What do you think of Crown Store Random boxes/Lottery box?

GhostwalkerLD

No, don't ever add these into the game.

lordrichter wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

you want to play..... you pay. let's go back to the days when you paid by the hour.

Maybe not by the hour, but I am a proud member of an increasingly small minority that would gladly pay a required subscription to ESO if it meant absolutely no cash shop. All costumes, pets, and mounts available in the game for gold, or as rewards for quests and achievements. Barber shop function in the game for gold, or maybe as the result of gold and a task quest in the case of the Race/Class/Alliance/Name/etc changes.

I can't say whether ESO would be better today if they had stuck with a subscription, but I can say that the thought that they would spend more and more development effort on marginal Crown Store stuff would never even enter my head.

(Edit: As it is today, I question whether I want to pay a subscription to a game that is becoming more and more interested in marginal Crown Store stuff....)

This. So much this...

GhostwalkerLD

No, don't ever add these into the game.

BurningLobster wrote: »

Dear ESO staff,

I am the player you wanna target with these things. I like having "the best stuff" and I am not shy about impulse purchases. I have spent more money than I care to talk about on pets, mounts and costumes, though I did not regret my choices as I thought I would be playing this game for far longer. As of the time that I heard about these gamble boxes, I've stopped buying crowns. I am still a subscriber and I WANT to keep playing, but for my own sake, once those boxes go in, I'm gonna have to stop. When this goes live, you are going to lose me as a customer, and here is why;

I have been through this before with SW:TOR. I know where it leads and I know what the game turns into... I am sure some people will still have blast, but it ruins it for me. Why, you ask? Reason one is because looking cool matters. It matters to you, it matters to me and it matters to just about every player in the game to one degree or another... even if it's not something you care about overly much, chances are you care because you are a visual creature playing a visual game and you aren't gonna wanna look at something that doesn't personally please/amuse/satisfy you. Reason two is because I feel as though this will change the nature of the game development from one that attempts to expand upon a good game that happens to be a great product... into a product that has a good game somewhere in there.

To expand on point one, this is a social game, by it's design (Massive Multiplayer kinda implies that). In social interactions, something like 70% of the communication done is non-verbal... and so instead of body language, posture, facial expressions and etc. We have things like character design, personalities, emotes and outfits. To those of us who enjoy socializing and even RPing (in a ROLE PLAYING game, who woulda thunk it?) how we appear fills in as much of that 70% as possible. To us, those aren't "just" visuals... those are elements of our character, the same as the weapon set you use or the build you run.

Getting back to my larger point, I have stopped buying crowns because I am no longer feeling like this is a long term game for me. It changed it from something I could see myself playing for the next couple of years into something I could see myself playing for the next couple of months. I haven't maxed CP, I have barely touched PvP and I still have a lot of Craglorn to see... not to mention I haven't even started with the Veteran stuff, whatever the heck that stuff actually is. I still have lots of this game to see, and where before the announcement I was eager to see it all and get all manner of Achievements... now it feels like I am just waiting for something better to come along. I no longer feel like I am being treated like a customer and am instead being desired as a "whale". You don't want to sell me a quality product at set rate... and no amount of justification will ever excuse the fact that it is your desire to charge people more (on average) while giving them the same product.

There is the truth, in a nutshell. You aren't treating this like a game any longer. You are treating it like a product. You aren't trying to do anything with this move but maximize profit... and I am sure you will succeed. I am sure you'll make money and I am sure some customers will love running around on their exclusive mounts... in an ever more empty world. Content will be created with the idea of getting people to spend money on the boxes, as opposed to spending time out in the world. That's how it works when you place the idea of profit before everything... and I know this letter won't change a damned thing, but I wanted to add my voice to those who were and are upset. I enjoy this game and wanted to have it be my "go to" game for a while to come... but I've been through this once before and have no desire to go through it again.


- Another Customer

P.S. You stop this nonsense right now, and I'll happily remain a loyal customer... even more so than before as you were willing to listen!

Well said!

anitajoneb17_ESO

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Synfaer wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

we are dealing with (possibly) two groups of people (could be more).... the ones who had this great idea for a game and the ones with the money to make it happen.

This isn't about paying the piper, it's about raw, unmitigated, greed.

