Token System for VMA & VDSA

jakeedmundson

Yes

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lukums1 wrote: »

Go on my twitch stream and watch me obtain all weapons with sharpen and precise the RNG isn't that bad.

It's all stupid luck though.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You just explained why the RNG system is bad immediately after trying to say it wasn't... Mr. 700+ runs... btw, that number alone means its a bad system.

@jakeedmundson

I have stopped believing anyone that quotes that many runs. If it was Streak or SirAndy, I would prob believe it, otherwise, no way. Just for fun, these are both his quotes within the last 24 hours:

"Completed it 700+ times myself easily - 100 runs on twitch currently give or take.

In 100 runs - I got all sharpen weapons apart from lightning sharpen which came later...

I really don't believe you, and if you're telling the absolute truth I feel sorry for you...

But at this time... I'm going to call it how I see it as the comment 300+ runs no sharpen as rubbish.

Sorry bud."

That one is a closed thread from yesterday so I cant quote it properly, but looks like you responded to that thread so you saw it, hence the "Mr. 700+ runs" comment. Haha

Lukums1 wrote: »

I know for a fact succession rings don't drop in VMA but necklace does on round 8.

I think I've obtained 1 winterborn ring with 500+ runs so not sure what's up with that.

Luke

That's a quote from today. People just make stuff up when it comes to the runs they have completed. I have stopped putting any faith in it. ZOS should give us a dungeon counter in our achievements tab so people can prove it.

You are not wrong though, if those runs are even close to being correct, it just shows how bad the problem is.

ha i never saw that second quote... now i'm pretty positive he's not being honest... i'm only sitting at number...50? 60? for vMA.... and i've sold handfuls of winterborn/succession jewelry (i think, i don't pay close attention to that garbage)... if i see a bunch of them in less than 100 runs... but he's only seen one in 500?... yeah, right.

Paneross

Yes

@ZOS_JasonI LETS DO THIS!
@ZOS_GinaBruno

Shader_Shibes

Yes

Today is a good day! Finally dropped sharpened inferno!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally, FINALLY i can quit this god forsaken place once and for all!









But i probably wont xD

Qbiken

Yes

Yes to a token system, then I think that 5 tokens are way to low but the amount of tokens is a topic for another thread.

My point is that the tokens system need to be well planned in order to work, not to many tokens, not to few in order to get a weapon. I think that you should be able to pick which weapon you want with a token system, but not the desirable trait. It´s been slightly confirmed that the drops of trait almost the same:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/302229/answered-vmsa-double-loot-trying-to-prove-that-the-rnjesus-is-skewed/p1

However, in the same post it´s also somewhat confirmed that the droprate of weapons isn´t even. Therefore I suggest that with a token system you can choose whatever weapon you want, but not trait of the weapon.

NewBlacksmurf

No

Qbiken wrote: »

Yes to a token system, then I think that 5 tokens are way to low but the amount of tokens is a topic for another thread.

My point is that the tokens system need to be well planned in order to work, not to many tokens, not to few in order to get a weapon. I think that you should be able to pick which weapon you want with a token system, but not the desirable trait. It´s been slightly confirmed that the drops of trait almost the same:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/302229/answered-vmsa-double-loot-trying-to-prove-that-the-rnjesus-is-skewed/p1

However, in the same post it´s also somewhat confirmed that the droprate of weapons isn´t even. Therefore I suggest that with a token system you can choose whatever weapon you want, but not trait of the weapon.

@Qbiken

So in reading this

Wouldn't the basic logical change be to select the weapon without tokens
Meaning all that's needed is to pre-select the weapon only minus the trait

I think that makes a ton of sense but I don't feel that tokens need to come into play at all

I've not seen anyone explain what the tokens do outside of getting a weapon or increasing chances to get a desired weapon. Why would anyone want another thing to require more runs especially if the value is empty after getting what you were after.

It just seems ppl want the item which in your comment makes the best sense. Moreso than anything I've suggested absent of the token of course

Jaronking

Yes

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Yes to a token system, then I think that 5 tokens are way to low but the amount of tokens is a topic for another thread.

My point is that the tokens system need to be well planned in order to work, not to many tokens, not to few in order to get a weapon. I think that you should be able to pick which weapon you want with a token system, but not the desirable trait. It´s been slightly confirmed that the drops of trait almost the same:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/302229/answered-vmsa-double-loot-trying-to-prove-that-the-rnjesus-is-skewed/p1

However, in the same post it´s also somewhat confirmed that the droprate of weapons isn´t even. Therefore I suggest that with a token system you can choose whatever weapon you want, but not trait of the weapon.

@Qbiken

So in reading this

Wouldn't the basic logical change be to select the weapon without tokens
Meaning all that's needed is to pre-select the weapon only minus the trait

I think that makes a ton of sense but I don't feel that tokens need to come into play at all

I've not seen anyone explain what the tokens do outside of getting a weapon or increasing chances to get a desired weapon. Why would anyone want another thing to require more runs especially if the value is empty after getting what you were after.

It just seems ppl want the item which in your comment makes the best sense. Moreso than anything I've suggested absent of the token of course

Well the system we have now and even your system will have people doing hundreds of runs and still not every get the trait you want.Right now you can be like me and do 300 runs and never get the 1 weapon and trait you want.We want our weapons in the right trait and light at the end of the tunnel right now their no light not even a exit sign its either quit or never get the weapon you want after 300+ runs.Their no reason no one should have to run something 300+ times and still not get the weapon and trait they want.Your solution doesn't change that.Tokens fix that.We want our reward for doing the content in a reliable way right now we don't have that.

The system we have now Is BS,

Am ask you this @NewBlacksmurf have you even completed VMA?

jakeedmundson

Yes

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Yes to a token system, then I think that 5 tokens are way to low but the amount of tokens is a topic for another thread.

