Miat's PVP Alerts Addon

Mako1132

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

is this thread dead yet?

looks a bit familiar with the "cheating" thread. just another black hole where all the trash about something will disappear and the other threads stay "clean"?

Anyone here who wants to bet if there will be an additional ZOS answer?

P.S: Did any of you test if the addon still works on PTS?

It does.

Yiko

NedicWildling wrote: »

Miat's logic... 10/10 would code again.

"What's the point of being a ganker if people don't burst someone down?"

I don't know, maybe opening on someone at your own discretion & presumed advantage, rather than an insta-kill via stealth mechanics (%dmg modifiers + crit + stun)?

That should be the end of the argument. Just because you're a ganker and see someone with < 22k health, it doesn't mean you should win instantly if they don't detect you. Something is overtuned there. Like Miat said, there's really no meaningful counterplay.

Subversus

Yiko wrote: »

NedicWildling wrote: »

Miat's logic... 10/10 would code again.

"What's the point of being a ganker if people don't burst someone down?"

I don't know, maybe opening on someone at your own discretion & presumed advantage, rather than an insta-kill via stealth mechanics (%dmg modifiers + crit + stun)?

That should be the end of the argument. Just because you're a ganker and see someone with < 22k health, it doesn't mean you should win instantly if they don't detect you. Something is overtuned there. Like Miat said, there's really no meaningful counterplay.

What's the meaningful counterplay to getting oneshotted by tremorscale/viper/widowmaker builds? Is he going to make an addon for that as well? That's a really terrible argument.

Yiko

Subversus wrote: »

What's the meaningful counterplay to getting oneshotted by tremorscale/viper/widowmaker builds? Is he going to make an addon for that as well? That's a really terrible argument.

There isn't, and that's why it's being nerfed, though not as nerfed as I would have liked.

Thx, come again. Really ironic that you call my argument terrible lol

Subversus

Yiko wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

What's the meaningful counterplay to getting oneshotted by tremorscale/viper/widowmaker builds? Is he going to make an addon for that as well? That's a really terrible argument.

There isn't, and that's why it's being nerfed, though not as nerfed as I would have liked.

Thx, come again. Really ironic that you call my argument terrible lol

So you counterargument with the 'proc set nerf' thing? Cool, when is the addon being nerfed? Ironic indeed, love.

Thelon

Yiko

Subversus wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

What's the meaningful counterplay to getting oneshotted by tremorscale/viper/widowmaker builds? Is he going to make an addon for that as well? That's a really terrible argument.

There isn't, and that's why it's being nerfed, though not as nerfed as I would have liked.

Thx, come again. Really ironic that you call my argument terrible lol

So you counterargument with the 'proc set nerf' thing? Cool, when is the addon being nerfed? Ironic indeed, love.

Proc stacking and insta-kills from stealth don't have much meaningful counterplay. If we can't agree there, we're not going to get very far.

Procs have been acknowledged as a problem by ZOS, and they are implementing changes in the upcoming patches to address this. How well that issue is being handled remains to be seen.
Stealth mechanics (auto crit, stun, %dmg modifier) have NOT been acknowledged by ZOS as a problem AFAIK, but many members from the community (very obviously) see it as a problem. The issue that people have with these mechanics is exacerbated by proc sets.

Your argument is essentially, "Stealth is fine. Just look at proc sets, there's not much counterplay there either," or
"Stealth is fine because proc stacking is also horribly imbalanced." If that isn't it, I actually don't understand what your point was.

My argument is that BOTH should have more meaningful counterplay.

I'm not saying that the addon is okay to use or isn't okay to use. I didn't even reference the addon, so I'm not sure why you keep referencing it as if I had. I'm talking about balancing this game. The way you balance a game fundamentally is not about neglecting counterplay.

If you REALLY think it's a terrible argument that procs and stealth insta-kills need more meaningful counterplay, then I have no idea what to tell you. You're probably someone who relies on one, or the other, or both.

Tell me specifically what is terrible about the argument.

krim

Bunch of cry babies and sore losers. QQ you got killed by a ganker. Get gud. I dont know how to say it nicely. Oh I know, you can blame 1.6.

pcar944

krim wrote: »

Bunch of cry babies and sore losers. QQ you got killed by a ganker. Get gud. I dont know how to say it nicely. Oh I know, you can blame 1.6.

don't have a problem getting ganked

getting ganked by 3-4 people at the same time? there is no counter play

and Miat's addon is borderline cheating and should be removed

and anyone that's using it needs to l2p

krim

pcar944 wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Bunch of cry babies and sore losers. QQ you got killed by a ganker. Get gud. I dont know how to say it nicely. Oh I know, you can blame 1.6.

don't have a problem getting ganked

getting ganked by 3-4 people at the same time? there is no counter play

and Miat's addon is borderline cheating and should be removed

and anyone that's using it needs to l2p

Are you saying there needs to be a physical counter to being ganked simultaneously by 3-4 people?

