Official Discussion Thread for Weapon Ultimates

RoyJade

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

The fire staff really got me.
Burning provides atleast 1k per tick - and it applied to everything in the AoE - even through AoE caps. Now it is removed for a measily 10% more tooltip damage. What a nerf.

Lightning Staff?
Concussed is basically a minor maim (damage reduction) and that has been removed for a 2 second additional duration #NerfedLikeLightningHeavyAttack.

Frost Staff...
Chilled from 2.6.0 + Wall of Elements does the exact same thing it does now. - Except chilled causes additional damage. Nerfed...

You forgot an important point : 2.6.0 fire rage applied burning and already has a 10% increase, it's a pure nerf (one effect removed), and 2.6.0 thunder rage applied concussed and already has a 2 second increased time, it's also a pure nerf. Only the frost rage get something in exchange of the 100% chilled effect...

The-Baconator

Even as someone who will never really be able to use the ult (I am a sorc therefore a negate monkey) it looks WAY more interesting from a pvp perspective at least. Yes the dps is the same, but I'll take an 8k\sec for 5 sec over 4k\sec for 10 sec EVERY SINGLE TIME. With a +10 second duration your wasting a great deal of time as in most AoE fights its simply hit the enemy and wipe them, pull off to try again, or get wiped. You just don't really stand around for 10 seconds dealing AoE damage and even if you find yourself in a situation where standing around spamming AoE in one spot is possible, I would argue half the duration with the same damage would still be preferable. Of course there's still the issue of the destro being completely useless as a whole for anyone that gets either a class AoE\single target spammable of their own, but this change has defiantly laid the groundwork for future changes to make destro competitive with just slapping on dw and spamming your class AoE.

Joy_Division

The-Baconator wrote: »

Even as someone who will never really be able to use the ult (I am a sorc therefore a negate monkey) it looks WAY more interesting from a pvp perspective at least. Yes the dps is the same, but I'll take an 8k\sec for 5 sec over 4k\sec for 10 sec EVERY SINGLE TIME. With a +10 second duration your wasting a great deal of time as in most AoE fights its simply hit the enemy and wipe them, pull off to try again, or get wiped. You just don't really stand around for 10 seconds dealing AoE damage and even if you find yourself in a situation where standing around spamming AoE in one spot is possible, I would argue half the duration with the same damage would still be preferable. Of course there's still the issue of the destro being completely useless as a whole for anyone that gets either a class AoE\single target spammable of their own, but this change has defiantly laid the groundwork for future changes to make destro competitive with just slapping on dw and spamming your class AoE.

The intent of giving it more burst was correct. Wrobel seems to be under the impression that the total damage done by the ultimate is acceptable and it's fine that the ultimate does not have a good secondary function. That's the problem

I mean, as you said, you will always use a different ultimate that is stronger and cheaper. That should be a huge clue to him that it ain't good enough, but all the devs do is play stam so they don't have a clue of how magicka plays.

And considering the resto ultimate was not changed, it 1000% clear that none of the devs play a healer.

BdCHighVoltage

won't ice rage be a confirmed kill in PvP?

i mean, if someone goes inside it's immobilized (i imagine like frost clench) without the possibility to "break free", enemies will take all the damage

Lord_Eomer

No body want to use destro in PVP except may be sorcerers (do not have any good spam DPS skill)

Give a good reason, why mages should throw away Dual Wield or Restro Staff for Destro? In pvp

Believe us this ultimate not worth at all, Metror is still best for PVE and PVP.

I will never use Destro Ultimate for PVP or PVE, better ultimates are already available at lower cost i.e. Metror (this even gives 2% max magicka and recovery). Soul assault may be better now, will check if can use or not but clearly Destro or Restro Ultimate have no chance.

I am disappointed, Magicka Weapon Ultimates are ulseless so far and stamina ultimates are very good.

Dracane

BdCHighVoltage wrote: »

won't ice rage be a confirmed kill in PvP?

i mean, if someone goes inside it's immobilized (i imagine like frost clench) without the possibility to "break free", enemies will take all the damage

Except that nobody will ever get hit by it, as it has a 2 second build up time. Everyone will be gone at this point
Elemental rage is a no brainer in pvp. Eye of the storm is the only chance and it has no secondary effects.

Darlon

Did a small test (will do a bit more later, on more different targets and situations).

Target: Giant in wrothgar
Character: template magicka sorc, no monster set (only 1 piece, didn't want any procs))
Skills used: Power surge (for spell damage buff) + ultimate (shooting star and Fiery rage)

Made the screenshot after the ultimate was finished. I think I was a second to late with meteor.

