blades can go freaking invisible, dos have igneous, stam sorcs have of all the classes- the least melee class skills- at least- we have dark deal. believe me- id trade dark deal for claws, or lashes - but as it is- its all we ve got.

leave it alone.

and to the ddevelopers- leet hope they ve learned not to be as impressionable and easily bent as in the past. there is a difference between a balance issue and a learn to play issue.

if there is one skill that allows sorcs to shine it isn't dark deal- its crit surge. look at the vma leaderboard s - there are 100 above 50k for sorc- and barely 30 even finishing for every other class!

the reason? crit surge. not having to worry about healing is making the class very very strong in solo content. not that i mind. but thats the op skill not dark deal .

Not sure how disengaging from combat is relevant to dark deal. But the refilling the resources lets go with that.

Nb siphoning attacks, 1k per light or heavy attack, needs 5 to actually land to get the same return as 1 dark deal. Also must actually be in combat and not self cast like dark deal. Dark deal is far better.

Templar can train bodies yes... they actually need to kill someone first and even then it's still less resources than dark deal. So a 1s cast time ability that gives more or to actually kill someone first? Again dark deal wins.

Dk's helping hands, 5% per cast. Needs roughly 2-3 casts of a skill to get the same return as dark deal. 2-3 casts means 2-3x more magicka to get the same as 1 dark deal. Again dark deal is just better.

Not sure how cloak is relevant so a discussion about a sustain skill, neither is claw or whip?.

Where are you even going with this? Surge is sorc's answer to not having mending.

Shad0wfire99

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

i swear anytime i see op on forum its related to a nerf or theyre protesting some change because it will ruin how they play.
at this point, when i see that name, i grab popcorn.

Let me get some popcorn.

starkerealm

Brrrofski wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

Now Im curious what @FENGRUSH thinks about this debacle.

My guess is after 2 years of it being probably the weakest class, he, like some of us others that played it for a while are enjoying it being strong (even if a bit too strong) for a few months

*Snorts*

Sorcs have been hilariously powerful from time to time.

xRIVALENx

Why only Dark Deal? Seems a little one sided considering the other morph restores the equivalent in magicka.

Why don't we just remove all skills and fight naked, you would get your perfect balance that you always wanted

Shad0wfire99

I'll say this again: Of all the skills, abilities, or sets that need to be reworked/balanced, Dark Deal probably isn't even in the top 50.

Alcast

Skills like Dark Deal and Siphoning attacks make resource management just disappear. EVEN MORE so on Azura star as those skills do not get any penalty whatsoever.

Why bother investing into recovery if Darkdeal gives yo 5k stam AND 8k healing ticks. At this point it is even better to use a magicka pot so you can use more darkdeals instead of a stamina pot

Neophyte

Every class is strong if you know how to play it well. I'm presuming you got t-bagged on this occasion by a Stam sorc ?

Enslaved

xRIVALENx wrote: »

Why only Dark Deal? Seems a little one sided considering the other morph restores the equivalent in magicka.

Why don't we just remove all skills and fight naked, you would get your perfect balance that you always wanted

I guess Khajiit would be OP then, with carnage passive. And then someone would make tread "nerf Khajiit"

Phinix1

leepalmer95 wrote: »

That skill is just so stupid.

The class has no burst. Avoid comparing the resource management game of DoT specs with classes based on burst.

EDIT: And before you say it no, proc sets don't count, because ALL classes can use Alchemist + Kena + whatever to amplify burst. But burst classes can get that to stupid high numbers. If anything needs a nerf it is the ridiculous proc/burst meta ZOS has been pushing for 3 patches.

What happened to "increased the average TTK to provide more satisfying combat" from 1.5?

Proc sets should have a separate PVE/PVP effect, like other games, instead of wrecking PVE for the sake of PVP balance or vice versa.

ObsidianMichi

xRIVALENx wrote: »

Why only Dark Deal? Seems a little one sided considering the other morph restores the equivalent in magicka.

Why don't we just remove all skills and fight naked, you would get your perfect balance that you always wanted

Oh come on, you know he'd just find some new fisticuffs exploit to complain about.

"Dodgerolling OP. I can't hit them because they get away! When will the Devs address this!!!"

starkerealm

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So basically your defending the fact a class can put on ANY 5x heavy set and then ignore the sustain aspect of the game. No other class can do this.

Every class has at least one, "screw sustain, I have other interests," option. At least. They don't all look the same, but they're there.

