Official Discussion Thread for Weapon Ultimates

susmitds

susmitds wrote: »

I have been testing the 2H Ultimate, Berserker Strike and its morphs in PTS.

Here are the results -

Stats
Weapon Damage : 4301
Stamina : 33912
CP : 561 (100 in mighty, 70 in precise strikes)
Mundus : Shadow
Tooltip : 16346 damage

Test 1: *3237* blocked
Test 2: 13390 critical
Test 3: 7969 normal
Test 4: 2167+6001 against shield
Test 5: 9178 empowered normal
Test 6: 17689 empowered critical
Test 7: 11657 empowered critical
Test 8: 9345 empowered normal
Test 9: 9987 empowered critical
Test 10: *3978* empowered blocked

I tried the move a total of 50 times, those are 10 randomly picked from the 50.

Average normal hit - 7500 (approx)
Average critical hit - 12500 (approx)
Average blocked hit - 3300 (approx)


Now, my stats are not that great and it is possible to get 20k and more tooltip for the hit. Due to the fact the ultimate ignores mitigation allows it to hit very close to the original tooltip with a normal hit, or half of the tooltip with Battle Spirit. However, it is close range and dodgeable as well quite easy blocked.

Advantages without morphs:

• Very strong burst, in fact over 12% stronger than Incapacitating Strike without even considering the fact that it ignores resistance and also at least 40% stronger than Dawnbreaker's initial hit without considering the fact that it ignores resistance.
• Quite fast animation and hence can be a bit hard to realize.
• Ignores resistance.
• Steals enemy resistance.
• Not very extensive.

Disadvantages

• Easily dodged and susceptible to Major Evasion.
• Hits like wet noodle against block.
• Not AoE like Dawnbreaker and no DoT.
• No CC attached.

Unlike my previous posts, after testing it, it does not feel as broken as I first assumed.
In my opinion, till this point it's still not OP.

However, it's the morphs that makes it broken.
Berserker Rage gives you free CC immunity to both hard and soft CC for 8 secs.
Onslaught returns the entire ultimate cost, if it kills an enemy.

These morphs tilt the swing way too far. My stats used are pretty low as mentioned before as it is possible to attain 6k+ weapon damage and 40k+ stamina resulting in crazy damage, even reaching one-shot capabilities in certain conditions.

How it can be balanced (some small change suggestions)

Berserker Rage: The tooltip damage of the morph gets decreased by 30%. But the ultimate can hit for upto 100% more as the user's health goes down. If used successfully when under 50% health, gain immunity to CC, snare, immobilization and disabling effects for 8 secs.
Explanation: This morph will give a risk and reward sense to skill. It will generally hit lesser harder than the unmorphed skill but if the user is under around 30% health (basically execution range), the ultimate will start hitting harder than the original skill. If it successfully connects, it will also give CC immunity. This will allow the skill to be used in a defensive-offensive nature at a huge risk of missing and/or getting killed in a single hit and also losing 150+ ultimate which could have used for purely. If it hits, it will give the user a chance for a comeback from very bad positions, but it fails it nearly guarantees the user's loss.

Onslaught: If this skill kills an enemy, 50% of the ultimate cost is immediately refunded and Major Heroism is gained, giving 18 ultimate in 8 seconds.
Explanation: This one is simple. Instead of returning the entire ultimate cost as it does not, it will return 75 ultimate and 18 more ultimate over a span of time. Far more balanced than random spamming.

Of course, unless the patch goes live, the true power of the ultimate can't be judged. Often many seemingly powerful things on paper can turn out weak in real use, which will be tested after the patch goes live. But, something things like refundability of the cost of a powerful skill lies too close to crossing the dangerous line of balance. Which is why I placed my suggestions here.

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_KaiSchober , @ZOS_RichLambert , @Wrobel , @ZOS_BrianWheeler , @ZOS_Finn

Toc de Malsvi

STEVIL wrote: »

my 2c on the DESTRO Staff Ult:

The 2 seconds buil-up is IMO a boon for eye of the storm. it is a moveable AOE and having it take 2 seconds before the duration starts is good thing. it means you can launch it at range without triggering aggro then rush or streak in and get the full duration against an enemy. imagine launching it at the 4 seconds of tic in a duel countdown (if possible.) then streak to enemy.

HOWEVER, even with that the ults for Staff seem weak and uninspired.