This is not a game that was suffering for players, as much as some idiots in youtube comment sections wanted to cry about how the game was dying. ZOS was getting their money. People were paying for the new content, maybe they were buying it, maybe they were subscribing.

So, either ZOS was seriously undercharging for their dev costs, or someone higher up the food chain got greedy. I'm inclined to think it was the latter.

he who pays the piper calls the tune.

and the tune being called for is 'monetize'

raw, unmitigated, greed?

welcome to the world.

It may be of interest to ZOS & others that many people play games to escape for a time this sort of crap in the 'real' world.

.

But devs are part of the "real world", you know... this is their RL job... to earn money to buy things... unless there's been a worldmeld, and in fact Matt Firor is Molag Bal, Rich Lambert is Sheogorath, Eric Wrobel is Mannimarco and Gina Bruno is Meridia ?

babedenny

No, don't ever add these into the game.

SantieClaws wrote: »

This one she wonders if Schrödinger's khajitt may be found in one of these boxes?

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

best not to open it.

Synfaer

No, don't ever add these into the game.

duplicate post

.

Synfaer

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Synfaer wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

we are dealing with (possibly) two groups of people (could be more).... the ones who had this great idea for a game and the ones with the money to make it happen.

This isn't about paying the piper, it's about raw, unmitigated, greed.

This is not a game that was suffering for players, as much as some idiots in youtube comment sections wanted to cry about how the game was dying. ZOS was getting their money. People were paying for the new content, maybe they were buying it, maybe they were subscribing.

So, either ZOS was seriously undercharging for their dev costs, or someone higher up the food chain got greedy. I'm inclined to think it was the latter.

he who pays the piper calls the tune.

and the tune being called for is 'monetize'

raw, unmitigated, greed?

welcome to the world.

It may be of interest to ZOS & others that many people play games to escape for a time this sort of crap in the 'real' world.

.

It may be of interest to you that the real world always wins because you have to come back to it.

The reality is that they are a business and are here to earn money for investors. You can escape into the game, but they can't escape the bills or the investors. They real world doesn't go away just because you hide.

Who said i was trying to hide? Its more like a time-out.
I gather from your statement that you play this game for a competitive challenge, thats fine, a lot of people do but you must realize that other people play for other reasons...social, entertainment and even distraction.
The reality is that they are a business that created and sold a product to their customers that promised to deliver a specified experience defined by their sales pitch. They can escape their financial burdens by finding increasingly intrusive ways to part customers from their money but they can't escape the fact that this path will *** off the majority of their customer base.

And what this rubbish about the real world always wins? Did i challenge it to a duel?... Stab stab... real world dies...Oops

Abeille

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Synfaer wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

we are dealing with (possibly) two groups of people (could be more).... the ones who had this great idea for a game and the ones with the money to make it happen.

This isn't about paying the piper, it's about raw, unmitigated, greed.

This is not a game that was suffering for players, as much as some idiots in youtube comment sections wanted to cry about how the game was dying. ZOS was getting their money. People were paying for the new content, maybe they were buying it, maybe they were subscribing.

So, either ZOS was seriously undercharging for their dev costs, or someone higher up the food chain got greedy. I'm inclined to think it was the latter.

he who pays the piper calls the tune.

and the tune being called for is 'monetize'

raw, unmitigated, greed?

welcome to the world.

It may be of interest to ZOS & others that many people play games to escape for a time this sort of crap in the 'real' world.

.

It may be of interest to you that the real world always wins because you have to come back to it.

The reality is that they are a business and are here to earn money for investors. You can escape into the game, but they can't escape the bills or the investors. They real world doesn't go away just because you hide.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Synfaer wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

we are dealing with (possibly) two groups of people (could be more).... the ones who had this great idea for a game and the ones with the money to make it happen.

This isn't about paying the piper, it's about raw, unmitigated, greed.

This is not a game that was suffering for players, as much as some idiots in youtube comment sections wanted to cry about how the game was dying. ZOS was getting their money. People were paying for the new content, maybe they were buying it, maybe they were subscribing.

