What do you think of Crown Store Random boxes/Lottery box?

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Mojmir wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Forsakiin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Forsakiin wrote: »

The outrage regarding these boxes is laughable. I'd understand if they were introducing a p2w system, but it will be purely cosmetic items.

You've got to understand, a lot of us have seen this exact promise made before, in other MMOs. It will be strictly cosmetic at launch, but over time... not so much. ZOS is not the first company to come up with this business model. ZOS is not the first company to soft sell it, saying it's only going to be cosmetic. If ZOS did not stoop into P2W with this format, then they would be the first company I'm aware of with a spotless record on that subject. So... no. This is the first step towards that. A lot of us have seen this road before, we know where it leads, and we're saying "*** no!"

I would be here in protest with everyone else if this great game became p2w, but as of now it is not, and won't be in the next update. I don't think it's fair to criticise ZoS on presumptions, or what other MMOs have done in the past. Those MMOs are not ESO, that is the difference. All these boxes are at the moment are cosmetic items, nothing more and nothing less, therefore I believe the reaction around this forum should be based on that information. The pitch forks should only come out IF the boxes become p2w, but as of now they are far from it and I think it should be welcomed by the community if it brings in money to improve the game further.

And that's an entirely fair position to take. I mean that, it's not a sarcastic undercut. From where you're sitting, with what you've experienced, it's entirely reasonable to say, "look, I don't know what they're going to do next."

Unfortunately, I'm not in the position of saying, "this is unfamiliar to me." And, you can trust me when I say, "I want to believe that ZOS is different from all the other companies I've seen go down this road in the past." But, prior experience tells me that, no, this cannot lead to anything good happening. I've seen what this does to MMOs too many times.

It won't bring more money into development. Even if that's the goal, the boxes always become a self sustaining cycle, and the rest of the game rots. They always become more important than the game to the accountants, if no one else. And when the developers are taking their marching orders, it is always at the behest of "where will we get the most return for our investment into the product?"

P2W is coming. They may not want it. They may not be planning for it now. (Though, I suspect they are, even if only as "a contingency.") But, it is coming. When the box sales flag a little bit. When the population dips too far, and it becomes more convenient to buy power.

ZOS could be different. But, I can't put that kind of faith into a business. I'm sorry.

I think what makes it hard for people to grasp is their faith in the name of the game. If it was any other franchise or brand it would be a different story.

Yeah. Honestly, this applies across the board to Bethesda in general right now. Over the last 10 months there's been a shift into mobile gaming, with it's own monitization standards, the introduction of their first Season Pass ever... which was honestly kinda wonky and inconsistent (in comparison BGS's prior DLC schedules). Now we're getting lucky bags, which isn't that surprising when you remember they just pushed a digital CCG into beta.

The entire thing about a game every year? Ramping up to become a major game publisher? And the ethics just left the building heading for Norfolk.

JimT722

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Mojmir wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Forsakiin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Forsakiin wrote: »

The outrage regarding these boxes is laughable. I'd understand if they were introducing a p2w system, but it will be purely cosmetic items.

You've got to understand, a lot of us have seen this exact promise made before, in other MMOs. It will be strictly cosmetic at launch, but over time... not so much. ZOS is not the first company to come up with this business model. ZOS is not the first company to soft sell it, saying it's only going to be cosmetic. If ZOS did not stoop into P2W with this format, then they would be the first company I'm aware of with a spotless record on that subject. So... no. This is the first step towards that. A lot of us have seen this road before, we know where it leads, and we're saying "*** no!"

I would be here in protest with everyone else if this great game became p2w, but as of now it is not, and won't be in the next update. I don't think it's fair to criticise ZoS on presumptions, or what other MMOs have done in the past. Those MMOs are not ESO, that is the difference. All these boxes are at the moment are cosmetic items, nothing more and nothing less, therefore I believe the reaction around this forum should be based on that information. The pitch forks should only come out IF the boxes become p2w, but as of now they are far from it and I think it should be welcomed by the community if it brings in money to improve the game further.

And that's an entirely fair position to take. I mean that, it's not a sarcastic undercut. From where you're sitting, with what you've experienced, it's entirely reasonable to say, "look, I don't know what they're going to do next."

Unfortunately, I'm not in the position of saying, "this is unfamiliar to me." And, you can trust me when I say, "I want to believe that ZOS is different from all the other companies I've seen go down this road in the past." But, prior experience tells me that, no, this cannot lead to anything good happening. I've seen what this does to MMOs too many times.

It won't bring more money into development. Even if that's the goal, the boxes always become a self sustaining cycle, and the rest of the game rots. They always become more important than the game to the accountants, if no one else. And when the developers are taking their marching orders, it is always at the behest of "where will we get the most return for our investment into the product?"

P2W is coming. They may not want it. They may not be planning for it now. (Though, I suspect they are, even if only as "a contingency.") But, it is coming. When the box sales flag a little bit. When the population dips too far, and it becomes more convenient to buy power.

ZOS could be different. But, I can't put that kind of faith into a business. I'm sorry.

I think what makes it hard for people to grasp is their faith in the name of the game. If it was any other franchise or brand it would be a different story.

I thought I had faith. loved the franchise since Morrowind. Now it's fading watching them adopt the same cheap strategies as other games because I've seen the results. Since I started playing MMO's I've dreamed of an elder scrolls mmo.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

JimT722 wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Forsakiin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Forsakiin wrote: »

The outrage regarding these boxes is laughable. I'd understand if they were introducing a p2w system, but it will be purely cosmetic items.

