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Token System for VMA & VDSA
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Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesOreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
That's a quote from today. People just make stuff up when it comes to the runs they have completed. I have stopped putting any faith in it. ZOS should give us a dungeon counter in our achievements tab so people can prove it.
You are not wrong though, if those runs are even close to being correct, it just shows how bad the problem is.
You're right, but you don't really need proof, math is enough. Just don't believe people you don't know personally that ran it, or just ignore it. But to give you an example, I ran it 450 times, didn't get the weapon I was after (Sharpened Inferno Staff). Do the math and you'll see the chance for that to happen to anyone is 5%. 5 out of 100 people. Take 100 people (from leaderboard of 1 class for example), 5 of them got screwed in 450 runs. At the same time, it means that 95 of them didn't get screwed. And now they come to this thread with #NoToTokenSystem. Disgusting.
Proof would be helpful IMO. Believe me, I have been ranting about the need to change the loot system in VMA for months. The problem is that when people come on here boasting about obscene amounts of runs and are found not credible, it diminishes the problem.
Exactly.
There are so many biased opinions and "facts" that people keep spouting on these forums that you simply cannot trust any of those information.
On the other hand, it is also hard to test these chances yourself since you will never have a large pool of drops for the results to be viable.
A token system would be a nice solution to the problem, everyone agrees on that.
I for one don't farm Dragonstar at all, but if there was a token system, I would be all over it.
Also, I stopped farming Maelstrom once the double drop rate event finished.0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nojakeedmundson wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I just don't want to have to do 400 more runs of VMA to get me a sharpened VMA 2h.I'll rather quit the game.Is that what you want people to do @NewBlacksmurf would you rather they quit the game then having a reasonable way of getting the reward they deserve for doing the content.
@Jaronking
I believe my vote is causing you to take my opinion wrong.
I'm just completely against any ideas of a token system. I'm all for positive changes that don't involve any requirements to run more
Ideas like removing certain loot possibilities from the loot table as well as adding two person and three person run options for increased loot results with shareable drops for 2 hours as well as adding two more leader boards.
That doesn't make any sense in context with what op is suggesting. You still get rewards for each run but you have an added safety net to ensure you eventually get your desired reward. Even with pulling less desired traits you still could never get your desired item. Considering VMA is the only end game solo content in the game i doubt they would ever allow more than 1 person.
As it stands you still have to run it a ton to get a desired item. If anything, adding a token system would decrease the total number of runs required in order to get your desired item. You keep saying no requirements to run more but i would say the number of people who got what they wanted in under 5 runs is few and far between. Tokens would decrease the total number of runs required for the vast majority of people completing VMA, and those who did get their desired item would still get it in the same amount of runs as before.
Adding tokens would in fact lower the number of runs required to get your desired items, definitely would not increase the number of runs needed. You would still have the chance to get your item each run. It is impossible for this solution to ever require someone to run more times verses the current system.
@alexkdd99
Please explain how exactly adding a token shortens the amount of runs
I gather it's assumed but it's not guaranteed so that's why I don't believe it to be the best suggestion
Also as the other comments and threads have shown, the loot table is still not addressed
Lastly what value are the tokens other than an extra RNG for loot?
I'm trying to think about impactful changes not an assumed theory cause as some say...they've done 200, 300 or even 700 runs. The token idea doesn't mean 200 run equal 400 runs.
It only means another chance with the same exact RNG options which isn't better....it's just assumed to be better
It's like people who buy multiple lottery tickets chances thinking it increases their odds....the difference here is there isn't a min or max number of chances so the RNG is infinite and doesn't aggregate up the more you run regardless of having a token
I'm not picking on anything here... but i think you missed something.
the idea behind this token concept is that you get to CHOOSE the weapon type you want after x amount of tokens...
That means you WILL get at least the item you're after... trait still being random keeps rng in the mix.
Lets take me for example:
i've gotten 50-60 drops... no lightning staff (its the only thing i cared to find in the arena)
if i could trade in 10, 20, 50, etc. of those garbage drops for the option to choose the weapon type i wanted... that would give me at least the weapon i wanted... if i want a different trait then what i received from that token trade, i would have to farm those tokens again... OR get lucky and have it drop from the rng system at the end of the round.
It would still lessen the runs in some way... because the truth is, i would settle for precise or nirnhoned.. not just sharpened for my build... that's 3/8 traits... not a bad shot at getting something useful.
It seems like you're just thinking you get a set of tokens and hand them in for the same random crap shoot on a weapon roll just like when you finish the arena... i agree, that would be worthless.
@jakeedmundson
I didn't miss that, I just disagree that it's a better solution vs my idea
I personally don't believe that any game should ever give you an item of your choosing regardless
Like the AP or TV farming and ppl buy stuff
But that's really different so I won't go into it.
Back to what you felt I missed
In that idea, what happens is the intent is to better your odds.
The reality is that you're odds aren't increased at all.
What happens is you have to keep running until you accumulate tokens if the desired item doesn't drop
Here's the issue
So instead of it being a chance, and we all agree that the chance is an issue, the idea is avoiding addressing the identified problem. The solution neither addresses the issue but also maintains a requirement to keep running
For those who have committed to doing endless runs until they get the item, that may come off better because they perceive an end but what about the tokens?
What's the purpose?
Meaning, in an ideal situation, you run 50 times and bam the item drops. Let's say you're token count is X.
Why are you suggesting to add tokens if other than the desired weapon, the tokens serve no purpose?
That's my reason for disagreement as I passionately disagree that a viable solution is to add in a system without it being meaningful and rewarding outside of what exists. What's the point of tokens if you can get the drop without.
Why not fix the issue vs creating another system ?