Kaghei

krim wrote: »

pcar944 wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Bunch of cry babies and sore losers. QQ you got killed by a ganker. Get gud. I dont know how to say it nicely. Oh I know, you can blame 1.6.

don't have a problem getting ganked

getting ganked by 3-4 people at the same time? there is no counter play

and Miat's addon is borderline cheating and should be removed

and anyone that's using it needs to l2p

Are you saying there needs to be a physical counter to being ganked simultaneously by 3-4 people?

Whats the counter player to being zerged

Being ganked by 3-4 people at the same time is pretty much the same as being killed in the open by 10 players solo. People liked the blame the gankers but its the fact you were outnumbered and theres never gonna be a counter to that other than get good. Obviously there are exceptions where 1 player can gank you from 100-0 in a combo.

DisgracefulMind

As I said previously, I tried the add-on, I like the total kill numbers counted in a battle, I think that part is kinda neat. But I've completely turned the add-on off at this point, because it really doesn't change much for me. If I'm going to get ganked, I'm still going to get ganked, it's the way of the game. I still know how to from experience listen for a gank and recover from an attempted gank too. It's really nothing new x:

What's REALLY bothersome is that now that this addon is around, any nightblade who fails to gank somebody rages at the person they failed to kill and calls them cheaters, etc etc lol. The rage tells from failed ganks are getting kind of crazy
Today I was called some pretty awful names with accusations of cheating with an addon because a nightblade failed a gank on me (while I had full shields up on my sorc), and I turned around and killed him. :c
Calm down nightblades, some of you are just REALLY bad gankers, and that's okay, but stop thinking we're all using an addon and that the only reason why you're an awful ganker is because of miat's addon. You're just bad. ):

Whether people agree with the gameplay mechanics behind stealth damage/ganking, the fact is that it is a valid play style at this point in time in the game, and really no add-on should have the right to take that away. Just my opinion on the matter. I think the addon is a bit cheap. Yes, I did play around with it to see what it was all about, and, no, I don't really see a reason to use it /:

Enslaved

MrSinister213 wrote: »

The only people against this addon are Xv1ers like OP. Just stay on crown my zerg friends and everything will be alright for you. Great work Miat, this has made PvP enjoyable for us small scale players while we wait for CU.

>zerg
>small scale

Pick one.

Vurian97

People who use the add-on generally are getting carried by it. The add-on doesn't effect gameplay in Trueflame as far as I can see, compared to Azura's Star or Blackwater Blade where zerging isn't the meta quite yet. If your group tries to stealth up to something in Azura's Star, you're almost guaranteed to be found out before even popping your head out of stealth due to the add-on. That's broken. That's making those with the add-on overpowered. That makes the add-on a meta for people who want to run solo defenses. They can sit around and wait for the add-on to sound the alarms of enemies nearby and then if there are to many, quickly call in zone chat, or enjoy the AP gains solo.

My guild has wiped multiple times due to people using this add-on on multiple occassions, not frequent enough for me to quit or get the add-on to counter-use (I will never, because I consider it a cheat), but it has happened enough that it does get frustrating. Still doesn't quite beat the amount of Stream-Snipe Wipes I've experienced though.

Alishka_Gunter

So you are saying that as a guild, you are unable to win a fight without engaging the enemy from stealth and that your losses are due to Miats addon? Or that you were stream sniped? If that were the case, why does TM, DR, Fengrush, Krotha or any of the other major players on Azuras not have this issue? I've used Miats and I have zero issue with knowing whose in the area. The detection of attacks from stealth are complete and utter garbage and shouldn't be apart of it as that does provide an unfair advantage. Know that an enemy force is in the area? Cmon now. Second to that, if you understood how it worked, you'd know that you can stealth into the area without being detected. Just don't cast a spell or buff until you are ready to engage the enemy. Zos has already explained how the addon works and how to avoid detection by it.

Kutsuu

Yiko wrote: »

NedicWildling wrote: »

Miat's logic... 10/10 would code again.

"What's the point of being a ganker if people don't burst someone down?"

I don't know, maybe opening on someone at your own discretion & presumed advantage, rather than an insta-kill via stealth mechanics (%dmg modifiers + crit + stun)?

That should be the end of the argument. Just because you're a ganker and see someone with < 22k health, it doesn't mean you should win instantly if they don't detect you. Something is overtuned there. Like Miat said, there's really no meaningful counterplay.

