What do you think of Crown Store Random boxes/Lottery box?

NewBlacksmurf

No, don't ever add these into the game.

@elvenmad

ZOS doesn't know exactly what they're doing. If so half of the threads on the first 3 pages each week wouldn't exist.

Specific to the crown store and the loot crates....I think it's safe to assume that someone was tasked with checking the legality of it all but as history proves, ZOS didn't even check with Xbox and ps4 about their sub requirements.

When it comes to real money and things working or being of quality, this companies history isn't so great.

We will see how this turns out ....just pointing out that people overall aren't crazy on this.

Recremen

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Panda_iMunch wrote: »

Gods, the amount of paranoia for this non issue is just ridiculous. Many games have done this before and have been fine. If ZoS was going to make a P2W item or something like that, they would've done that ages ago, but I hate to tell yall that it's still a skill based game.

Even then, the couple of exclusive toys they'll put into the loot table is nothing new, subs got quite a few exclusive items. If you don't like the boxes, just don't buy it. It's a option in the end and will only serve to make more money for the company and improve the game a little more.

You're completely missing the point of this very real issue. The people who are against lockboxes don't want gambling for real money, period. ZOS is knowingly participating in exploiting a legal loophole related to online gambling, without which they would incur all the attenuating costs of running a gambling institution. This includes only being able to sell to adults of legal gambling age. While the model they are using avoids the legal classification of gambling, it is otherwise and obviously a gambling mechanic. Since there is no real age gate for the game, that means they are exposing literal children to gambling in all but the legal definition of the term. To be clear, that is a different category of problem from something like drug or alcohol references. It is very actually taking money, something of real-world legal value, away from minors, who are otherwise not allowed to participate in gambling.

It is also just as fair for players to say "we don't want gambling in this game" as it is for us to say things like "we don't want lore-breaking holidays in this game." ZOS listened to the latter bit of player feedback and there's no reason not to give the former bit of player feedback. I don't care if you get tired of seeing it or think we should just suck it up, we have no obligation to make your forum experience easier at the expense of our own legitimate concerns.

One of the real kickers of this is that they're moving away from RNG in-game with the Undaunted Pledges/Veteran Dungeon/Monster Mask overhaul, only to in the same patch introduce real-world gambling features. Players have made it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that we don't like RNG or gambling, so the idea that we're suddenly going to find fun in gambling on items with real-world money is just laughable. There is no point in the production of this gambling system where a developer might have thought "ah, yes, and the players will certainly enjoy gambling now that it's for real-world money instead of Undaunted keys/boss drops/Alliance Points". The developers aren't idiots and they know that this isn't going to add to the entertainment value of their product. This was a decision made in spite of player feedback, not because of it, and over 2/3rds of the forum voters have made it clear that they're rightfully ticked.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

As much as I hate "think of the children" arguments, @Recremen is right, here.

Stiltz

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

It is not gambling. Not even close. What everybody seems to be completely ignoring is the fact that every single box will have a set amount of items. I can almost guarantee you that the worth of the items in the box will match or exceed the value of the box (400 crowns) whether you get a rare bonus item or not.

What you're taking a chance on is getting a BONUS item, with different levels of rarity. If you take your chances and lose you do NOT end up with an empty box.

Abeille

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

Stiltz wrote: »

I can almost guarantee you that the worth of the items in the box will match or exceed the value of the box (400 crowns) whether you get a rare bonus item or not.

I can't think of a single MMO where that's how they did it. On all MMOs I played with this kind of thing, you would get mostly junk most of the time. And ZOS didn't say that the worth of the items in the box will match or exceed the value of the box.

I hope they do it like you are saying, but if you can "almost guarantee" they will, I can "almost guarantee", from experience, that they won't.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Stiltz wrote: »

It is not gambling. Not even close. What everybody seems to be completely ignoring is the fact that every single box will have a set amount of items. I can almost guarantee you that the worth of the items in the box will match or exceed the value of the box (400 crowns) whether you get a rare bonus item or not.

What you're taking a chance on is getting a BONUS item, with different levels of rarity. If you take your chances and lose you do NOT end up with an empty box.

Well, we we let a judge rule about this - and normally they tend to rule in favor of those, which are taken advantage of in Germany. I would not bet a dime on that ZOS will get away with this in germany. Especially because this is an abusive scheme which is used by many free 2 play games and immoral - but those do not have their server in germany - ZOS has and this makes them vulnerable.

I doubt that ZOS has even looked into possible local legal issues which could be related to this - and those are at least 2 in germany which are standing against this.

There are a couple of others, which come to mind - like not stating the actual costs of a product - not stating the actual chance to get an item and other such things - it will be a bunch of violations to judge about.