-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
Jaronking✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes
He hasn't .He tired it on multiple characters but never completed it .montiferus wrote: »NewBlacksmurf
Have you completed VMA?0 -
montiferus✭✭✭✭✭YesYeah that is kind of what I gathered from him post. I would like confirmation from him definitely before I state my opinion as I hope I am wrong but I suspect I am not.0
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covenant_merchant✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes@kasa-obake
How funny. So some weapons drop more often and you say it's not balanced. But the fact that sharpened trait drops 2 times more often than any other trait doesn't bother you and you say it's "pretty balanced"? So nerf bow/resto, but don't nerf sharpened? The hypocrisy of some people..
Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. Make all traits and items drop with the same probability instead of a single one per bow, resto staff, 2h packed together, and 1h grouped together.
I fail to see the hypocrisy. Please enlighten me.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »kasa-obake wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »kasa-obake wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Geez no.
Honestly the RNG is fine.
... I have kept on running vMSA and taking into account posts from others on forums and in-game, still ignoring double-posts (PC EU). This brings the total of the loot to roughly 1.5k (1,471 to be exact, but 1.5k sounds neater).
Below are the new and updated table and pie charts, because who doesn't love pie charts.
As with my previous graphs here, seems like the trait distribution is pretty balanced. However the item distribution is not, and that reflects with the sheer amount of Bows and Restoration staves that drop.
Again, this seems to confirm what @Alanar was saying a month ago.
Alanar wrote: »
So your chances of getting a specific weapon are:
Bow - 1/6
Restoration Staff - 1/6
Dagger - 1/12
Sword - 1/12
Mace - 1/12
Axe - 1/12
Greatsword - 1/18
Battle Axe - 1/18
Maul - 1/18
Lightning Staff - 1/18
Frost Staff - 1/18
Fire Staff - 1/18
So if you're hunting a sharpened fire staff, you have a 1/18 chance of getting a fire staff at all, and a 1/8 chance of getting sharpened, for a total chance of 1/144 on each drop.
"RNG is fine".
@kasa-obake
Please read other comments instead of quoting me out of context
No harm intended I know but this thread tends to get heated
Check out the last page tho seriously
What are your thoughts on my comments through the thread
The whole point of the rng not being fine is that the probabilities to drop are different. On top of having useless items/traits, as you said, the odds aren't fair. And I'd rather run it 200 times to get tokens to be sure 100% that I will get my vMSA inferno sharpened staff in exchange, than run it 500 times and hop that I will get the 0.006% run when the staff will drop, as it is now.
@kasa-obake
Why you or anyone want to run anything over 100 times?
Not that I have the answer but let's use the graphs...
If it's changed that after each completed run:
1. You can designate the weapon type (not trait)
2. If you can run it solo, with one other and with a third considering #1.
3. Adjust loot tables (removing specific items out)
That's a lot higher probability and there are only 9 possible outcomes each run solo but in groups of two or three, there's possibilities of doing it faster with better outcomes
Even if you're against duo or three person attempts, to me, this is a heck of a lot better than just adding tokens
Tokens aren't going to lessen the amount of runs because it's still random
Making vMSA group content would ruin its whole purpose. And otherwise, I genuinely don't understand what you're saying. I mean, it looks like English, it sounds like it, but it doesn't make sense.
I would rather have a system where 1 run = 1 token, and even important numbers like 200 tokens can be converted into the weapon of our choice. As it stands right now, I have run that *** 223 times without ever getting my desired weapons.
And tokens are the opposite of "random". They are a guarantee that after a certain number of runs you will get the thing you desire and perhaps rightfully deserve. After all my runs and work on it, I do indeed feel entitled as hell.Edited by covenant_merchant on December 9, 2016 11:46PM1 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No
He hasn't .He tired it on multiple characters but never completed it .montiferus wrote: »NewBlacksmurf
Have you completed VMA?
@Jaronking
Maaan if your gonna troll at least do so without assuming cause again you're off
But what does that have to do with this?
I guess you assume the devs have to complete it as well to understand the RNG opportunities right?
Edited by NewBlacksmurf on December 9, 2016 11:56PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
montiferus✭✭✭✭✭YesHe is trying to say that if you haven't experienced what we have doing the content then your opinion holds no weight. You can't appreciate the struggle.
I have only done VMA a fraction of some of my buddies (I'm probably at 40-50 runs) and I've only received a single sharpened weapon (bow). For me to achieve the highest possible DPS in a raid I need to replace my precise dagger and axe with sharpened. I don't mind hard content. I don't mind doing something quite a bit to get BIS gear but there has to be a point where the grind is considered absurd. For me I am not at the point as I haven't done it enough to complain. If I get to triple digits without my gear then I think that is the point at which the RNG makes the game a lot less fun to play.
Maybe the answer isn't a token system rather the removal of some of the worthless traits in the game (which BTW why are they even there in the first place? Each trait should have value to the game). Either way something needs to change.3 -
Jaronking✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes
Its not a assumption its what you wrote in the other thread.Now am not sure if you know what the truth is.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
He hasn't .He tired it on multiple characters but never completed it .montiferus wrote: »NewBlacksmurf
Have you completed VMA?
@Jaronking
Maaan if your gonna troll at least do so without assuming cause again you're off
But what does that have to do with this?
I guess you assume the devs have to complete it as well to understand the RNG opportunities right?
If the devs haven't completed VMA we have a lot more things to worry about when it comes to the development of this game.Yes the devs should run the content so they understand what the players go through while playing the content.