That's one of the problems with this game. In many other games, the gank advantage of taking a chunk at the start of the fight is very effective because healing on non-healer builds is low, on long cooldowns, or nonexistent. In ESO, opening with a 50% health advantage means literally nothing because every competent PVP build can heal themselves from execute range to full health within a few seconds. You have to burst their health to zero before they can burst their health to full, or you simply fail to gank at all. There is zero advantage at the point that the enemy has recovered their health and is aware of your presence.

IMO this dynamic is part of the reason for all the 1-shot boss mechanics in the PVE side of this game. The developers have found that mechanics which don't kill you instantly are ineffective in creating difficulty because that player will return to 100% life within the blink of an eye.

What's the solution? I don't think there is one at this stage of the game. It's too late to make huge game altering changes to the combat system. If they reduce burst damage to the point that people can't be killed in one CC or during a gank by a single player, you'll simply have a dynamic where nobody dies unless outnumbered or they make a series of major mistakes. That game would be even less enjoyable IMO.

Yiko

Kutsuu wrote: »

That's one of the problems with this game. In many other games, the gank advantage of taking a chunk at the start of the fight is very effective because healing on non-healer builds is low, on long cooldowns, or nonexistent. In ESO, opening with a 50% health advantage means literally nothing because every competent PVP build can heal themselves from execute range to full health within a few seconds. You have to burst their health to zero before they can burst their health to full, or you simply fail to gank at all. There is zero advantage at the point that the enemy has recovered their health and is aware of your presence.

IMO this dynamic is part of the reason for all the 1-shot boss mechanics in the PVE side of this game. The developers have found that mechanics which don't kill you instantly are ineffective in creating difficulty because that player will return to 100% life within the blink of an eye.

What's the solution? I don't think there is one at this stage of the game. It's too late to make huge game altering changes to the combat system. If they reduce burst damage to the point that people can't be killed in one CC or during a gank by a single player, you'll simply have a dynamic where nobody dies unless outnumbered or they make a series of major mistakes. That game would be even less enjoyable IMO.

Yeah, that's part of the other side of the argument. I definitely agree with you on that point. This game is incredibly forgiving if you aren't bursted down. If ganking is nerfed, other builds and playstyles could be made less forgiving, but that would require an overhaul - something that I'm certain ZOS will not do.
In PVP, there are quite a few ways to 100-0 someone in the span of 1-3 seconds, some with more counterplay than others. It's not limited to ganking.
The problem is the stealth and the lack of meaningful counterplay to it.
Why reward the guy who already opens at his presumed advantage with additional damage and utility mechanics? Would they not still have enough damage if built correctly to 100-0 someone even without the guaranteed crits, multipliers, and stun? Why is the ability to 100-0 a player in one second a prerequisite to being a ganker in this game? Is it not enough to prey on weaker/unsuspecting players from steallth where the eventual combat takes more than 1 second?
Heaven forbid Heavy Attack, Ambush, Soul Harvest from stealth (with or without procs) be made less effective.

All I'm saying is that fundamentally I would rather have more counterplay and upset gankers than lack of counterplay and upset non-gankers.

I'm fairly certain the good ones would still shine anyways.

Kartalin

I tried out the add on for one evening. After seeing it alert me that I was about to be sniped and subsequently holding block in time to stymie the attack, I could tell it was broken af. Immediately uninstalled it, don't want to be associated with it. As one of the, ahem, "videographers" for my guild, I also feel it would put us in a bad light if it was shown we used it.

The only thing we hope would come of this addon, and we've discussed this in TS, is that on your death recap maybe show the relative faction numbers around you.

KisoValley

Working fine imo. Delete stealth, that's what's broken.

Kutsuu

Yiko wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

That's one of the problems with this game. In many other games, the gank advantage of taking a chunk at the start of the fight is very effective because healing on non-healer builds is low, on long cooldowns, or nonexistent. In ESO, opening with a 50% health advantage means literally nothing because every competent PVP build can heal themselves from execute range to full health within a few seconds. You have to burst their health to zero before they can burst their health to full, or you simply fail to gank at all. There is zero advantage at the point that the enemy has recovered their health and is aware of your presence.

IMO this dynamic is part of the reason for all the 1-shot boss mechanics in the PVE side of this game. The developers have found that mechanics which don't kill you instantly are ineffective in creating difficulty because that player will return to 100% life within the blink of an eye.

What's the solution? I don't think there is one at this stage of the game. It's too late to make huge game altering changes to the combat system. If they reduce burst damage to the point that people can't be killed in one CC or during a gank by a single player, you'll simply have a dynamic where nobody dies unless outnumbered or they make a series of major mistakes. That game would be even less enjoyable IMO.