My point is that the tokens system need to be well planned in order to work, not to many tokens, not to few in order to get a weapon. I think that you should be able to pick which weapon you want with a token system, but not the desirable trait. It´s been slightly confirmed that the drops of trait almost the same:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/302229/answered-vmsa-double-loot-trying-to-prove-that-the-rnjesus-is-skewed/p1

However, in the same post it´s also somewhat confirmed that the droprate of weapons isn´t even. Therefore I suggest that with a token system you can choose whatever weapon you want, but not trait of the weapon.

@Qbiken

So in reading this

Wouldn't the basic logical change be to select the weapon without tokens
Meaning all that's needed is to pre-select the weapon only minus the trait

I think that makes a ton of sense but I don't feel that tokens need to come into play at all

I've not seen anyone explain what the tokens do outside of getting a weapon or increasing chances to get a desired weapon. Why would anyone want another thing to require more runs especially if the value is empty after getting what you were after.

It just seems ppl want the item which in your comment makes the best sense. Moreso than anything I've suggested absent of the token of course

To me it sounds like the tokens you would get from trading in junk weapons is just a way to help you feel like you're gaining something from the completions... it doesn't matter if its 5, 10, 25 tokens to trade in... at least you could feel like you're progressing in some way.
During that time of doing the vma runs, you STILL would have a chance at getting a drop you want (so there is still value there)... the rng system is still in place.. but with a little bit of added protection. After x amount of runs with no luck, you could at least get the weapon TYPE you're looking for with a 1/8 chance of getting the right trait.

Ultimately this means you could still end up doing 100 runs if you're unlucky... but any change in this direction is something i would vote for...

Qbiken

Yes

Jaronking wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Yes to a token system, then I think that 5 tokens are way to low but the amount of tokens is a topic for another thread.

My point is that the tokens system need to be well planned in order to work, not to many tokens, not to few in order to get a weapon. I think that you should be able to pick which weapon you want with a token system, but not the desirable trait. It´s been slightly confirmed that the drops of trait almost the same:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/302229/answered-vmsa-double-loot-trying-to-prove-that-the-rnjesus-is-skewed/p1

However, in the same post it´s also somewhat confirmed that the droprate of weapons isn´t even. Therefore I suggest that with a token system you can choose whatever weapon you want, but not trait of the weapon.

@Qbiken

So in reading this

Wouldn't the basic logical change be to select the weapon without tokens
Meaning all that's needed is to pre-select the weapon only minus the trait

I think that makes a ton of sense but I don't feel that tokens need to come into play at all

I've not seen anyone explain what the tokens do outside of getting a weapon or increasing chances to get a desired weapon. Why would anyone want another thing to require more runs especially if the value is empty after getting what you were after.

It just seems ppl want the item which in your comment makes the best sense. Moreso than anything I've suggested absent of the token of course

Well the system we have now and even your system will have people doing hundreds of runs and still not every get the trait you want.Right now you can be like me and do 300 runs and never get the 1 weapon and trait you want.We want our weapons in the right trait and light at the end of the tunnel right now their no light not even a exit sign its either quit or never get the weapon you want after 300+ runs.Their no reason no one should have to run something 300+ times and still not get the weapon and trait they want.Your solution doesn't change that.Tokens fix that.We want our reward for doing the content in a reliable way right now we don't have that.

The system we have now Is BS,

Am ask you this @NewBlacksmurf have you even completed VMA?

Try to see it from ZOS side, they need to create it so that somehow people will still their content (therefore the RNG), even if the rng is adjusted. What´s the point of creating content that people after a while will stop doing (cries in imperial city)?

NewBlacksmurf

No

Jaronking wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Yes to a token system, then I think that 5 tokens are way to low but the amount of tokens is a topic for another thread.

My point is that the tokens system need to be well planned in order to work, not to many tokens, not to few in order to get a weapon. I think that you should be able to pick which weapon you want with a token system, but not the desirable trait. It´s been slightly confirmed that the drops of trait almost the same:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/302229/answered-vmsa-double-loot-trying-to-prove-that-the-rnjesus-is-skewed/p1

However, in the same post it´s also somewhat confirmed that the droprate of weapons isn´t even. Therefore I suggest that with a token system you can choose whatever weapon you want, but not trait of the weapon.

@Qbiken

So in reading this

Wouldn't the basic logical change be to select the weapon without tokens
Meaning all that's needed is to pre-select the weapon only minus the trait

I think that makes a ton of sense but I don't feel that tokens need to come into play at all

I've not seen anyone explain what the tokens do outside of getting a weapon or increasing chances to get a desired weapon. Why would anyone want another thing to require more runs especially if the value is empty after getting what you were after.

It just seems ppl want the item which in your comment makes the best sense. Moreso than anything I've suggested absent of the token of course

Well the system we have now and even your system will have people doing hundreds of runs and still not every get the trait you want.Right now you can be like me and do 300 runs and never get the 1 weapon and trait you want.We want our weapons in the right trait and light at the end of the tunnel right now their no light not even a exit sign its either quit or never get the weapon you want after 300+ runs.Their no reason no one should have to run something 300+ times and still not get the weapon and trait they want.Your solution doesn't change that.Tokens fix that.We want our reward for doing the content in a reliable way right now we don't have that.

The system we have now Is BS,

Am ask you this @NewBlacksmurf have you even completed VMA?

@Jaronking

Please go reread...my suggestion was
-no tokens
-remove many possible loot drops that are undesired
-have one person, two person and three person options with three different leaderboards

That drastically reduces the number of runs because it exponentially increased the % of desired drops.
That's in my opinion a very good idea and by adding more players you exponentially increase loot and it's trade-able for 2 hours. It's basically the dungeon set situation which did have items removed from the loot tables. People are getting good stuff from far less runs.

There is more than the loot drop concern in vMSA.

As such the other comment I thought was good was:
-picking the weapon type
-I didn't agree with acing tokens too because if you're getting tokens to pick a weapon, and we're changing stuff, just offer picking a weapon

To be honest....I don't disagree that the drop % of desired items is good but I also don't agree that the system needs to be changed to add in a new token system.