All of them are situational. That includes Dark Exchange/Dark Deal. Exchange and Deal are actually the riskiest ones, because of the cast timers. Nightblade's are the fiddliest, and require that you keep laying on the pressure. Templars are dependent on their environment. Dragon Knights are dependent on people actually showing up and thumping on them or on lowering their guard for a few seconds.

That's it. Sustain broken.

And of course, anyone can go in heavy armor. That's the tradeoff. You're losing out on damage for your preferred approach, in favor of being able to soak off more damage, and getting resources back. It's an intentional element of the game's design. Which is why every class has an option.

Edziu

starkerealm wrote: »

And of course, anyone can go in heavy armor. That's the tradeoff. You're losing out on damage for your preferred approach, in favor of being able to soak off more damage, and getting resources back. It's an intentional element of the game's design. Which is why every class has an option.

until proc sets are in state as for now, still not nerfed you dont losing any burst damage wearing 5+ heavy armor parts + sustain by constitution passive especjally wearking black rose + to this are going skills like dark deal, dk passive which returnik all your stats by used ultimate and depending on cost this ult, nb sipho attacks which you need to keep atleast spam light attacks to get benefit from this wchich isnt to easy and able to nonstop spam light attacks

DRXHarbinger

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Lol its a 2.5k heal in pvp....really? You're crying over that. Even dragon blood gives more of a heal. Maybe stop standing around spamming bow attacks hoping it'll work. Keep on them with crushing shock and they'll never get to use it. Stam users should be in thier face anyway and just bash.

Let me guess the real issue is you're scared of hurricane. Maybe nerf that as well while we're at it.

No it's a 5k heal in pvp which you would know if you actually used it instead of jumping in on a discussion on a skill you don't seem to know the facts about.

starkerealm wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

...or you could just bash them while they're channeling... or use Venom Arrow. Just a thought.

Assuming they don't shuffle dodge the bash.

So their soaking the damage to trigger constitution, but then shuffling to avoid the interrupt. Because, that's how random chance works.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Or your actually next to them to bash in the first place. Or your not a magicka build and can't afford to spam bashes while they break free and continue spamming dark deal.

Okay, let's see if I follow this theory of yours.

You're fighting a sorc in heavy armor. They use dark deal (1), they use shuffle (2), they use bolt escape (3). So that's half their bar.

When hurt they cast Dark Deal, which costs 1/3 of their magicka pool. Then, when you try to interrupt it, because it has a full second casting time... they dodge it. But, they've been taking hits to refill their pools with the Constitution passive. So, they Dark Deal repeatedly, then get bored of you, and bolt escape away, so they can dark deal again. Except, Bolt Escape costs ~1/3 of their magicka pool, then Dark Deal costs the second 1/3. But, they can't do that, because they were spamming dark deal first. And you have absolutely no way to deal with someone at range?

But, it's all for naught because they can regenerate 12% of their magicka once every 4 seconds if they take damage, because of heavy armor. Which they won't, because of shuffle. But, they're doing it anyway, because they prayed to RNGesus this morning.

As I recall, you're a sorc. If that's true, I can think of a couple methods to play complete havoc with them. Negate Magic, Shattering Prison, hell, Rune Cage, which is stupidly cheap as I recall. You have tools to deal with them.

To say nothing of the simplest solution which is just to burn them down faster than they can respond.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Or hope your on your bow bar or use a bow and hope your arrow actually hits before the dark deal finishes because it's very fast.

I've spammed crushing at dark dealing sorc's and even then that doesn't interrupt a lot of the time.

That's because, near as I can tell, you still haven't picked a focus. You can kill people through direct damage, or you can burn their resources first. If you want to do the latter, then Crushing is not a fantastic way to go. If you're wanting to do the former... it's iffy.

Or hell, maybe they're just, "PC transfers with thousands of CP." That was your old excuse.

In case this detail escaped you, you're not playing against NPCs in Cyrodiil. Those are living people. They've looked at the meta for the game, and adapted. Now, it's your turn. Adapt... or come on to the forums and claim that life is unfair.

I love all these numbers are scenerio you though't off. Such as weird scenario you though't of.

So basically your defending the fact a class can put on ANY 5x heavy set and then ignore the sustain aspect of the game. No other class can do this. Everyone else gives up gear or glyph's for sustain but not stam sorc. Instead of dark deal HELPING with sustain dark is ALL the sustain they need.

Not evenone spam's bolt escape all the time time. It's not hard to deal deal when your running at 40% movement speed which is more than sprinting.

As you recall i'm a sorc despite my signature stating i play every class both magicka and stamina?