So first revisit its damage to keep it on par with other ults considering all effects. but i believe the main gain would be it REFRESH and RESET so damage at less than optimal is OK.

but it needs to be unique.

My suggestion is: ADD A SIGNIFICANT SUSTAIN (refresh and reset) COMPONENT.
Toi the base ULT add the following:
On ACTIVATION restore 5% of your max magica per second including build time.)
Returns damage done as magica.
Scale damage up as rank increases.

To the non-eye of the storm morph add: When slotted reduce magica costs for all abilities by 2% (raise to 5% at 1 % per rank )

leave eye of the storm as is because the gains from mobile storm following you will increase the magica gain too.

RATIONALE: For me in play the difference between magica chars running destro staff and other options such as DW was that the staff wielders had better sustain capabilkity because of the staff ability to return magica AND the weave which took some damage and made it free (while the dw pretty much relied on just magica costing abilities for all the damage and had no real ability to heavy for magica.)

So what i would like to see Destro staff do is take that to a higher level with its ultimate - which gives it a pretty unique to me niche.

Sure, it could become a higher damage snaring effect or meteor sub but there are plenty of those.

but if it became a "SLAM and RESET" which gives your character a significant refresh ability - enabling a low magica mage to in essence "RESET" his magica pool, at least to half and then come out swinging.

Think of it as a "second wind" effect with some damage as the filler in between.

As stated above, the specifics of how the "second wind" is generated is up for grabs... but it needs to be significant not just cosmetic.

basically this crates the option of a magica burner with destro using lots of high power high magica offense, getting low on magica and then hitting the "refresh ult" to get the second wind. it can also serve plenty of characters who have sustain issues.

basically i am not interested in another high damage ult... got those already. But i dont know off hand of any significant magica recovery ults.

I think this is an worthwhile and insightful option.

Silver_Strider

I worry about ZOS and their mentality.
We say Buff Destro staff ultimate, meteor is better.
What they probably hear, "Nerf Meteor"

Jar_Ek

Just curious, but how would people consider a powerful offensive buff ultimate for destruction staff that provided a suite of major buffs for elemental powers including berserk, force, sorcery, intelligence, and prophesy and reduce all elemental spell costs for 12s? Or something like that.

Sallington

Why does our Ultimate resource go up to 1000, but only 1 skill (Overload) in the entire game can take advantage of it.

This is a perfect chance to add another skill that can utilize more of the utimate resource.

Two options off the top of my head:

1) Make the Destro Staff Ultimate a toggle, drain ultimate at whatever rate, and have the affect last as long as you have the resource. You'd be able to toggle it on/off at will.

2) Make the damage scale with your Ultimate resource. (could possibly be OP in PvP if you save up 1000 ultimate, but whatever... no bad ideas in brainstorming)

Shadesofkin

Destructive Cascade.
Calling on the raging power of elemental destruction, you send out a wave of elemental energy which bombards the target and spreads to nearby enemies for 8s. Fire: More Damage Lightning: Longer Duration Ice: Vulnerability to first target

Destructive Surge: Re: Destructive Cascade but now returns to the player after 6s and grants them magicka equal to 20% of the total damage done.

Destructive Wave: Re: Destructive Cascade, but now does increased damage to other enemies. and lasts for 10s.

STEVIL

@Sallington
So basically stick overload on the end of staff and have its fx fit the staff?
Interesting. With that being a sorc class ult AND for sorc it shuts down weapon abilities, would you say Destroverload would shut down everything but destro abilities or just simply be better than the sorc's one unique ultimate?

@Shadesofkin
Interesting. So is this a chennel you lock into since it keeps zapping the same target, kinda like Soul Assault only with an elemental twist?

exiledtyrant

The channeled attack from bow's ultimate poison morph breaks rune cage. No other channeled attacks or dots do this. It shouldn't break rune cage.

Ipslor

I think Destro ult should be totally different with different elements, not just apply different status effects. There was suggestions like this up in the thread.
Like, i dont know:

1 - Fire. Prepare for 2 sec, then launch a huge fireball to the target. When hit, the fireball explodes and damages target and nearly targets, leaving them Burning. Quite straightforward.

2 - Shock. Perpare for 2 sec, then unleash power of lightning through your staff, dealing X dmg to the target and charge nearby targets with static for K seconds. If charged targets are closer to each other then Y meters, a lightning bolts jump between them, dealing Z dmg.