You've got to understand, a lot of us have seen this exact promise made before, in other MMOs. It will be strictly cosmetic at launch, but over time... not so much. ZOS is not the first company to come up with this business model. ZOS is not the first company to soft sell it, saying it's only going to be cosmetic. If ZOS did not stoop into P2W with this format, then they would be the first company I'm aware of with a spotless record on that subject. So... no. This is the first step towards that. A lot of us have seen this road before, we know where it leads, and we're saying "*** no!"

I would be here in protest with everyone else if this great game became p2w, but as of now it is not, and won't be in the next update. I don't think it's fair to criticise ZoS on presumptions, or what other MMOs have done in the past. Those MMOs are not ESO, that is the difference. All these boxes are at the moment are cosmetic items, nothing more and nothing less, therefore I believe the reaction around this forum should be based on that information. The pitch forks should only come out IF the boxes become p2w, but as of now they are far from it and I think it should be welcomed by the community if it brings in money to improve the game further.

And that's an entirely fair position to take. I mean that, it's not a sarcastic undercut. From where you're sitting, with what you've experienced, it's entirely reasonable to say, "look, I don't know what they're going to do next."

Unfortunately, I'm not in the position of saying, "this is unfamiliar to me." And, you can trust me when I say, "I want to believe that ZOS is different from all the other companies I've seen go down this road in the past." But, prior experience tells me that, no, this cannot lead to anything good happening. I've seen what this does to MMOs too many times.

It won't bring more money into development. Even if that's the goal, the boxes always become a self sustaining cycle, and the rest of the game rots. They always become more important than the game to the accountants, if no one else. And when the developers are taking their marching orders, it is always at the behest of "where will we get the most return for our investment into the product?"

P2W is coming. They may not want it. They may not be planning for it now. (Though, I suspect they are, even if only as "a contingency.") But, it is coming. When the box sales flag a little bit. When the population dips too far, and it becomes more convenient to buy power.

ZOS could be different. But, I can't put that kind of faith into a business. I'm sorry.

I think what makes it hard for people to grasp is their faith in the name of the game. If it was any other franchise or brand it would be a different story.

I thought I had faith. loved the franchise since Morrowind. Now it's fading watching them adopt the same cheap strategies as other games because I've seen the results. Since I started playing MMO's I've dreamed of an elder scrolls mmo.

You 'n me both, lil' buddy.

Forsakiin

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

starkerealm wrote: »

Forsakiin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Forsakiin wrote: »

The outrage regarding these boxes is laughable. I'd understand if they were introducing a p2w system, but it will be purely cosmetic items.

You've got to understand, a lot of us have seen this exact promise made before, in other MMOs. It will be strictly cosmetic at launch, but over time... not so much. ZOS is not the first company to come up with this business model. ZOS is not the first company to soft sell it, saying it's only going to be cosmetic. If ZOS did not stoop into P2W with this format, then they would be the first company I'm aware of with a spotless record on that subject. So... no. This is the first step towards that. A lot of us have seen this road before, we know where it leads, and we're saying "*** no!"

I would be here in protest with everyone else if this great game became p2w, but as of now it is not, and won't be in the next update. I don't think it's fair to criticise ZoS on presumptions, or what other MMOs have done in the past. Those MMOs are not ESO, that is the difference. All these boxes are at the moment are cosmetic items, nothing more and nothing less, therefore I believe the reaction around this forum should be based on that information. The pitch forks should only come out IF the boxes become p2w, but as of now they are far from it and I think it should be welcomed by the community if it brings in money to improve the game further.

And that's an entirely fair position to take. I mean that, it's not a sarcastic undercut. From where you're sitting, with what you've experienced, it's entirely reasonable to say, "look, I don't know what they're going to do next."

Unfortunately, I'm not in the position of saying, "this is unfamiliar to me." And, you can trust me when I say, "I want to believe that ZOS is different from all the other companies I've seen go down this road in the past." But, prior experience tells me that, no, this cannot lead to anything good happening. I've seen what this does to MMOs too many times.

It won't bring more money into development. Even if that's the goal, the boxes always become a self sustaining cycle, and the rest of the game rots. They always become more important than the game to the accountants, if no one else. And when the developers are taking their marching orders, it is always at the behest of "where will we get the most return for our investment into the product?"

P2W is coming. They may not want it. They may not be planning for it now. (Though, I suspect they are, even if only as "a contingency.") But, it is coming. When the box sales flag a little bit. When the population dips too far, and it becomes more convenient to buy power.

ZOS could be different. But, I can't put that kind of faith into a business. I'm sorry.

ESO is the first MMO I've put a heavy amount of time into so I can't argue with anything that you've said. You are right in saying that my faith in the intentions of ZoS is completely blind. But don't you also think that the anticipation for the bad is way too high at the moment? If p2w is in the schedule for ZoS in the future then I don't think there will be anything stopping it. I can't remember a scenario in any game when it has been prevented. So for now I am just going to accept the game for what it is currently. Your rationale is fully justifiable though, and I can understand the concerns of similar opinions. The same cannot be said about others in here however.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Forsakiin wrote: »

ESO is the first MMO I've put a heavy amount of time into so I can't argue with anything that you've said. You are right in saying that my faith in the intentions of ZoS is completely blind. But don't you also think that the anticipation for the bad is way too high at the moment?