Yeah, that's part of the other side of the argument. I definitely agree with you on that point. This game is incredibly forgiving if you aren't bursted down. If ganking is nerfed, other builds and playstyles could be made less forgiving, but that would require an overhaul - something that I'm certain ZOS will not do.
In PVP, there are quite a few ways to 100-0 someone in the span of 1-3 seconds, some with more counterplay than others. It's not limited to ganking.
The problem is the stealth and the lack of meaningful counterplay to it.
Why reward the guy who already opens at his presumed advantage with additional damage and utility mechanics? Would they not still have enough damage if built correctly to 100-0 someone even without the guaranteed crits, multipliers, and stun? Why is the ability to 100-0 a player in one second a prerequisite to being a ganker in this game? Is it not enough to prey on weaker/unsuspecting players from steallth where the eventual combat takes more than 1 second?
Heaven forbid Heavy Attack, Ambush, Soul Harvest from stealth (with or without procs) be made less effective.

All I'm saying is that fundamentally I would rather have more counterplay and upset gankers than lack of counterplay and upset non-gankers.

I'm fairly certain the good ones would still shine anyways.

Well there kind of is counterplay to it, but it's more than just changing tactics on a glass cannon build with ~20k HP. I very rarely get successfully ganked on my magplar or stamsorc unless the gank happens when I'm already in a fight and my health bar isn't full.

Generally it requires one of three things, or a combination of them:

1. Enough HP/armor to not get 1-shotted. This usually means 26k+ health, 25k+ armor depending on the ganker. I don't really uses horses on my stamsorc and just run around fully buffed with 27k health, 27k armor on 1h/shield bar. A single full-on alchemist/viper heavy>ambush>incap opener usually brings me to ~40% life.
2. At least 23k HP, radiant magelight, and a decent reaction time. Radiant prevents the stealth attack from stunning you, but you still have to block or dodge the incap. You only have 1/2 a second to react and block or dodge. This is the strategy I use on my magplar, who double bars radiant magelight (thanks to rattlecage freeing up my degeneration skill slot). I run around on a 1h/shield bar and have my muscle memory trained to block and start casting HtD the moment I hear the twang of a bow.
3. Run around with a shield up, recasting it every 6s. Yeah I know this is a pain but preventing crits on the gank opener stop it dead most of the time. It's even better if you're a sorc with defensive rune, because you will be given time to CC break the stealth opener before they can CC break defensive rune and incap you.

Yeah I know this is a pain... but keeping in mind that the same exact factors above are what can protect you from the heavy attack > dawnbreaker burst from stacked proc set builds (aside from just magelight), it's generally worth it if you're going to run solo.

Yeah I know this forces people to run tanky builds or constantly recast shields. But personally I prefer to adapt over just banging my head on failure.

Yiko

Kutsuu wrote: »

Well there kind of is counterplay to it, but it's more than just changing tactics on a glass cannon build with ~20k HP. I very rarely get successfully ganked on my magplar or stamsorc unless the gank happens when I'm already in a fight and my health bar isn't full.

Generally it requires one of three things, or a combination of them:

1. Enough HP/armor to not get 1-shotted. This usually means 26k+ health, 25k+ armor depending on the ganker. I don't really uses horses on my stamsorc and just run around fully buffed with 27k health, 27k armor on 1h/shield bar. A single full-on alchemist/viper heavy>ambush>incap opener usually brings me to ~40% life.
2. At least 23k HP, radiant magelight, and a decent reaction time. Radiant prevents the stealth attack from stunning you, but you still have to block or dodge the incap. You only have 1/2 a second to react and block or dodge. This is the strategy I use on my magplar, who double bars radiant magelight (thanks to rattlecage freeing up my degeneration skill slot). I run around on a 1h/shield bar and have my muscle memory trained to block and start casting HtD the moment I hear the twang of a bow.
3. Run around with a shield up, recasting it every 6s. Yeah I know this is a pain but preventing crits on the gank opener stop it dead most of the time. It's even better if you're a sorc with defensive rune, because you will be given time to CC break the stealth opener before they can CC break defensive rune and incap you.

Yeah I know this is a pain... but keeping in mind that the same exact factors above are what can protect you from the heavy attack > dawnbreaker burst from stacked proc set builds (aside from just magelight), it's generally worth it if you're going to run solo.

Yeah I know this forces people to run tanky builds or constantly recast shields. But personally I prefer to adapt over just banging my head on failure.

Yeah, I definitely acknowledge that's a thing; I have personally changed my build to be tankier for this meta with numbers similar to yours, but that isn't meaningful counterplay IMO. Meaningful counterplay would be bashing a Dark Deal or something like that, an actual result of user input in combat in response to another user's input .. reflecting a frag, LOSing a jesus beam, blocking a Meteor, CC, etc. Need more definitions here like counter vs. counterplay for the sake of clarity.
When people say that ZOS is dumbing the game down and removing counterplay, they're citing things like Soul Assault being unbashable and uncloakable, unreflectable Meteors, and on the PTS CC immunity increasing from 5 seconds to 7 seconds.