Cazzy

No, don't ever add these into the game.

gamble
ˈɡamb(ə)l/
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for money; bet.
"he gambles on football"
synonyms: bet, wager, place a bet, lay a bet, stake money on something, back the horses, try one's luck on the horses.
2. take risky action in the hope of a desired result.
"he was gambling on the success of his satellite TV channel"
synonyms: take a chance, take a risk, take a leap in the dark, leave things to chance, speculate, venture, buy a pig in a poke.

Desired result being the exclusive item or limited time offer you missed.

milkbox

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

RE: International legality- Ebay has allowed sellers to offer things called "Mystery Boxes" or "Surprise Boxes" for many years, and it is completely legal. I just checked on Ebay in several countries (including Germany) and they also have Surprise Boxes for sale.

As a precedent, I think this offers a compelling argument that a virtual version of the same concept would not be illegal.

It doesn't make it "good", but I don't think this can be shot down as a criminal act.

Hurbster

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Makes my decision as to resub or not a lot easier.

Rohamad_Ali

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Stiltz wrote: »

It is not gambling. Not even close. What everybody seems to be completely ignoring is the fact that every single box will have a set amount of items. I can almost guarantee you that the worth of the items in the box will match or exceed the value of the box (400 crowns) whether you get a rare bonus item or not.

What you're taking a chance on is getting a BONUS item, with different levels of rarity. If you take your chances and lose you do NOT end up with an empty box.

gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1.
play games of chance for money; bet.
"she was fond of gambling on cards and horses"
synonyms: bet, place/lay a bet on something, stake money on something, back the horses, game; informalplay the ponies
"he started to gamble more often"
2.
take risky action in the hope of a desired result.
"the British could only gamble that something would turn up"
take a chance, take a risk

Also how could YOU guarantee anything for ZOS ? You know as soon as this drops the forum complaints about a worthless box opened will start day one . Now THAT I can guarantee .

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Stiltz wrote: »

It is not gambling. Not even close. What everybody seems to be completely ignoring is the fact that every single box will have a set amount of items. I can almost guarantee you that the worth of the items in the box will match or exceed the value of the box (400 crowns) whether you get a rare bonus item or not.

What you're taking a chance on is getting a BONUS item, with different levels of rarity. If you take your chances and lose you do NOT end up with an empty box.

I don't think anyone's worried about an empty box. It's that the contents will be things that are inhernently non-valuble to players. Like a mix of tripots, soul gems and repair kits.

Also, you can't guarantee that. I can't think of a single MMO that actually pays out the full value of their lockbox every time. Now, I also can't think of a single other MMO that pays out it's entire sub fee as a cash shop stipend either. So, it's possible, and if true would do a lot to ameliorate my feelings on the subject of the grab bags. But, as it stands, I am still extremely suspicious of this because I've seen these things go pear shaped too many times in the past.

Cazzy

No, don't ever add these into the game.

@Rohamad_Ali Great minds think alike! I just posted the definition too

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

milkbox wrote: »

RE: International legality- Ebay has allowed sellers to offer things called "Mystery Boxes" or "Surprise Boxes" for many years, and it is completely legal. I just checked on Ebay in several countries (including Germany) and they also have Surprise Boxes for sale.

As a precedent, I think this offers a compelling argument that a virtual version of the same concept would not be illegal.

It doesn't make it "good", but I don't think this can be shot down as a criminal act.

As I recall, there's actually a special case for grab bags which removes them from traditional gambling laws. It's also how a lot of MMOs skirt gambling legislation. "You're getting something, and we say it's worth what you paid for it, even if it's really not."

Recremen

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Stiltz wrote: »

It is not gambling. Not even close. What everybody seems to be completely ignoring is the fact that every single box will have a set amount of items. I can almost guarantee you that the worth of the items in the box will match or exceed the value of the box (400 crowns) whether you get a rare bonus item or not.

What you're taking a chance on is getting a BONUS item, with different levels of rarity. If you take your chances and lose you do NOT end up with an empty box.

I get what you're trying to say, but you forget that most of the items in the box do not actually have a value. Except in exceptionally rare edge case circumstances, people are not buying the Crown Store consumable items. They are not using the Crown Store consumable items. Those items do not have a value and no amount of them is going to raise the value of the boxes. No amount of Crown Store Poisons or Dye Stamps or Riding Lessons are going to be useful (have value) for a typical player. The inclusion of random useless consumables is just a smokescreen to further obfuscate the gambling nature of the transaction and, for especially gullible customers, increase confidence and therefore willingness to bid. The items that typical customers would actually seek ARE the "bonus items", and since it's not a direct sale it is very much still gambling. Not just "even close" to gambling, it is actual gambling. Everything from guaranteed worthless consumables to the Crown Gems is just making it gambling with extra steps.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

milkbox wrote: »

RE: International legality- Ebay has allowed sellers to offer things called "Mystery Boxes" or "Surprise Boxes" for many years, and it is completely legal. I just checked on Ebay in several countries (including Germany) and they also have Surprise Boxes for sale.