3 - Frost. Instantly draw all heat from target (with no cast time). Target will be progressively slowed up to 70% in duration of X seconds. At the end of the effect target explodes with ice shards dealing Z dmg to nearby targets.

Make all elements useful already.

SublimeSparo

Make destro ult cost 333 ulti but give major vulnerability/ major slayer for 25s
Boom utility has been created

Faulgor

Elemental Storm
Channel
Create a cataclysmic storm at the target location that costs 15 Ultimate per second, dealing [x] Magic Damage every 1 second.
- Fire: Every third hit causes fear.
- Ice: Every third hit causes freeze.
- Lightning: Every third hit causes stun.

Elemental Rage
Reduced cost and cannot be interrupted.

Eye of the Storm
Allows you to move while channeling. The storm is cast above you, and follows you wherever you move.

Come on, give us AoE Overload!
(Sorry, a channel is the only option I can think of to differentiate this ultimate from other, better magic damage AoEs we already have)

Code2501

Some detail on weather weapon passives apply to weapon ultimate's would be nice, e.g. reduced costs, increased damage, reduced resist, resource recovery, increased healing, etc.
It is important in evaluating these ultimates because some passives could significantly ramp up the ultimates if they do apply.

Dracane

Code2501 wrote: »

Some detail on weather weapon passives apply to weapon ultimate's would be nice, e.g. reduced costs, increased damage, reduced resist, resource recovery, increased healing, etc.
It is important in evaluating these ultimates because some passives could significantly ramp up the ultimates if they do apply.

I know, that penetrating magic is supposed to affect elemental storm (which is currently bugged)
So all weapon passives should affect ultimates.

itscompton

Dracane wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Ok so someone want to tell me this is ballanced





Even with 1 tick on crit and applying burning status effect still destro staff ultimate deals less dmg and cost more. What the hell Zenimax? The larger area is anough to equals the deal? No ! I'm telling this right now noone will use this ultimate over meteor which also gives 2% more magicka when slotted. Comparing to stamina weapon ultimates this one is more then underhelming. There is only 1 magicka offensive weapon and 4 stamina offensive weapons so this 1 magicka weapon should have ultimate that outshines others and instead of this we get trash that noone will ever use. Well maybe if someone like fireworks. I would rather preffer to use dual wield ultimate on magicka build running with dual wield/destro then destro staff ultimate.

Thanks for this, nice write up.
And you even used elemental rage, while I used eye of the storm
Let's see. I am confident, that they will offer us some love during the next few weeks.

I mean, 90% of the comments in this thread are (rightfully) complaining about the destruction staff ultimate. They can't ignore this. But I'm afraid, they will give it a typical Zenimax buff. Like 10% reduced cost which obviously wouldn't change anything at all.

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll reduce cost 10% and buff damage 2%

Sallington

STEVIL wrote: »

@Sallington
So basically stick overload on the end of staff and have its fx fit the staff?
Interesting. With that being a sorc class ult AND for sorc it shuts down weapon abilities, would you say Destroverload would shut down everything but destro abilities or just simply be better than the sorc's one unique ultimate?

@Shadesofkin
Interesting. So is this a chennel you lock into since it keeps zapping the same target, kinda like Soul Assault only with an elemental twist?

I was thinking more of how it functions now, with either a targeted ground AOE, or an AOE placed on yourself, that you can toggle on and off as long as your have the Ultimate for it. You'd be able to use other skills on your bar, but it wouldn't give you a 3rd bar like overload does.

Humatiel

unfortunately (endgame pve perspective) there is an extremely simple equation to determine if a destro staff ult will be used. If it does more damage then meteor then yes, if it doesnt better not to bother making it.

ad4mss

Hi,

2h ultimate with Onslaught morph reminds me an ultimate of one character from different game. After a few weeks, developers of this game made a kind of nerf to it. It was about, after using it, when you killed the target, your ultimate was refreshed for using it again but only for next 5 seconds. So you had 5 seconds to kill the next target and it was really fine. ZOS how about to put such "nerf" to this 2h ultimate morph?

