What do you think of Crown Store Random boxes/Lottery box?

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Lysette wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Panda_iMunch wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Panda_iMunch wrote: »

I think what seems to be the main issue is the way it might be implemented. That's where some valid points can be made. Maybe they should have it so that gold keys can sometimes drop key or chest fragments so that we have a way to gain these items if you put time into it.

That's actually a far worse situation. You'll often see people defending games like STO as not being pay to win, because you can grind for months to get all of the endgame crap from the store that is flat out, statistically, better than anything you can obtain without interacting with the real money currencies. And... it's technically true. Except, it is still pay to win. Because you will get massively better items from the lockboxes and the store than from any other source, and because of how the grind currency is mashed into the game everywhere, it creates a situation where there's a serious incentive for someone to buy it (from other players) with cash. The game becomes horrifically pay to win, even if you're getting someone else to foot the bill.

In this case, you'd see it used as a justification for items that were statistically better than anything else in the game getting dropped into the lucky bags. Maybe upgrade mats for a new, above legendary, gear quality, or new sets with very attractive bonus combinations. But, you'd have people babbling going, "but, it's not pay to win, because if you collect 10 key fragments, that drop a maximum of once per week, with a drop chance of 1:500k, then you can get a chest, and maybe get one of those awesome things." "Or spend 40 bucks on chests?" "Yeah, but it's not pay to win, see?"

I see your point if a game had a P2W model like that where the odds are fairly easy to see are stacked against the player. The issue? Elder Scrolls Online is not STO and has no items that offer a person with the best edge in the game. To bring the issues of those games to this one is pretty misleading as they have made it clear they will not put in a P2W item in the crown store and still to this day have not done so. What item in the crown store is a must have in order to top the charts? None from what I can tell.

And what makes you believe, they are telling the truth, if they lied so often already?

this old reddit post shows pretty well how ZOS is dealing with the truth - be surprised how "honest" they are:

Matt Firor - ESO "Game Director"
Aug 23, 2013
When asked if the game had anything "extra" beyond a subscription, Mr. Firor said:
"There won't be anything like 'bonus points' but we'll have a shop to buy kinda fun stuff and services too, like name changes and things like that. But it's not part of the core game, anything in the core game is included in the subscription price."

and a little later

Paul Sage - ESO "Creative Director"
Sep 7, 2013
"Sage confirms that Matt Firor simply picked his words poorly when he mentioned there would be a cash shop on top of the subscription fee. Sage says that Firor was talking about things like name changes – things you cannot normally do in the course of your gameplay. He even states that to his knowledge there is no cash shop."

Now what is this telling you about their ways to deal with the truth?

In fairness, the "no lockboxes" thing might have actually been Sage. I don't remember.

I meant something else - that what Matt Firor said in 2013 - doesn't that sound a lot like what we have now?- And why was Sage so after hiding this - I think that was planned in the long term already, and Matt pushed it out by accident - just like this "RNG box exclusive" thing might be something, what should not have been said yet - and he did nevertheless.

I can just not trust onto their word anymore - this is the problem with people who lie on a regular basis - you cannot believe in anything they say anymore.

Oh, yeah, no, I agree. Especially the part where Firor actually identified stuff that did end up in the crown store. Even if it took awhile.

They had the crown store in mind when the game went up for sale originally. I don't think that's a surprise to anyone. But they did lie about it.

elvenmad

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Lysette wrote: »

Archeage EU is in Amsterdam for example.

Well like I said they only lease them, some have changed server companies since I played the games, they use the cheapest they can usually. I know for a fact Tera still does.

clayandaudrey_ESO

No, don't ever add these into the game.

As far as I am concerned...


https://youtu.be/VScSEXRwUqQ

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Take this version instead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIrvSJwwJUE

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Just typing "opening boxes" and the game name in youtube shows you lots of videos how this RNG box thing is doing in practice and how little one gets from such boxes - I doubt that ZOS will be any more generous - generous is not really in their vocabulary, not even when stuff costs them nothing at all.

Recremen

No, don't ever add these into the game.

starkerealm wrote: »

What really drives me nuts here is... it means 2017 will be a bumper year for ESO... financially. But, we'll get nothing of value. All that cool content we're seeing down the pipeline? Yeah, that's just going to end up being delayed because it became more profitable to focus on the *** lucky bags. And 2018? Yeah, the game will be dead. Gone. There will still be newbies wandering through, wondering how you could possibly get those 9 trait sets, but it's going to decimate the community.

Here's the really messed up thing, ESO's community is not designed to take this kind of a hit. The decentralization means that if it starts loosing people anywhere, it will snowball fast. We saw this back at launch, when people were yelling about how the game was dead because half their guild rosters were empty.

This single thing will do far more damage than it looks like it will.