So, either ZOS was seriously undercharging for their dev costs, or someone higher up the food chain got greedy. I'm inclined to think it was the latter.

he who pays the piper calls the tune.

and the tune being called for is 'monetize'

raw, unmitigated, greed?

welcome to the world.

It may be of interest to ZOS & others that many people play games to escape for a time this sort of crap in the 'real' world.

.

But devs are part of the "real world", you know... this is their RL job... to earn money to buy things... unless there's been a worldmeld, and in fact Matt Firor is Molag Bal, Rich Lambert is Sheogorath, Eric Wrobel is Mannimarco and Gina Bruno is Meridia ?

And RNG boxes, the one mechanic that MMO players really hate, the one that drove so many MMOs before this one to the ground, are the only option? Despite the existence of the Crown Store and the premium membership?

Do you think the existing methods are not enough, then? If they are not enough, why is that the case? Has ESO been unable to give a steady profit/pay the bills for the last two years? Do you think that, without the Crown Crates, ESO can't survive?

anitajoneb17_ESO

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Abeille wrote: »

And RNG boxes, the one mechanic that MMO players really hate, the one that drove so many MMOs before this one to the ground, are the only option? Despite the existence of the Crown Store and the premium membership?

Do you think the existing methods are not enough, then? If they are not enough, why is that the case? Has ESO been unable to give a steady profit/pay the bills for the last two years? Do you think that, without the Crown Crates, ESO can't survive?

I have no opinion on that, because I don't have enough information to form an opinion.
Sure, they're doing this for the money. But I don't know (and none of us knows) if that money is needed for covering the costs or if it is needed for increasing profit/dividends beyond that. We would need access to their financial data to know that.
Also, to have an opinion about existing methods or alternative methods for increasing income would require access to data regarding players' behaviour - and we don't have that either.

You can call it whatever you want (welcome addition, necessary evil, cash grab, greed, manipulation, etc...) but the only fact is, those boxes are coming, and you have TWO options (not more, not less) : to buy or not to buy. The "not to buy" option can be split into various sub-options such as cancel subscription or quit playing altogether.

Abeille

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

And RNG boxes, the one mechanic that MMO players really hate, the one that drove so many MMOs before this one to the ground, are the only option? Despite the existence of the Crown Store and the premium membership?

Do you think the existing methods are not enough, then? If they are not enough, why is that the case? Has ESO been unable to give a steady profit/pay the bills for the last two years? Do you think that, without the Crown Crates, ESO can't survive?

I have no opinion on that, because I don't have enough information to form an opinion.
Sure, they're doing this for the money. But I don't know (and none of us knows) if that money is needed for covering the costs or if it is needed for increasing profit/dividends beyond that. We would need access to their financial data to know that.
Also, to have an opinion about existing methods or alternative methods for increasing income would require access to data regarding players' behaviour - and we don't have that either.

You can call it whatever you want (welcome addition, necessary evil, cash grab, greed, manipulation, etc...) but the only fact is, those boxes are coming, and you have TWO options (not more, not less) : to buy or not to buy. The "not to buy" option can be split into various sub-options such as cancel subscription or quit playing altogether.

I agree that we don't have enough information on ESO's earnings to know what is the case. However, there are two options:
1 - ESO is doing well, the boxes are being added for it to make even more money.
2 - ESO is struggling, the boxes are being added to keep the game afloat.

They are mutually exclusive. If the boxes are needed, ESO isn't doing well (and if that's the case, putting only cosmetics in there will hardly save it). If ESO is doing well, the boxes aren't needed, and adding them is in fact product of greed like other players pointed out. The two options are bad, because they end with the boxes being added anyway, and as we all know very well this kind of thing is never supposed to be costumer-friendly.

And we already discussed this, Anita. Just because something horrible is going to happen either way, it doesn't mean we shouldn't point out how horrible the thing that is going to happen is. Let the boundaries be stretched with no noise, and see them be stretched even further next time.

anitajoneb17_ESO

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Abeille wrote: »

I agree that we don't have enough information on ESO's earnings to know what is the case. However, there are two options:
1 - ESO is doing well, the boxes are being added for it to make even more money.
2 - ESO is struggling, the boxes are being added to keep the game afloat.