Or yeah that PC transfer thread from how long ago? Back when there wasn't a cap on cp. Back when the average console cp was like 100 and yes there was pc transfers with cp over 1000 because the usual emp in the main campaign was a pv transfer and yes he did send my a s/s of his cp which was 1100 while i was at 180~.

TL;DR your saying it's ok for a class to throw on 5 heavy, heavy is mean't to have the worst sustain out of all the armor types and then spec everything else into pure dmg. In that case why not make it fair for all classes let every class spec into heavy and use 0 sustain sets at all.

My magplar would appreciate the extra 1k+ spell dmg amd my dk would love to be able to go full heavy and go 2x skoria/ rattlecage/ burning spell weave. But no because sustain is an actual thing for every other class.

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

i swear anytime i see op on forum its related to a nerf or theyre protesting some change because it will ruin how they play.
at this point, when i see that name, i grab popcorn.

Well someone has to actually care about balance. Everything seems to get ignored and left broken or most people only bother posting if it's a nerf to their class.

This forum is basically useless too many bias forum warriors or people posting without actually knowing that they're talking about.

It's a 5k tooltip.....unless it crits and you're wearing Tbs and on using something that gives major mending you aren't getting a 5k heal in pvp with it.

Never has this skill had a 10k tooltip.

Damn stop raging bro. You mad.

Isellskooma

Alcast wrote: »

Skills like Dark Deal and Siphoning attacks make resource management just disappear. EVEN MORE so on Azura star as those skills do not get any penalty whatsoever.

Why bother investing into recovery if Darkdeal gives yo 5k stam AND 8k healing ticks. At this point it is even better to use a magicka pot so you can use more darkdeals instead of a stamina pot

That's what I do, sustain on a Stam sorc is stupid easy.

Joy_Division

That it is a channel that somehow does not snare the user is beyond ridiculous.

Cherryblossom

leepalmer95 wrote: »

That skill is just so stupid. The skill literally makes all stam sorc ignore the sustain aspect of the game.

Because 5k heal and 5k stamina per cast is so 'balanced'.

It's the only channel type skill in the game they doesn't have the slow when casting it.

Reduce the stamina return by 25% and the heal by half. 5k heal per cast? Nah, the stupid amount of stamina it returns is already strong enough. If it has to have a heal make it small and a secondary effect and not a capable main heal for sorc's they have surge, vigor and rally available anyway.

Add the snare when cast like every other channel has in the game so people actually have a chance to interrupt it despite the fact it casts too annoyingly quick oh and they can shuffle dodge your interrupt. Because allowing RNG to stop the rewarding of good game play mechanics is such good game design. People actually waste stam to bash things only for them to be dodged, the skill not interrupted and the basher charged stamina.

If a dark deal is bashed then the magicka should be taken away and not returned. Seem stupid that someone bashes them and the sorc can just break free and go right back too spamming dark deal.


Maybe with these changes stam sorc will finally remember that building for sustain is an actual thing in the game and not just throw on 5 heavy and infinitely sustain with the best sustain the game. Because overbuff dark deal got is just stupid.

Imagine if a mag dk could throw on 5 heavy and then spec into 100% full dmg, the rage of people would be amazing it would be nerfed in the week. Not sure why stam sorc hasn't been nerfed yet likely because all the bad meta kids who google 'Most OP build in X patch' every time because they need all the broken advantages they can get to try and be relevant in pvp all rerolled one and haven't come off it since and forum warrior defend it.



Honestly some of the balancing changes in this game, do they even test them?

Because Stam Sorcs are top in Duels 1v1?

As this is not actually the case, your argument fails. Have a nice day.

Isellskooma

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

At least make it so when Dark Deal is interrupted the cost of attempting to cast Dark Deal is used. Its stupid how i can interrupt a stam sorc consistently and they just wait till they have immunity to spam cast it.


This is why Black Rose and Constitution in general are an issue. This is why Red Guards are an issue. You don't need to build for sustain to have immense sustain. You just stack damage upon damage with maximum stamina and be rewarded sustain. At least on my Imperial in Medium i have to sacrifice for regen using regen drinks.

This game is far from balanced. If you play a stamina redguard your just playing easy mode at this point. Bonus points if you use Black Rose on a DK or Sorc.

I really hope the meta completely changes next patch. Im tired of this whole more damage=better heals game we are playing. How about give better heals to those with more sustain. Give those max stat users some drawbacks.