I'm all for doom and gloom in this situation, but let's have a more realistic doom and gloom. They actually have a very good content lineup for next year from what I hear and we have no reason to expect that a few gambling box rewards are going to seriously cut into development time. Analyzing the profitability and coming up with new items is child's play in terms of calculation time, the real issue here is that the "child's play" is literally children being given a way to gamble with real-world money. This isn't likely to affect our DLC schedule, but it IS likely to pollute our relationship with the service provider.

clayandaudrey_ESO

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Recremen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

What really drives me nuts here is... it means 2017 will be a bumper year for ESO... financially. But, we'll get nothing of value. All that cool content we're seeing down the pipeline? Yeah, that's just going to end up being delayed because it became more profitable to focus on the *** lucky bags. And 2018? Yeah, the game will be dead. Gone. There will still be newbies wandering through, wondering how you could possibly get those 9 trait sets, but it's going to decimate the community.

Here's the really messed up thing, ESO's community is not designed to take this kind of a hit. The decentralization means that if it starts loosing people anywhere, it will snowball fast. We saw this back at launch, when people were yelling about how the game was dead because half their guild rosters were empty.

This single thing will do far more damage than it looks like it will.

I'm all for doom and gloom in this situation, but let's have a more realistic doom and gloom. They actually have a very good content lineup for next year from what I hear and we have no reason to expect that a few gambling box rewards are going to seriously cut into development time. Analyzing the profitability and coming up with new items is child's play in terms of calculation time, the real issue here is that the "child's play" is literally children being given a way to gamble with real-world money. This isn't likely to affect our DLC schedule, but it IS likely to pollute our relationship with the service provider.

It will cut into Dev time. Believe it.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Recremen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

What really drives me nuts here is... it means 2017 will be a bumper year for ESO... financially. But, we'll get nothing of value. All that cool content we're seeing down the pipeline? Yeah, that's just going to end up being delayed because it became more profitable to focus on the *** lucky bags. And 2018? Yeah, the game will be dead. Gone. There will still be newbies wandering through, wondering how you could possibly get those 9 trait sets, but it's going to decimate the community.

Here's the really messed up thing, ESO's community is not designed to take this kind of a hit. The decentralization means that if it starts loosing people anywhere, it will snowball fast. We saw this back at launch, when people were yelling about how the game was dead because half their guild rosters were empty.

This single thing will do far more damage than it looks like it will.

I'm all for doom and gloom in this situation, but let's have a more realistic doom and gloom. They actually have a very good content lineup for next year from what I hear and we have no reason to expect that a few gambling box rewards are going to seriously cut into development time. Analyzing the profitability and coming up with new items is child's play in terms of calculation time, the real issue here is that the "child's play" is literally children being given a way to gamble with real-world money. This isn't likely to affect our DLC schedule, but it IS likely to pollute our relationship with the service provider.

Okay, then let me quote what I said earlier.

starkerealm wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

You people act like ZoS has a flippin gun to your temple.

So much drama and overreaction about an OPTIONAL feature of the game.

The ONLY one here that I can agree with though is Cazzy. At lease Cazzy had a rational reason for disliking the feature.

Okay, let me explain why this is a problem.

Luckybags make A LOT of money for an MMO. It comes with increased turnover, but these things will keep companies going. Cryptic was pretty open at one point saying that they had players who were spending over 5k a year on keys.

Why does this matter? I mean, more money for the game, right? Actually... not so much.

So, when you're evaluating, as a developer, what to upgrade or fix in your game, you need to evaluate what your ROI is going to be. In a normal MMO, there's a serious incentive to fix issues with the game. That's where your money is coming from, that's what you need to fix.

But, lucky bags exist in, almost total, isolation from that. You have people who will pay to roll the dice endlessly.

This means, for a developer, if they've got a bugged achievement that won't award a cool skin for finishing a dungeon, or a bug that causes the lucky bags to pay out at a higher than intended rate... they're going to fix the bag drop rate right now, because that affects their bottom line. The other issue stays low on the priorities list.

Similarly, if you're looking at developing new content, the stuff that's going into the bag will be worth A LOT more to you, as a developer, so it will get higher priority than actual new content.

Finally, there's a huge incentive to making the bags more attractive to consumers. Initially it's enough to say, "well, just cosmetic stuff," but inevitably you're going to see stuff going into those bags that's more valuable than what you can get in game, just to keep people coming back. Stuff like: unique sets, or consumables that do things you cannot replicate in game. Consider that the XP scrolls are already considerably better than the ambrosia pots you can get in game naturally, simply because they last longer.

Now, initially you can say those unique sets aren't pay to win because they're not better than the ones in game, but the serious temptation will be to go that route. Even when ZOS has said they won't at this point. They also said they wouldn't be sticking luckybags in the game AT ALL, and have now gone back on that promise.