I don't think the reaction is uncalled for. I realize that's not exactly what you're asking, but the responses you're seeing in here are tempered by prior experiences, across a number of titles. Including people responding to games I didn't play, including Rift, Guild Wars 2, and others.

Forsakiin wrote: »

If p2w is in the schedule for ZoS in the future then I don't think there will be anything stopping it. I can't remember a scenario in any game when it has been prevented. So for now I am just going to accept the game for what it is currently. Your rationale is fully justifiable though, and I can understand the concerns of similar opinions. The same cannot be said about others in here however.

The experience you're missing out on is the sensation of watching a game you enjoyed, and invested serious time into, getting hollowed out. Having systems yanked out of your hands, and snapped into the cash drip feed. Not all games go to the same degree, but it's an experience you never quite forget, and don't ever want to experience again.

Because MMOs are, in many ways, more about the community than the actual content, and because these kinds of systems do eviscerate the game's core community, it means there is a connection with the game that you just don't get in other titles. Also, unlike single player games there's no rolling back the clock. You can't pick a build you like, set steam to never update, and live in the past. If the servers aren't synced to your build, you're not logging in.

Some of the reaction your seeing is more like people losing friends because that is, ultimately, what this will cost them. Not the game itself, but the people in the game. The identity of the community will be lost.

In that context, the severity of the response should make a lot more sense.

Recremen

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Forsakiin wrote: »

The outrage regarding these boxes is laughable. I'd understand if they were introducing a p2w system, but it will be purely cosmetic items. People have gone into hysteria acting as if they have a gun pointed towards their heads forcing them to buy them. I also love how suddenly everyone has became a justice warrior and are jumping to the aid of these so called "vulnerable people" who are now doomed to forever blow all their money on ESO crown boxes.

I have a similar feeling about crown boxes as I do about the duelling that's coming out. I'm not bothered about duelling, and I doubt i'll use it very much since I'm more of a pve player, but I'm happy for the people who wanted it and will be using it. At the end of the day it's a feature of the game that I'm not forced to do and can easily avoid, much like the crown boxes.

This will no doubt rake in a lot of money for ZoS, as I imagine a lot of people will buy tons of boxes in order to get a previous limited mount they want. But for some reason this is where the problem lies for people on this forum. A mass triggering has occurred because there is no guarantee on what you're going to get, even though the conditions of the boxes are presented clear as day to you before buying them. There's this extreme notion going around that this is going to extract the gambling addiction in people, and of course there's absolutely no way us internet people could accept such a thing happening as we always aim for the moral high ground /s. Some people need to experience life more if they truly believe others are so uncontrollable like this. I see people threatening and claiming to leave the game over this which is pretty hilarious really.

I agree with the decision to release these boxes. It brings more money into ZoS which will (hopefully) be reinvested back into the game for new and better features, and it also gives people a chance to obtain limited items without ruining their rarity for the others who had initially bought them when they were in the crown store.

If gear etc. is added into these boxes then I will happily hop onto the bandwagon, but I really doubt that will happen.

@Forsakiin It's rather a lot more complicating than hurting people's feel-feels and triggering them. I'll leave the very real problem of gambling addiction alone for now and focus on what's going to affect most folks: the inability to make informed decisions about their purchases. Essentially, when things are offered as incentives to gamble instead of a direct purchase, the ability for the customer to make their own determination regarding the item's value completely erodes. Mathematically speaking, it is literally impossible to guarantee that you'll get something you actually want in a gambling system, regardless of how much you bid.

That's something of a problem. Up until now, we've enjoyed being able to make informed choices as consumers regarding what cosmetic and convenience items to buy. When they start offering the gambling service, however, our entire customer experience with the Crown Store changes. How much is that item worth? Well, it's indeterminate, we can't actually make a decision because of the infinite uncertainty. So then the question becomes "am I going to enjoy gambling for this enough to outweigh some potential loss x where x is the amount I bid"? For what seems like nearly everyone in this thread, that answer is a hard and fast "No, not ever". Even the people like yourself, who have expressed support for the system in general, have expressed no interest in it.

That's because none of us signed up for ESO to do gambling, we signed up for the content. Gambling is not only pointless in terms of entertainment value (in the context of ESO), it's downright blocking us from enjoying the content. Folks like myself have greatly enjoyed the Crown Store offerings. I've liked the different mounts and costumes so much that I invested in even more Crowns than my ESO+ subscription gets me. But if this goes forward then we're not going to be able to buy a whole slew of things from the Crown Store anymore. We're only going to get to buy a gambling service with a chance to win the cosmetic items. That's just plain undesirable, we want to be able to buy the items directly as we're used to. People can balk at the p2w fears and the rest (I sure am, for now), but it is at least obvious that this change in monetization strategy is negatively affecting players who had previously been keeping the game afloat. Is the gambling revenue even going to offset the loss in direct sales? I guess time will tell.

Dromede

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

After all this craziness and arguments between players, i just really hope that developers are ok with where the whole thing is going. As obvious from my poll choice, i'm willing to give this move benefit of the doubt, but it would really - really - suck to see this title go down the mainstream way.