They are mutually exclusive. If the boxes are needed, ESO isn't doing well (and if that's the case, putting only cosmetics in there will hardly save it). If ESO is doing well, the boxes aren't needed, and adding them is in fact product of greed like other players pointed out. The two options are bad, because they end with the boxes being added anyway, and as we all know very well this kind of thing is never supposed to be costumer-friendly.

And we already discussed this, Anita. Just because something horrible is going to happen either way, it doesn't mean we shouldn't point out how horrible the thing that is going to happen is. Let the boundaries be stretched with no noise, and see them be stretched even further next time.

Your 2 options are not mutually exclusive. The game can be doing very well in terms of number of players, hours played and income per player, but they still need more income to cover the costs (either because their original business plan needs adjusting like all business plans do, or because they meet unexpected expenses, or... or...whatever).

And yes, we've already discussed it. Just like you've already expressed your disgust for the RNG boxes over and over. It's your opinion and feeling and it's fine, but in my opinion, it's not that much of an horror. It's just something I dislike - and can be easily ignored. The reason why I keep contributing to this thread every now and then is to counter doomsayers a little. Because, let's face it : ZOS is not going to listen. However, many people might read and be convinced that ESO is not worth buying / playing / subbing / trying / whatever. And that IS likely to harm the game - and ultimately, me. Much more than the boxes.

Also, whether ZOS is going to stretch the boundaries further in the future will not depend on what you, me or anyone says here. It will depend on people behaviour (not words) as a reaction to this (actual aggregate quantitative data on purchases, subs, quits, etc. ) At best, the feedback here will give them a qualitative insight when interpreting their data.

Abeille

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I agree that we don't have enough information on ESO's earnings to know what is the case. However, there are two options:
1 - ESO is doing well, the boxes are being added for it to make even more money.
2 - ESO is struggling, the boxes are being added to keep the game afloat.

They are mutually exclusive. If the boxes are needed, ESO isn't doing well (and if that's the case, putting only cosmetics in there will hardly save it). If ESO is doing well, the boxes aren't needed, and adding them is in fact product of greed like other players pointed out. The two options are bad, because they end with the boxes being added anyway, and as we all know very well this kind of thing is never supposed to be costumer-friendly.

And we already discussed this, Anita. Just because something horrible is going to happen either way, it doesn't mean we shouldn't point out how horrible the thing that is going to happen is. Let the boundaries be stretched with no noise, and see them be stretched even further next time.

Your 2 options are not mutually exclusive. The game can be doing very well in terms of number of players, hours played and income per player, but they still need more income to cover the costs (either because their original business plan needs adjusting like all business plans do, or because they meet unexpected expenses, or... or...whatever).

And yes, we've already discussed it. Just like you've already expressed your disgust for the RNG boxes over and over. It's your opinion and feeling and it's fine, but in my opinion, it's not that much of an horror. It's just something I dislike - and can be easily ignored. The reason why I keep contributing to this thread every now and then is to counter doomsayers a little. Because, let's face it : ZOS is not going to listen. However, many people might read and be convinced that ESO is not worth buying / playing / subbing / trying / whatever. And that IS likely to harm the game - and ultimately, me. Much more than the boxes.

They are mutually exclusive. "Doing well" and "Being popular" are not the same thing when we are talking about a business. If the game is in need of more income to cover the costs, then it is not doing well, even if it has a lot of players. As you and others pointed out, it is still a business. If it can't sustain itself, despite being popular, it is not doing well as a business. Struggling is struggling, the cause is irrelevant, be it bad decisions, change of plans or circumstances beyond their control.

Now, if that is really the case, if ESO is in such a dire need for more money that they need to resort to this kind of tactic, then I think we should indeed worry about what comes next. Having the game depend on the income of RNG boxes to cover its own costs is problematic, for the reasons already thoroughly explained in this thread (shift of development focus, future inclusion of things that are not only cosmetic, almost nothing being sold through direct purchase anymore and so on).

This is, of course, just one of the possibilities. The other is that ESO is doing amazingly, everybody involved is making money, and they just want more. And this possibility comes with the same worries, oddly enough, because we don't know what's going to be the limit for the "wanting more".