By removing these stealth mechanics, players would have more of an opportunity for counterplay against stealth users.

Why is the damage modifier right where it's at? Why not increase it by 200%, and everyone can run 5k more health, because we should just adapt? I'm trying to understand the design behind this archaic stealth mechanic. Why would it be a bad idea to remove it in regards to PVP balance?

I do understand what you're saying about adapting, and I've personally done it to an extent. I'm just looking for a reason as to why stealth needs these additional mechanics. The advantage of stealth should be stealth itself. I fail to see why stealth users need guaranteed crit, damage modifiers, and a built-in stun.

Kutsuu

Yiko wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

Well there kind of is counterplay to it, but it's more than just changing tactics on a glass cannon build with ~20k HP. I very rarely get successfully ganked on my magplar or stamsorc unless the gank happens when I'm already in a fight and my health bar isn't full.

Generally it requires one of three things, or a combination of them:

1. Enough HP/armor to not get 1-shotted. This usually means 26k+ health, 25k+ armor depending on the ganker. I don't really uses horses on my stamsorc and just run around fully buffed with 27k health, 27k armor on 1h/shield bar. A single full-on alchemist/viper heavy>ambush>incap opener usually brings me to ~40% life.
2. At least 23k HP, radiant magelight, and a decent reaction time. Radiant prevents the stealth attack from stunning you, but you still have to block or dodge the incap. You only have 1/2 a second to react and block or dodge. This is the strategy I use on my magplar, who double bars radiant magelight (thanks to rattlecage freeing up my degeneration skill slot). I run around on a 1h/shield bar and have my muscle memory trained to block and start casting HtD the moment I hear the twang of a bow.
3. Run around with a shield up, recasting it every 6s. Yeah I know this is a pain but preventing crits on the gank opener stop it dead most of the time. It's even better if you're a sorc with defensive rune, because you will be given time to CC break the stealth opener before they can CC break defensive rune and incap you.

Yeah I know this is a pain... but keeping in mind that the same exact factors above are what can protect you from the heavy attack > dawnbreaker burst from stacked proc set builds (aside from just magelight), it's generally worth it if you're going to run solo.

Yeah I know this forces people to run tanky builds or constantly recast shields. But personally I prefer to adapt over just banging my head on failure.

Yeah, I definitely acknowledge that's a thing; I have personally changed my build to be tankier for this meta with numbers similar to yours, but that isn't meaningful counterplay IMO. Meaningful counterplay would be bashing a Dark Deal or something like that, an actual result of user input in combat in response to another user's input .. reflecting a frag, LOSing a jesus beam, blocking a Meteor, CC, etc. Need more definitions here like counter vs. counterplay for the sake of clarity.
When people say that ZOS is dumbing the game down and removing counterplay, they're citing things like Soul Assault being unbashable and uncloakable, unreflectable Meteors, and on the PTS CC immunity increasing from 5 seconds to 7 seconds.

By removing these stealth mechanics, players would have more of an opportunity for counterplay against stealth users.

Why is the damage modifier right where it's at? Why not increase it by 200%, and everyone can run 5k more health, because we should just adapt? I'm trying to understand the design behind this archaic stealth mechanic. Why would it be a bad idea to remove it in regards to PVP balance?

I do understand what you're saying about adapting, and I've personally done it to an extent. I'm just looking for a reason as to why stealth needs these additional mechanics. The advantage of stealth should be stealth itself. I fail to see why stealth users need guaranteed crit, damage modifiers, and a built-in stun.

We just go back to the same problem that I mentioned a few posts above. With the outrageous amount of healing any decent PVP build is going to have, any advantage that doesn't kill goes away within moments. You take these glass cannon ganker builds who tend to have <16k armor (when buffed), <20k health, and put them up against someone who has just instantly healed up from their ineffective burst combo and they are going to drop like a rock on the first burst attempt that lands on them. It just deletes this style of build from the game.

Maybe what they could do is completely remove the damage modifier from stealth attacks, but instead cause a 70-80% healing debuff that lasts for 5 seconds. That way counterplay is at least possible since you are not dying instantly, but you can't just instantly heal to full.

Again, my point is that stealth itself is not an advantage when someone can instantly heal to full the moment they break whatever CC you applied from stealth to start your assault. It's no different than starting a duel when one person or the other lands the first CC and the opposing player immediately heals to full after breaking it.

I hate the situation with heals using the same stat as damage and everyone having access to extremely powerful heals... you just end up with a game where you *must* have extreme levels of burst damage for people to actually die outside of the outnumbered and/or series of terrible mistakes situations.