I was just thinking how many times different developers mentioned how proud they are that ESO is not just an MMO - it's an MMORPG, and how a fair amount of their population comes from single player RPG-heavy games. How will they react to rng boxes? I'm poisoned and biased by previous MMO experience, can someone purely RPG (previously) enlighten me on their thoughts?

anitajoneb17_ESO

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Recremen wrote: »

We're only going to get to buy a gambling service with a chance to win the cosmetic items. That's just plain undesirable, we want to be able to buy the items directly as we're used to.

You'll still be able to purchase directly. Just not ALL items.
Question is : do you really NEED to have them all ? Sooo baaadly ???

Remember : nobody is forced to buy.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

We're only going to get to buy a gambling service with a chance to win the cosmetic items. That's just plain undesirable, we want to be able to buy the items directly as we're used to.

You'll still be able to purchase directly. Just not ALL items.
Question is : do you really NEED to have them all ? Sooo baaadly ???

Remember : nobody is forced to buy.

No one's forced to stick around and watch the resulting fallout either. That doesn't mean we're not going to call the entire situation a bad idea.

anitajoneb17_ESO

No, don't ever add these into the game.

starkerealm wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

We're only going to get to buy a gambling service with a chance to win the cosmetic items. That's just plain undesirable, we want to be able to buy the items directly as we're used to.

You'll still be able to purchase directly. Just not ALL items.
Question is : do you really NEED to have them all ? Sooo baaadly ???

Remember : nobody is forced to buy.

No one's forced to stick around and watch the resulting fallout either. That doesn't mean we're not going to call the entire situation a bad idea.

I don't believe in your "predictions".
According to forumers, ESO was doomed to die because of Wildstar, then because of Fallout, then because of GTA, then because of Witcher 3, then because of Black Desert, and all players are supposed to have left already because lag, imbalance, CP grind, lack of new content, whatever, and B2P should have turned the entire game P2W long ago.
But what I see now is a game packed with players, nothing even remotely P2W (except imperial edition but that was there from the start), and updated/expanded on a regular basis.
So, no, I don't buy doomsayers' words at all.

Wow

No, don't ever add these into the game.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

We're only going to get to buy a gambling service with a chance to win the cosmetic items. That's just plain undesirable, we want to be able to buy the items directly as we're used to.

You'll still be able to purchase directly. Just not ALL items.
Question is : do you really NEED to have them all ? Sooo baaadly ???

Remember : nobody is forced to buy.

No one's forced to stick around and watch the resulting fallout either. That doesn't mean we're not going to call the entire situation a bad idea.

I don't believe in your "predictions".
According to forumers, ESO was doomed to die because of Wildstar, then because of Fallout, then because of GTA, then because of Witcher 3, then because of Black Desert, and all players are supposed to have left already because lag, imbalance, CP grind, lack of new content, whatever, and B2P should have turned the entire game P2W long ago.
But what I see now is a game packed with players, nothing even remotely P2W (except imperial edition but that was there from the start), and updated/expanded on a regular basis.
So, no, I don't buy doomsayers' words at all.

Wtf you talking about? @anitajoneb17_ESO
Those are according to forumers.

What we talking here are based from our experience from past games we've played that went Lockboxes route. We saw it first hand on them all. The existence of Lootboxes itself is a step towards Pay to win. It has happened with past games in similar fashion, with same exact initial promises.

Like NCSoft, they said NO RNG BOXES, but what?
Few months later they put RNG Boxes https://www.reddit.com/r/bladeandsoul/comments/44131b/so_what_happened_to_no_rng_boxes/



You want these in ESO? The rare outfit is on the bottom of the list, the upper items there are the CRAPS that you dont want. So you can guess how many money they want for those costume.

I wish I had that thread saved where a dude documented his unboxing, bought so many of these boxes (Don't remember the numbers but it was lot of dollars for me) and he didn't get the rare costume. Couldn't find it on my browser history anymore.

MissBizz

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Wow.

I don't think I'll be able to keep up with this thread, lol. I'm going to spew out random thoughts on what I just read over.

I don't think they designed the skeletal mounts purely for loot boxes. I imagine they just make stuff and then it gets stowed away and someone else decides what to do with it.

"Well we need a new something for this DLC since we are doing this loyalty thing now, so we will pick this thing. We wanted to do X # of limited mounts this DLC season, so all these 3 kinda fit the theme and look special enough to be limited" etc. etc. Then this idea goes across a desk and they dig through their backstock of stuff made and say "we will drop this this and this into the crown box"

It was not confirmed that the Wild Hunt mounts would be the exclusive items as far as I know. Where I did read (a version of) that was on Reddit by someone who attended gamescom and wrote they asked Rich and that he just had a funny grin on his face, leading players (including who asked) that the answer was yes. Could it be true? Absolutely that's possible. That same poster was the one who asked what would be included and wrote that no subscriber loyalty rewards would be included. I don't believe the player would have any reason to write other than what they experienced.

If you read this paragraph you need to read the whole thing and not just the first half. It pertains to "it's only cosmetic, I'll care if it goes P2W"

This is kind of general but keeps getting brought up. Essentially "I don't care because it's only cosmetic and I'll care if it goes P2W". Just to put this in perspective for you, there's people in this game that would pay outrageous amounts of money for a costume they feel would fit their character perfectly, but wouldn't consider a gold plated vMSA weapon (or whatever they had said, heh, was kinda entertaining). As in, quite frankly, I would care LESS if they were weapons being locked behind a gamble than cosmetics. No, I do realize why weapons etc. would be hated by an amazingly large portion of people, and I think the hate definitely has grounds. No I don't think they actually SHOULD put weapons in lockboxes.. EVER. My point is that people care about different things. I don't care about having super amazing sets or any of that like, but I do care about rolling into some random RP I decide to watch and owning a costume that fits the scenario perfectly. I care about looking good where as other people care about their skill shining through, being on leaderboards etc.