If you haven't been through the struggle then your opinion hold little weight in this discussion because you have experience what we had to deal with.Edited by Jaronking on December 10, 2016 12:14AM4 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nokasa-obake wrote: »@kasa-obake
How funny. So some weapons drop more often and you say it's not balanced. But the fact that sharpened trait drops 2 times more often than any other trait doesn't bother you and you say it's "pretty balanced"? So nerf bow/resto, but don't nerf sharpened? The hypocrisy of some people..
Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. Make all traits and items drop with the same probability instead of a single one per bow, resto staff, 2h packed together, and 1h grouped together.
I fail to see the hypocrisy. Please enlighten me.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »kasa-obake wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »kasa-obake wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Geez no.
Honestly the RNG is fine.
... I have kept on running vMSA and taking into account posts from others on forums and in-game, still ignoring double-posts (PC EU). This brings the total of the loot to roughly 1.5k (1,471 to be exact, but 1.5k sounds neater).
Below are the new and updated table and pie charts, because who doesn't love pie charts.
As with my previous graphs here, seems like the trait distribution is pretty balanced. However the item distribution is not, and that reflects with the sheer amount of Bows and Restoration staves that drop.
Again, this seems to confirm what @Alanar was saying a month ago.
Alanar wrote: »
So your chances of getting a specific weapon are:
Bow - 1/6
Restoration Staff - 1/6
Dagger - 1/12
Sword - 1/12
Mace - 1/12
Axe - 1/12
Greatsword - 1/18
Battle Axe - 1/18
Maul - 1/18
Lightning Staff - 1/18
Frost Staff - 1/18
Fire Staff - 1/18
So if you're hunting a sharpened fire staff, you have a 1/18 chance of getting a fire staff at all, and a 1/8 chance of getting sharpened, for a total chance of 1/144 on each drop.
"RNG is fine".
@kasa-obake
Please read other comments instead of quoting me out of context
No harm intended I know but this thread tends to get heated
Check out the last page tho seriously
What are your thoughts on my comments through the thread
The whole point of the rng not being fine is that the probabilities to drop are different. On top of having useless items/traits, as you said, the odds aren't fair. And I'd rather run it 200 times to get tokens to be sure 100% that I will get my vMSA inferno sharpened staff in exchange, than run it 500 times and hop that I will get the 0.006% run when the staff will drop, as it is now.
@kasa-obake
Why you or anyone want to run anything over 100 times?
Not that I have the answer but let's use the graphs...
If it's changed that after each completed run:
1. You can designate the weapon type (not trait)
2. If you can run it solo, with one other and with a third considering #1.
3. Adjust loot tables (removing specific items out)
That's a lot higher probability and there are only 9 possible outcomes each run solo but in groups of two or three, there's possibilities of doing it faster with better outcomes
Even if you're against duo or three person attempts, to me, this is a heck of a lot better than just adding tokens
Tokens aren't going to lessen the amount of runs because it's still random
Making vMSA group content would ruin its whole purpose. And otherwise, I genuinely don't understand what you're saying. I mean, it looks like English, it sounds like it, but it doesn't make sense.
I would rather have a system where 1 run = 1 token, and even important numbers like 200 tokens can be converted into the weapon of our choice. As it stands right now, I have run that *** 223 times without ever getting my desired weapons.
And tokens are the opposite of "random". They are a guarantee that after a certain number of runs you will get the thing you desire and perhaps rightfully deserve. After all my runs and work on it, I do indeed feel entitled as hell.
@kasa-obake
Ok so throwing out the group part...cool
I have to ask why you'd rather be forced to run it "200" times vs increasing the drop %?
That's the part I really don't understand in your comments.
Why do you want to do it even 50+ times in terms of talking about tokens
-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
mb10✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Token system?
Wow genius, Ive never heard of that idea before. Especially not on these forums...0 -
covenant_merchant✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesNewBlacksmurf wrote: »kasa-obake wrote: »@kasa-obake
How funny. So some weapons drop more often and you say it's not balanced. But the fact that sharpened trait drops 2 times more often than any other trait doesn't bother you and you say it's "pretty balanced"? So nerf bow/resto, but don't nerf sharpened? The hypocrisy of some people..
Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. Make all traits and items drop with the same probability instead of a single one per bow, resto staff, 2h packed together, and 1h grouped together.
I fail to see the hypocrisy. Please enlighten me.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »kasa-obake wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »kasa-obake wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Geez no.
Honestly the RNG is fine.
... I have kept on running vMSA and taking into account posts from others on forums and in-game, still ignoring double-posts (PC EU). This brings the total of the loot to roughly 1.5k (1,471 to be exact, but 1.5k sounds neater).
Below are the new and updated table and pie charts, because who doesn't love pie charts.
As with my previous graphs here, seems like the trait distribution is pretty balanced. However the item distribution is not, and that reflects with the sheer amount of Bows and Restoration staves that drop.
Again, this seems to confirm what @Alanar was saying a month ago.
Alanar wrote: »
So your chances of getting a specific weapon are:
Bow - 1/6
Restoration Staff - 1/6
Dagger - 1/12
Sword - 1/12
Mace - 1/12
Axe - 1/12
Greatsword - 1/18
Battle Axe - 1/18
Maul - 1/18
Lightning Staff - 1/18
Frost Staff - 1/18
Fire Staff - 1/18
So if you're hunting a sharpened fire staff, you have a 1/18 chance of getting a fire staff at all, and a 1/8 chance of getting sharpened, for a total chance of 1/144 on each drop.
"RNG is fine".
@kasa-obake
Please read other comments instead of quoting me out of context
No harm intended I know but this thread tends to get heated
Check out the last page tho seriously
What are your thoughts on my comments through the thread
The whole point of the rng not being fine is that the probabilities to drop are different. On top of having useless items/traits, as you said, the odds aren't fair. And I'd rather run it 200 times to get tokens to be sure 100% that I will get my vMSA inferno sharpened staff in exchange, than run it 500 times and hop that I will get the 0.006% run when the staff will drop, as it is now.