Also, there is counterplay for both Meteor and Soul Assault. Soul Assault can be blocked, and AFAIK it can be cloaked after 2s into the channel but I haven't tried/bothered to test. Meteor can be blocked. While I loved it when I was using it to mess someone up, I don't really think it was a good thing to be able to cloak or reflect an ultimate.

Yiko

Kutsuu wrote: »

We just go back to the same problem that I mentioned a few posts above. With the outrageous amount of healing any decent PVP build is going to have, any advantage that doesn't kill goes away within moments. You take these glass cannon ganker builds who tend to have <16k armor (when buffed), <20k health, and put them up against someone who has just instantly healed up from their ineffective burst combo and they are going to drop like a rock on the first burst attempt that lands on them. It just deletes this style of build from the game.

Maybe what they could do is completely remove the damage modifier from stealth attacks, but instead cause a 70-80% healing debuff that lasts for 5 seconds. That way counterplay is at least possible since you are not dying instantly, but you can't just instantly heal to full.

Again, my point is that stealth itself is not an advantage when someone can instantly heal to full the moment they break whatever CC you applied from stealth to start your assault.

Yeah, but that's if you're operating under the premise that builds like that need to exist, builds that take minimal user input to kill unsuspecting players from invisibility within 1 second. I want to transition away from gank in ESO being synonymous with "1 second kill of a few simultaneous attacks" to more of a general playstyle of patiently waiting and strategically selecting targets while in stealth and outplaying after opening at your own discretion. Gankers don't want counterplay. I want counterplay. Why does a 1 second kill (due to stealth mechanics) HAVE to exist in ESO?

That's a creative idea that would certainly allow for more counterplay, though half of the gankers seem to open with Incap as part of their opening combo already, with some running Minor Defile poison on top of that.

I definitely don't agree. Stealth allows you to pick your fights generally speaking, which is an advantage, especially against unsuspecting people.

Kutsuu wrote: »

Also, there is counterplay for both Meteor and Soul Assault. Soul Assault can be blocked, and AFAIK it can be cloaked after 2s into the channel but I haven't tried/bothered to test. Meteor can be blocked. While I loved it when I was using it to mess someone up, I don't really think it was a good thing to be able to cloak or reflect an ultimate.

Yeah, when I said, "When people say that ZOS is dumbing the game down and removing counterplay, they're citing things like Soul Assault being unbashable and uncloakable, unreflectable Meteors.." it should be read as "removing [some] counterplay," and not "removing [all] counterplay." Obviously each has counterplay, no need to explain it. In the post you quoted, I even referenced blocking Meteor as a form of counterplay.

Like you said, a lot of this comes down to stats. The game has changed, and people are allowed to specialize in ways they never have been able to before. Damage is high, heals are high, and resources are high. Good players don't die to other players 1v1 unless it's a counter-matchup or a serious mistake. Stealth mechanics' effect has been severely exacerbated by proc sets and these gradual changes.

As I said before:
I'm just looking for a reason as to why stealth needs these additional mechanics. The advantage of stealth should be stealth itself. I fail to see why stealth users need guaranteed crit, damage modifiers, and a built-in stun.

Is your answer "because the playstyle wouldn't be possible without them?"

To which I ask again: Why does a 1 second kill playstyle(due to stealth mechanics) HAVE to exist in ESO? How is that healthy for the game? That's PRECISELY the reason for Miat's addon.

I don't want to hear, "Run more health." That avoids the issue in its entirety. We're talking game balance. If I get killed in 1 second to procs, I'm going to react the same way. Procs are overtuned, and the more potent they are, the less individual player actions matter. If I die in 1 second to stealth users WITHOUT proc stacking and WITHOUT the stealth mechanics, I do not actually mind, because I know the same would be possible outside of stealth. I will adjust my build. I just need to know why these stealth mechanics are necessary for someone who is engaging a battle at his discretion.

In my eyes, the best gankers are abusing an outdated mechanic that has scaled too well with item powercreep, CP, and player innovation.. and the worst gankers (actually the vast majority) are crutching on procs and said mechanic.

Dorrino

1. Oneshot procs line-ups HAVE a counterplay, albeit a rather non-reliable one. Yes, i mean blocking an insta attack:) It is a counterplay even though it usually requires outplaying your opponent by predicting the exact moment of his attack.

This is the reason i personally never complained in any manner about proc sets. Yes they can oneshot, but you can play around them.

Stealth ganks are a totally different thing because there's no way to predict the steath attack from your typical "let-me-sit-in-stealth-for-5min-then-oneshot" type of a ganker. Thus no counterplay.