@Recremen You are the MAN! (and I just put it together today who you are haha). You have very logically laid out a large portion of why I am against these. I like to make an informed decision on if something is worth the value I can pay. I love cosmetics and buy crowns on top of my subscription so I can buy them. I can make decisions on what I want to buy based on the value I perceive the item to have, and what they are charging. I cannot make this decision when the end price is completely unknown to me.

As for the whole possible future pay to win arguments. I won't lie, that's very possible. Do I want to believe it? No, of course not. I haven't went through MMO's where this has happened, but I know you folks aren't making up stories here. I just quite honestly don't fight this fight with that one due to it being something completely unknown. Where as my stance is against exclusive items being gated behind lottery boxes - as they already have said this is planned.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I don't believe in your "predictions".

I didn't predict anything.

ZOS said, "no cash shop."

And behold, there was a cash shop.

ZOS said, "no lockboxes."

And behold, lockboxes emerged.

ZOS said, "no P2W."

And behold, there was no P2W... yet.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

nothing even remotely P2W (except imperial edition but that was there from the start)

Oh... well, uh... crap. So, "no P2W except for the P2W that's already there..." right. I guess that's trustworthy.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

So, no, I don't buy doomsayers' words at all.

That's good, I'm not selling words. ZOS is selling gambling tickets though, if you want to buy those.

I mean, I don't, but, it's really up to you.

JimT722

No, don't ever add these into the game.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

We're only going to get to buy a gambling service with a chance to win the cosmetic items. That's just plain undesirable, we want to be able to buy the items directly as we're used to.

You'll still be able to purchase directly. Just not ALL items.
Question is : do you really NEED to have them all ? Sooo baaadly ???

Remember : nobody is forced to buy.

No one's forced to stick around and watch the resulting fallout either. That doesn't mean we're not going to call the entire situation a bad idea.

I don't believe in your "predictions".
According to forumers, ESO was doomed to die because of Wildstar, then because of Fallout, then because of GTA, then because of Witcher 3, then because of Black Desert, and all players are supposed to have left already because lag, imbalance, CP grind, lack of new content, whatever, and B2P should have turned the entire game P2W long ago.
But what I see now is a game packed with players, nothing even remotely P2W (except imperial edition but that was there from the start), and updated/expanded on a regular basis.
So, no, I don't buy doomsayers' words at all.

He's not talking about the death of the game. The game is going to do fine. It's about the direction of the game. P2w items are not the only way to damage the game. I left SWTOR and they only sell cosmetics random packs. I don't think I will leave this game. Only because it's elder scrolls, any other franchise and I would be out. I will, however, reconsider how much support I will give this game as I have trouble supporting these business practices.

I think if these take off forget about getting most of the content they used to show in the road ahead. Why make those when these sell so well. And they will sell.

Genomic

Honestly, despite many questionable decisions by ZOS since ESO began, I never thought they'd sink this low. But I suppose they have been slowly, slowly inching towards this since B2P. Boiling a frog.

The_Payne_Train

No, don't ever add these into the game.

I would rather earn rare mounts and cosmetic items from achievements in game or even mind numbing grinding before paying money to have a chance at something that most likely has a 0.5% drop rate.

anitajoneb17_ESO

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Wow wrote: »

Wtf you talking about? @anitajoneb17_ESO
Those are according to forumers.

What we talking here are based from our experience from past games we've played that went Lockboxes route. We saw it first hand on them all. The existence of Lootboxes itself is a step towards Pay to win. It has happened with past games in similar fashion, with same exact initial promises.
.../...
You want these in ESO? The rare outfit is on the bottom of the list, the upper items there are the CRAPS that you dont want. So you can guess how many money they want for those costume.

I wish I had that thread saved where a dude documented his unboxing, bought so many of these boxes (Don't remember the numbers but it was lot of dollars for me) and he didn't get the rare costume. Couldn't find it on my browser history anymore.

No I don't want those in ESO, I think lockboxes are not very "classy". But I don't believe it will ruin the entire game and all the end-of-the-world uproar that's been all over these threads since sunday.

Other games ? ESO is ESO, other games are other games. P2W doomsayers also backed up their predictions with "other games" and none of it happened, because ZOS has always been smart with the crown store design.

And I couldn't care less about the story of one guy who was stupid enough to buy a large number of those boxes in the hope to get a particular item (and then pretends he's a victim).

Buy random boxes if you're ok with a random item. Never buy a random box if you're looking for a specific item. Simple as that, really.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

MissBizz wrote: »

I don't think they designed the skeletal mounts purely for loot boxes. I imagine they just make stuff and then it gets stowed away and someone else decides what to do with it.

In general, I'd be inclined to agree. Except, actually making models (even to the point that you can put them together in a render like that) costs money. If you're running a business, and developing content, those are resources that can go towards more immediately useful assets. We've actually a lot of datamined mounts go into the store with less lead time than those things.