What you're seeing here is, actually, the death of the game. The luckybags will make more money than the normal content, meaning they'll get priority, they'll become more important to the developers than the game itself, simply because it makes them more money.

They're not holding a gun to anyone's head, but the decision to include these will warp and corrupt the entire development pipeline, just like it has for every other MMO that implemented a similar system.

That explain it in a more mature way, to your satisfaction?

Rohamad_Ali

No, don't ever add these into the game.

I don't like to be doom and gloomy either so apologies for any negativity written while being upset at ZOS and going back on their word . No need to lose focus and panick until I see F2P on a announcement but also very dissatisfied with ZOS on this decision . Going to go try to have fun and forget for now .

RAGUNAnoOne

No, don't ever add these into the game.

It is going to be like the AOE caps though...

ObsidianMichi

No, don't ever add these into the game.

So far, this game was free from the predatory practices of other MMOs. Lockboxes are sign to me though, a sign things are moving in a bad direction. From Cryptic to Bioware to Funcom, it's always a sign that I should cancel my sub and mosey on.

I do not like gambling in my games, I especially do not like gambling in games that minors can play, and I've seen too many companies in other MMOs move over from developing cool stuff to buy to ensuring the only cool new items are lockbox. I could live with it just being items that were in the store previously and missed. However, start throwing around 'exclusives' and, well, it's a sign the boxes will become priority for new items and the cool items that they think the players will put down money for.

Price points for mounts and costumes were always a little rich for me, but I was willing to put up with it.

This? Nah. No mount or costume is worth $300 for a chance of getting it and I'm not comfortable continuing to give money to companies who engage in the practice.

Deandra

No, don't ever add these into the game.

This gives me a sick feeling in my stomach. I've poured hundreds of dollars into the game, and I've been subbed nonstop since release. But if one thing would ever make me walk away from this game, gambling boxes would be it.

Recremen

No, don't ever add these into the game.

starkerealm wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

What really drives me nuts here is... it means 2017 will be a bumper year for ESO... financially. But, we'll get nothing of value. All that cool content we're seeing down the pipeline? Yeah, that's just going to end up being delayed because it became more profitable to focus on the *** lucky bags. And 2018? Yeah, the game will be dead. Gone. There will still be newbies wandering through, wondering how you could possibly get those 9 trait sets, but it's going to decimate the community.

Here's the really messed up thing, ESO's community is not designed to take this kind of a hit. The decentralization means that if it starts loosing people anywhere, it will snowball fast. We saw this back at launch, when people were yelling about how the game was dead because half their guild rosters were empty.

This single thing will do far more damage than it looks like it will.

I'm all for doom and gloom in this situation, but let's have a more realistic doom and gloom. They actually have a very good content lineup for next year from what I hear and we have no reason to expect that a few gambling box rewards are going to seriously cut into development time. Analyzing the profitability and coming up with new items is child's play in terms of calculation time, the real issue here is that the "child's play" is literally children being given a way to gamble with real-world money. This isn't likely to affect our DLC schedule, but it IS likely to pollute our relationship with the service provider.

Okay, then let me quote what I said earlier.

starkerealm wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

You people act like ZoS has a flippin gun to your temple.

So much drama and overreaction about an OPTIONAL feature of the game.

The ONLY one here that I can agree with though is Cazzy. At lease Cazzy had a rational reason for disliking the feature.

Okay, let me explain why this is a problem.

Luckybags make A LOT of money for an MMO. It comes with increased turnover, but these things will keep companies going. Cryptic was pretty open at one point saying that they had players who were spending over 5k a year on keys.

Why does this matter? I mean, more money for the game, right? Actually... not so much.

So, when you're evaluating, as a developer, what to upgrade or fix in your game, you need to evaluate what your ROI is going to be. In a normal MMO, there's a serious incentive to fix issues with the game. That's where your money is coming from, that's what you need to fix.

But, lucky bags exist in, almost total, isolation from that. You have people who will pay to roll the dice endlessly.

This means, for a developer, if they've got a bugged achievement that won't award a cool skin for finishing a dungeon, or a bug that causes the lucky bags to pay out at a higher than intended rate... they're going to fix the bag drop rate right now, because that affects their bottom line. The other issue stays low on the priorities list.

Similarly, if you're looking at developing new content, the stuff that's going into the bag will be worth A LOT more to you, as a developer, so it will get higher priority than actual new content.

Finally, there's a huge incentive to making the bags more attractive to consumers. Initially it's enough to say, "well, just cosmetic stuff," but inevitably you're going to see stuff going into those bags that's more valuable than what you can get in game, just to keep people coming back. Stuff like: unique sets, or consumables that do things you cannot replicate in game. Consider that the XP scrolls are already considerably better than the ambrosia pots you can get in game naturally, simply because they last longer.