Dracane

itscompton wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Ok so someone want to tell me this is ballanced





Even with 1 tick on crit and applying burning status effect still destro staff ultimate deals less dmg and cost more. What the hell Zenimax? The larger area is anough to equals the deal? No ! I'm telling this right now noone will use this ultimate over meteor which also gives 2% more magicka when slotted. Comparing to stamina weapon ultimates this one is more then underhelming. There is only 1 magicka offensive weapon and 4 stamina offensive weapons so this 1 magicka weapon should have ultimate that outshines others and instead of this we get trash that noone will ever use. Well maybe if someone like fireworks. I would rather preffer to use dual wield ultimate on magicka build running with dual wield/destro then destro staff ultimate.

Thanks for this, nice write up.
And you even used elemental rage, while I used eye of the storm
Let's see. I am confident, that they will offer us some love during the next few weeks.

I mean, 90% of the comments in this thread are (rightfully) complaining about the destruction staff ultimate. They can't ignore this. But I'm afraid, they will give it a typical Zenimax buff. Like 10% reduced cost which obviously wouldn't change anything at all.

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll reduce cost 10% and buff damage 2%

Please don't summon it
A 50% cost reduction and a 20% damage buff is the least thing to do for what this ability does.

Thraben

In the German forums we discussed what to do with the useless healing ultimate. Here a suggestion:

The new "Overheal" Ultimate for the Restoration Staff

We all know that it is hard to find a useful Ultimate for a healer when Barrier and War Horn are so damn good, and when there is already an abundance of AoE healing skills. Therefore the devs need ideas instead of citicism.

Here is the idea of Zakor (modified by me to make it viable for PvP) from the German forums which - in my humble opinion - is one of the best things I have read so far concerning the subject by a wide margin:

1. The new healing Ultimate is a toggle skill, like the Sorc´s Overload. All non-weapon skills can be placed on the Overheal bar

2. Light Attacks do the same as Combat Prayer (including its buffs). If targeted allies are already at full health, they gain a small damage shield for 10 seconds ("overheal").

3. Heavy Attacks causes healing waves to radiate from the player for the duration of the channeled skill. The healing waves have a radius of 10m-25m (extending with the duration) and restore 20% of the injured players´ life per second. The healer can´t move while channelling. If targeted allies are already at full health, they gain a large medium-sized damage shield for 10 seconds ("overheal")

3a. Morph 1: The heavy attacks free every healed player from any form of Crowd Control, and the healer suffers only a 70% movement penalty while channelling instead of standing still (so the freed allies can´t run rampage, since they will soon be again CC-ed because they are out of reach)

3b. Morph 2: As long as the Overheal Ultimate is equipped, all healing spells restore 0,5% of the healed allies´ magicka and stamina. Does not apply to the caster.

4. Blocking during Overheal causes the healer to create a frontal "ward" spell 7 meters in front of him or her, like powerful restoration mages do it in Skyrim (and sometimes in ESO). The ward protects allies behind it from all kind of attacks. However, every blocked attacked drains the healer´s stamina; and if the stamina is depleted, his or her magicka.

Sallington

Thraben wrote: »

3b. Morph 2: As long as the Overheal Ultimate is equipped, all healing spells restore 0,5% of the healed allies´ magicka and stamina. Does not apply to the caster.

I love this idea. Resource sustain support is what makes Templars so much more valuable than other classes, so this would really help open up end-game healing to other classes

STEVIL

Humatiel wrote: »

unfortunately (endgame pve perspective) there is an extremely simple equation to determine if a destro staff ult will be used. If it does more damage then meteor then yes, if it doesnt better not to bother making it.

So in endgame pve there are no sustain, healing defense, mobility debuff or other challenges - only dps?

And here i thought i saw threads about folks needing tons of alchemy potions to run tri-pots for endgame in pve as well as pvp.

have to go ask why they are doing that if there aren;t issues with anything but DPS?

Darlon

I know I won't be switching from meteor if it stays like this..

Humatiel

STEVIL wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

unfortunately (endgame pve perspective) there is an extremely simple equation to determine if a destro staff ult will be used. If it does more damage then meteor then yes, if it doesnt better not to bother making it.

So in endgame pve there are no sustain, healing defense, mobility debuff or other challenges - only dps?

And here i thought i saw threads about folks needing tons of alchemy potions to run tri-pots for endgame in pve as well as pvp.

have to go ask why they are doing that if there aren;t issues with anything but DPS?

We're discussing a Destro staff so I will discard the healing/defense/mobility commentary.