The issue isn't the system, the issue is the number of total possibilities compared to the desired outcome cause it's only one person doing the run. Equally you could just increase the amount of loot to 5 but that doesn't seem a popular idea
Tokens are not, what good is it to keep running something when the odds are less than 15% probable for a desired outcome?

Tokens isn't the answer in how it's been presented

NewBlacksmurf

No

@jakeedmundson

I disagree that any change based on your comment is better. I know you don't mean any so in that context....

Thing is there isn't just a loot drop concern in vMSA
I'm not trying to go off topic so I'm just saying that the token idea in a solo only situation with realistically proven, less than 15% loot drop chances isn't good. We all agree there

I think if the loot table isn't cleared up, even the tokens idea will still cause many runs

BUt if you add tokens now you have an inventory issue or complexity to address what value these tokens have cause if it's tokens then what other loot are you offering from said vendor or mail, chest, etc

I'm sitting at overal changes:

-loot table
-making it more than a solo only
-I like the idea of choosing a weapon type absent of a trait

Not that my ideas are the best but that's my perspective cause I'm one of those players that think solo only is rediculous on a MMO server
Also I think it's rediculous to create hard content and put people in situations where they consider their success chances less than 15% overall

Paneross

Yes

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

@jakeedmundson

I disagree that any change based on your comment is better. I know you don't mean any so in that context....

Thing is there isn't just a loot drop concern in vMSA
I'm not trying to go off topic so I'm just saying that the token idea in a solo only situation with realistically proven, less than 15% loot drop chances isn't good. We all agree there

I think if the loot table isn't cleared up, even the tokens idea will still cause many runs

BUt if you add tokens now you have an inventory issue or complexity to address what value these tokens have cause if it's tokens then what other loot are you offering from said vendor or mail, chest, etc

I'm sitting at overal changes:

-loot table
-making it more than a solo only
-I like the idea of choosing a weapon type absent of a trait

Not that my ideas are the best but that's my perspective cause I'm one of those players that think solo only is rediculous on a MMO server
Also I think it's rediculous to create hard content and put people in situations where they consider their success chances less than 15% overall

Giving us the option to choose the weapon while keeping the trait random would be an acceptable change instead of introducing some new system.

covenant_merchant

Yes

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Geez no.

Honestly the RNG is fine.

... I have kept on running vMSA and taking into account posts from others on forums and in-game, still ignoring double-posts (PC EU). This brings the total of the loot to roughly 1.5k (1,471 to be exact, but 1.5k sounds neater).
Below are the new and updated table and pie charts, because who doesn't love pie charts.








As with my previous graphs here, seems like the trait distribution is pretty balanced. However the item distribution is not, and that reflects with the sheer amount of Bows and Restoration staves that drop.
Again, this seems to confirm what @Alanar was saying a month ago.

Alanar wrote: »
So your chances of getting a specific weapon are:

Bow - 1/6
Restoration Staff - 1/6

Dagger - 1/12
Sword - 1/12
Mace - 1/12
Axe - 1/12

Greatsword - 1/18
Battle Axe - 1/18
Maul - 1/18
Lightning Staff - 1/18
Frost Staff - 1/18
Fire Staff - 1/18

So if you're hunting a sharpened fire staff, you have a 1/18 chance of getting a fire staff at all, and a 1/8 chance of getting sharpened, for a total chance of 1/144 on each drop.

"RNG is fine".

NewBlacksmurf

No

kasa-obake wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Geez no.

Honestly the RNG is fine.

... I have kept on running vMSA and taking into account posts from others on forums and in-game, still ignoring double-posts (PC EU). This brings the total of the loot to roughly 1.5k (1,471 to be exact, but 1.5k sounds neater).
Below are the new and updated table and pie charts, because who doesn't love pie charts.








As with my previous graphs here, seems like the trait distribution is pretty balanced. However the item distribution is not, and that reflects with the sheer amount of Bows and Restoration staves that drop.
Again, this seems to confirm what @Alanar was saying a month ago.

Alanar wrote: »
So your chances of getting a specific weapon are:

Bow - 1/6
Restoration Staff - 1/6

Dagger - 1/12
Sword - 1/12
Mace - 1/12
Axe - 1/12

Greatsword - 1/18
Battle Axe - 1/18
Maul - 1/18
Lightning Staff - 1/18
Frost Staff - 1/18
Fire Staff - 1/18

So if you're hunting a sharpened fire staff, you have a 1/18 chance of getting a fire staff at all, and a 1/8 chance of getting sharpened, for a total chance of 1/144 on each drop.

"RNG is fine".

@kasa-obake

Please read other comments instead of quoting me out of context
No harm intended I know but this thread tends to get heated

Check out the last page tho seriously

What are your thoughts on my comments through the thread

jakeedmundson

Yes

Qbiken wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Yes to a token system, then I think that 5 tokens are way to low but the amount of tokens is a topic for another thread.

My point is that the tokens system need to be well planned in order to work, not to many tokens, not to few in order to get a weapon. I think that you should be able to pick which weapon you want with a token system, but not the desirable trait. It´s been slightly confirmed that the drops of trait almost the same:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/302229/answered-vmsa-double-loot-trying-to-prove-that-the-rnjesus-is-skewed/p1

However, in the same post it´s also somewhat confirmed that the droprate of weapons isn´t even. Therefore I suggest that with a token system you can choose whatever weapon you want, but not trait of the weapon.

@Qbiken

So in reading this

Wouldn't the basic logical change be to select the weapon without tokens
Meaning all that's needed is to pre-select the weapon only minus the trait

I think that makes a ton of sense but I don't feel that tokens need to come into play at all

I've not seen anyone explain what the tokens do outside of getting a weapon or increasing chances to get a desired weapon. Why would anyone want another thing to require more runs especially if the value is empty after getting what you were after.