Now, initially you can say those unique sets aren't pay to win because they're not better than the ones in game, but the serious temptation will be to go that route. Even when ZOS has said they won't at this point. They also said they wouldn't be sticking luckybags in the game AT ALL, and have now gone back on that promise.

What you're seeing here is, actually, the death of the game. The luckybags will make more money than the normal content, meaning they'll get priority, they'll become more important to the developers than the game itself, simply because it makes them more money.

They're not holding a gun to anyone's head, but the decision to include these will warp and corrupt the entire development pipeline, just like it has for every other MMO that implemented a similar system.

That explain it in a more mature way, to your satisfaction?

I didn't at all mean to imply that you were being immature, my bad if it came off that way, but I am also not satisfied with the argument you quoted. Keep in mind, I am 100% in agreement that gambling boxes are a cancer that must be excised, I just don't agree with your train of thought regarding development time. They already have people working constantly on Crown Store items, and we have had a stellar DLC schedule despite that. A much more likely scenario is that all of the really good Crown Store cosmetics are going to wind up behind the gambling wall. Take the racial costume lines. The first two tiers would likely be normal Crown Store items, but they'd probably save the 3rd tier ones as gambling box exclusives. Same for any mount with a white or black fur color.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Recremen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

What really drives me nuts here is... it means 2017 will be a bumper year for ESO... financially. But, we'll get nothing of value. All that cool content we're seeing down the pipeline? Yeah, that's just going to end up being delayed because it became more profitable to focus on the *** lucky bags. And 2018? Yeah, the game will be dead. Gone. There will still be newbies wandering through, wondering how you could possibly get those 9 trait sets, but it's going to decimate the community.

Here's the really messed up thing, ESO's community is not designed to take this kind of a hit. The decentralization means that if it starts loosing people anywhere, it will snowball fast. We saw this back at launch, when people were yelling about how the game was dead because half their guild rosters were empty.

This single thing will do far more damage than it looks like it will.

I'm all for doom and gloom in this situation, but let's have a more realistic doom and gloom. They actually have a very good content lineup for next year from what I hear and we have no reason to expect that a few gambling box rewards are going to seriously cut into development time. Analyzing the profitability and coming up with new items is child's play in terms of calculation time, the real issue here is that the "child's play" is literally children being given a way to gamble with real-world money. This isn't likely to affect our DLC schedule, but it IS likely to pollute our relationship with the service provider.

Okay, then let me quote what I said earlier.

starkerealm wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

You people act like ZoS has a flippin gun to your temple.

So much drama and overreaction about an OPTIONAL feature of the game.

The ONLY one here that I can agree with though is Cazzy. At lease Cazzy had a rational reason for disliking the feature.

Okay, let me explain why this is a problem.

Luckybags make A LOT of money for an MMO. It comes with increased turnover, but these things will keep companies going. Cryptic was pretty open at one point saying that they had players who were spending over 5k a year on keys.

Why does this matter? I mean, more money for the game, right? Actually... not so much.

So, when you're evaluating, as a developer, what to upgrade or fix in your game, you need to evaluate what your ROI is going to be. In a normal MMO, there's a serious incentive to fix issues with the game. That's where your money is coming from, that's what you need to fix.

But, lucky bags exist in, almost total, isolation from that. You have people who will pay to roll the dice endlessly.

This means, for a developer, if they've got a bugged achievement that won't award a cool skin for finishing a dungeon, or a bug that causes the lucky bags to pay out at a higher than intended rate... they're going to fix the bag drop rate right now, because that affects their bottom line. The other issue stays low on the priorities list.

Similarly, if you're looking at developing new content, the stuff that's going into the bag will be worth A LOT more to you, as a developer, so it will get higher priority than actual new content.

Finally, there's a huge incentive to making the bags more attractive to consumers. Initially it's enough to say, "well, just cosmetic stuff," but inevitably you're going to see stuff going into those bags that's more valuable than what you can get in game, just to keep people coming back. Stuff like: unique sets, or consumables that do things you cannot replicate in game. Consider that the XP scrolls are already considerably better than the ambrosia pots you can get in game naturally, simply because they last longer.

Now, initially you can say those unique sets aren't pay to win because they're not better than the ones in game, but the serious temptation will be to go that route. Even when ZOS has said they won't at this point. They also said they wouldn't be sticking luckybags in the game AT ALL, and have now gone back on that promise.

What you're seeing here is, actually, the death of the game. The luckybags will make more money than the normal content, meaning they'll get priority, they'll become more important to the developers than the game itself, simply because it makes them more money.

They're not holding a gun to anyone's head, but the decision to include these will warp and corrupt the entire development pipeline, just like it has for every other MMO that implemented a similar system.

That explain it in a more mature way, to your satisfaction?