1. Shooting star: slightly more damage over a bit longer duration, smaller AoE area.



2. Fiery rage: Damage is a lot closer to shooting star after 2.6.1. Damage is done in a shorter timespan.



So this update was definitely an imrovement (difference was between skills was about 40k before the patch). Still meteor is cheaper (200 vs 250, 170 vs 213 for a sorc) and has better utility (bonus magicka when slotted etc). Destro ultimate is not quite there yet

shrb

Now that the 100% chance has been removed from the morph, it's time to put it on the main skill.

Cost is still high for what it is, knocking 1s of the build up from ranged morph and reducing cost of the Pbaoe one by 50 or so, should be good.

Carbonised

Dracane wrote: »

BdCHighVoltage wrote: »

won't ice rage be a confirmed kill in PvP?

i mean, if someone goes inside it's immobilized (i imagine like frost clench) without the possibility to "break free", enemies will take all the damage

Except that nobody will ever get hit by it, as it has a 2 second build up time. Everyone will be gone at this point
Elemental rage is a no brainer in pvp. Eye of the storm is the only chance and it has no secondary effects.

Not to mention that you can still roll dodge out of an immobilize. Lolz stamina.

Which begs the question, who exactly did Wrobel design these ults for? Elemental storm hits for less damage than both Banner and Meteor. And both Banner and Meteor have a large number of secondary effects. Elemental has none. So basically you either get a poor man's banner or less damage than meteor for more ult cost. Who in their right mind would even slot this in PvE?

The only morph that makes sense in PvP is Eye, then you get even less damage, meaning that meteor will ourperform it damwise by a large margin, not even talking about CC, secondary effects, cheaper ult cost, ult return, more burst potential and range.
Just how many light armor staff users chase after their stam opponents in close combat, hm? Why even bother making a destro staff ult if you're making it melee oriented. Do you not know that every mag build gets owned in melee by stam in 2 sec combos? With a 2 sec build up and a dot effect, every decent stam build can take down your pajamas stick wielding magicka character even before the ult even goes off.
Sure, dress up in heavy armor and sword and shield, like 90 % of magicka builds already do in Cyrodiil to even have a fighting chance, but lolz then you're not able to use the ult any more (and your dam would stink anyway).

So again, who is this ultimate for? Less damage than other ults for higher cost makes it utterly redundant and outperformed in PvE, lack of utility as well as great melee risk and slow build up doesn't make this desirable at all in PvP either.

The-Baconator

Joy_Division wrote: »

The-Baconator wrote: »

Even as someone who will never really be able to use the ult (I am a sorc therefore a negate monkey) it looks WAY more interesting from a pvp perspective at least. Yes the dps is the same, but I'll take an 8k\sec for 5 sec over 4k\sec for 10 sec EVERY SINGLE TIME. With a +10 second duration your wasting a great deal of time as in most AoE fights its simply hit the enemy and wipe them, pull off to try again, or get wiped. You just don't really stand around for 10 seconds dealing AoE damage and even if you find yourself in a situation where standing around spamming AoE in one spot is possible, I would argue half the duration with the same damage would still be preferable. Of course there's still the issue of the destro being completely useless as a whole for anyone that gets either a class AoE\single target spammable of their own, but this change has defiantly laid the groundwork for future changes to make destro competitive with just slapping on dw and spamming your class AoE.

The intent of giving it more burst was correct. Wrobel seems to be under the impression that the total damage done by the ultimate is acceptable and it's fine that the ultimate does not have a good secondary function. That's the problem

I mean, as you said, you will always use a different ultimate that is stronger and cheaper. That should be a huge clue to him that it ain't good enough, but all the devs do is play stam so they don't have a clue of how magicka plays.

And considering the resto ultimate was not changed, it 1000% clear that none of the devs play a healer.

The thing is though if I was a magicka nb dd in group I would probably at least consider (in theory) back barring a destro as opposed to a resto because of this change, I just could never do that as a sorc because negate is literally 10x more OP than any other ultimate in the game right now and they'd have to make this ultimate be absolutely broken OP before I could consider replacing it. My main issue with the ult at this point is literally how terrible the weapon line itself is rather than the ult. As it stands right now impulse is absolutely garbage and no one is loosing hundreds of spell damage just so they can main bar this ultimate and spam their class AoE. Not to even mention the fact that the way 90% of the population plays wouldn't allow for giving up a great deal of back bar utility for the ult, no matter how good it is.

Of course I wouldn't be opposed to a reduction to the cost--probably to 200--but if the damage is now double that of bats I don't see much more they could do to keep the ultimate from being absolutely ridiculous (in PvP at least). That hardly demands some sort of OP secondary function like negate to be competitive. I agree in its current form it won't get much use regardless, but that's because 95% of builds avoid destro like the plague and the other 5% use them simply because they have too.