@kasa-obake
Why you or anyone want to run anything over 100 times?
Not that I have the answer but let's use the graphs...
If it's changed that after each completed run:
1. You can designate the weapon type (not trait)
2. If you can run it solo, with one other and with a third considering #1.
3. Adjust loot tables (removing specific items out)
That's a lot higher probability and there are only 9 possible outcomes each run solo but in groups of two or three, there's possibilities of doing it faster with better outcomes
Even if you're against duo or three person attempts, to me, this is a heck of a lot better than just adding tokens
Tokens aren't going to lessen the amount of runs because it's still random
Making vMSA group content would ruin its whole purpose. And otherwise, I genuinely don't understand what you're saying. I mean, it looks like English, it sounds like it, but it doesn't make sense.
I would rather have a system where 1 run = 1 token, and even important numbers like 200 tokens can be converted into the weapon of our choice. As it stands right now, I have run that *** 223 times without ever getting my desired weapons.
And tokens are the opposite of "random". They are a guarantee that after a certain number of runs you will get the thing you desire and perhaps rightfully deserve. After all my runs and work on it, I do indeed feel entitled as hell.
@kasa-obake
Ok so throwing out the group part...cool
I have to ask why you'd rather be forced to run it "200" times vs increasing the drop %?
That's the part I really don't understand in your comments.
Why do you want to do it even 50+ times in terms of talking about tokens
Because nobody is going to increase the % drop. They do not think it's broken. And some players like @Artis don't think so either.
There's been threads trying to bring ZOS' attention to the useless and rage-inducing loot that only ever brings one Dwemer Frame or 52 gold, and the fact that bows and restoration staves have 6 times more chances do drop than all the other loot, but to no avail.
As a rule, humans are risk-averse. Meaning that, given a greater chance to drop good loot in fewer runs, or a guaranteed certainty to drop it after more runs in exchange for tokens, they will prefer the latter. Especially when they do not trust the odds to begin with, because the company making them stays silent on the matter.
I personally dislike vMSA, but I can see why people chose to run it. It's a challenge, something to do that doesn't require a competent group, and something that you can get better at. Implementing it was a great idea. However they just had to put in all the trash loot and uneven drop rates following their trait overhaul.0 -
AlexTech0x✭✭✭jakeedmundson wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Geez no.
Honestly the RNG is fine. The only change you all need to suggest are to remove certain item possibilities from this particular loot table
You should not be required to do X number of runs to get "tokens" to exchange for goods
Terrible to add this
Um.... no.... no it's not "fine"
Either you don't run it... or you got your sharpened weapons quicker than most. (I don't care either way and i'm not going to look up your runs, twitch, etc.)
The RNG in this place is a nightmare. No one wants to run the same thing 100 friggin times and STILL not find something they're looking for...
Does this mean you don't use monster sets then? That is almost the exact same token system the OP is suggesting.
Do a dungeon for a key (or two now) hand those in to a certain chest with a reasonable chance at a set piece you want.
Except you can get 6 keys a day... per character... so that token system is WAYYYY better than this vMA token suggestion.
Difference is this is a stupid boring solo instance.1 -
Jaronking✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes
Have you completed VMA?AlexTech0x wrote: »jakeedmundson wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Geez no.
Honestly the RNG is fine. The only change you all need to suggest are to remove certain item possibilities from this particular loot table
You should not be required to do X number of runs to get "tokens" to exchange for goods
Terrible to add this
Um.... no.... no it's not "fine"
Either you don't run it... or you got your sharpened weapons quicker than most. (I don't care either way and i'm not going to look up your runs, twitch, etc.)
The RNG in this place is a nightmare. No one wants to run the same thing 100 friggin times and STILL not find something they're looking for...
Does this mean you don't use monster sets then? That is almost the exact same token system the OP is suggesting.
Do a dungeon for a key (or two now) hand those in to a certain chest with a reasonable chance at a set piece you want.
Except you can get 6 keys a day... per character... so that token system is WAYYYY better than this vMA token suggestion.
Difference is this is a stupid boring solo instance.0 -
William_21✭✭YesIf you'd like, check my gear collection and you'll see I have all I need for my stam DDs.
And to be honest, I'd rather people not suffer from the anxiety of farming vMA without any sort of guarantee that it's not a waste of time for days, weeks, months even.
No one cares about what you have; their time spent playing is not yours, and there's no reason to vote against the token system unless you just want to see people suffer and go through the endless grind just so you can feel good & proud of your luck.My CharsLegate WilliamThe Flawless Conqueror - Khajiit StamDK - 53.9k DPS(Twice-Born Star, Vicious Ophidian, Kra'gh, x2 Sharpened Maelstrom Daggers, Precise Maelstrom Bow)Vile's SolThe Flawless Conqueror - Redguard StambladeSecond HeartbeatThe Flawless Conqueror - Imperial StamDK Tank(Tavon, Ebon, Bloodspawn)Dark AnnihilatorThe Flawless Conqueror - Khajiit StambladeLachandra RushThe Flawless Conqueror - Redguard StamplarDario LightningclawThe Flawless Conqueror - Khajiit StamsorcStormbringer SyraThe Flawless Conqueror - High Elf MagsorcAuri-El's LightThe Flawless Conqueror - Dark Elf MagplarSaxhleel OracleThe Flawless Conqueror - Argonian Magplar Healer(Spell Power Cure, Infallible Aether, Worm Cult, Precise Maelstrom Restoration Staff)1 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭No
Which category do you fall under?