I didn't at all mean to imply that you were being immature, my bad if it came off that way, but I am also not satisfied with the argument you quoted. Keep in mind, I am 100% in agreement that gambling boxes are a cancer that must be excised, I just don't agree with your train of thought regarding development time. They already have people working constantly on Crown Store items, and we have had a stellar DLC schedule despite that. A much more likely scenario is that all of the really good Crown Store cosmetics are going to wind up behind the gambling wall. Take the racial costume lines. The first two tiers would likely be normal Crown Store items, but they'd probably save the 3rd tier ones as gambling box exclusives. Same for any mount with a white or black fur color.

The logic underpinning this is simply that when you have gamble boxes, they distort any return on investment analysis severely. Based on that alone, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it will stagnate the DLC schedule. I'm basing that on past experience, and watching developers go from a content every three months, to bi-annual at best, more than once, while feeding the lucky bag cancer. It's not an instant inevitability, but it is a serious risk.

Recremen

No, don't ever add these into the game.

starkerealm wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

What really drives me nuts here is... it means 2017 will be a bumper year for ESO... financially. But, we'll get nothing of value. All that cool content we're seeing down the pipeline? Yeah, that's just going to end up being delayed because it became more profitable to focus on the *** lucky bags. And 2018? Yeah, the game will be dead. Gone. There will still be newbies wandering through, wondering how you could possibly get those 9 trait sets, but it's going to decimate the community.

Here's the really messed up thing, ESO's community is not designed to take this kind of a hit. The decentralization means that if it starts loosing people anywhere, it will snowball fast. We saw this back at launch, when people were yelling about how the game was dead because half their guild rosters were empty.

This single thing will do far more damage than it looks like it will.

I'm all for doom and gloom in this situation, but let's have a more realistic doom and gloom. They actually have a very good content lineup for next year from what I hear and we have no reason to expect that a few gambling box rewards are going to seriously cut into development time. Analyzing the profitability and coming up with new items is child's play in terms of calculation time, the real issue here is that the "child's play" is literally children being given a way to gamble with real-world money. This isn't likely to affect our DLC schedule, but it IS likely to pollute our relationship with the service provider.

Okay, then let me quote what I said earlier.

starkerealm wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

You people act like ZoS has a flippin gun to your temple.

So much drama and overreaction about an OPTIONAL feature of the game.

The ONLY one here that I can agree with though is Cazzy. At lease Cazzy had a rational reason for disliking the feature.

Okay, let me explain why this is a problem.

Luckybags make A LOT of money for an MMO. It comes with increased turnover, but these things will keep companies going. Cryptic was pretty open at one point saying that they had players who were spending over 5k a year on keys.

Why does this matter? I mean, more money for the game, right? Actually... not so much.

So, when you're evaluating, as a developer, what to upgrade or fix in your game, you need to evaluate what your ROI is going to be. In a normal MMO, there's a serious incentive to fix issues with the game. That's where your money is coming from, that's what you need to fix.

But, lucky bags exist in, almost total, isolation from that. You have people who will pay to roll the dice endlessly.

This means, for a developer, if they've got a bugged achievement that won't award a cool skin for finishing a dungeon, or a bug that causes the lucky bags to pay out at a higher than intended rate... they're going to fix the bag drop rate right now, because that affects their bottom line. The other issue stays low on the priorities list.

Similarly, if you're looking at developing new content, the stuff that's going into the bag will be worth A LOT more to you, as a developer, so it will get higher priority than actual new content.

Finally, there's a huge incentive to making the bags more attractive to consumers. Initially it's enough to say, "well, just cosmetic stuff," but inevitably you're going to see stuff going into those bags that's more valuable than what you can get in game, just to keep people coming back. Stuff like: unique sets, or consumables that do things you cannot replicate in game. Consider that the XP scrolls are already considerably better than the ambrosia pots you can get in game naturally, simply because they last longer.

Now, initially you can say those unique sets aren't pay to win because they're not better than the ones in game, but the serious temptation will be to go that route. Even when ZOS has said they won't at this point. They also said they wouldn't be sticking luckybags in the game AT ALL, and have now gone back on that promise.

What you're seeing here is, actually, the death of the game. The luckybags will make more money than the normal content, meaning they'll get priority, they'll become more important to the developers than the game itself, simply because it makes them more money.

They're not holding a gun to anyone's head, but the decision to include these will warp and corrupt the entire development pipeline, just like it has for every other MMO that implemented a similar system.

That explain it in a more mature way, to your satisfaction?

I didn't at all mean to imply that you were being immature, my bad if it came off that way, but I am also not satisfied with the argument you quoted. Keep in mind, I am 100% in agreement that gambling boxes are a cancer that must be excised, I just don't agree with your train of thought regarding development time. They already have people working constantly on Crown Store items, and we have had a stellar DLC schedule despite that. A much more likely scenario is that all of the really good Crown Store cosmetics are going to wind up behind the gambling wall. Take the racial costume lines. The first two tiers would likely be normal Crown Store items, but they'd probably save the 3rd tier ones as gambling box exclusives. Same for any mount with a white or black fur color.

