CSGO? Overwatch? hell even TF2 is doing just fine.Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Just ignore trolls . Some people don't care if ZOS goes back on their word . They don't care if the cost of things go up and they just want to argue for argument sake . The facts remain , there is no game with this practice doing well , very much the opposite . Most everyone one of those games WAS doing well before fleecing customers . The stars are in alignment for F2P to show its ugly head next . How can we say that ? History with other MMOs ! You can't give people experience . You can't stop a troll from trolling either . Obviously if the majority of the room agrees on a issue and two or three are dismissive , you ignore the people with their heads in the sand ...
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »THIS IS HOW A GAME DIES.
Zenimax. You wanna earn my trust in a big way? Officially condemn this practice and scrap this idea. You dont wanna do that? I'm gonna advise everyone not to buy ***, not the nice DLC bundle, not the deals, not the cosmetics until you remove and condemn this practice.
I dont have much trust left but your pushin' it.
No its not
This is hyperbole.
Games don't die from lockboxes selling items you can't even trade with other players, esp items that are purely cosmetic.
yes it is, but its also been stated they will contain consumables and 'rare' crate only exclusive items, the only thing stated not included is Gear and Weapons.
I can see, as many others can, and have seen in other games, they will in the end contain the the most important gear progression items, which are classed as consumables, the upgrade mats ie: Alloys and Wax etc.
This also gives me a Deja vu feeling from other games which have done this as I have already noticed a decline in the drop rates of these items in game, and I farm a lot, every day and since last patch in my own experience there as been a noticeable difference
Slippery Slope Fallacy
I suggest you look it up.
Also unless you can provide actual Math for your last statement I bolded....You're not fooling anyone.
Not slippery slope. Inference based on experience.
Do you exit your house through the second-floor window? No, because previous experience has told you that, in all but the direst of emergencies, this isn't a good idea and the best plan is to walk out of the door as always.
Other people have seen what the introduction of lootboxes have done to other MMOs. Using that experience to suggest similar things might occur here is the opposite of a logical fallacy. It is reasoning.[/quote]
A slippery slope argument (SSA), in logic, critical thinking, political rhetoric, and caselaw, is a consequentialist logical device in which a party asserts that a particular result will probably (or even must inevitably) follow from a given decision or circumstance, without necessarily providing any rational argument or demonstrable mechanism for the likelihood of the assumed consequence. A slippery slope argument proposes that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant (usually negative) effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.[1] The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process that leads to the significant effect. This type of argument is sometimes used as a form of fear mongering, in which the probable consequences of a given action are exaggerated in an attempt to scare the audience. The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B. In a non-fallacious sense, including use as a legal principle, a middle-ground possibility is acknowledged, and reasoning is provided for the likelihood of the predicted outcome.
Like I said, Slippery Slope
By the way, the bolded part
We call that anecdotal fallacy
Rohamad_Ali wrote: »CSGO? Overwatch? hell even TF2 is doing just fine.Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Just ignore trolls . Some people don't care if ZOS goes back on their word . They don't care if the cost of things go up and they just want to argue for argument sake . The facts remain , there is no game with this practice doing well , very much the opposite . Most everyone one of those games WAS doing well before fleecing customers . The stars are in alignment for F2P to show its ugly head next . How can we say that ? History with other MMOs ! You can't give people experience . You can't stop a troll from trolling either . Obviously if the majority of the room agrees on a issue and two or three are dismissive , you ignore the people with their heads in the sand ...
LMAO ! Counter Strike is doing well ? An that's a MMO to you ? lol Overwatch just came out and started F2P right ? These are your examples ? Pff
Look at comparable size games . Everything FunCom made , Everything . Star Trek Onlime , Star Wars the old Republic . Go look up the health of those that went down this same path . Look at honest current game reviews . Hell , log into one there free now . See if you can find a group in 20 minutes . Even the new zones are dead .
Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »From the percentages I'm seeing, looks like ZOS might have a bit of a NGE on their hands. (67%)
Hope it works out better for ZOS heads than it did for Smed. Sony sold Smed right out from under him, the new owners sent him home, and he didn't get enough of crowd funding to do a 2D game.
Adding boxes to a game is nowhere NEAR or even in the same BALLPARK as the NGE was.....
It is if 67% look the other way. Unless of course they are as willing as Rubinfield was to get rid of the existing player base thinking they'll get a boat-load more.
Adding boxes to the game with pretty outfits and mounts and pets is not the same as changing the entire games combat system ENTIRELY and changing the game from 34 professions (classes) down to only 10. Please explain to me how someone riding around on a mount you cant get because you dont want to spend money is really breaking your game.