1. You got lucky and got the best rolls in just a few runs.
2. You can't beat VMA so you don't want others having a better opportunity to obtain sought after weapons?
Neither.kasa-obake wrote: »
Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. Make all traits and items drop with the same probability instead of a single one per bow, resto staff, 2h packed together, and 1h grouped together.
I fail to see the hypocrisy. Please enlighten me.
Why don't you ask to nerf sharpened trait drop rate? Or buff other trait drop rates, if you prefer to call it like that? It's obvious that sharpened drops much more often than others. If you cared about "fairness" and equality of drops, how could you miss that? But do say something about weapons not dropping evenly.
That being said, I agree that the RNG should be fixed. And moreover, I think that useless traits must be removed, because I understand looting them can be frustrated for people that aren't psychically and mentally stable.
However, I'm very much against BiS gear for tokens. It shouldn't be guaranteed and it shouldn't be grinded for. It should be gated by very difficult content and RNG, just not as dumb.
But I have a question for you. How are the supposed to keep the weapons rare? Let's not forget that the whole idea of master weapons was to have something that impacts combat and isn't owned by everyone.
Edited by Artis on December 12, 2016 6:31PM0 -
Meld777✭✭✭✭✭YesBut I have a question for you. How are the supposed to keep the weapons rare? Let's not forget that the whole idea of master weapons was to have something that impacts combat and isn't owned by everyone.
Make the content hard enough. And no, RPers are not gated from it by difficulty. nMA is exactly the same, except for the difficulty and weapons, which are supposed to be rare.
You want vMA weapons to be more rare? Handing them out in awesome traits like candy before Dark Brotherhood was already a bad move then. But let's say we don't want any more people to have them, or keep it to 5 good vMA weapons a day. Turn the difficulty up a notch. I burn through that arena like a hot knife through butter. I don't get to see any mechanics. Just triple all enemies' HP (make it 500% increase for bosses) and increase their damage, so I will have to actually look for mechanics again. Maybe turn it up so high that sigils will become necessary again and that you will have to invest in defensive gear and give up on dps if you want to avoid using sigils. And provide people that are able to complete it with guaranteed good gear. That's how you make things rare and rewarding.
I mean, how many of you even know that the last boss of arena 8 has adds? How many of you know that this boss also has attacks that are exactly like the ones of Titans (360° flame wall, fire ball spit). Wouldn't it be better if that boss had 10x the HP, so that you would actually have to kill the stones 10x instead of one, and deal with adds and mechanics. There's also a 1-shot combo: flame wall + pull and you have to dodge it. How many of you even know it? Probably none, because you never even get there. The boss dies 20 sec after round start. It's a joke.Edited by Meld777 on December 12, 2016 7:03PMMaelstrom Arena Champion | Undaunted | Fighters Guild Victor
Level 50 Magicka NB | CP160+
nAA | vCoH1 HM | nSO | nCoA2 | nDSA | nMA | vVoM
PC EU0 -
ookami007✭✭✭✭✭
✭The only people who voted No are those who got lucky on their first few tries and got the best rolls and weaps.
Actually, I suspect it's more than that. I suspect the people who voted NO are the people who already have them and don't want others having them.
Makes them feel all L33t!0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nokasa-obake wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »kasa-obake wrote: »@kasa-obake
How funny. So some weapons drop more often and you say it's not balanced. But the fact that sharpened trait drops 2 times more often than any other trait doesn't bother you and you say it's "pretty balanced"? So nerf bow/resto, but don't nerf sharpened? The hypocrisy of some people..
Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. Make all traits and items drop with the same probability instead of a single one per bow, resto staff, 2h packed together, and 1h grouped together.
I fail to see the hypocrisy. Please enlighten me.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »kasa-obake wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »kasa-obake wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Geez no.
Honestly the RNG is fine.
... I have kept on running vMSA and taking into account posts from others on forums and in-game, still ignoring double-posts (PC EU). This brings the total of the loot to roughly 1.5k (1,471 to be exact, but 1.5k sounds neater).
Below are the new and updated table and pie charts, because who doesn't love pie charts.
As with my previous graphs here, seems like the trait distribution is pretty balanced. However the item distribution is not, and that reflects with the sheer amount of Bows and Restoration staves that drop.
Again, this seems to confirm what @Alanar was saying a month ago.
Alanar wrote: »
So your chances of getting a specific weapon are:
Bow - 1/6
Restoration Staff - 1/6
Dagger - 1/12
Sword - 1/12
Mace - 1/12
Axe - 1/12
Greatsword - 1/18
Battle Axe - 1/18
Maul - 1/18
Lightning Staff - 1/18
Frost Staff - 1/18
Fire Staff - 1/18
So if you're hunting a sharpened fire staff, you have a 1/18 chance of getting a fire staff at all, and a 1/8 chance of getting sharpened, for a total chance of 1/144 on each drop.
"RNG is fine".
@kasa-obake
Please read other comments instead of quoting me out of context
No harm intended I know but this thread tends to get heated
Check out the last page tho seriously
What are your thoughts on my comments through the thread
The whole point of the rng not being fine is that the probabilities to drop are different. On top of having useless items/traits, as you said, the odds aren't fair. And I'd rather run it 200 times to get tokens to be sure 100% that I will get my vMSA inferno sharpened staff in exchange, than run it 500 times and hop that I will get the 0.006% run when the staff will drop, as it is now.
@kasa-obake
Why you or anyone want to run anything over 100 times?
Not that I have the answer but let's use the graphs...