The logic underpinning this is simply that when you have gamble boxes, they distort any return on investment analysis severely. Based on that alone, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it will stagnate the DLC schedule. I'm basing that on past experience, and watching developers go from a content every three months, to bi-annual at best, more than once, while feeding the lucky bag cancer. It's not an instant inevitability, but it is a serious risk.

That's fair, this is my first MMO since WoW so I don't have a lot to compare it to.

Lara1701

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Most of us are adults and we work hard, just sell us the item straight up. Don't be a business skeever about it. A fool and their money may soon be parted, but if you're predatory with such people, it makes me have an even lower opinion of you.

This game already has a habit of not selling us desired content in a straight-forward manner. Just honestly sell us the content we want, don't demand we gamble and don't create fake shortages or supply and demand props by constantly removing items.

It's greasy and uncool. I love ESO. I detest the ZOS crown store and marketing team. Mad props to the people who make us this content, but the way it's marketed and sold to us (when it's even sold) is Jersey used car salesman from the 70s and it sucks.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Recremen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

What really drives me nuts here is... it means 2017 will be a bumper year for ESO... financially. But, we'll get nothing of value. All that cool content we're seeing down the pipeline? Yeah, that's just going to end up being delayed because it became more profitable to focus on the *** lucky bags. And 2018? Yeah, the game will be dead. Gone. There will still be newbies wandering through, wondering how you could possibly get those 9 trait sets, but it's going to decimate the community.

Here's the really messed up thing, ESO's community is not designed to take this kind of a hit. The decentralization means that if it starts loosing people anywhere, it will snowball fast. We saw this back at launch, when people were yelling about how the game was dead because half their guild rosters were empty.

This single thing will do far more damage than it looks like it will.

I'm all for doom and gloom in this situation, but let's have a more realistic doom and gloom. They actually have a very good content lineup for next year from what I hear and we have no reason to expect that a few gambling box rewards are going to seriously cut into development time. Analyzing the profitability and coming up with new items is child's play in terms of calculation time, the real issue here is that the "child's play" is literally children being given a way to gamble with real-world money. This isn't likely to affect our DLC schedule, but it IS likely to pollute our relationship with the service provider.

Okay, then let me quote what I said earlier.

starkerealm wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

You people act like ZoS has a flippin gun to your temple.

So much drama and overreaction about an OPTIONAL feature of the game.

The ONLY one here that I can agree with though is Cazzy. At lease Cazzy had a rational reason for disliking the feature.

Okay, let me explain why this is a problem.

Luckybags make A LOT of money for an MMO. It comes with increased turnover, but these things will keep companies going. Cryptic was pretty open at one point saying that they had players who were spending over 5k a year on keys.

Why does this matter? I mean, more money for the game, right? Actually... not so much.

So, when you're evaluating, as a developer, what to upgrade or fix in your game, you need to evaluate what your ROI is going to be. In a normal MMO, there's a serious incentive to fix issues with the game. That's where your money is coming from, that's what you need to fix.

But, lucky bags exist in, almost total, isolation from that. You have people who will pay to roll the dice endlessly.

This means, for a developer, if they've got a bugged achievement that won't award a cool skin for finishing a dungeon, or a bug that causes the lucky bags to pay out at a higher than intended rate... they're going to fix the bag drop rate right now, because that affects their bottom line. The other issue stays low on the priorities list.

Similarly, if you're looking at developing new content, the stuff that's going into the bag will be worth A LOT more to you, as a developer, so it will get higher priority than actual new content.

Finally, there's a huge incentive to making the bags more attractive to consumers. Initially it's enough to say, "well, just cosmetic stuff," but inevitably you're going to see stuff going into those bags that's more valuable than what you can get in game, just to keep people coming back. Stuff like: unique sets, or consumables that do things you cannot replicate in game. Consider that the XP scrolls are already considerably better than the ambrosia pots you can get in game naturally, simply because they last longer.

Now, initially you can say those unique sets aren't pay to win because they're not better than the ones in game, but the serious temptation will be to go that route. Even when ZOS has said they won't at this point. They also said they wouldn't be sticking luckybags in the game AT ALL, and have now gone back on that promise.

What you're seeing here is, actually, the death of the game. The luckybags will make more money than the normal content, meaning they'll get priority, they'll become more important to the developers than the game itself, simply because it makes them more money.

They're not holding a gun to anyone's head, but the decision to include these will warp and corrupt the entire development pipeline, just like it has for every other MMO that implemented a similar system.