The NGE was quite literally game breaking, this is just fluff.
starkerealm wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »CSGO? Overwatch? hell even TF2 is doing just fine.Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Just ignore trolls . Some people don't care if ZOS goes back on their word . They don't care if the cost of things go up and they just want to argue for argument sake . The facts remain , there is no game with this practice doing well , very much the opposite . Most everyone one of those games WAS doing well before fleecing customers . The stars are in alignment for F2P to show its ugly head next . How can we say that ? History with other MMOs ! You can't give people experience . You can't stop a troll from trolling either . Obviously if the majority of the room agrees on a issue and two or three are dismissive , you ignore the people with their heads in the sand ...
LMAO ! Counter Strike is doing well ? An that's a MMO to you ? lol Overwatch just came out and started F2P right ? These are your examples ? Pff
Look at comparable size games . Everything FunCom made , Everything . Star Trek Onlime , Star Wars the old Republic . Go look up the health of those that went down this same path . Look at honest current game reviews . Hell , log into one there free now . See if you can find a group in 20 minutes . Even the new zones are dead .
Uh... Battleborn's the one that went F2P. I could have sworn Overwatch was a boxed purchase, like most Blizzard titles.
Also, Funcom... *shudders*
I did not expect you to understand the deeper meaning of what an addiction means for the person being addicted. That they do not have control over their behavior anymore, that it is an impulse control disorder.Ok Helen Lovejoy; if you can't handle box sales in a video game you can't handle being on the internet in the first place. In fact its safe to say you can't handle being anywhere at any given time in the United States since you'll be tempted by "chance"
Children are just one side of the coin - those can get addicted to gambling when exposed at a young age - the other side of the coin are people which are already gambling addicted or have a low level of self-control when it comes to things they want, even if they cannot afford those and it would bring them into an existence crisis or their family.
Impulse control disorder (ICD) is a class of psychiatric disorders characterized by impulsivity – failure to resist a temptation, urge or impulse that may harm oneself or others.
I understand the deeper meaning of it; I'm laughing at how absurd you're being by trying to say we shouldn't have any lock boxes because someone with ICD might play this game. Completely ignoring the fact that a person with ICD would have to deal with a myriad of other things in life before he even got to the point of playing this game. Basically you're using the "Think of the Children" argument for limiting something. Can't have Cokes, To much sugar in them, Think of the Children.....Someone might become addicted to ***, Lets ban it for everyone, Think of the Children....
hell....ESO is pretty violent; It might cause some kid to go on a murdering spree....Lets remove all fighting from the game cause Think of the Children.
She transitioned from an historian to an expert lawyer and now is in the psychologist phase...in just 22 pages
This thread is hurting my sides lmao.
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »CSGO? Overwatch? hell even TF2 is doing just fine.Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Just ignore trolls . Some people don't care if ZOS goes back on their word . They don't care if the cost of things go up and they just want to argue for argument sake . The facts remain , there is no game with this practice doing well , very much the opposite . Most everyone one of those games WAS doing well before fleecing customers . The stars are in alignment for F2P to show its ugly head next . How can we say that ? History with other MMOs ! You can't give people experience . You can't stop a troll from trolling either . Obviously if the majority of the room agrees on a issue and two or three are dismissive , you ignore the people with their heads in the sand ...
LMAO ! Counter Strike is doing well ? An that's a MMO to you ? lol Overwatch just came out and started F2P right ? These are your examples ? Pff
Look at comparable size games . Everything FunCom made , Everything . Star Trek Onlime , Star Wars the old Republic . Go look up the health of those that went down this same path . Look at honest current game reviews . Hell , log into one there free now . See if you can find a group in 20 minutes . Even the new zones are dead .
Uh... Battleborn's the one that went F2P. I could have sworn Overwatch was a boxed purchase, like most Blizzard titles.
Also, Funcom... *shudders*
Battleborn I dont think so. Evolve certainly did.
Overwatch still has the box purchase and even then people dont like it. If the game wasn't as stellar as it was you would practically see Blizzards stock droping. And trust me. ESO ain' anywhere near that level of stellar.
Im not entirely sure how some are arriving at this is "P2W".
Guys, they said the boxes would contain 1 consumable you could already get in the cash shop.
The rest of the items you could potentially get out of the boxes are cosmetic, IE outfit, mudcrab, mount.