If it's changed that after each completed run:
1. You can designate the weapon type (not trait)
2. If you can run it solo, with one other and with a third considering #1.
3. Adjust loot tables (removing specific items out)
That's a lot higher probability and there are only 9 possible outcomes each run solo but in groups of two or three, there's possibilities of doing it faster with better outcomes
Even if you're against duo or three person attempts, to me, this is a heck of a lot better than just adding tokens
Tokens aren't going to lessen the amount of runs because it's still random
Making vMSA group content would ruin its whole purpose. And otherwise, I genuinely don't understand what you're saying. I mean, it looks like English, it sounds like it, but it doesn't make sense.
I would rather have a system where 1 run = 1 token, and even important numbers like 200 tokens can be converted into the weapon of our choice. As it stands right now, I have run that *** 223 times without ever getting my desired weapons.
And tokens are the opposite of "random". They are a guarantee that after a certain number of runs you will get the thing you desire and perhaps rightfully deserve. After all my runs and work on it, I do indeed feel entitled as hell.
@kasa-obake
Ok so throwing out the group part...cool
I have to ask why you'd rather be forced to run it "200" times vs increasing the drop %?
That's the part I really don't understand in your comments.
Why do you want to do it even 50+ times in terms of talking about tokens
Because nobody is going to increase the % drop. They do not think it's broken. And some players like @Artis don't think so either.
There's been threads trying to bring ZOS' attention to the useless and rage-inducing loot that only ever brings one Dwemer Frame or 52 gold, and the fact that bows and restoration staves have 6 times more chances do drop than all the other loot, but to no avail.
As a rule, humans are risk-averse. Meaning that, given a greater chance to drop good loot in fewer runs, or a guaranteed certainty to drop it after more runs in exchange for tokens, they will prefer the latter. Especially when they do not trust the odds to begin with, because the company making them stays silent on the matter.
I personally dislike vMSA, but I can see why people chose to run it. It's a challenge, something to do that doesn't require a competent group, and something that you can get better at. Implementing it was a great idea. However they just had to put in all the trash loot and uneven drop rates following their trait overhaul.
Hmm....O K if you say so.
I don't follow the thought or ideas that ZOS would be more willing to offer tokens over adjusting loot tables based upon prior updates where changes were made to loot tables but outside of PvP, no currencies have been added.
Even in the undaunted space they've added guaranteed drops for the helms and simplified the shoulder drops by drastically removing and adjusting things in the loot table.
They even removed less meaningful / multiple keys in place of a simple key and so for others asking why am I so adamant about this.
Other than my opinions about tokens, it's based on what has been done in the past which seems to be also the logic ZOS is using for future updates that we now see in One Tamriel-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
Wizzo91✭✭✭✭✭YesLet me guess.
All the players that voted no are either masochists, got very lucky in their first runs or can't complete vMA
Anyway - it is time for a change! RNG is one of the worst aspects of this beautiful game. Not just vMA, but also vDSA and Weapon Farming in overland/dungeons.[EU]
Wizzo - Stamina DK - 50 - DC
Wizzox - Magicka NB - 50 - DC
Vilest Wizz - Magicka Sorc - 50 - DC
Wiser Wizz - Magicka NB - 50 - DC
Wizzo X - Magicka NB - 50 - AD
In Rainbows - Stam Sorc - 50 - AD
Fake Plastic Tree - Stamplar - 50 - EP
6XX CP2 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NoLet me guess.
All the players that voted no are either masochists, got very lucky in their first runs or can't complete vMA
Anyway - it is time for a change! RNG is one of the worst aspects of this beautiful game. Not just vMA, but also vDSA and Weapon Farming in overland/dungeons.
@Wizzo91
I voted no but it's a no to "tokens" and not a no to changing the loot drops. Not sure about others but just tagging you as to share maybe no means more than the vote may suggest.-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
Wizzo91✭✭✭✭✭YesNewBlacksmurf wrote: »Let me guess.
All the players that voted no are either masochists, got very lucky in their first runs or can't complete vMA
Anyway - it is time for a change! RNG is one of the worst aspects of this beautiful game. Not just vMA, but also vDSA and Weapon Farming in overland/dungeons.
@Wizzo91
I voted no but it's a no to "tokens" and not a no to changing the loot drops. Not sure about others but just tagging you as to share maybe no means more than the vote may suggest.
@NewBlacksmurf
I agree there are other solutions:
- Intelligent Loot (who needs a defending, powered, charged vMA Dagger i.e.)
- Buff other traits to be on par with sharpened
- remove useless traits (training, prosperous)
- remove trait system completely (my preferred solution) and add more unique set bonuses
..but lets be honest here. The traits will never be balanced and ZOS will always argue that a viper lighting staff can be used on your backbar (and some players do, trust me)!
So a Token System is the by far best solution to the broken RNG System. RPers can still "play as they want" and the crowd that cares about numbers is also happy.Edited by Wizzo91 on December 12, 2016 9:34PM[EU]
Wizzo - Stamina DK - 50 - DC
Wizzox - Magicka NB - 50 - DC
Vilest Wizz - Magicka Sorc - 50 - DC
Wiser Wizz - Magicka NB - 50 - DC
Wizzo X - Magicka NB - 50 - AD
In Rainbows - Stam Sorc - 50 - AD
Fake Plastic Tree - Stamplar - 50 - EP
6XX CP0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NoNewBlacksmurf wrote: »Let me guess.
All the players that voted no are either masochists, got very lucky in their first runs or can't complete vMA
Anyway - it is time for a change! RNG is one of the worst aspects of this beautiful game. Not just vMA, but also vDSA and Weapon Farming in overland/dungeons.
@Wizzo91
I voted no but it's a no to "tokens" and not a no to changing the loot drops. Not sure about others but just tagging you as to share maybe no means more than the vote may suggest.