It's possible that they were originally intended for last Halloween, and for whatever reason were delayed. That is possible. However, there is the lingering bit that ZOS hasn't been developing mount sets like that. These mounts have always been a kind of oddity in the datamining. To suddenly see this pop up again with the, yes, you're right, unconfirmed lucky bag prize mounts, suggests this idea has been kicking around for a lot longer than ZOS says.

It's possible that ZOS didn't have plans, that after the success of Fallout Shelter, Overwatch, or whatever; someone at Bethesda Softworks said, "get on that right now." But, given the lead time that ZOS has shown for nearly everything else, I find that answer unsatisfying.

Recremen

No, don't ever add these into the game.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

We're only going to get to buy a gambling service with a chance to win the cosmetic items. That's just plain undesirable, we want to be able to buy the items directly as we're used to.

You'll still be able to purchase directly. Just not ALL items.
Question is : do you really NEED to have them all ? Sooo baaadly ???

Remember : nobody is forced to buy.

I don't want to have -all- items, but when something good is inevitably tucked away as an incentive to gamble I'm going to be missing out on it. It's not a compulsion to collect for me, it's a decision about what will look good on my characters or fits their RP shtick. For example, all of the Senche mounts except the Dro-m'Athra were absolute godsends for my main. The Dro-m'Athra was incredibly tempting because of how cool it is, but it made zero sense for any of my characters to be riding it, and indeed made negative sense for my main to ride it. He's terrified of Dro-m'Athra and of the idea that he could get turned into one. Riding around on one was just completely out of the question.

Now, realistically, how would my enjoyment of the game be affected if I wasn't able to buy to different Senche mounts? Well, quite a bit, actually. I adore being able to match my armor/costume dyes to my mount, and having a limited mount selection means having to narrow down my dye selection. That simply won't do! So when they come out with that White Lion Senche that was datamined months ago, where is it going to go? The Crown Store? Endless joy! The gambling boxes? Eternal suffering!! I've been dying to get a white cat mount for ages to match with all of my lighter-color dyes. :-( If it's stuck in gambling boxes then I'm going to keep having to use the white horse and the white bear, which is totally not going to work out if I'm in a cat mood.

So yeah, if they're locking things in gambling boxes it's going to very negatively impact my gameplay. It's complete nonsense to functionally remove player choice only to hold a bitter carrot over their head saying "oh, but you do still have a choice, my little addict. Just one more box, it's sure to be there this time." They could have just put the items on the store, there's no need to play this gambling game.

And heya @MissBizz , always happy to see you around! ^.^

MissBizz

No, don't ever add these into the game.

@starkerealm I definitely can agree with you. Although on the other hand, why would they create these much earlier than they needed to if the plan all along was to add them to these boxes? They could have instead spent that time and effort making a couple more expensive limited times mounts to sell in the mean time.. since as you mentioned, that extended lead time is not usually seen before we saw the items. Not even sure why I'm saying this, haha, as I'm sure you totally understand already. We will never really know...

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

starkerealm wrote: »

That's good, I'm not selling words.

Oh, wait, ***, I am selling words. Just, not here.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Wow wrote: »

Wtf you talking about? @anitajoneb17_ESO
Those are according to forumers.

What we talking here are based from our experience from past games we've played that went Lockboxes route. We saw it first hand on them all. The existence of Lootboxes itself is a step towards Pay to win. It has happened with past games in similar fashion, with same exact initial promises.
.../...
You want these in ESO? The rare outfit is on the bottom of the list, the upper items there are the CRAPS that you dont want. So you can guess how many money they want for those costume.

I wish I had that thread saved where a dude documented his unboxing, bought so many of these boxes (Don't remember the numbers but it was lot of dollars for me) and he didn't get the rare costume. Couldn't find it on my browser history anymore.

No I don't want those in ESO, I think lockboxes are not very "classy". But I don't believe it will ruin the entire game and all the end-of-the-world uproar that's been all over these threads since sunday.

Other games ? ESO is ESO, other games are other games. P2W doomsayers also backed up their predictions with "other games" and none of it happened, because ZOS has always been smart with the crown store design.

@anitajoneb17_ESO, well, the world is full of idiots. And yeah, the people who thought The Witcher 3, Wildstar, Archeage, or any of the dozen other titles that have come and gone would kill ESO were just that.

ESO was never in danger from another title out there. MMOs don't die like that. Their communities don't function like that. Sure, you and some of your friends may defect over to another MMO for a couple weeks... but it won't stick. You'll be back. Because more of your friends are here.

The things that actually kill MMOs? The things that legitimately destroy them? Those aren't other titles. It's their own design choices. It's things like the NGE. It's things that alter the character of the community irrevocably. It is the transition to F2P, to gamble systems, to grind systems designed to get you to crack open your wallet to do anything.

Wildstorm could never force ESO's community to fracture on itself. Could never provoke a thread like this. It took an act by ZOS to do that. That is what is different this time.

At that moment, prior experience becomes immediately relevant.

I'm not telling you, "oh, Cryptic will kill ESO." They can't. I mean, we've had threads saying Neverwinter would. They were laughable at the time, and remain so. Neverwinter could never replace ESO. It doesn't have the same community, and it never can.

I can tell you, I watched what Cryptic did in Star Trek Online. I saw what lockboxes and gambling did to the community. I was there. I can tell you the behavior it causes. Not, because I'm a fan of STO, but because I understand the basic human psychology at work. I understand how it tweaks the Skinner Box, for both the players and the developers.