Redgaurd is so stupid, I remember I had a 2h/bow dk medium that was a wood elf and I just couldn't sustain. Race change came out I made it a redgaurd and my sustain issues were gone and have more damage. It shouldn't have sustain with dmg...

TARAFRAKA

leepalmer95 wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

i swear anytime i see op on forum its related to a nerf or theyre protesting some change because it will ruin how they play.
at this point, when i see that name, i grab popcorn.

My significant other rarely posts on the forums at all, and she knows him by name.

first off, that is hilarious.
second, just gonna leave this gem here from the LAST time OP QQd about this just 2 weeks ago.

Wrobel wrote: »
Cast time abilities add a risk/reward mechanic that makes combat more varied and interesting. They are harder to fire off, but the payoff should make the cast time worthwhile. Some examples of abilities we feel are worth the risk are Dark Flare and Radiant Destruction. These abilities have counter play, but feel extremely powerful when executed without interruption. Finding this balance point is challenging, but it’s something we’re pursuing in an effort to make the gameplay more varied and fun.
We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome since it’s difficult to do. Our first cut at this was to double the healing it provided, a substantial improvement but not enough. For Dark Brotherhood launch we’re also significantly improving the number of resources returned. We aren’t 100% against making this ability instant cast, but we’d like to further investigate the cast time option first. We think different classes should have different mechanics for resource restoration.
End Quote
Ill direct you to the last line of that quote. Yes, Wrobel, lead combat designer says its ok for dif classes to have dif sustain restoration ie. wearing 5x heavy and using DD for resources is ONLY viable on a Stamsorc. Its unique, not OP.
TLDR
Git Gud OP

Wrobel is also the one responsible for the current state of PVP. So i guess u like what u see in cyro right? Everything working as intended

PVP has more issues than I can count. DD is NOT one of them. In this rare instance, Wrobel was right. As hard as that is for one to admit.

Thanks for spending time to go through my posts all the way back before i realised how broken stam sorc is.

Again do you play stam sorc? Or is all your points based on no actual experience with the class?]]

How can you actually sit there and defend it. What other sustain skill even comes close? What other classes can throw 5x any heavy armor on and then go full damage?

Please since when is this an acceptable part of the game?

Instead of quoting useless quotes give me a reason why it's fine? What part is balanced? Or are you just gonna continue where you started with a snarky comment trying to farm posts?

Aw I knew we'd get here. As I said you have a pattern. You call for a nerf, then when people disagree with you the next step is to question their credibility and experience with the class in question.
I have every class and role in game with no particular main. So I know exactly what I'm talking about.
For your approval kind sir,



Now as has been stated before, it DOES NOT MATTER that no other class sustain skill comes close. The classes are NOT the same, all have differing strengths and weaknesses. That is how you choose which class to run, based off your playstyle.
You can not simply say, well DD is better than repentance and siphon strikes so it is OP. You MUST look at the entire toolkit of the entire class in the hands of a TYPICAL player, not your @FENGRUSH or @Sypher. Players like that will make any skill or set look OP af.
I have heard your complaints loud and clear, and a majority of it boils down to proc sets+HA+shuffle+DD+Black Rose are OP in the hands of the RIGHT PLAYER.
Does not mean DD is OP in and of itself. It is all of those things combined that make it seem OP, like a recipe for disaster. So ask for balance in the right area, kind sir.
You are the perfect example of the medical students I work with who are so busy trying to treat their patients nausea that they dont notice the patient is also freaking PREGNANT.
LOOK FOR THE DISEASE THAT CAUSES THIS, NOT THE SYMPTOMS OF IT.
DD is a symptom that is making the disease more obvious, Black Rose/HA/CP/Proc sets are the disease.
This is what we medical professionals call critical thinking. It is a VITAL skill in any place you may find yourself in life.

Oh, and before you blow all this off by saying I am defending the skill because I am biased towards stamsorc because thats all I can play, I direct you to my final exhibits.
*Please kindly note, every single one of them except my healer DOES NOT SPEC FOR ANY SUSTAIN WHATSOEVER. Why? Because every class has a unique way to regen resources.
Templar

Nightblade

Dragonknight


The defense rests, your Honor.

Brrrofski

starkerealm wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

Now Im curious what @FENGRUSH thinks about this debacle.

My guess is after 2 years of it being probably the weakest class, he, like some of us others that played it for a while are enjoying it being strong (even if a bit too strong) for a few months

*Snorts*

Sorcs have been hilariously powerful from time to time.

Magica, yeh. STAM sorc (which this thread is on about) were incredibly weak before 1T. No class passives helped them and we all used boundless storm, the magica morph of hurricane (it was crappy thundering presence back then).