It is fine if you express your opinion, but there comes the "just don't buy it" argument again, which we already explained that doesn't do the trick. It just keeps going in circles. The boxes won't go away because you and me ignore them, it won't stop the shift on the development focus, and the empty "don't buy it" argument does nothing to counter the "doomsayers" because we've been there before, and we didn't buy it, and the issues that come with the boxes still affected us. We already explained that the "don't buy it" argument doesn't touch the issue at all. Repeating that argument doesn't make it any more relevant. It is not even what is being discussed throughout most of the thread, otherwise these would be 105 pages of "I'm buying" and "I'm not" and nothing else.

And about the reputation of the game, trying to counter the doomsayers will hardly have any effect. RNG boxes don't need our help to damage a game's reputation. Their infamy precedes them.

anitajoneb17_ESO

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Abeille wrote: »

It is fine if you express your opinion, but there comes the "just don't buy it" argument again, which we already explained that doesn't do the trick. It just keeps going in circles. The boxes won't go away because you and me ignore them, it won't stop the shift on the development focus, and the empty "don't buy it" argument does nothing to counter the "doomsayers" because we've been there before, and we didn't buy it, and the issues that come with the boxes still affected us. We already explained that the "don't buy it" argument doesn't touch the issue at all. Repeating that argument doesn't make it any more relevant. It is not even what is being discussed throughout most of the thread, otherwise these would be 105 pages of "I'm buying" and "I'm not" and nothing else.

Sorry, but the "just don't buy it" argument does the trick very well - in spite of all your "explanations". And you, me and everyone NOT BUYING them is actually the ONLY way these boxes would go away. And they will if enough people don't buy them.
Not buying is the ONLY efficient attitude here. Rest is blabla.

Abeille

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

It is fine if you express your opinion, but there comes the "just don't buy it" argument again, which we already explained that doesn't do the trick. It just keeps going in circles. The boxes won't go away because you and me ignore them, it won't stop the shift on the development focus, and the empty "don't buy it" argument does nothing to counter the "doomsayers" because we've been there before, and we didn't buy it, and the issues that come with the boxes still affected us. We already explained that the "don't buy it" argument doesn't touch the issue at all. Repeating that argument doesn't make it any more relevant. It is not even what is being discussed throughout most of the thread, otherwise these would be 105 pages of "I'm buying" and "I'm not" and nothing else.

Sorry, but the "just don't buy it" argument does the trick very well - in spite of all your "explanations". And you, me and everyone NOT BUYING them is actually the ONLY way these boxes would go away. And they will if enough people don't buy them.
Not buying is the ONLY efficient attitude here. Rest is blabla.

If, and only IF, an immense number of people do not buy them.

And defending them or dismissing them as "not so bad" probably won't dissuade people from buying them.
Also, there is a difference between "If you don't like them, don't buy them" and "People should NOT buy them because buying them is really bad for the game".

Otherwise, no, the argument is completely empty (and unrealistic, and contradictory when you dismiss them as "not so bad", as if it is an okay thing to put in the game and for people to buy).

Esquire1980g_ESO

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Abeille wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I agree that we don't have enough information on ESO's earnings to know what is the case. However, there are two options:
1 - ESO is doing well, the boxes are being added for it to make even more money.
2 - ESO is struggling, the boxes are being added to keep the game afloat.

They are mutually exclusive. If the boxes are needed, ESO isn't doing well (and if that's the case, putting only cosmetics in there will hardly save it). If ESO is doing well, the boxes aren't needed, and adding them is in fact product of greed like other players pointed out. The two options are bad, because they end with the boxes being added anyway, and as we all know very well this kind of thing is never supposed to be costumer-friendly.

And we already discussed this, Anita. Just because something horrible is going to happen either way, it doesn't mean we shouldn't point out how horrible the thing that is going to happen is. Let the boundaries be stretched with no noise, and see them be stretched even further next time.

Your 2 options are not mutually exclusive. The game can be doing very well in terms of number of players, hours played and income per player, but they still need more income to cover the costs (either because their original business plan needs adjusting like all business plans do, or because they meet unexpected expenses, or... or...whatever).