@NewBlacksmurf
I agree there are other solutions:
- Intelligent Loot (who needs a defending, powered, charged vMA Dagger i.e.)
- Buff other traits to be on par with sharpened
- remove useless traits (training, prosperous)
- remove trait system completely (my preferred solution) and add more unique set bonuses
..but lets be honest here. The traits will never be balanced and ZOS will always argue that a viper lighting staff can be used on your backbar (and some players do, trust me)!
So a Token System is the by far best solution to the broken RNG System. RPers can still "play as they want" and the crowd that cares about numbers is also happy.
Interesting.
Well it'll be interesting to see if and how these topics are addressed going forward.-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
covenant_merchant✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes
Which category do you fall under?
1. You got lucky and got the best rolls in just a few runs.
2. You can't beat VMA so you don't want others having a better opportunity to obtain sought after weapons?
Neither.kasa-obake wrote: »
Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. Make all traits and items drop with the same probability instead of a single one per bow, resto staff, 2h packed together, and 1h grouped together.
I fail to see the hypocrisy. Please enlighten me.
Why don't you ask to nerf sharpened trait drop rate? Or buff other trait drop rates, if you prefer to call it like that? It's obvious that sharpened drops much more often than others. If you cared about "fairness" and equality of drops, how could you miss that? But do say something about weapons not dropping evenly.
That being said, I agree that the RNG should be fixed. And moreover, I think that useless traits must be removed, because I understand looting them can be frustrated for people that aren't psychically and mentally stable.
However, I'm very much against BiS gear for tokens. It shouldn't be guaranteed and it shouldn't be grinded for. It should be gated by very difficult content and RNG, just not as dumb.
But I have a question for you. How are the supposed to keep the weapons rare? Let's not forget that the whole idea of master weapons was to have something that impacts combat and isn't owned by everyone.
So what would it be like for "stable" individuals? Would you smile at the sight of yet another Powered destro staff and thank our lord and saviour the RNJesus and ZOS for that wonderful, wonderful reward? And then go back farming the arena with a grin on your lips and a jig in your step?
Getting stupid loot is frustrating for everyone, and your derogatory comments are misplaced.
If it should be gated by "very difficult content", upgrade vMSA's difficulty. It ain't hard or a challenge anymore. And back when it was, the BiS weapons were dropping at every turn so "rare" ain't the word you're looking for.
You're right, it shouldn't be owned by everyone. But it should be owned by good players who have dedicated a lot of time into it. I do not feel any less worthy that a fotm black rose - viper wearing stam dk, and yet I do not have the vMSA staff after 223 runs he lucked out in getting after 1.
I just fail to see your point no matter how hard I try. You seem to be under the delusion that those who have these weapons are somehow better players and more "worthy". That there is some sort of gated community of vMSA BiS weapon owners that are holier than thou. Only it isn't the case. It's based on luck, and given vMSA's current difficulty, any random with proper gear can run it. And if you can't, you can just ask your friends to run it for you.
It's not a testament of skill but that of luck. I would understand it if the weapon traits scaled with your score. Better score - better opportunity to get sharpened. But it isn't the case. Whether you take 5 hours to do that stuff with the saved quest or run it in 40 minutes, the loot drops and chances are the same.Edited by covenant_merchant on December 12, 2016 10:34PM1 -
Meld777✭✭✭✭✭YesOne of the biggest shocks for me was that when DB came out, they actually added the *** traits to the leaderboard rewards. So that even the best vMA runners get an additional "f you" from ZOS every Monday. Before that, a leaderboard position pretty much guaranteed you a usable weapon once a week!Edited by Meld777 on December 12, 2016 10:49PMMaelstrom Arena Champion | Undaunted | Fighters Guild Victor
Level 50 Magicka NB | CP160+
nAA | vCoH1 HM | nSO | nCoA2 | nDSA | nMA | vVoM
PC EU0 -
Lukums1✭✭✭✭Hold on Bear, not to be rude here but you're comment below.
That's a quote from today. People just make stuff up when it comes to the runs they have completed. I have stopped putting any faith in it. ZOS should give us a dungeon counter in our achievements tab so people can prove it.
How do you determine who is credible and who isn't? When it comes to how many runs that someone has done?
I think by now we know who runs Maelstrom religiously and who doesn't.
Not that I really care for that statement I really don't think you know me that well to make that comment.
Sorry if that sounded a little rude or harsh, just like being direct.
Edited by Lukums1 on December 12, 2016 11:01PMPS4 Yellow Scum Dominion
1600+ vMA runs and counting
Magicka Sorc - Flawless - 544k Score
Stam Sorc - Flawless - 559k Score
Stam DK - FLAWLESS 512k Score
Stam NB - 492k Score - Work in progress
Magicka Temp - 482k Score
The Ozmeric Dominion (Oceanic) Australian Based Guild
vMA "guru" - VHRC - vSO - vSOHM - vDSA - vAA - vMOL
The Maelstrom BIBLE for beginners/Flawless Achieve Below
https://www.twitch.tv/lukumms/v/111730700
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/181142505
You have vMA questions? Want a guide? Helping hand? PM me!
Returns after 6 months back to back flawless
https://go.twitch.tv/videos/1803846481 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoBlackfyre20 wrote: »
Someone got their sharpened vMA 2h on their first run...
Someone probably did. That's the nature of RNG. Either way, you DON'T NEED it. And you aren't supposed to get everything you want just because you want it. You have equal chances to get any type of weapons including the type you want. But being picky and only hunting for 1 trait and calling everything useless? The entitlement of some people just puzzles me.Make the content hard enough. And no, RPers are not gated from it by difficulty. nMA is exactly the same, except for the difficulty and weapons, which are supposed to be rare.