I'm telling you, this is a problem. Not because I'm a fan of some other game who's hyped up about it and says they think it will kill ESO in some macho bit of fan bravado, but because I understand what this can do. I've explained exactly why, several times.

I also think Gina lied about lockboxes being in the works, because of the timing of things, but I don't expect you to follow me on that little side trip.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

MissBizz wrote: »

@starkerealm I definitely can agree with you. Although on the other hand, why would they create these much earlier than they needed to if the plan all along was to add them to these boxes? They could have instead spent that time and effort making a couple more expensive limited times mounts to sell in the mean time.. since as you mentioned, that extended lead time is not usually seen before we saw the items. Not even sure why I'm saying this, haha, as I'm sure you totally understand already. We will never really know...

@MissBizz, if I was really cynical and paranoid, I'd say because this has been a contingency for a while. But, I don't want to believe that, because I'm not quite that cynical.

Something changed, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing the boxes now. I don't know if that's just the Dro-m'athra mount or Breton hero costumes didn't sell to expectations. Maybe the Dro-m'athra sold too well, it whetted their appetite, and the Breton costume floundered. I honestly don't know why the lockboxes came up now.

It could simply be, the mounts were prepared for the case that they'd need to be in the store on short notice, if the game's numbers dropped to certain thresholds. But, I don't really see that reflected in game. Newbie zones are packed.

Wow

No, don't ever add these into the game.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Wow wrote: »

Wtf you talking about? @anitajoneb17_ESO
Those are according to forumers.

What we talking here are based from our experience from past games we've played that went Lockboxes route. We saw it first hand on them all. The existence of Lootboxes itself is a step towards Pay to win. It has happened with past games in similar fashion, with same exact initial promises.
.../...
You want these in ESO? The rare outfit is on the bottom of the list, the upper items there are the CRAPS that you dont want. So you can guess how many money they want for those costume.

I wish I had that thread saved where a dude documented his unboxing, bought so many of these boxes (Don't remember the numbers but it was lot of dollars for me) and he didn't get the rare costume. Couldn't find it on my browser history anymore.

No I don't want those in ESO, I think lockboxes are not very "classy". But I don't believe it will ruin the entire game and all the end-of-the-world uproar that's been all over these threads since sunday.

Other games ? ESO is ESO, other games are other games. P2W doomsayers also backed up their predictions with "other games" and none of it happened, because ZOS has always been smart with the crown store design.

And I couldn't care less about the story of one guy who was stupid enough to buy a large number of those boxes in the hope to get a particular item (and then pretends he's a victim).

Buy random boxes if you're ok with a random item. Never buy a random box if you're looking for a specific item. Simple as that, really.

Unfortunately you have to buy the random boxes if you're looking for a specific item, since the only way to get that one is via Crown Crates.

It's not that simple. RNG Boxes is a bad business model, to the costumers that is. To the company it might be the best as well as easiest way to generate money. Make couple of items, put the RNG chance for each items, then slap them into a lootbox, and watch the money raining every day.

Not enough money flows? The rain not big enough to fill the thirst? Repeat the process, but next time put more irresistible item to the box. Without you realizing, the game that you love become semi-p2win. And later p2win.

People who act indifferent, ah it's not my problem, I'm okay with that, no big deal, I just choose not to buy it. People who sweep it under the rug. Are also one of the reason we keep seeing RNG Boxes in mmorpgs.

I love this game, @starkerealm love this game, and I'm sure you @anitajoneb17_ESO also love this game And now that ZoS has choosen this path, it seems ZoS love your money in your wallet much more than anything else.

elvenmad

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Pretty sure i'm done now, after the first day in along time that i'v not even wanted to log on, my mind knows how all this is going to play out.

The deciding and main factor for this is the complete silence over 5 days of any communication at all from ZoS to even try to calm the outrage and worries of their very own customers that i am pretty sure they are more than aware of, I find that down right disgusting behaviour from them and to me really shows their true colours and how they think of us.
It just shows how greed really has taken over.

Doctordarkspawn

No, don't ever add these into the game.

If I thought I had any other options I'd be gone. As it stands...eh.

I'm going to consider every red cent I give them carefully from now on. And that's about it. I'm not leaving, but I sure as all buggery dont -trust- them now.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

elvenmad wrote: »

Pretty sure i'm done now, after the first day in along time that i'v not even wanted to log on, my mind knows how all this is going to play out.

The deciding and main factor for this is the complete silence over 5 days of any communication at all from ZoS to even try to calm the outrage and worries of their very own customers that i am pretty sure they are more than aware of, I find that down right disgusting behaviour from them and to me really shows their true colours and how they think of us.
It just shows how greed really has taken over.

Yeah, that's where I've been for a couple days now.

DHale

If anyone thinks that an assistant manager or a manager gets to be involved in a business plan is very out of touch with all business and operations. Management is responsible for carrying out senior leadership decisions and day to day oversight of staff. Nothing more, in truth I had three managers under me each managing a department. I would go to a meeting held by my boss who happened to be the COO. I would not be asked my opinion and often these decisions were inefficient and fool hearty.

Guess what, even as a senior leader (on paper) I was responsible for carrying out executive decisions. Not making them and I would tell those manager what needed to be done and they would do it. I knew many of the decisions and plans were not sustainable as autocratic business models are top down organizations. I made the decision to move out of management after 16 years.