That explain it in a more mature way, to your satisfaction?

I didn't at all mean to imply that you were being immature, my bad if it came off that way, but I am also not satisfied with the argument you quoted. Keep in mind, I am 100% in agreement that gambling boxes are a cancer that must be excised, I just don't agree with your train of thought regarding development time. They already have people working constantly on Crown Store items, and we have had a stellar DLC schedule despite that. A much more likely scenario is that all of the really good Crown Store cosmetics are going to wind up behind the gambling wall. Take the racial costume lines. The first two tiers would likely be normal Crown Store items, but they'd probably save the 3rd tier ones as gambling box exclusives. Same for any mount with a white or black fur color.

The logic underpinning this is simply that when you have gamble boxes, they distort any return on investment analysis severely. Based on that alone, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it will stagnate the DLC schedule. I'm basing that on past experience, and watching developers go from a content every three months, to bi-annual at best, more than once, while feeding the lucky bag cancer. It's not an instant inevitability, but it is a serious risk.

That's fair, this is my first MMO since WoW so I don't have a lot to compare it to.

Yeah, sorry. I've been through the lockbox dance with... at least four MMOs, and examined it in a bunch of others. It may not always be apparent, but I'm speaking from extensive experience.

Elsonso

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

Enodoc wrote: »

k9mouse wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for your thoughts on the upcoming Crown Crates, everyone. Just want to clarify a few points -

First, Crown Crates will be available later this year, and will only include cosmetic or convenience items. You'll find things like potions and other consumables, pets, costumes, and - yes - sometimes even mounts. This will give you a chance to try and obtain previous limited time offers, or even some very unique items as Matt mentioned. It will not include things like armor or weapons.

In the event you get an item that you already own, you can exchange it for a currency called Crown Gems which will allow you to buy a different item of your choice.

Now, Gina, show that you are honest at ZOS - and give us the chance table for these items - an honest one - this is the only thing to get an acceptance for this and to show that this is not just a blatant cash grab and preying on gambling addicts. Be honest with us and show us, that there is a reasonable chance to get these items, then we might accept it - but if it is like in Archeage with percentages of 0.1%, 0.01% and lower, then this cannot be accepted and some of us will never spend another dime on this game.

Knowing ZOS history with RNG, I expect the worst.

Well, it's their loss - it is about 180,000 crowns, which I will not spend on this game per year, and I would have played for long, but so I will leave when my ESO+ runs out in August 2017 and not spend a single US$ on this game until then - it's their loss.

Not to forget about that bunch of ESO gold edition packs, which I wanted to give as a gift to role play friends around christmas - this will as well not happen now. Nor do I need houses, and I would have bought like 12 of them - if not more - so be it - they do not want my money in a fair deal, they rather go for gamble.

I'm lucky my ESO+ is month by month so I've cancelled. Going to uninstalled tonight, which leaves loads of space for a new game. Might treat myself

Don't be rash and uninstall from game you love . Just don't support monetarily things that are cash grab . Speak out on social media for change and enjoy what you've already purchased . If game goes f2p and gameplay options get locked behind pay wall , then I would uninstall as it is hopeless at that point . Stay vigilant until the time comes my friend .

Indeed @Cazzy, these boxes will not be there in the next few weeks - and the last word about those might not be spoken yet as well. You can still enjoy the game and wait and see - the majority is against it in this poll, maybe ZOS will rethink their stand on this. It might just not be such a good idea as they thought it would be - and maybe they will get this from our reactions.

Points @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom to the poll. ZOS "claims" to listen to our feed back and the major of players are saying "By Oblivion, NO!" This is a good chance for ZOS to prove that they do indeed listen to their players.

Listening to feedback means they listen to feedback. It doesn't mean they will agree with the feedback they have listened to.

This is true. I suspect that they only really listen to feedback that is aligned with what they are going to do. For example, they are keenly interested in our ideas about how these boxes should look and what the gem should look like.. On the subject of whether they should do the boxes, they will really only care about feedback from the people who like the idea. They will listen to the rest of the people, but don't care because they know that it is not going to change..

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

@Recremen actually, as someone just reminded me, unless ZOS actually changes course quickly, we're already seeing a content slowdown. There hasn't been a DLC announced for this quarter. So it already looks like we're not getting any new content this year.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

starkerealm wrote: »

@Recremen actually, as someone just reminded me, unless ZOS actually changes course quickly, we're already seeing a content slowdown. There hasn't been a DLC announced for this quarter. So it already looks like we're not getting any new content this year.

Well it is just like I have predicted it - a reworked Craglorn is what we get. Solo-able or groups of 2-4 players. But that is not all - all other zones will get new world bosses and other group-oriented stuff added to the existing zones.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Lysette wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

@Recremen actually, as someone just reminded me, unless ZOS actually changes course quickly, we're already seeing a content slowdown. There hasn't been a DLC announced for this quarter. So it already looks like we're not getting any new content this year.