You want vMA weapons to be more rare? Handing them out in awesome traits like candy before Dark Brotherhood was already a bad move then. But let's say we don't want any more people to have them, or keep it to 5 good vMA weapons a day. Turn the difficulty up a notch. I burn through that arena like a hot knife through butter. I don't get to see any mechanics. Just triple all enemies' HP (make it 500% increase for bosses) and increase their damage, so I will have to actually look for mechanics again. Maybe turn it up so high that sigils will become necessary again and that you will have to invest in defensive gear and give up on dps if you want to avoid using sigils. And provide people that are able to complete it with guaranteed good gear. That's how you make things rare and rewarding.
I mean, how many of you even know that the last boss of arena 8 has adds? How many of you know that this boss also has attacks that are exactly like the ones of Titans (360° flame wall, fire ball spit). Wouldn't it be better if that boss had 10x the HP, so that you would actually have to kill the stones 10x instead of one, and deal with adds and mechanics. There's also a 1-shot combo: flame wall + pull and you have to dodge it. How many of you even know it? Probably none, because you never even get there. The boss dies 20 sec after round start. It's a joke.
Yes they will be gated then. If only 10% of players are capable of even clearing the content, then there will be so much whine .. all those "you don't cater to the majority", "I pay money I want a weapon too" etc. The current system means more players can get those weapons, and go ahead and try to prove that it's worse than a system that guarantees a weapon to the minority of players.
And maybe most players do know about those combos? You can't assume no one does just because your dps is high. Mine isn't. I can't burn that boss 100-0%. And my DPS is not the worst among magicka NBs. I'm pretty average in numbers so I'm sure other magblades see the adds. Not all of them of course.kasa-obake wrote: »
Which category do you fall under?
1. You got lucky and got the best rolls in just a few runs.
2. You can't beat VMA so you don't want others having a better opportunity to obtain sought after weapons?
Neither.kasa-obake wrote: »
Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. Make all traits and items drop with the same probability instead of a single one per bow, resto staff, 2h packed together, and 1h grouped together.
I fail to see the hypocrisy. Please enlighten me.
Why don't you ask to nerf sharpened trait drop rate? Or buff other trait drop rates, if you prefer to call it like that? It's obvious that sharpened drops much more often than others. If you cared about "fairness" and equality of drops, how could you miss that? But do say something about weapons not dropping evenly.
That being said, I agree that the RNG should be fixed. And moreover, I think that useless traits must be removed, because I understand looting them can be frustrated for people that aren't psychically and mentally stable.
However, I'm very much against BiS gear for tokens. It shouldn't be guaranteed and it shouldn't be grinded for. It should be gated by very difficult content and RNG, just not as dumb.
But I have a question for you. How are the supposed to keep the weapons rare? Let's not forget that the whole idea of master weapons was to have something that impacts combat and isn't owned by everyone.
So what would it be like for "stable" individuals? Would you smile at the sight of yet another Powered destro staff and thank our lord and saviour the RNJesus and ZOS for that wonderful, wonderful reward? And then go back farming the arena with a grin on your lips and a jig in your step?
Getting stupid loot is frustrating for everyone, and your derogatory comments are misplaced.
If it should be gated by "very difficult content", upgrade vMSA's difficulty. It ain't hard or a challenge anymore. And back when it was, the BiS weapons were dropping at every turn so "rare" ain't the word you're looking for.
You're right, it shouldn't be owned by everyone. But it should be owned by good players who have dedicated a lot of time into it. I do not feel any less worthy that a fotm black rose - viper wearing stam dk, and yet I do not have the vMSA staff after 223 runs he lucked out in getting after 1.
I just fail to see your point no matter how hard I try. You seem to be under the delusion that those who have these weapons are somehow better players and more "worthy". That there is some sort of gated community of vMSA BiS weapon owners that are holier than thou. Only it isn't the case. It's based on luck, and given vMSA's current difficulty, any random with proper gear can run it. And if you can't, you can just ask your friends to run it for you.
It's not a testament of skill but that of luck. I would understand it if the weapon traits scaled with your score. Better score - better opportunity to get sharpened. But it isn't the case. Whether you take 5 hours to do that stuff with the saved quest or run it in 40 minutes, the loot drops and chances are the same.
Yes exactly. I would smile and decon. And no, I would never farm the arena. I'd go there because it's fun. When it stopped being fun or I got distracted by other aspects/places of the game, then I'd stop going there. Once again - you are not supposed to farm it. You should play content for fun and not count on any loot. ZOS are trying to teach you that since release.
It shouldnt' be owned by everyone, but everyone should have a chance to own it. It shouldn't be guaranteed to you just because you are a good player. Then it would make strong players even stronger and weak players would have no chance to catch up. If you make it harder, then most players won't even have a chance. Please explain, how is it better for a game for the minority to be guaranteed an item, then for the majority to have a shot at getting it?
No, I dont' say the players who have it a more worthy, wtf? Don't put words in my mouth. It is based on luck, that's the whole point! It's like, if you really lived in that world, wow you were lucky to find a rare weapon that almost no one has. No matter how good you are, you just were lucky to walk into a right cave. That's way more realistic. Wut? Haven't you ever read a book or watched a movie or something? Bilbo didn't get the Sting because he "deserved" it and farmed for it.
Why is any particular person supposed to be guaranteed to get that weapon at all? You seem to be under the delusion that anyone "deserves" or "earns" anything in a game. And that "good" players are more "worthy" and deserve something just because they are good. I fail to see this point no matter how hard I try. If people wanted that crap, they'd spend this time IRL, actually working and earning higher salaries.0