Also I want to be very clear when those boxes come out they will fly out of that crown store and that is why they are being put in it. If you want ZOS to not sell lock boxes don't buy them. I want any person reading this post to stand in a 7 11 or Circle K or am pm for 10 minutes to see if no one buys a scratch card or a lottery ticket. ZOS is a business and they would be foolish to not explore any and all revenue streams.

Your tin foil hats notwithstanding you... we have to make the decision of whether you will buy lock boxes or not. ( I won't be). You... we have no business making that decision for other people or diagnosing gambling addiction or utilizing your undergraduate degree in human psychology on human psychology. If only a little more MBA and little less BS you would get this and move on a just play the game.

For me I laughed at the blue glowing tigers and then the day they came out all I see are blue tigers here there everywhere I just shook my head... I laughed when the merchant and banker came out and every single dungeon I run there is some schmuck with a banker and or merchant... all wastes of money imo but no worse than buying a new I phone every year or standing in line on Black Friday for a store to open or voting for tax increases when they waste the money you already give them or even buying 5 dollar drinks at Starbucks.

Recremen

No, don't ever add these into the game.

DHale wrote: »

If anyone thinks that an assistant manager or a manager gets to be involved in a business plan is very out of touch with all business and operations. Management is responsible for carrying out senior leadership decisions and day to day oversight of staff. Nothing more, in truth I had three managers under me each managing a department. I would go to a meeting held by my boss who happened to be the COO. I would not be asked my opinion and often these decisions were inefficient and fool hearty.

Guess what, even as a senior leader (on paper) I was responsible for carrying out executive decisions. Not making them and I would tell those manager what needed to be done and they would do it. I knew many of the decisions and plans were not sustainable as autocratic business models are top down organizations. I made the decision to move out of management after 16 years.

Also I want to be very clear when those boxes come out they will fly out of that crown store and that is why they are being put in it. If you want ZOS to not sell lock boxes don't buy them. I want any person reading this post to stand in a 7 11 or Circle K or am pm for 10 minutes to see if no one buys a scratch card or a lottery ticket. ZOS is a business and they would be foolish to not explore any and all revenue streams.

Your tin foil hats notwithstanding you... we have to make the decision of whether you will buy lock boxes or not. ( I won't be). You... we have no business making that decision for other people or diagnosing gambling addiction or utilizing your undergraduate degree in human psychology on human psychology. If only a little more MBA and little less BS you would get this and move on a just play the game.

For me I laughed at the blue glowing tigers and then the day they came out all I see are blue tigers here there everywhere I just shook my head... I laughed when the merchant and banker came out and every single dungeon I run there is some schmuck with a banker and or merchant... all wastes of money imo but no worse than buying a new I phone every year or standing in line on Black Friday for a store to open or voting for tax increases when they waste the money you already give them or even buying 5 dollar drinks at Starbucks.

People buying the Dro-m'Athra Senche, the merchants, and the bankers are usually making reasonable decisions about their purchases based on their own determination of the item's value. I highly doubt you can't see the difference between that and a potentially-endless purchase of a gambling service. There's no reason to accept that the two models are interchangeable.

The_Undefined

No, don't ever add these into the game.

elvenmad wrote: »

Pretty sure i'm done now, after the first day in along time that i'v not even wanted to log on, my mind knows how all this is going to play out.

The deciding and main factor for this is the complete silence over 5 days of any communication at all from ZoS to even try to calm the outrage and worries of their very own customers that i am pretty sure they are more than aware of, I find that down right disgusting behaviour from them and to me really shows their true colours and how they think of us.
It just shows how greed really has taken over.

Trust me, I've been right there with you in that thought all day. After giving it some time to settle, I really think the best thing to do is see how ZOS responds to this with implementation. They're probably quiet, b/c they've already given all the information they have. There will be lootboxes, there will be exclusive items and past items, you can breakdown duplicate items to to a new currency and buy items, and they will be 400 crowns each. As a business, they'll want to see how the sales go.

The best way to really get them to notice how this affecting the community is to not buy them, but the problem with that is there will be a few with a ton of money or a larger group that will only buy one or two that will justify their business move. In either case, the only thing we can hope for now is they'll continue to provide player love through game content, premium features, and good content on the crown store.

In all honesty, even if they did make a post, would it really help at this point? They've already broken their word about their stance on lootboxes, so how could you really trust what they say at this point in response?

Rosveen

No, don't ever add these into the game.

MarkusLiberty wrote: »

What bothers me most about ZOS is its lack of ethics. We see this in how it knowingly releases updates with major bugs and how Cyrodiil has been largely ignored for two years. This is another example.

What i don't get is how upset people get over these crates, compared to stuff like the latest Elder Scrolls trading card game, a game built around the concept of buying booster packs and hoping you'll get the right cards for your deck. Its so weird seeing the elder scrolls community prasing Bethesda's Tes: Legends while going insane over Zenimax's cosmetic loot crates.

TCG/CCG have worked like this for as long as I can remember. Whether you like this model or not, you have to agree that Bethesda was upfront with it and every player has the opportunity to come into the game fully informed of what it entails. If you decide to play at all, it means you accept how if works. In my opinion, it isn't as damaging because it's honest instead of leading people on for two years, developing things one way and only then suddenly introducing questionable gambling practices. I don't boycott casinos and lotteries for the same reason: you know what you're getting into. Many of us didn't know ESO would end like this when we bought it. Could it be predicted? Probably, but not all of us are jaded MMO veterans aware of the warning signs.