It just seems ppl want the item which in your comment makes the best sense. Moreso than anything I've suggested absent of the token of course

Well the system we have now and even your system will have people doing hundreds of runs and still not every get the trait you want.Right now you can be like me and do 300 runs and never get the 1 weapon and trait you want.We want our weapons in the right trait and light at the end of the tunnel right now their no light not even a exit sign its either quit or never get the weapon you want after 300+ runs.Their no reason no one should have to run something 300+ times and still not get the weapon and trait they want.Your solution doesn't change that.Tokens fix that.We want our reward for doing the content in a reliable way right now we don't have that.

The system we have now Is BS,

Am ask you this @NewBlacksmurf have you even completed VMA?

Try to see it from ZOS side, they need to create it so that somehow people will still their content (therefore the RNG), even if the rng is adjusted. What´s the point of creating content that people after a while will stop doing (cries in imperial city)?

The current system is worse though... people already stop playing the content because of LACK of drops. And not just vma... i mean all content... like stop playing the game because the motivation was killed.
I unsubbed because of vma... and now i ONLY play when a few specific friends need another person for a trial weekly run. (its not just me.. i personally know a few others that have done the same)
I don't log on to do writs, no farming, no dungeons, no crown store purchases, nothing... my motivation in this game is dead after trying to farm vma for a sharpened lightning staff... the 1/144 outlook isn't something worth the time.
I stay on the forums (for now) with hopes of hearing about a change thats coming... and because it's something i can do at my desk while i work.

NewBlacksmurf

No

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Yes to a token system, then I think that 5 tokens are way to low but the amount of tokens is a topic for another thread.

My point is that the tokens system need to be well planned in order to work, not to many tokens, not to few in order to get a weapon. I think that you should be able to pick which weapon you want with a token system, but not the desirable trait. It´s been slightly confirmed that the drops of trait almost the same:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/302229/answered-vmsa-double-loot-trying-to-prove-that-the-rnjesus-is-skewed/p1

However, in the same post it´s also somewhat confirmed that the droprate of weapons isn´t even. Therefore I suggest that with a token system you can choose whatever weapon you want, but not trait of the weapon.

@Qbiken

So in reading this

Wouldn't the basic logical change be to select the weapon without tokens
Meaning all that's needed is to pre-select the weapon only minus the trait

I think that makes a ton of sense but I don't feel that tokens need to come into play at all

I've not seen anyone explain what the tokens do outside of getting a weapon or increasing chances to get a desired weapon. Why would anyone want another thing to require more runs especially if the value is empty after getting what you were after.

It just seems ppl want the item which in your comment makes the best sense. Moreso than anything I've suggested absent of the token of course

Well the system we have now and even your system will have people doing hundreds of runs and still not every get the trait you want.Right now you can be like me and do 300 runs and never get the 1 weapon and trait you want.We want our weapons in the right trait and light at the end of the tunnel right now their no light not even a exit sign its either quit or never get the weapon you want after 300+ runs.Their no reason no one should have to run something 300+ times and still not get the weapon and trait they want.Your solution doesn't change that.Tokens fix that.We want our reward for doing the content in a reliable way right now we don't have that.

The system we have now Is BS,

Am ask you this @NewBlacksmurf have you even completed VMA?

Try to see it from ZOS side, they need to create it so that somehow people will still their content (therefore the RNG), even if the rng is adjusted. What´s the point of creating content that people after a while will stop doing (cries in imperial city)?

The current system is worse though... people already stop playing the content because of LACK of drops. And not just vma... i mean all content... like stop playing the game because the motivation was killed.
I unsubbed because of vma... and now i ONLY play when a few specific friends need another person for a trial weekly run. (its not just me.. i personally know a few others that have done the same)
I don't log on to do writs, no farming, no dungeons, no crown store purchases, nothing... my motivation in this game is dead after trying to farm vma for a sharpened lightning staff... the 1/144 outlook isn't something worth the time.
I stay on the forums (for now) with hopes of hearing about a change thats coming... and because it's something i can do at my desk while i work.

@jakeedmundson

Who are these people who are quitting due to non-vMSA drops?
The dungeons specifically normal and veteran is awesome! In my experiences since One Tamriel. Heck even selves are awesome

The drop rate is 100% and the traits are not bad cause adjustments were made so it's not always 1/9 for each oiece and we even know what bosses drop an item type

Cause of this, it's where my comments around vMSA come from
Regarding unaubscribbing....not sure that matters because a subscription doesn't impact loot

Maybe the company looks at it but they've added more real money options so it may not matter as much as it would've last year

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Yes

Meld777 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

That's a quote from today. People just make stuff up when it comes to the runs they have completed. I have stopped putting any faith in it. ZOS should give us a dungeon counter in our achievements tab so people can prove it.

You are not wrong though, if those runs are even close to being correct, it just shows how bad the problem is.

You're right, but you don't really need proof, math is enough. Just don't believe people you don't know personally that ran it, or just ignore it. But to give you an example, I ran it 450 times, didn't get the weapon I was after (Sharpened Inferno Staff). Do the math and you'll see the chance for that to happen to anyone is 5%. 5 out of 100 people. Take 100 people (from leaderboard of 1 class for example), 5 of them got screwed in 450 runs. At the same time, it means that 95 of them didn't get screwed. And now they come to this thread with #NoToTokenSystem. Disgusting.

Proof would be helpful IMO. Believe me, I have been ranting about the need to change the loot system in VMA for months. The problem is that when people come on here boasting about obscene amounts of runs and are found not credible, it diminishes the problem.

jakeedmundson

Yes

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Yes to a token system, then I think that 5 tokens are way to low but the amount of tokens is a topic for another thread.

My point is that the tokens system need to be well planned in order to work, not to many tokens, not to few in order to get a weapon. I think that you should be able to pick which weapon you want with a token system, but not the desirable trait. It´s been slightly confirmed that the drops of trait almost the same:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/302229/answered-vmsa-double-loot-trying-to-prove-that-the-rnjesus-is-skewed/p1

However, in the same post it´s also somewhat confirmed that the droprate of weapons isn´t even. Therefore I suggest that with a token system you can choose whatever weapon you want, but not trait of the weapon.