Tyrion87

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Well, here is my impressions regarding destro ulti, after your recent "buff" with 2.6.1. patch. For sure this "buff" is not "significant" as Wrobel mentioned and a skill is still luckluster which has no useful functions and will not be used at all... It is really weak compared to the other options magicka has already (and no, I'm not asking for a meteor nerf so as the destro ulti would look more attractive....) and definitely there is nothing which would persuade me to slot elem storm over other currently available mag-based ultis. So...

Are there any Weapon Ultimates that you’d like to see more powerful? Which one, and what would you like to see changed?

It is obvious - destro staff ultimate. It's by far the weakest one among all other weapon ultimates which is surprising considering the current imbalance between magicka and stamina. Being the only magicka-focused DPS weapon ultimate, it should be otherwise.

My proposition is to reduce the cost to 180-200 and to add the initial very high AOE damage, followed by some DOT. Unmorphed skill should also apply the elemental effect/status based on the staff - in its current state there are no differences between the elements other than color!!! Morphs would add the following:
Rage: adds some utility based on the element, pretty much the same as it is now with: fire -> more dmg/knockdown, ice -> freeze/smaller cost, shock -> longer duration/stun. But add these utilities ALONG with applying elemental statuses, not instead of them! We should FEEL the differences while using different staves as it is the only magicka-focused weapon ultimate. Let's feel like we would use different weapons!!!
Eye: you cast it on yourself, not on a targeted location (for PvP purposes - there is no cast time, no telegraph, the skill is instant). Elemental statuses are still here.

Yet, the above is very similar to meteor. That's why another good option (or maybe even better, at least more desirable) would be to completely revamp this skill and change it to burst dmg single target skill, followed by a short (maybe 2-3 sec) but uninterraptable (no break free, no dodge, no block) hard CC (one morph - I find it more useful in PvP) or DOT (second morph - for PvE). In this case the cost should be obviously lower, maybe 100-120. Each element could give similar bonuses as the staff currently provides (fire -> even more dmg, ice -> gives dmg shield, shock -> adds some AOE dmg to nearby enemies). Morphs could give some useful buffs like minor force/berserk/maim, or major ones but for a shorter duration.

Third option - and for me the best one - would be to make an ulti absolutely different for each type of staff. E.g. flame ulti would be a high AOE dmg, frost - AOE DOT (similar to the current one), lighting - burst single target dmg. All of them with different utilities like magicka return for each target hit, auto-applying dmg shields etc. And of course with reduced cost compared to the current one.

Summing up, and quoting Mr @Wrobel : magicka classes want firing off something in the middle of combat to feel awesome.

You have so many possibilities ZOS to let us feel awesome with the new destro staff ulti, and you chose the worst one...

Are you considering using any of these new Ultimates in place of your current Ultimate? If so, why?

And this is the most important question. As a magicka sorcerer, the destro staff ultimate, in its current state, is not attractive to me in any way. And there is no way that this ultimate will replace my beloved Overload. Even for my second bar I will stick to meteor cause it provides more magicka while slotted (Mages Guild passive). And if I want to use some AOE ultimate instead of Overload, I still prefer meteor over destro ulti cause it's obviously better in each aspect (dmg, CC, cost). Unless the destro ulti is changed as described above...

Do you have any other general feedback?

As many have stated here before, 2H ulti is way too OP. It should be addressed before hitting live. I'm surprised that it even made it to PTS cause it ridiculously favors stamina over magicka, deepening the imbalance even more. And I'm shocked that you did nothing with this ulti in 2.6.1. patch...

There have been already given many arguments regarding the above issues, in this official thread and many others.
EspecialIy I recommend these ones:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/289892/after-nearly-two-years-its-about-time-to-change-staff-mechanics/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/289386/any-eta-massive-imbalances/p1

It's high time to do something ZOS with the balance. And from what you're doing right now I don't know whether you are even aware of the problem. And Weapon Ultimates could be the first good opportunity to make a step in right direction.

Dracane

Darlon wrote: »

Did a small test (will do a bit more later, on more different targets and situations).

Target: Giant in wrothgar
Character: template magicka sorc, no monster set (only 1 piece, didn't want any procs))
Skills used: Power surge (for spell damage buff) + ultimate (shooting star and Fiery rage)

Made the screenshot after the ultimate was finished. I think I was a second to late with meteor.