If you get multiple you can exchange these items for gems you can save up to buy something else. IE: its not like people can spend hundreds of dollars to get the rares and sell them on guild stores.
I dont see anyone making this big fuss about consumables in the cash shop, as that would be the ONLY thing that would be the "win" part of the p2w argument.
Cosmetic items arent going to increase your damage numbers. Having a super rare mount isnt going to increase your chances of downing that boss you couldnt kill before owning it. So how exactly is this p2w?
starkerealm wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »CSGO? Overwatch? hell even TF2 is doing just fine.Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Just ignore trolls . Some people don't care if ZOS goes back on their word . They don't care if the cost of things go up and they just want to argue for argument sake . The facts remain , there is no game with this practice doing well , very much the opposite . Most everyone one of those games WAS doing well before fleecing customers . The stars are in alignment for F2P to show its ugly head next . How can we say that ? History with other MMOs ! You can't give people experience . You can't stop a troll from trolling either . Obviously if the majority of the room agrees on a issue and two or three are dismissive , you ignore the people with their heads in the sand ...
LMAO ! Counter Strike is doing well ? An that's a MMO to you ? lol Overwatch just came out and started F2P right ? These are your examples ? Pff
Look at comparable size games . Everything FunCom made , Everything . Star Trek Onlime , Star Wars the old Republic . Go look up the health of those that went down this same path . Look at honest current game reviews . Hell , log into one there free now . See if you can find a group in 20 minutes . Even the new zones are dead .
Uh... Battleborn's the one that went F2P. I could have sworn Overwatch was a boxed purchase, like most Blizzard titles.
Also, Funcom... *shudders*
Battleborn I dont think so. Evolve certainly did.
Overwatch still has the box purchase and even then people dont like it. If the game wasn't as stellar as it was you would practically see Blizzards stock droping. And trust me. ESO ain' anywhere near that level of stellar.
Yeah, I knew about Evolve... still ambivalent about that one, though. But that's just more about the deranged DLC practices killing my interest up front, not because it was using lucky bags.
Though, I could have sworn Battleborn's getting moved over to F2P.
Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »From the percentages I'm seeing, looks like ZOS might have a bit of a NGE on their hands. (67%)
Hope it works out better for ZOS heads than it did for Smed. Sony sold Smed right out from under him, the new owners sent him home, and he didn't get enough of crowd funding to do a 2D game.
Adding boxes to a game is nowhere NEAR or even in the same BALLPARK as the NGE was.....
It is if 67% look the other way. Unless of course they are as willing as Rubinfield was to get rid of the existing player base thinking they'll get a boat-load more.
Adding boxes to the game with pretty outfits and mounts and pets is not the same as changing the entire games combat system ENTIRELY and changing the game from 34 professions (classes) down to only 10. Please explain to me how someone riding around on a mount you cant get because you dont want to spend money is really breaking your game.
The NGE was quite literally game breaking, this is just fluff.
"Game breaking" is a matter of opinion. If you were there, you seen the SOE defence force come out in droves to back SOE at the time also via the forums. It came out later some of them were paid employees posting under an assumed name. Some of the ones that were actual later became "senators" in the NGE. I stayed for just about the entire 9 years, so while I surely didn't like it one bit, it just was not all that "game breaking" for me at least. What was game breaking was the 60-70% of the "goodbye" mails on my friends list. That one, SWG never rebounded from. You want that here?
It didn't and doesn't matter how large or even what the "CHANGE" was or is, it's the playerbase and how they handle or not handle it. SOE didn't get that thru their heads until T2 took over as Producer, and that was only after they did it all over again with the Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade in the NGE. And another 1/2 to 2/3rds took off, yet again and again, not coming back from that one either.
You honestly bought into the SOE arguments of "It wasn't the change, it was how we handled it" by not giving notice to the players that the game was changing?
Rohamad_Ali wrote: »CSGO? Overwatch? hell even TF2 is doing just fine.Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Just ignore trolls . Some people don't care if ZOS goes back on their word . They don't care if the cost of things go up and they just want to argue for argument sake . The facts remain , there is no game with this practice doing well , very much the opposite . Most everyone one of those games WAS doing well before fleecing customers . The stars are in alignment for F2P to show its ugly head next . How can we say that ? History with other MMOs ! You can't give people experience . You can't stop a troll from trolling either . Obviously if the majority of the room agrees on a issue and two or three are dismissive , you ignore the people with their heads in the sand ...
