A proposal for a more strategic crouch [Crouch stealth nerf/anti zerg]

Perwulf

Special mention for ADs since they had the largest player base in PvP and literally just zerg crouches no matter what the circumstance is but yeah it's a game mechanic but i think it's time to take a look of its downside.

• With a huge zerg group at disposal it's easy to swarm a players/keep but instead people still prefers stealth before attacking. I propose that crouching near each other should have increased detection radius per player in a radius of a player that chains around until it hits the increased detection radius cap but don't fret because a concept like this won't ruin PvP crouch, instead it will motivate people to think even more strategically than just zerg around.

Sample A: Large Group

• To avoid the zerg crouch debuff players must ride separately and meet at a rendezvous point instead of just charging in a keep for a surprise attack while crouching all together, after splitting the large group into 2s or 3s the captain then will set a rendezvous point and that's when they'll execute the surprise attack.

Sample B: Solo

• We've seen players running solo and just crouch along side a group while it awaits for its prey, it's a pretty cheap move i'd say. With zerg crouch debuffs instead of just tagging along and waiting for a prey, the solo player will instead find a more strategic position at the same time avoiding a bigger enemy group who might be crouching as well because with the help of zcd the player can see the large group from far away before they do thus avoid it instead of walking into the swarm unwillingly.

Sample C: Gankers

• Now this is the annoying part when gankers comes in 2s or 3s or even more. Instead of waiting to jump to your prey easily these gankers will instead need to spread out to avoid the increased detection radius thus does not alert its prey from far away, this will introduced a more strategic approach.

Penalty should also be deducted depending on class [Skill line mobility]

Descending order:

• Nightblade
• Sorcerer
• Dragon Knight
• Templar

TL:DR This will balance a smaller group vs a larger group/solo vs a large group.

Taylor_MB

Crouching zergs are a problem?

arkansas_ESO

Just remove the ability to go into crouch at all if you're in a group that exceeds 8 members.

Perwulf

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Crouching zergs are a problem?

It is indeed a problem without population limit/balancing, 3 bars literally stomps 1-2 bar factions. Crouching is a bonus for a more killing blow & surprise element.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Just remove the ability to go into crouch at all if you're in a group that exceeds 8 members.

Would agree but it will make a lot of people cry.

Erondil

Make crouch consume stamina even when not moving, to begin with.

kevlarto_ESO

The do have detect pots, I have watched some good bombers jump into a group of crouched players an kill most of them, maybe we should use the tools already in game before changing the code. On pc by the way EP is the largest population of players, this straight from Lambert in a past ESO live, things could have changed if it did not by much.

Delsskia

Crouch has some problems, but the fact that it's available to everyone is not one of them. Stealth is an integral part of the game, whether it's large or small groups in pve or pvp. In a game full of bugs and broken mechanics that have needed to be addressed for ages, this is just a non issue. The game does provide ways to reveal folks in stealth, as Kevlarto_ESO said, there's no need to change the code for that.

Personally, if any change is made, I'd much rather see Crouch use a 4th stat. As a MagPlar, it gets really old really fast when I can't defend myself with dodge roll, break free, block or sprint because I've used up my precious little Stamina pool being in stealth.

Robbmrp

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Crouching zergs are a problem?

I was wondering this myself....wouldn't they be easier to run away from? With Rapids out of crouch you can run alot faster than while crouched in stealth.....maybe that pebble stopped them from getting away....

joe.smith21b14_ESO

Robbmrp wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Crouching zergs are a problem?

I was wondering this myself....wouldn't they be easier to run away from? With Rapids out of crouch you can run alot faster than while crouched in stealth.....maybe that pebble stopped them from getting away....

Unless your name is smiff no one can outrun smiff.

glavius

More calculations for already overloaded server. Thx but no thx

jhharvest

I think crouching should make your nameplate disappear and your character model fade, not make you invisible. You could still use stealth tactically with LOS but it would require some actual player skill.

Daggerfall_Bones

Never considered this but not a bad idea. I'm usually in big groups and crouch but would not be opposed to some of the suggestions. Just makes sense. I wouldn't want solo crouch gone though. Interesting idea.

Soris

I would say completely remove crouch stealth in the open. So it would work like that the eye will never go "HIDDEN" if you are in a open area. It would only go "HIDDEN" if you are near some structure/tree/rock.

Sheuib

I think this is a bad idea. a surprise attack from stealth is necessary for a group of 12 to take out a group of 24. But, you want that group of 12 to not be able to hide.

And, a definite no to the idea of detection based on class. No reason for your mageblade bomber to have any more advantage over my stamsorc woodelf.

MLRPZ

Delete sneak from game, except for cloack and vanish pots. gg win game

Perwulf

Sheuib wrote: »

I think this is a bad idea. a surprise attack from stealth is necessary for a group of 12 to take out a group of 24. But, you want that group of 12 to not be able to hide.

And, a definite no to the idea of detection based on class. No reason for your mageblade bomber to have any more advantage over my stamsorc woodelf.

I proposed a balance for smaller group vs bigger group not the other way around, just the group of 24 had smaller advantages and can be outsmarted easily by the 12 because of stealth detection radius penalty. Now imagine the group of 24 scattered because they're trying to reduce the detection penalty, a wise idea? no since the group of 12 had smaller penalty and they already have the advantages of surprise attack the moment the 24 group decided to scatter. Now what if it's the other way around? what if the 24 group chose to zerg instead of reducing the stealth penalty? with them zerging and in a smaller area the penalty is fatal thus the enemy from extended meters away can detect them easily while they on the other hand still can't see the enemy because the enemy had a smaller group, with range at hand they can choose to focus all they fire power onto one target then run away going back to crouch stealth while rinsing them one by one evening the odds. Also i do believe that detection penalty need to be varied by class, imagine the advantages of a lone Nightblade with this mechanics, an easy picking one by one or in short an alpha predator.

Additionally to those who don't agree, there is an alternative method to nerf crouch but obviously removing it is unwise, so why not just remove the guaranteed critical strike and stun?

DeanTheCat

If you really want to institute a penalty on sneak, doing it the way you suggested will only create massive amounts of extra calculations on the server, leading to even more lag.

A better way would be to make sneak cost a flat amount of stamina per second even when not moving, and to update the medium armour passive "Improved Sneak" to reduce the drain on the stamina pool.

Example (Numbers for illustration only) :

Sneak now costs 1400 stamina per second to maintain. 
Improved Sneak passive reduces the cost of sneak drain by 7.1/14.3% per piece of medium armour equipped. 

For a combatant wearing a 5-1-1 setup with the 5 being medium, sneak will cost 400 stamina per second to maintain. 

For a combatant wearing a 5-1-1 setup with the 5 being anything but medium, sneak will cost 1200 stamina to maintain 

For a combatant wearing 7-0-0 setup in medium, sneak will functionally be the same as currently due to the drain being entirely negated. 

The reasoning behind such a change is that sneaking is a physically demanding activity, and as such someone who is physically fit would be able to maintain sneak longer. In addition, the tight fit and low air resistance of medium armour allows for easier movement in stealth compared to heavy plate or robes that rustle and encumber your dexterity.

Recremen

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

The do have detect pots, I have watched some good bombers jump into a group of crouched players an kill most of them, maybe we should use the tools already in game before changing the code. On pc by the way EP is the largest population of players, this straight from Lambert in a past ESO live, things could have changed if it did not by much.

Pretty much this. Running around without detection is like running around without healing and then asking to nerf damage. ;-)