1. Shooting star: slightly more damage over a bit longer duration, smaller AoE area.



2. Fiery rage: Damage is a lot closer to shooting star after 2.6.1. Damage is done in a shorter timespan.



So this update was definitely an imrovement (difference was between skills was about 40k before the patch). Still meteor is cheaper (200 vs 250, 170 vs 213 for a sorc) and has better utility (bonus magicka when slotted etc). Destro ultimate is not quite there yet

Fiery rage critted more than meteor. So it would be more like 90k or less for fiery rage. And this is only if you let yourself force into a fire staff. Lightning staff and frost staff would result in even lower numbers.
Also, it costs much more and meteor can restore up to 66 ultimate under perfect conditions. Meteor stuns and adds 2% magicka and regen.

It's not even a contest. Meteor would even be better, if elemental storm dealt the same damage. Because meteor costs so much less and has other benefits.
Please, don't turn into a merchant who sells rocks as gold again

Darlon

Only saying (and showing) it is an improvement over the previous patch

Personally I would choose meteor every single time. Except when I would be goofing around with friends in dungeons etc (cause I like the looks)

Dracane

Darlon wrote: »

Only saying (and showing) it is an improvement over the previous patch

Personally I would choose meteor every single time. Except when I would be goofing around with friends in dungeons etc (cause I like the looks)

Don't ecourage them to leave elemental storm in its bad state

Darlon

Noooo, I want it to be better, my hopes are not that high though

STEVIL

@Carbonised

"So basically you either get a poor man's banner or less damage than meteor for more ult cost. Who in their right mind would
even slot this in PvE?"

Well, for me a few things still play out.

First i agree with much of the dissatisfaction with the DESTRO ults.

Second, i too will take 2xDAM over 5 than 1xDAM over 10 in most casaes unless there is a second ongoing effect i find useful. I am imagining here a templar using FROST to pin down enemies while they jabby-jabby-jabby the imobilized if the Cc keeps refreshing.

Third, i still come back to the fact that there is a design problem - catch 22 - at play. If you try and make this ULT only about damage, you wind up making it "the best" or "the useless" depending on how it compares to the meteor and swarms and novas out there already.

There are plenty of damaging ults out there so we dont need another flavor of the sack of damage ult.

My prior suggestion still holds.

Since one of the features of destro staff is MAGICA RETURN (hvy attack and master passives) make it a small sack of damage (take the one now in 2.6.1 revised) and add the following.

ADD TO BASE POWER and morphs:
Restore 5% of your magic max per second for the 2 seconds build and the 6 second run. (Scale up thru ranks 1-4 from 2% to 5% this adds up to 40% return over the 8 secs.)

ADD TO RAGE: When slotted, double gain from destruction magica return passive.

ADD TO EYE: The mobility it has might be enough of a bonus.

I see this as primarily a magica refresh power, enabling you to throw this and get back in the fight after burning tons of magica. it helps your overall performance while itself doing a little damage.

if i have 30k magica max (low yeah) i regain 1500 every sec for 8 secs in addition to the damage done and the special element effects. thats about 12k. So i basically converted 250 ult into 12k magica which aint a bad thing if my base build is functional without depending on this ult to get the dps done.

Lots of other ways to do this but I think if the ult were geared towards the "small sack of hurt" and "big sack of gains" notion it would be able to work, be unique and so forth.

I think the passives of destro staff are the places to look.

hell, i would even be ok with the following simple design:

take the current 2.6.1 6 sec version.

Add to base power and morphs:
When slotted all passives from the destro skill tree are doubled.
When active, this changes to trippled (includes 2sec build time as active.)

(yeah youi gotts finesse "doubled" and "tripled" but hey its a start of an idea to make it unique and not just a different flavor of "sack of damage" ult.)

SwaminoNowlino

@STEVIL has a good point.

Alternatively, they could also make it like the magicka version of flawless dawnbreaker in that it increases ALL magic damage by a percentage (not just the element your current staff is). This number could be tweaked and almost instantly solve the magicka vs stamina imbalance. The mechanic is already in the game and would make it incredibly useful and would be simple to implement.

Didn't read through all 22 pages of this so if someone else said this sorry!

Edit - I actually like my idea (surprise) when you take into account the presence of meteor and batswarm. If you want a big utility ult, you can use batswarm, if you want burst then you have meteor, but if you want an overall sustained damage you have the destro ulti which gives you the passive damage boost just for having it on bar. This would lead to a lot of diversity I think, depending on what you desire to do in game. I didn't count soul assault because I think its still a joke, do not like the changes to this ability at all. Seems like a panicked reaction that maybe wasn't thought out fully. (Not bashing anyone here, just a general statement. Wrobel has a lot on his plate, too much in my opinion for only one person).