As a precedent, I think this offers a compelling argument that a virtual version of the same concept would not be illegal.

It doesn't make it "good", but I don't think this can be shot down as a criminal act.

we will see that - it would already be a success if an "einstweilige Verfügung" would be issued and the servers go down for a couple of months in Frankfurt - that will teach ZOS.

We do not have a precedence system in Germany - every judge is independent and decides on his own.

Recremen

No, don't ever add these into the game.

This is worse than not having jungle in Cyrodiil.

Korah_Eaglecry

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

As long as it remains cosmetic Im fine with it. But Im doubtful itll stay cosmetic. Theres going to be some Corporate Stoog that wants more lucrative money making items in these boxes.

Thevampirenight

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

As long as it remains cosmetic Im fine with it. But Im doubtful itll stay cosmetic. Theres going to be some Corporate Stoog that wants more lucrative money making items in these boxes.

Possible, but hopefully this will not happen. Hopefully it is run by someone that does care.

Enodoc

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

I don't think I understand why people are threatening to quit over this. If you don't like the idea of loot boxes, don't buy them. Your gameplay will not be affected by you not having something you didn't have before.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

As long as it remains cosmetic Im fine with it. But Im doubtful itll stay cosmetic. Theres going to be some Corporate Stoog that wants more lucrative money making items in these boxes.

Possible, but hopefully this will not happen. Hopefully it is run by someone that does care.

A hope that is already hobbled by the fact that the lucky bags are happening at all, especially after explicit promises that they would not.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Well, as far as ebay goes - this would be against their own policies - see here:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-bonus-prize-giveaway-raffle.html

"We don't allow listings that sell an opportunity to win an item or prize either by chance or in connection with a skill contest.

Specifically, we don't allow listings that promote giveaways, lotteries, sweepstakes, random drawings, raffles, contests, or prizes. These types of promotions are highly regulated and may be unlawful in many states."

Well, ebay seems to know what laws are

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Enodoc wrote: »

I don't think I understand why people are threatening to quit over this. If you don't like the idea of loot boxes, don't buy them. Your gameplay will not be affected by you not having something you didn't have before.

A lot of us have come from games where the developers have abused systems like this, and began with the same, exact, promises.

And, because, this will, in fact, tank the game's development. It will distort the development priorities, and undermine the game itself.

People are planning to leave over this, because they take it that seriously.

Finally, this is an utter betrayal of a promise the developers made at launch, and reaffirmed when TU happened. That we wouldn't get these luckybag systems in game. And, I'll be honest, that was a non-trivial factor in my willingness to play and support ESO. So, when they're saying, "hah, well, just a little bit" you can probably understand why I'm suddenly in a very different position than I was 24 hours ago.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Enodoc wrote: »

I don't think I understand why people are threatening to quit over this. If you don't like the idea of loot boxes, don't buy them. Your gameplay will not be affected by you not having something you didn't have before.

It is immoral and illegal in my home country - simple as that. and not just a mishap, but a crime which can be punished with up to 10 years in prison in severe cases (like it could be if tens of thousands of people are abused with this scam scheme of gambling boxes).

Recremen

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Enodoc wrote: »

I don't think I understand why people are threatening to quit over this. If you don't like the idea of loot boxes, don't buy them. Your gameplay will not be affected by you not having something you didn't have before.

You of all people should understand that some things just don't fit the climate of the game and that players have a right to make requests and submit feedback about it. Many players think that gambling has no place in this game, just like many people think that ESO should be consistent with the rest of the Elder Scrolls lore. It's absolutely not a matter of just not buying lootboxes, it is setting a standard for the relationship we have as customers with the service providers. A huge number of us do NOT want to see gambling as one of the services they offer, period, never mind including gambler-exclusive items in the game.

Korah_Eaglecry

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

Enodoc wrote: »

I don't think I understand why people are threatening to quit over this. If you don't like the idea of loot boxes, don't buy them. Your gameplay will not be affected by you not having something you didn't have before.

Youre taking their word at face value. Which is your choice. But others can see the writing on the wall here. What they say now can change in 6 months. If these boxes arent selling like hot cakes. Its a safe bet theyll start adding things in that will get people dropping serious money. Ive seen it in other games. And Im not going to be surprised to see it introduced to this game.