@Qbiken

So in reading this

Wouldn't the basic logical change be to select the weapon without tokens
Meaning all that's needed is to pre-select the weapon only minus the trait

I think that makes a ton of sense but I don't feel that tokens need to come into play at all

I've not seen anyone explain what the tokens do outside of getting a weapon or increasing chances to get a desired weapon. Why would anyone want another thing to require more runs especially if the value is empty after getting what you were after.

It just seems ppl want the item which in your comment makes the best sense. Moreso than anything I've suggested absent of the token of course

Well the system we have now and even your system will have people doing hundreds of runs and still not every get the trait you want.Right now you can be like me and do 300 runs and never get the 1 weapon and trait you want.We want our weapons in the right trait and light at the end of the tunnel right now their no light not even a exit sign its either quit or never get the weapon you want after 300+ runs.Their no reason no one should have to run something 300+ times and still not get the weapon and trait they want.Your solution doesn't change that.Tokens fix that.We want our reward for doing the content in a reliable way right now we don't have that.

The system we have now Is BS,

Am ask you this @NewBlacksmurf have you even completed VMA?

Try to see it from ZOS side, they need to create it so that somehow people will still their content (therefore the RNG), even if the rng is adjusted. What´s the point of creating content that people after a while will stop doing (cries in imperial city)?

The current system is worse though... people already stop playing the content because of LACK of drops. And not just vma... i mean all content... like stop playing the game because the motivation was killed.
I unsubbed because of vma... and now i ONLY play when a few specific friends need another person for a trial weekly run. (its not just me.. i personally know a few others that have done the same)
I don't log on to do writs, no farming, no dungeons, no crown store purchases, nothing... my motivation in this game is dead after trying to farm vma for a sharpened lightning staff... the 1/144 outlook isn't something worth the time.
I stay on the forums (for now) with hopes of hearing about a change thats coming... and because it's something i can do at my desk while i work.

@jakeedmundson

Who are these people who are quitting due to non-vMSA drops?
The dungeons specifically normal and veteran is awesome! In my experiences since One Tamriel. Heck even selves are awesome

The drop rate is 100% and the traits are not bad cause adjustments were made so it's not always 1/9 for each oiece and we even know what bosses drop an item type

Cause of this, it's where my comments around vMSA come from
Regarding unaubscribbing....not sure that matters because a subscription doesn't impact loot

Maybe the company looks at it but they've added more real money options so it may not matter as much as it would've last year

Ha sorry... it may have been written weird...

i didn't mean we quit playing because of non vma drops... i meant the lack of useful drops/wasted time FROM vma ruined our motivation for the rest of the game.

And i mentioned unsubbing because essentially vma is the cause for me spending less money on this game... and money talks... or at least its supposed to?

covenant_merchant

Yes

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

kasa-obake wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Geez no.

Honestly the RNG is fine.

... I have kept on running vMSA and taking into account posts from others on forums and in-game, still ignoring double-posts (PC EU). This brings the total of the loot to roughly 1.5k (1,471 to be exact, but 1.5k sounds neater).
Below are the new and updated table and pie charts, because who doesn't love pie charts.








As with my previous graphs here, seems like the trait distribution is pretty balanced. However the item distribution is not, and that reflects with the sheer amount of Bows and Restoration staves that drop.
Again, this seems to confirm what @Alanar was saying a month ago.

Alanar wrote: »
So your chances of getting a specific weapon are:

Bow - 1/6
Restoration Staff - 1/6

Dagger - 1/12
Sword - 1/12
Mace - 1/12
Axe - 1/12

Greatsword - 1/18
Battle Axe - 1/18
Maul - 1/18
Lightning Staff - 1/18
Frost Staff - 1/18
Fire Staff - 1/18

So if you're hunting a sharpened fire staff, you have a 1/18 chance of getting a fire staff at all, and a 1/8 chance of getting sharpened, for a total chance of 1/144 on each drop.

"RNG is fine".

@kasa-obake

Please read other comments instead of quoting me out of context
No harm intended I know but this thread tends to get heated

Check out the last page tho seriously

What are your thoughts on my comments through the thread

The whole point of the rng not being fine is that the probabilities to drop are different. On top of having useless items/traits, as you said, the odds aren't fair. And I'd rather run it 200 times to get tokens to be sure 100% that I will get my vMSA inferno sharpened staff in exchange, than run it 500 times and hop that I will get the 0.006% run when the staff will drop, as it is now.

Dubhliam

Yes

Separate tokens, one for each Arena.
Given as deconstruction material.

NewBlacksmurf

No

kasa-obake wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

kasa-obake wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Geez no.

Honestly the RNG is fine.

... I have kept on running vMSA and taking into account posts from others on forums and in-game, still ignoring double-posts (PC EU). This brings the total of the loot to roughly 1.5k (1,471 to be exact, but 1.5k sounds neater).
Below are the new and updated table and pie charts, because who doesn't love pie charts.








As with my previous graphs here, seems like the trait distribution is pretty balanced. However the item distribution is not, and that reflects with the sheer amount of Bows and Restoration staves that drop.
Again, this seems to confirm what @Alanar was saying a month ago.

Alanar wrote: »
So your chances of getting a specific weapon are:

Bow - 1/6
Restoration Staff - 1/6

Dagger - 1/12
Sword - 1/12
Mace - 1/12
Axe - 1/12

Greatsword - 1/18
Battle Axe - 1/18
Maul - 1/18
Lightning Staff - 1/18
Frost Staff - 1/18
Fire Staff - 1/18

So if you're hunting a sharpened fire staff, you have a 1/18 chance of getting a fire staff at all, and a 1/8 chance of getting sharpened, for a total chance of 1/144 on each drop.

"RNG is fine".

@kasa-obake

Please read other comments instead of quoting me out of context
No harm intended I know but this thread tends to get heated

Check out the last page tho seriously

What are your thoughts on my comments through the thread

The whole point of the rng not being fine is that the probabilities to drop are different. On top of having useless items/traits, as you said, the odds aren't fair. And I'd rather run it 200 times to get tokens to be sure 100% that I will get my vMSA inferno sharpened staff in exchange, than run it 500 times and hop that I will get the 0.006% run when the staff will drop, as it is now.