Well it is just like I have predicted it - a reworked Craglorn is what we get. Solo-able or groups of 2-4 players.

I kinda figured we'd get Murkmire along with Craglorn getting reworked... but I guess lucky bags win every time.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

It is kind of a lot of stuff what comes to the base game with One Tamriel - that is why there is no new DLC content.

Recremen

No, don't ever add these into the game.

starkerealm wrote: »

@Recremen actually, as someone just reminded me, unless ZOS actually changes course quickly, we're already seeing a content slowdown. There hasn't been a DLC announced for this quarter. So it already looks like we're not getting any new content this year.

We're getting One Tamriel, dueling, and full zone overhaul including Craglorn in the base-game patch, even IF they don't have additional DLC content I think that counts as new development.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Lysette wrote: »

It is kind of a lot of stuff what comes to the base game with One Tamriel - that is why there is no new DLC content.

I'm aware. But at the same time it's also zero genuinely new content. "Now, as a new player, you can go to Auridon." "But, I have a Dominion character." "I meant, Stonefalls, right, that was it." "But, I'm logged in on a Pact character right now." "Er... I meant Bangkorai, you can go to Bangkorai." "Will the story make sense?" "Nope. Not a lick. You'll need to run Glenumbra, Stormhaven, Rivenspire, and Alik'r, in that order for you to know what's going on."

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

I would be really a happy subscriber with that new content and One Tamriel - if ZOS would not have totally ruined it for me with this RNG box thing - this made me leave Archeage and I am leaving here as well once my ESO+ runs out, if they keep those boxes - and they will, I have no hope that they will change this - it will cost them quite some amount of players - but I guess, they do not need us anymore - these boxes will compensate by far for it - I will watch the drama unfold and by the time my ESO+ will run out (August 2017), I will have seen from Tamriel what I wanted to see - and then it will be time to move on.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Recremen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

@Recremen actually, as someone just reminded me, unless ZOS actually changes course quickly, we're already seeing a content slowdown. There hasn't been a DLC announced for this quarter. So it already looks like we're not getting any new content this year.

We're getting One Tamriel, dueling, and full zone overhaul including Craglorn in the base-game patch, even IF they don't have additional DLC content I think that counts as new development.

Honestly, the strongest argument in that list is Craglorn, because it represented content that most people really couldn't run. But, still, it's not actually new. You know?

I really expected we'd be getting Murkmire announced. And, I mean, we still could. But, it's still less new content, than we've got with a previous DLC turnover.

It's also possible when they're saying new veteran versions of all the dungeons, they actually do mean the Pt 2 for each dungeon that didn't get one yet. Which would be fantastic. But, the way that was all phrased was a bit unclear.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

starkerealm wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

It is kind of a lot of stuff what comes to the base game with One Tamriel - that is why there is no new DLC content.

I'm aware. But at the same time it's also zero genuinely new content. "Now, as a new player, you can go to Auridon." "But, I have a Dominion character." "I meant, Stonefalls, right, that was it." "But, I'm logged in on a Pact character right now." "Er... I meant Bangkorai, you can go to Bangkorai." "Will the story make sense?" "Nope. Not a lick. You'll need to run Glenumbra, Stormhaven, Rivenspire, and Alik'r, in that order for you to know what's going on."

yeah story-wise it might be a mess - but not all care for the story content that much - I certainly do not - I am more the open world sand-boxy type, who finds her own destiny in the game. I do not need the game to take me by the hand.

NewbieOKS

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Sorry to jump in...wow this thread already have a view of 9.6K+ meanwhile the thread just start yesterday... Also in reddit, this topic is going wild

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Lysette wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

It is kind of a lot of stuff what comes to the base game with One Tamriel - that is why there is no new DLC content.

I'm aware. But at the same time it's also zero genuinely new content. "Now, as a new player, you can go to Auridon." "But, I have a Dominion character." "I meant, Stonefalls, right, that was it." "But, I'm logged in on a Pact character right now." "Er... I meant Bangkorai, you can go to Bangkorai." "Will the story make sense?" "Nope. Not a lick. You'll need to run Glenumbra, Stormhaven, Rivenspire, and Alik'r, in that order for you to know what's going on."

yeah story-wise it might be a mess - but not all care for the story content that much - I certainly do not - I am more the open world sand-boxy type, who finds her own destiny in the game. I do not need the game to take me by the hand.

Ironically, I was really excited for this announcement. Until they added luckybags.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

NewbieOKS wrote: »

Sorry to jump in...wow this thread already have a view of 9.6K+ meanwhile the thread just start yesterday... Also in reddit, this topic is going wild

We are already in the disillusion phase, well, at least I am.