LMAO ! Counter Strike is doing well ? An that's a MMO to you ? lol Overwatch just came out and started F2P right ? These are your examples ? Pff
Look at comparable size games . Everything FunCom made , Everything . Star Trek Onlime , Star Wars the old Republic . Go look up the health of those that went down this same path . Look at honest current game reviews . Hell , log into one there free now . See if you can find a group in 20 minutes . Even the new zones are dead .
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »CSGO? Overwatch? hell even TF2 is doing just fine.Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Just ignore trolls . Some people don't care if ZOS goes back on their word . They don't care if the cost of things go up and they just want to argue for argument sake . The facts remain , there is no game with this practice doing well , very much the opposite . Most everyone one of those games WAS doing well before fleecing customers . The stars are in alignment for F2P to show its ugly head next . How can we say that ? History with other MMOs ! You can't give people experience . You can't stop a troll from trolling either . Obviously if the majority of the room agrees on a issue and two or three are dismissive , you ignore the people with their heads in the sand ...
LMAO ! Counter Strike is doing well ? An that's a MMO to you ? lol Overwatch just came out and started F2P right ? These are your examples ? Pff
Look at comparable size games . Everything FunCom made , Everything . Star Trek Onlime , Star Wars the old Republic . Go look up the health of those that went down this same path . Look at honest current game reviews . Hell , log into one there free now . See if you can find a group in 20 minutes . Even the new zones are dead .
Uh... Battleborn's the one that went F2P. I could have sworn Overwatch was a boxed purchase, like most Blizzard titles.
Also, Funcom... *shudders*
Battleborn I dont think so. Evolve certainly did.
Overwatch still has the box purchase and even then people dont like it. If the game wasn't as stellar as it was you would practically see Blizzards stock droping. And trust me. ESO ain' anywhere near that level of stellar.
Yeah, I knew about Evolve... still ambivalent about that one, though. But that's just more about the deranged DLC practices killing my interest up front, not because it was using lucky bags.
Though, I could have sworn Battleborn's getting moved over to F2P.
Apparently rumors circulated but were untrue.
Im not entirely sure how some are arriving at this is "P2W".
Guys, they said the boxes would contain 1 consumable you could already get in the cash shop.
The rest of the items you could potentially get out of the boxes are cosmetic, IE outfit, mudcrab, mount.
If you get multiple you can exchange these items for gems you can save up to buy something else. IE: its not like people can spend hundreds of dollars to get the rares and sell them on guild stores.
I dont see anyone making this big fuss about consumables in the cash shop, as that would be the ONLY thing that would be the "win" part of the p2w argument.
Cosmetic items arent going to increase your damage numbers. Having a super rare mount isnt going to increase your chances of downing that boss you couldnt kill before owning it. So how exactly is this p2w?
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »CSGO? Overwatch? hell even TF2 is doing just fine.Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Just ignore trolls . Some people don't care if ZOS goes back on their word . They don't care if the cost of things go up and they just want to argue for argument sake . The facts remain , there is no game with this practice doing well , very much the opposite . Most everyone one of those games WAS doing well before fleecing customers . The stars are in alignment for F2P to show its ugly head next . How can we say that ? History with other MMOs ! You can't give people experience . You can't stop a troll from trolling either . Obviously if the majority of the room agrees on a issue and two or three are dismissive , you ignore the people with their heads in the sand ...
CSGO is currently involved in a massive class action lawsuit over skin gambling... not exactly the definition of "fine" I'd cite.
I'd say being one of the most played games in the world would be something i'd say is fine.
Hell SWTOR a game a lot of you malign on this forum makes money hand over fist......
Yeah, but no one is actually suing TOR in a class action for unspecified damages. TOR's also a terrible game, so it has that going for it.
Said it before, say it again. Stop responding to him, he has nothing constructive to say. Look at his post. he did not even vote.
Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Prize boxes on Lord of the rings , Prize boxes in secret world , Age of Conan .. All dead after words .
http://massivelyop.com/2016/06/10/age-of-conans-revamped-item-shop-draws-ire-from-players/
Rohamad_Ali wrote: »CSGO? Overwatch? hell even TF2 is doing just fine.Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Just ignore trolls . Some people don't care if ZOS goes back on their word . They don't care if the cost of things go up and they just want to argue for argument sake . The facts remain , there is no game with this practice doing well , very much the opposite . Most everyone one of those games WAS doing well before fleecing customers . The stars are in alignment for F2P to show its ugly head next . How can we say that ? History with other MMOs ! You can't give people experience . You can't stop a troll from trolling either . Obviously if the majority of the room agrees on a issue and two or three are dismissive , you ignore the people with their heads in the sand ...