@kasa-obake

Why you or anyone want to run anything over 100 times?
Not that I have the answer but let's use the graphs...

If it's changed that after each completed run:
1. You can designate the weapon type (not trait)
2. If you can run it solo, with one other and with a third considering #1.
3. Adjust loot tables (removing specific items out)

That's a lot higher probability and there are only 9 possible outcomes each run solo but in groups of two or three, there's possibilities of doing it faster with better outcomes

Even if you're against duo or three person attempts, to me, this is a heck of a lot better than just adding tokens
Tokens aren't going to lessen the amount of runs because it's still random

alexkdd99

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

I just don't want to have to do 400 more runs of VMA to get me a sharpened VMA 2h.I'll rather quit the game.Is that what you want people to do @NewBlacksmurf would you rather they quit the game then having a reasonable way of getting the reward they deserve for doing the content.

@Jaronking
I believe my vote is causing you to take my opinion wrong.

I'm just completely against any ideas of a token system. I'm all for positive changes that don't involve any requirements to run more

Ideas like removing certain loot possibilities from the loot table as well as adding two person and three person run options for increased loot results with shareable drops for 2 hours as well as adding two more leader boards.

That doesn't make any sense in context with what op is suggesting. You still get rewards for each run but you have an added safety net to ensure you eventually get your desired reward. Even with pulling less desired traits you still could never get your desired item. Considering VMA is the only end game solo content in the game i doubt they would ever allow more than 1 person.

As it stands you still have to run it a ton to get a desired item. If anything, adding a token system would decrease the total number of runs required in order to get your desired item. You keep saying no requirements to run more but i would say the number of people who got what they wanted in under 5 runs is few and far between. Tokens would decrease the total number of runs required for the vast majority of people completing VMA, and those who did get their desired item would still get it in the same amount of runs as before.

Adding tokens would in fact lower the number of runs required to get your desired items, definitely would not increase the number of runs needed. You would still have the chance to get your item each run. It is impossible for this solution to ever require someone to run more times verses the current system.

Artis

No

Paneross wrote: »

WoW token system for BiS end game gear, that's just a small MMO though.

FFXI has a token system for BiS end game gear.

Many others too. Undaunted keys are a essentially a token system.

You can keep saying dumb things to keep farming "agrees" from others like you all you want, but it won't change the truth.

Keys are not tokens. They are pure RNG. They are worse than killing bosses - in that case you at least know the helmet of which set you will get. Keys? You just get to kill one of the bosses blindly per key, basically. And you don't even know which one.

In WoW best gear would drop in raid or gated behind arena ratings. You couldn't gear up in BiS gear for tokens. Unless something changed in late pandaria and after and I didn't know. Then it will explain why they are losing subs. That other game? Idk, I would only keep in mind successful MMOs, not tasteless clones.


Have you even played wow? It was good f luck getting into a raid without having all gear for tokens. Why would anyone sane want that in ESO? It's unhealthy for the game. It's making it even more difficult for players to get into trials. You need to stop being selfish and be ready for any changes that will bring you loot that you want.

The game is not about you. The loot is not about you. You are not supposed to count on master weapons. Run vMA if it's fun or don't run it.

You didn't address any of the cons I brought up, you only brought up some other MMOs forgetting that they are all crappy and fails (except for wow maybe, where you can't get bis gear just for tokens).


@kasa-obake

How funny. So some weapons drop more often and you say it's not balanced. But the fact that sharpened trait drops 2 times more often than any other trait doesn't bother you and you say it's "pretty balanced"? So nerf bow/resto, but don't nerf sharpened? The hypocrisy of some people..

In fact, it's arguable that the distribution should be uniform for types. It's probably uniform for type-trait combos, and it makes sense.


What they could do is make us choose the pools of items we will draw from. Or introduce reasonable loot table, not this every item can drop from every boss thing.

Kodrac

Tryxus wrote: »

Is it that time of the month again?

Aunt Flo is visiting?

Paneross

Yes

Artis wrote: »

Paneross wrote: »

WoW token system for BiS end game gear, that's just a small MMO though.

FFXI has a token system for BiS end game gear.

Many others too. Undaunted keys are a essentially a token system.

You can keep saying dumb things to keep farming "agrees" from others like you all you want, but it won't change the truth.

Keys are not tokens. They are pure RNG. They are worse than killing bosses - in that case you at least know the helmet of which set you will get. Keys? You just get to kill one of the bosses blindly per key, basically. And you don't even know which one.

In WoW best gear would drop in raid or gated behind arena ratings. You couldn't gear up in BiS gear for tokens. Unless something changed in late pandaria and after and I didn't know. Then it will explain why they are losing subs. That other game? Idk, I would only keep in mind successful MMOs, not tasteless clones.


Have you even played wow? It was good f luck getting into a raid without having all gear for tokens. Why would anyone sane want that in ESO? It's unhealthy for the game. It's making it even more difficult for players to get into trials. You need to stop being selfish and be ready for any changes that will bring you loot that you want.

The game is not about you. The loot is not about you. You are not supposed to count on master weapons. Run vMA if it's fun or don't run it.

You didn't address any of the cons I brought up, you only brought up some other MMOs forgetting that they are all crappy and fails (except for wow maybe, where you can't get bis gear just for tokens).


@kasa-obake

How funny. So some weapons drop more often and you say it's not balanced. But the fact that sharpened trait drops 2 times more often than any other trait doesn't bother you and you say it's "pretty balanced"? So nerf bow/resto, but don't nerf sharpened? The hypocrisy of some people..

In fact, it's arguable that the distribution should be uniform for types. It's probably uniform for type-trait combos, and it makes sense.


What they could do is make us choose the pools of items we will draw from. Or introduce reasonable loot table, not this every item can drop from every boss thing.

FFXI still has a bigger population than ESO and its over 10 years old. How is that a failed MMO? We'll be lucky if ESO is still here after five years.