2. As @Yiko mentioned, getting to 27k hp, having radiant on both bars etc etc is NOT a counterplay. It's a counter build. Currently it is impossible to get to 27k hp on 5/1/1 medium armor for stam nb, without severely gimping your overall battle effectiveness.

Therefore the proposed counter builds require not just to make adjustments to your build, but to play a totally different build. The answer to the question "How can i counter oneshot ganks from stealth, while playing with 5med and no s&b" is "You don't". This is how this addon came to be:)

I personally think that if current pvp game state abandons 2 types of armor out of 3 - there's an imbalance in the said game state and while we're waiting on ZOS's solution those who still prefer to play in medium/light have my addon as a band-aid to apply:)

3. @Yiko, i'm afraid the answer to your question as to why stealth has to include oneshots even though it already give huge advantage is simply that people like to have an 'edge' on other people. It makes them feel good about themselves (or at least better than before). Stealth in the current state is just an easy to use medium to 'git gud' for them. Read some guides, get some gear, practice for a week - and you're an assassin, a shadow silently moving around the battlefield, delivering death at his will. It's ESO's epitome of power. Ability to be a demigod, since being a god is too much work:)

At least that's my understanding. Cheers all.

Kutsuu

Yiko wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

We just go back to the same problem that I mentioned a few posts above. With the outrageous amount of healing any decent PVP build is going to have, any advantage that doesn't kill goes away within moments. You take these glass cannon ganker builds who tend to have <16k armor (when buffed), <20k health, and put them up against someone who has just instantly healed up from their ineffective burst combo and they are going to drop like a rock on the first burst attempt that lands on them. It just deletes this style of build from the game.

Maybe what they could do is completely remove the damage modifier from stealth attacks, but instead cause a 70-80% healing debuff that lasts for 5 seconds. That way counterplay is at least possible since you are not dying instantly, but you can't just instantly heal to full.

Again, my point is that stealth itself is not an advantage when someone can instantly heal to full the moment they break whatever CC you applied from stealth to start your assault.

Yeah, but that's if you're operating under the premise that builds like that need to exist, builds that take minimal user input to kill unsuspecting players from invisibility within 1 second. I want to transition away from gank in ESO being synonymous with "1 second kill of a few simultaneous attacks" to more of a general playstyle of patiently waiting and strategically selecting targets while in stealth and outplaying after opening at your own discretion. Gankers don't want counterplay. I want counterplay. Why does a 1 second kill (due to stealth mechanics) HAVE to exist in ESO?

That's a creative idea that would certainly allow for more counterplay, though half of the gankers seem to open with Incap as part of their opening combo already, with some running Minor Defile poison on top of that.

I definitely don't agree. Stealth allows you to pick your fights generally speaking, which is an advantage, especially against unsuspecting people.

Kutsuu wrote: »

Also, there is counterplay for both Meteor and Soul Assault. Soul Assault can be blocked, and AFAIK it can be cloaked after 2s into the channel but I haven't tried/bothered to test. Meteor can be blocked. While I loved it when I was using it to mess someone up, I don't really think it was a good thing to be able to cloak or reflect an ultimate.

Yeah, when I said, "When people say that ZOS is dumbing the game down and removing counterplay, they're citing things like Soul Assault being unbashable and uncloakable, unreflectable Meteors.." it should be read as "removing [some] counterplay," and not "removing [all] counterplay." Obviously each has counterplay, no need to explain it. In the post you quoted, I even referenced blocking Meteor as a form of counterplay.

Like you said, a lot of this comes down to stats. The game has changed, and people are allowed to specialize in ways they never have been able to before. Damage is high, heals are high, and resources are high. Good players don't die to other players 1v1 unless it's a counter-matchup or a serious mistake. Stealth mechanics' effect has been severely exacerbated by proc sets and these gradual changes.

As I said before:
I'm just looking for a reason as to why stealth needs these additional mechanics. The advantage of stealth should be stealth itself. I fail to see why stealth users need guaranteed crit, damage modifiers, and a built-in stun.

Is your answer "because the playstyle wouldn't be possible without them?"

To which I ask again: Why does a 1 second kill playstyle(due to stealth mechanics) HAVE to exist in ESO? How is that healthy for the game? That's PRECISELY the reason for Miat's addon.

I don't want to hear, "Run more health." That avoids the issue in its entirety. We're talking game balance. If I get killed in 1 second to procs, I'm going to react the same way. Procs are overtuned, and the more potent they are, the less individual player actions matter. If I die in 1 second to stealth users WITHOUT proc stacking and WITHOUT the stealth mechanics, I do not actually mind, because I know the same would be possible outside of stealth. I will adjust my build. I just need to know why these stealth mechanics are necessary for someone who is engaging a battle at his discretion.