As to sustain and debuffs, between alkosh/nightmothers/Infal/Sunderflame(if RNGesus likes you) etc etc etc we have more then enough debuff options for there to be anything else needed. For sustain I could see having the ability slotted giving you perhaps an additional ~10% magicka recovery(cost reduction?) making it somewhat useful then we can just flip to our back bar for the ult itself.

Every vet trial has some form of DPS check, not a "I want a 40k DD" but a game designed dps check. Because of that all that matters for a dps (mechanics/rezzing aside) is to do everything they can to provide as much dps as they can. I am sure this is different outside of trials of course (notice I put from a pve perspective) but inside a trial a dps that can suddenly cast barrier isn't doing anyone any good.

ZOS_Wrobel

Guys, thanks for the detailed testing and posts here. Two major issues we’re acting on based on your feedback is giving magicka a more effective single target Ultimate, and improving the effectiveness of Elemental Storm.

Soul Strike is already a single target Ultimate, however it’s not as reliable since you can be interrupted or stunned while casting it. In addition to resolving the reliability issues, we’re also going to be increasing the ability damage to account for the fact that you’re more vulnerable while channeling.

We want Elemental Storm to remain expensive and focus on increasing its power level to make it worth 250 Ultimate. Expect to see a significant damage boost on this one.

We’re committed to making all of the Ultimates feel awesome and will continue to make improvements and fix bugs. Don’t stop the feedback and don’t stop believing.

Humatiel

OMG ITS A WROBEL

Shadesofkin

Wrobel wrote: »

Guys, thanks for the detailed testing and posts here. Two major issues we’re acting on based on your feedback is giving magicka a more effective single target Ultimate, and improving the effectiveness of Elemental Storm.

Soul Strike is already a single target Ultimate, however it’s not as reliable since you can be interrupted or stunned while casting it. In addition to resolving the reliability issues, we’re also going to be increasing the ability damage to account for the fact that you’re more vulnerable while channeling.

We want Elemental Storm to remain expensive and focus on increasing its power level to make it worth 250 Ultimate. Expect to see a significant damage boost on this one.

We’re committed to making all of the Ultimates feel awesome and will continue to make improvements and fix bugs. Don’t stop the feedback and don’t stop believing.

The big thing is that it needs to be more than just damage. We have to see a return on magicka, maybe a MASSIVE increase on our Magicka Recovery after the Ult is done for 6s or so.

Just don't think that "damage" is the only route.

RoyJade

Well, you know what is the problem, you acknowledge it. That's good. Don't miss the point with the fix

Zakor

@Wrobel Some more info about the resto ult? It's also far too weak! Why do you guys always forget us healers? I took some effort to desgin a better ultimate in the german feedback thread (somebody translated it I think) and would like to know if you even heard about it yet or at least consider changing the current healer ult.

Faulgor

Wrobel wrote: »

Guys, thanks for the detailed testing and posts here. Two major issues we’re acting on based on your feedback is giving magicka a more effective single target Ultimate, and improving the effectiveness of Elemental Storm.

Soul Strike is already a single target Ultimate, however it’s not as reliable since you can be interrupted or stunned while casting it. In addition to resolving the reliability issues, we’re also going to be increasing the ability damage to account for the fact that you’re more vulnerable while channeling.

We want Elemental Storm to remain expensive and focus on increasing its power level to make it worth 250 Ultimate. Expect to see a significant damage boost on this one.

We’re committed to making all of the Ultimates feel awesome and will continue to make improvements and fix bugs. Don’t stop the feedback and don’t stop believing.

I always liked Soul Strike, so I'm really really happy we'll see that one improved as well.

Humatiel

Zakor wrote: »

@Wrobel Some more info about the resto ult? It's also far too weak! Why do you guys always forget us healers? I took some effort to desgin a better ultimate and would like to know if you even heard about it yet or at least consider changing the current healer ult.

They've forgotten about healers so much they've made Lich more accessible, scaled up Warlock, given you Spell Power Cure and Infallible Aeither and both a masters/vma staff for your dead slot. Not to mention the healing buffs coming from the 4 new 2-Piece monster sets that let automation return stamina for you, and then the all time favorite Worm Cult.

I agree with you that the healing ult is weak, but jesus lets tone down the outcry a bit on the "the role is dead! the role is dead!".