Artis

No

Paneross wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Paneross wrote: »

WoW token system for BiS end game gear, that's just a small MMO though.

FFXI has a token system for BiS end game gear.

Many others too. Undaunted keys are a essentially a token system.

You can keep saying dumb things to keep farming "agrees" from others like you all you want, but it won't change the truth.

Keys are not tokens. They are pure RNG. They are worse than killing bosses - in that case you at least know the helmet of which set you will get. Keys? You just get to kill one of the bosses blindly per key, basically. And you don't even know which one.

In WoW best gear would drop in raid or gated behind arena ratings. You couldn't gear up in BiS gear for tokens. Unless something changed in late pandaria and after and I didn't know. Then it will explain why they are losing subs. That other game? Idk, I would only keep in mind successful MMOs, not tasteless clones.


Have you even played wow? It was good f luck getting into a raid without having all gear for tokens. Why would anyone sane want that in ESO? It's unhealthy for the game. It's making it even more difficult for players to get into trials. You need to stop being selfish and be ready for any changes that will bring you loot that you want.

The game is not about you. The loot is not about you. You are not supposed to count on master weapons. Run vMA if it's fun or don't run it.

You didn't address any of the cons I brought up, you only brought up some other MMOs forgetting that they are all crappy and fails (except for wow maybe, where you can't get bis gear just for tokens).


@kasa-obake

How funny. So some weapons drop more often and you say it's not balanced. But the fact that sharpened trait drops 2 times more often than any other trait doesn't bother you and you say it's "pretty balanced"? So nerf bow/resto, but don't nerf sharpened? The hypocrisy of some people..

In fact, it's arguable that the distribution should be uniform for types. It's probably uniform for type-trait combos, and it makes sense.


What they could do is make us choose the pools of items we will draw from. Or introduce reasonable loot table, not this every item can drop from every boss thing.

FFXI still has a bigger population than ESO and its over 10 years old. How is that a failed MMO? We'll be lucky if ESO is still here after five years.

ESO is new, that combination of letters is nothing compared to wow. haven't even heard about it. Also, old/populated != good.

Either way, you still didn't address any of the reasons not to introduce the token system for BiS gear. That players will be forced to farm BiS gear to get into any good group and their chances to get kicked in group finder will increase, etc. Are you seriously ready to ignore all those issues just so that you can get your weapon, play a bit more and leave the game? (Because it will become dead and crappy).

Paneross

Yes

Artis wrote: »

Paneross wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Paneross wrote: »

WoW token system for BiS end game gear, that's just a small MMO though.

FFXI has a token system for BiS end game gear.

Many others too. Undaunted keys are a essentially a token system.

You can keep saying dumb things to keep farming "agrees" from others like you all you want, but it won't change the truth.

Keys are not tokens. They are pure RNG. They are worse than killing bosses - in that case you at least know the helmet of which set you will get. Keys? You just get to kill one of the bosses blindly per key, basically. And you don't even know which one.

In WoW best gear would drop in raid or gated behind arena ratings. You couldn't gear up in BiS gear for tokens. Unless something changed in late pandaria and after and I didn't know. Then it will explain why they are losing subs. That other game? Idk, I would only keep in mind successful MMOs, not tasteless clones.


Have you even played wow? It was good f luck getting into a raid without having all gear for tokens. Why would anyone sane want that in ESO? It's unhealthy for the game. It's making it even more difficult for players to get into trials. You need to stop being selfish and be ready for any changes that will bring you loot that you want.

The game is not about you. The loot is not about you. You are not supposed to count on master weapons. Run vMA if it's fun or don't run it.

You didn't address any of the cons I brought up, you only brought up some other MMOs forgetting that they are all crappy and fails (except for wow maybe, where you can't get bis gear just for tokens).


@kasa-obake

How funny. So some weapons drop more often and you say it's not balanced. But the fact that sharpened trait drops 2 times more often than any other trait doesn't bother you and you say it's "pretty balanced"? So nerf bow/resto, but don't nerf sharpened? The hypocrisy of some people..

In fact, it's arguable that the distribution should be uniform for types. It's probably uniform for type-trait combos, and it makes sense.


What they could do is make us choose the pools of items we will draw from. Or introduce reasonable loot table, not this every item can drop from every boss thing.

FFXI still has a bigger population than ESO and its over 10 years old. How is that a failed MMO? We'll be lucky if ESO is still here after five years.

ESO is new, that combination of letters is nothing compared to wow. haven't even heard about it. Also, old/populated != good.

Either way, you still didn't address any of the reasons not to introduce the token system for BiS gear. That players will be forced to farm BiS gear to get into any good group and their chances to get kicked in group finder will increase, etc. Are you seriously ready to ignore all those issues just so that you can get your weapon, play a bit more and leave the game? (Because it will become dead and crappy).

I have other posts and comments regarding balance and fixing the game. This post is regarding VMA drops and how the MAJORITY has an issue with them.

Which category do you fall under?
1. You got lucky and got the best rolls in just a few runs.
2. You can't beat VMA so you don't want others having a better opportunity to obtain sought after weapons?

NewBlacksmurf

No

alexkdd99 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

I just don't want to have to do 400 more runs of VMA to get me a sharpened VMA 2h.I'll rather quit the game.Is that what you want people to do @NewBlacksmurf would you rather they quit the game then having a reasonable way of getting the reward they deserve for doing the content.

@Jaronking
I believe my vote is causing you to take my opinion wrong.

I'm just completely against any ideas of a token system. I'm all for positive changes that don't involve any requirements to run more

Ideas like removing certain loot possibilities from the loot table as well as adding two person and three person run options for increased loot results with shareable drops for 2 hours as well as adding two more leader boards.

That doesn't make any sense in context with what op is suggesting. You still get rewards for each run but you have an added safety net to ensure you eventually get your desired reward. Even with pulling less desired traits you still could never get your desired item. Considering VMA is the only end game solo content in the game i doubt they would ever allow more than 1 person.