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO

I actually think they need to have two devs doing the skills - one for stam and one for magicka. Maybe they could then have better balance in game.

shrb

Has anyone found any use for the Resto one?

Thraben

shrb wrote: »

Has anyone found any use for the Resto one?

Self- Healing and Stamina restoration tool for dragonknight tanks. There are better alternatives, though.

Iselin

The destro ultimate, other than the Eye of the Storm morph for melee types, just seems like a more expensive and lesser version of Meteor lacking the CC component.

If you want to leave it as an AOE ultimate and differentiate it from Meteor a bit more you could always make it a vortex instead of a storm that sucks nearby players into it - that'd be worth the extra 50 ultimate,

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO

So is destro ulti going to stay as it is now or will it be redone/improved as it terrible right now.

Dracane

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO wrote: »

So is destro ulti going to stay as it is now or will it be redone/improved as it terrible right now.

It is not worth it, until it doesn't have the same cost as most other weapon ults.
It's not stronger than any of them, just 2-2,5 times as expensive. No matter what they do with the damage or duration, this cost is what bothers me and most people as it seems.

shrb

Dracane wrote: »

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO wrote: »

So is destro ulti going to stay as it is now or will it be redone/improved as it terrible right now.

It is not worth it, until it doesn't have the same cost as most other weapon ults.
It's not stronger than any of them, just 2-2,5 times as expensive. No matter what they do with the damage or duration, this cost is what bothers me and most people as it seems.

It's an ult that only does damage.
So:
It can either over perform or under perform.

If you give it enough damage to satisfy the 250 cost, then it should do way more damage than any other ultimate.
If it would do straight up that much damage it would insta replace other ults for pve
So, they chose to not give it the damage
So, all other ults are better since they get "free" utility tacked on

Rykmaar

I disagree completely with the vision for this ultimate.

At 250 cost and with what we have, it is worse than meteor and will not be used over it.

Giving it another tick is not what many here wanted.

Unfortunately, ZoS' vision for magicka ultimate choice is giving us the choice to never slot that ultimate.

Joy_Division

It was nice for the combat team to take into account one of the rare times there is something approaching a discernible majority opinion on these forums.

[sarcasm]So glad folks are downloading the PTS and using it to help the devs update and improve this game[/sarcasm]

andryuhav

shrb wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO wrote: »

So is destro ulti going to stay as it is now or will it be redone/improved as it terrible right now.

It is not worth it, until it doesn't have the same cost as most other weapon ults.
It's not stronger than any of them, just 2-2,5 times as expensive. No matter what they do with the damage or duration, this cost is what bothers me and most people as it seems.

It's an ult that only does damage.
So:
It can either over perform or under perform.

If you give it enough damage to satisfy the 250 cost, then it should do way more damage than any other ultimate.
If it would do straight up that much damage it would insta replace other ults for pve
So, they chose to not give it the damage
So, all other ults are better since they get "free" utility tacked on

It actually has a very cool utility, it the magnificent and powerful...
*
*
*
*
*
*
wait for it
*
*
*
*
*
Magicka return on a kill - BOOM!
There you go, a killer feature!

Darlon

@Wrobel , @ZOS_GinaBruno

Why is ZOS so adamant about the high cost for the destro ultimate? .. it does not make any sense. Other ultimates are cheaper and are better (passive magicka increase and ultimate return for meteor for instance while doing roughly the same damage).

Make up your minds please...

I_killed_Vivec

shrb wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO wrote: »

So is destro ulti going to stay as it is now or will it be redone/improved as it terrible right now.

It is not worth it, until it doesn't have the same cost as most other weapon ults.
It's not stronger than any of them, just 2-2,5 times as expensive. No matter what they do with the damage or duration, this cost is what bothers me and most people as it seems.

It's an ult that only does damage.
So:
It can either over perform or under perform.

If you give it enough damage to satisfy the 250 cost, then it should do way more damage than any other ultimate.
If it would do straight up that much damage it would insta replace other ults for pve
So, they chose to not give it the damage
So, all other ults are better since they get "free" utility tacked on

It wouldn't insta replace all other ultimates for PvE because it is constrained to destro staff users. You are already forced into making that choice, so it really should be better than meteor, which is available to anyone no matter what weapon they use.

PS4_ZeColmeia

I don't understand why the least used weapon of all, destro, has the worst ultimate. The 2s wind up is ridiculous. Seriously 2h is better in every way without considering the windup...

Base skill needs to return resources, all of them, on each death. While it's wind up is still horrible, that at least makes the additional morphs much more enticing

As for the 2h ultimate itself, I don't use 2h so I'm not gonnna comment outside of the destro comparison.