LMAO ! Counter Strike is doing well ? An that's a MMO to you ? lol Overwatch just came out and started F2P right ? These are your examples ? Pff
Look at comparable size games . Everything FunCom made , Everything . Star Trek Onlime , Star Wars the old Republic . Go look up the health of those that went down this same path . Look at honest current game reviews . Hell , log into one there free now . See if you can find a group in 20 minutes . Even the new zones are dead .
2nd most played game on steam only losing to DOTA, wich has rng boxes too
Check your own post, you didnt say "there is no MMO with this practice doing well..."
Overwatch isnt F2P.
And all those MMOS failed because RNG boxes...yeah right lmao.
Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Prize boxes on Lord of the rings , Prize boxes in secret world , Age of Conan .. All dead after words .
http://massivelyop.com/2016/06/10/age-of-conans-revamped-item-shop-draws-ire-from-players/
And all those MMOS failed because RNG boxes...yeah right lmao.
starkerealm wrote: »And all those MMOS failed because RNG boxes...yeah right lmao.
It's not that the MMOs are, automatically, financially less successful. They're not. Cryptic is making money hand over fist, and lockboxes are probably the only thing keeping the lights on for Champions Online.
But, they do horrific things to the game itself. They change the nature of the game, not instantly, into something far more predatory.
It's not that I think ZOS shouldn't institute lockboxes because it will lead to financial ruin. And it's not because they said they'd never do that and have now backtracked. That affects my willingness to trust anything they say going forward, but it isn't the reason I think this is a bad idea.
This is a bad idea, because it will kill the game I actually enjoy. Sure, ESO will live on, but it won't be the ESO you and I played. It'll be something far tackier. Something far more profit minded. Something with far less integrity.
And, that matters. Maybe not to you. But it does to me. It will change how the game is developed. It will change the focus of the ZOS's resources. You can say, "but you can't see the future," and that's true, but I've seen this before, many times. I do know what's next. I don't like it.
It's not the wrong choice for them financially, but it is the wrong choice for the game.
But, they've made it anyway, and *** the rest of us, right?
Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Prize boxes on Lord of the rings , Prize boxes in secret world , Age of Conan .. All dead after words .
http://massivelyop.com/2016/06/10/age-of-conans-revamped-item-shop-draws-ire-from-players/
Ummm
all 3 of the games you just listed are still alive.
In fact F2P with things like Lockboxes are why they're still alive.
Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Prize boxes on Lord of the rings , Prize boxes in secret world , Age of Conan .. All dead after words .
http://massivelyop.com/2016/06/10/age-of-conans-revamped-item-shop-draws-ire-from-players/
Ummm
all 3 of the games you just listed are still alive.
In fact F2P with things like Lockboxes are why they're still alive.
I have a bunch of other facettes as well - it is not even psychology, but psychiatry - ICD is a disorder, a medical condition and that means it belongs to psychiatry, and not psychology. I have some professional knowledge about addiction based processes in the signal pathways of the brain - I am an Bioinformatician. I had as well lessons in Jura (which is "law") in university, even this was just for 2 semesters, covering the basics of german BGB, HGB and laws related to employment, because I wanted to have some basic knowledge for when I will found my own company. Things like the history of the Rothschild family should be common knowledge - they were the dominating private bankers in the 19th century.
So what is to laugh about that?- I think you have no idea of any of this and that makes you trying to ridicule me.
arkansas_ESO wrote: »It's a bad system that's designed to take advantage of people with low impulse control. I'm all for them adding back in old crown store items (please come back, Mind-Shriven Skin...) but this system isn't the way to do it. Can't really see myself playing the game much longer if this is the way ZOS wants to act.
I have a bunch of other facettes as well - it is not even psychology, but psychiatry - ICD is a disorder, a medical condition and that means it belongs to psychiatry, and not psychology. I have some professional knowledge about addiction based processes in the signal pathways of the brain - I am an Bioinformatician. I had as well lessons in Jura (which is "law") in university, even this was just for 2 semesters, covering the basics of german BGB, HGB and laws related to employment, because I wanted to have some basic knowledge for when I will found my own company. Things like the history of the Rothschild family should be common knowledge - they were the dominating private bankers in the 19th century.
So what is to laugh about that?- I think you have no idea of any of this and that makes you trying to ridicule me.
Excuse me, english its not my first nor second language, thanks for the correction.
Sorry I just find funny that you are bringing all these "i am very smart" arguments into a videogame discussion, that medical condition one was just the most hilarious.