As it stands you still have to run it a ton to get a desired item. If anything, adding a token system would decrease the total number of runs required in order to get your desired item. You keep saying no requirements to run more but i would say the number of people who got what they wanted in under 5 runs is few and far between. Tokens would decrease the total number of runs required for the vast majority of people completing VMA, and those who did get their desired item would still get it in the same amount of runs as before.

Adding tokens would in fact lower the number of runs required to get your desired items, definitely would not increase the number of runs needed. You would still have the chance to get your item each run. It is impossible for this solution to ever require someone to run more times verses the current system.

@alexkdd99

Please explain how exactly adding a token shortens the amount of runs

I gather it's assumed but it's not guaranteed so that's why I don't believe it to be the best suggestion
Also as the other comments and threads have shown, the loot table is still not addressed

Lastly what value are the tokens other than an extra RNG for loot?
I'm trying to think about impactful changes not an assumed theory cause as some say...they've done 200, 300 or even 700 runs. The token idea doesn't mean 200 run equal 400 runs.
It only means another chance with the same exact RNG options which isn't better....it's just assumed to be better


It's like people who buy multiple lottery tickets chances thinking it increases their odds....the difference here is there isn't a min or max number of chances so the RNG is infinite and doesn't aggregate up the more you run regardless of having a token

Blackfyre20

Yes

Artis wrote: »

Absolutely no BiS or end-game loot should be available for tokens. Tokens are for people to catch up so they can start doing end-game content in case they are 1+ tiers behind in progression. There's no raid progression here, unlike in WoW where token system was needed.

Introducing it here won't end well.

It will force new players to farm vMA. They will have absolutely no excuse not to have master weapons. Remember all these threads about getting kicked from the group due to low CP? Introduce tokens and get more of those. But now it will also be about not being able to raid because no good PVE guild will take a player with no weapons then. And group content will be quite literally gated behind solo content.

Not to mention, that the whole point of master weapons was to have something rare and usable in combat. Token system = in a couple of months absolutely everyone in the end game will have those weapons, so bye build diversity. Even now almost everyone has it already (the game has no dungeon cooldowns, so of course), but it will be much worse.

Noticed how lately in guides they give you options depending on whether or not you have a vMA weapon? Or aether weapon? That's good. Not having a vMA weapon encourages people to try other builds and gear.

You aren't supposed to farm a vMA weapon. You aren't supposed to count on it either. You're supposed to run vMA for fun or score and if you're lucky - you get a weapon from there. If you don't like it - don't run it. It's very simple.
You want them to change their philosophy with the weapons so they become common and do it with another piece of gear? Then you will whine about that piece of gear. It's an MMO, not MOBA, people aren't supposed to have the same gear.

Someone got their sharpened vMA 2h on their first run...

Beardimus

Yes

Still needs a bit of RNG like you say. And a enough passes to make it a challenge.

First pass you should get a better chance at something, and flawless should automatically get sharp/BIS first time.

jakeedmundson

Yes

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

I just don't want to have to do 400 more runs of VMA to get me a sharpened VMA 2h.I'll rather quit the game.Is that what you want people to do @NewBlacksmurf would you rather they quit the game then having a reasonable way of getting the reward they deserve for doing the content.

@Jaronking
I believe my vote is causing you to take my opinion wrong.

I'm just completely against any ideas of a token system. I'm all for positive changes that don't involve any requirements to run more

Ideas like removing certain loot possibilities from the loot table as well as adding two person and three person run options for increased loot results with shareable drops for 2 hours as well as adding two more leader boards.

That doesn't make any sense in context with what op is suggesting. You still get rewards for each run but you have an added safety net to ensure you eventually get your desired reward. Even with pulling less desired traits you still could never get your desired item. Considering VMA is the only end game solo content in the game i doubt they would ever allow more than 1 person.

As it stands you still have to run it a ton to get a desired item. If anything, adding a token system would decrease the total number of runs required in order to get your desired item. You keep saying no requirements to run more but i would say the number of people who got what they wanted in under 5 runs is few and far between. Tokens would decrease the total number of runs required for the vast majority of people completing VMA, and those who did get their desired item would still get it in the same amount of runs as before.

Adding tokens would in fact lower the number of runs required to get your desired items, definitely would not increase the number of runs needed. You would still have the chance to get your item each run. It is impossible for this solution to ever require someone to run more times verses the current system.

@alexkdd99

Please explain how exactly adding a token shortens the amount of runs

I gather it's assumed but it's not guaranteed so that's why I don't believe it to be the best suggestion
Also as the other comments and threads have shown, the loot table is still not addressed

Lastly what value are the tokens other than an extra RNG for loot?
I'm trying to think about impactful changes not an assumed theory cause as some say...they've done 200, 300 or even 700 runs. The token idea doesn't mean 200 run equal 400 runs.
It only means another chance with the same exact RNG options which isn't better....it's just assumed to be better


It's like people who buy multiple lottery tickets chances thinking it increases their odds....the difference here is there isn't a min or max number of chances so the RNG is infinite and doesn't aggregate up the more you run regardless of having a token

I'm not picking on anything here... but i think you missed something.

the idea behind this token concept is that you get to CHOOSE the weapon type you want after x amount of tokens...
That means you WILL get at least the item you're after... trait still being random keeps rng in the mix.

Lets take me for example:
i've gotten 50-60 drops... no lightning staff (its the only thing i cared to find in the arena)
if i could trade in 10, 20, 50, etc. of those garbage drops for the option to choose the weapon type i wanted... that would give me at least the weapon i wanted... if i want a different trait then what i received from that token trade, i would have to farm those tokens again... OR get lucky and have it drop from the rng system at the end of the round.
It would still lessen the runs in some way... because the truth is, i would settle for precise or nirnhoned.. not just sharpened for my build... that's 3/8 traits... not a bad shot at getting something useful.

It seems like you're just thinking you get a set of tokens and hand them in for the same random crap shoot on a weapon roll just like when you finish the arena... i agree, that would be worthless.