So not sure what you're snorting at.

idk

@leepalmer95

Umm. They are limited by their magika regen. That is the balancing and it certainly works.

Tell me what class you play and I will let you know what will be nerfed for you to compensate.

Enslaved

So sDK have a way to sustain itself with igneous shield. It also provides minor shield and major mending.
NB can use siphoning attacks. sTemp have repentance. So jeah, let's just scr*w sSorc. Remove dark deal, self sustain should be forbidden for that class.

idk

Enslaved wrote: »

So sDK have a way to sustain itself with igneous shield. It also provides minor shield and major mending.
NB can use siphoning attacks. sTemp have repentance. So jeah, let's just scr*w sSorc. Remove dark deal, self sustain should be forbidden for that class.

You forgot the huge heal and restored stats the DK gets when dropping an ult.

Bashev

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

So sDK have a way to sustain itself with igneous shield. It also provides minor shield and major mending.
NB can use siphoning attacks. sTemp have repentance. So jeah, let's just scr*w sSorc. Remove dark deal, self sustain should be forbidden for that class.

You forgot the huge heal and restored stats the DK gets when dropping an ult.

What is wrong with you? It is 2016 almost 2017 and the update is 2.6. For 200 ultimate you restore 35% from your resources. The heal is reduced by battle spirit. So you receive 18% from your max health.

Takes-No-Prisoner

This is the second thread you made on this OP, sorry but I need to call you out on this one. You claimed in both threads said skill needs to be nerfed.

However, you seem to not understand that if you take away this skill, StamSorc still needs help accessing good resource regeneration natively from their class skill trees.

If you get your wish and the skill gets nerfed, now you need to tell everyone here how you would give this class the tools they need for helping to sustain their resources. Because outside of Unholy Knowledge and being forced to slot an Daedric ability to access Daedric Protection, it'll be rough to gear up a StamSorc.

You cannot scream 'take away' without 'giving' this class something in exchange. This is how imbalance gets started.

MaxwellC

Lol people still think stam DK is strong, let me say something real quick.
How are we strong? Do we DoT you down in PvP because last time I check DoTs are one rally vigor combo away from being ignored, one shield away from laughing, and one purge away from slapping whoever is applying said DoTs in the face.

Wait let me guess, it's because our ultimate regen... oh wait we lost that a while ago... hmm oh I know it's helping hands that gives 5% of your max stam... oh wait never mind because with that logic I'd need 50k stamina in order to get 2.5k stamina back from a skill that is our only spammable (igneous shield) and it costs around 4k magicka.

We got some good healing received passives but that doesn't keep you alive mate, we're probably the weakest class unless we run heavy armor with no sustain; Then we're the weakest/'tankiest' class with still no sustain. Yet again I find it we're the class built around a sustain concept yet we do not have the best sustain because of well... logic.

Edziu

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Lol people still think stam DK is strong, let me say something real quick.
How are we strong? Do we DoT you down in PvP because last time I check DoTs are one rally vigor combo away from being ignored, one shield away from laughing, and one purge away from slapping whoever is applying said DoTs in the face.

Wait let me guess, it's because our ultimate regen... oh wait we lost that a while ago... hmm oh I know it's helping hands that gives 5% of your max stam... oh wait never mind because with that logic I'd need 50k stamina in order to get 2.5k stamina back from a skill that is our only spammable (igneous shield) and it costs around 4k magicka.

We got some good healing received passives but that doesn't keep you alive mate, we're probably the weakest class unless we run heavy armor with no sustain; Then we're the weakest/'tankiest' class with still no sustain. Yet again I find it we're the class built around a sustain concept yet we do not have the best sustain because of well... logic.

problem with stam dk is mainly because of proc sets combined to black rose and mostly perm block and just finishing others by thos eproc sets while being a tank

Sugaroverdose

Brrrofski wrote: »

As someone who's played stam sorc since IC, I couldn't believe how strong it was when I took it into PvP for the first time since the buffs. Dark deal is too strong. I don't think it needs a huge nerf though. It is bashable after all. Magica sorcs always interrupt it for instance. Just don't ruin it zos.

Yeah "it's bashable" the same way as RD, but if RD guy need to hide behind others, sorc can just CC break, enable sprint and spam this sh*t for hours, i've even run with them sprinting and spamming deep breath - it doesn't f work.

Every bashable ability must have n^2 colldown and should not refund spent resources after interruption to make interruption actually cost something.

PS: So much broken things and zos don't give a f