Morimizo

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

Enodoc wrote: »

I don't think I understand why people are threatening to quit over this. If you don't like the idea of loot boxes, don't buy them. Your gameplay will not be affected by you not having something you didn't have before.

I wouldn't mind if these were costing in-game gold; but using real money (converted to crowns), I will not trust them to not abuse the RNG system, and why should I? The temptation is too great, especially since there probably will be no listing of chance to win numbers or exact item lists of what can be won.

Be an "Honest Merchant, TRUST THIS ONE!", as the friendly neighborhood Khajiit trader says. Offer a product that the customer knows EXACTLY what they're getting, for how much.

Panda_iMunch

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

Now what I can gather from this post is that this lock box system, the main issue is that it will tarnish the reputation of the game by having this feature in it. It's hard to predict the outrage of the hive mind as other games, like Overwatch and League of Legends, have a similar system and still hold a great reputation.

I think what seems to be the main issue is the way it might be implemented. That's where some valid points can be made. Maybe they should have it so that gold keys can sometimes drop key or chest fragments so that we have a way to gain these items if you put time into it.

As to the issue that it will take their time and effort away from improving the game, the same was said with the crown store and yet they still release fixes, new features, and more content while fixing old stuff. Heck, did yall forget this loot box info was released with the other news about dueling, weapon ults, Craglorn reworks, new vet dungeons, new sets. etc? It's fairly clear that it hasn't taken away their whole focus. The only major stiff in attention came with the B2P model and they had to put more purchasable items in game or risk going under.

Anther issue raised is that this is an RNG system that is not wanted. This is somewhat misleading as, yes, people want less RNG, but in the sense that it is more fair. For example, shuffle not being a chance to dodge (which is still debatable) or how there is training and prosperous in the loot take for helms and shoulders even at max level. These are issues as they have an actual impact on combat and numbers. These loot boxes? The best that can come out of it is a new toy or some low grade consumables that can be out classes. That said, it's still and RNG system that is not wanted by some and I say that they should put in a in-game way to get these boxes to make it fair for people with less money to blow than others.

Preyfar

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Lysette wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf, @Dromede is mistaken. There's actual video out of Matt Firor's presentation that contradicts the initial bullet points that got posted to Reddit. Now, it's possible that Firor mispoke... and if that's the case, he needs to clarify it. But, right now? No, there's going to be stuff unique to the bags; unavailable elsewhere.

Matt Firor called it "super special mounts" what is exclusive to RNG boxes - it's cash grab behind a gambling wall.

Falling and games of chance only really apply if people don't win something. Players have nothing to lose from these as they're guaranteed to win something. Like the blind grab bags stores sell or the Kinder Eggs popular in Germany. It's not illegal... it's just a bad idea with the current implementation.

Dracane

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

I see no problem with this.
People who bought them when these items were limited sales might feel betrayed. But keep in mind, there are players who simply could not play during that time due to personal problems. It's not fair for them either. I myself wasn't able to play when the elven hero costume was for sale, even though I wouldn't have hesitated a second to buy it.

These boxes give no advantages to anyone, so what's all this non-sense about ? Let people give all their money for a RNG game it's their loss when they are unlucky, nobody elses
The only downside I see, is that there will be objects that only drop from these boxes (confirmed by Matt Firor) The only ones who will dislike this are strict collectorsand I don't know any myself.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Morimizo wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I don't think I understand why people are threatening to quit over this. If you don't like the idea of loot boxes, don't buy them. Your gameplay will not be affected by you not having something you didn't have before.

I wouldn't mind if these were costing in-game gold; but using real money (converted to crowns), I will not trust them to not abuse the RNG system, and why should I? The temptation is too great, especially since there probably will be no listing of chance to win numbers or exact item lists of what can be won.

Be an "Honest Merchant, TRUST THIS ONE!", as the friendly neighborhood Khajiit trader says. Offer a product that the customer knows EXACTLY what they're getting, for how much.

Indeed, we have a law for this as well, which exactly describes how prices have to be declared for products and services - it is called Preisangabenverordnung - there is a law for everything in germany, and another law which explains this law and then another governmental issue which tells how to put a law into practice - very very detailed in every aspect.

The first is often called Ergänzende Bestimmungen zum Gesetz über ... and the 3rd is called Durchführungsverordnung zum Gesetz über ... or Durchführungsverordnung zur Ergänzenden Bestimmung zum Gesetz über ... - there is pretty much nothing what is not covered by a law - including the precise functionality of a toilet, how fast the flushing water has to be and even exact measurements for the body used to simulate poop in test environments to test the toilets functionality - we leave nothing to chance in Germany.