In my eyes, the best gankers are abusing an outdated mechanic that has scaled too well with item powercreep, CP, and player innovation.. and the worst gankers (actually the vast majority) are crutching on procs and said mechanic.

I think the assassin play style which is usually characterized by being a no compromises glass cannon who is very bursty but also very fragile should be a viable build. I am not at all saying that it NEEDS to be a 1-shot kill. What I am saying is that due to this game's current mechanics, it has to be a 1-shot kill or else all advantage is lost the moment they CC break and hold down the block button or playing the dodge roll dance while healing to full. Recovery is just too easy in this game. There is very little counterplay to the actual recovery outside of emptying their health bar before they start recovering.

I'd be open to other options for sure.

Also, I don't know if you realize this, but there have been ways to kill players in under 1 second since beta throughout every single patch and moment of time until today. Don't act like this is some new mechanic.

Dorrino

While i'm still here.

Kutsuu wrote: »

I think the assassin play style which is usually characterized by being a no compromises glass cannon who is very bursty but also very fragile should be a viable build.

I think there's a misnomer here:) Your statement sounds like the build idea is to have high burst with a trade-off in a form of being easy to kill. But 'the scissor's are invisible'. You can't kill something that you can't see. This fact alone turns high burst/ low survivability "assassin" archetype into high burst/high survivability "Im-a-god" archetype.

I personally don't have problems with the first one, but i do find the latter one to be quite detrimental to the game, especially considering its ease to play.

Yuke

@Yiko

really strong contribution to the topic. I (and i think everyone in my guild) appreciate the effort.

Derra

Dorrino wrote: »

2. As @Yiko mentioned, getting to 27k hp, having radiant on both bars etc etc is NOT a counterplay. It's a counter build. Currently it is impossible to get to 27k hp on 5/1/1 medium armor for stam nb, without severely gimping your overall battle effectiveness.

Therefore the proposed counter builds require not just to make adjustments to your build, but to play a totally different build. The answer to the question "How can i counter oneshot ganks from stealth, while playing with 5med and no s&b" is "You don't". This is how this addon came to be:)

I think this statement can not be stressed enough and it´s the same for light armor.
To have the chance to counter ganking on medium and light armor builds you have to completely revamp your whole setup and become essentially ineffective at anything but surviving a gank.
Most likely your build afterwards will even fail to kill the ganker as the required sacrifices directly cut into combat effectiveness.

Derra

Kutsuu wrote: »

3. Run around with a shield up, recasting it every 6s. Yeah I know this is a pain but preventing crits on the gank opener stop it dead most of the time. It's even better if you're a sorc with defensive rune, because you will be given time to CC break the stealth opener before they can CC break defensive rune and incap you.

Proper gankers will use a cc immunity potion when attempting to attack a sorc with defensive rune. That skill is absolutely useless against a competent player.

Subversus

Yiko wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

What's the meaningful counterplay to getting oneshotted by tremorscale/viper/widowmaker builds? Is he going to make an addon for that as well? That's a really terrible argument.

There isn't, and that's why it's being nerfed, though not as nerfed as I would have liked.

Thx, come again. Really ironic that you call my argument terrible lol

So you counterargument with the 'proc set nerf' thing? Cool, when is the addon being nerfed? Ironic indeed, love.

Proc stacking and insta-kills from stealth don't have much meaningful counterplay. If we can't agree there, we're not going to get very far.

Procs have been acknowledged as a problem by ZOS, and they are implementing changes in the upcoming patches to address this. How well that issue is being handled remains to be seen.
Stealth mechanics (auto crit, stun, %dmg modifier) have NOT been acknowledged by ZOS as a problem AFAIK, but many members from the community (very obviously) see it as a problem. The issue that people have with these mechanics is exacerbated by proc sets.

Your argument is essentially, "Stealth is fine. Just look at proc sets, there's not much counterplay there either," or
"Stealth is fine because proc stacking is also horribly imbalanced." If that isn't it, I actually don't understand what your point was.

My argument is that BOTH should have more meaningful counterplay.

I'm not saying that the addon is okay to use or isn't okay to use. I didn't even reference the addon, so I'm not sure why you keep referencing it as if I had. I'm talking about balancing this game. The way you balance a game fundamentally is not about neglecting counterplay.

If you REALLY think it's a terrible argument that procs and stealth insta-kills need more meaningful counterplay, then I have no idea what to tell you. You're probably someone who relies on one, or the other, or both.

Tell me specifically what is terrible about the argument.

The gear I use on both my stamblade and my stam dk (which are the only chars I play) is seventh legion and spriggan, nice try though. I somehow agree with you on how stealth has no meaningful counterplay, though. However it should give you somewhat of an advantage, that should only be fair, even if that should only be a cc or a little extra damage on your first attack. The addon completely negates that.