And yes, we've already discussed it. Just like you've already expressed your disgust for the RNG boxes over and over. It's your opinion and feeling and it's fine, but in my opinion, it's not that much of an horror. It's just something I dislike - and can be easily ignored. The reason why I keep contributing to this thread every now and then is to counter doomsayers a little. Because, let's face it : ZOS is not going to listen. However, many people might read and be convinced that ESO is not worth buying / playing / subbing / trying / whatever. And that IS likely to harm the game - and ultimately, me. Much more than the boxes.

They are mutually exclusive. "Doing well" and "Being popular" are not the same thing when we are talking about a business. If the game is in need of more income to cover the costs, then it is not doing well, even if it has a lot of players. As you and others pointed out, it is still a business. If it can't sustain itself, despite being popular, it is not doing well as a business. Struggling is struggling, the cause is irrelevant, be it bad decisions, change of plans or circumstances beyond their control.

Now, if that is really the case, if ESO is in such a dire need for more money that they need to resort to this kind of tactic, then I think we should indeed worry about what comes next. Having the game depend on the income of RNG boxes to cover its own costs is problematic, for the reasons already thoroughly explained in this thread (shift of development focus, future inclusion of things that are not only cosmetic, almost nothing being sold through direct purchase anymore and so on).

This is, of course, just one of the possibilities. The other is that ESO is doing amazingly, everybody involved is making money, and they just want more. And this possibility comes with the same worries, oddly enough, because we don't know what's going to be the limit for the "wanting more".

It is fine if you express your opinion, but there comes the "just don't buy it" argument again, which we already explained that doesn't do the trick. It just keeps going in circles. The boxes won't go away because you and me ignore them, it won't stop the shift on the development focus, and the empty "don't buy it" argument does nothing to counter the "doomsayers" because we've been there before, and we didn't buy it, and the issues that come with the boxes still affected us. We already explained that the "don't buy it" argument doesn't touch the issue at all. Repeating that argument doesn't make it any more relevant. It is not even what is being discussed throughout most of the thread, otherwise these would be 105 pages of "I'm buying" and "I'm not" and nothing else.

And about the reputation of the game, trying to counter the doomsayers will hardly have any effect. RNG boxes don't need our help to damage a game's reputation. Their infamy precedes them.

I doubt that ESO is doing great and putting in the lockboxes just for "greed" and that's due to past comments ZOS people have made on this subject. I would be more inclined to believe your other alternative that the game is not doing all that well. I think I made a post of "why?" some 50+ pages back and really didn't expect an answer when I asked the question.

I would believe that more is coming than just these cosmetics and it would seem from ZOS statements people have quoted in this thread, that whatever ZOS says now can change at any moment. It appears that I'm not the only one as there's a thread now about "monetization" of the upcoming housing. In fact, I've already acted on my beliefs, took the option 2 referenced above, as I've seen this happen in too many other MMORPGs.

Thevampirenight

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I agree that we don't have enough information on ESO's earnings to know what is the case. However, there are two options:
1 - ESO is doing well, the boxes are being added for it to make even more money.
2 - ESO is struggling, the boxes are being added to keep the game afloat.

They are mutually exclusive. If the boxes are needed, ESO isn't doing well (and if that's the case, putting only cosmetics in there will hardly save it). If ESO is doing well, the boxes aren't needed, and adding them is in fact product of greed like other players pointed out. The two options are bad, because they end with the boxes being added anyway, and as we all know very well this kind of thing is never supposed to be costumer-friendly.

And we already discussed this, Anita. Just because something horrible is going to happen either way, it doesn't mean we shouldn't point out how horrible the thing that is going to happen is. Let the boundaries be stretched with no noise, and see them be stretched even further next time.

Your 2 options are not mutually exclusive. The game can be doing very well in terms of number of players, hours played and income per player, but they still need more income to cover the costs (either because their original business plan needs adjusting like all business plans do, or because they meet unexpected expenses, or... or...whatever).

And yes, we've already discussed it. Just like you've already expressed your disgust for the RNG boxes over and over. It's your opinion and feeling and it's fine, but in my opinion, it's not that much of an horror. It's just something I dislike - and can be easily ignored. The reason why I keep contributing to this thread every now and then is to counter doomsayers a little. Because, let's face it : ZOS is not going to listen. However, many people might read and be convinced that ESO is not worth buying / playing / subbing / trying / whatever. And that IS likely to harm the game - and ultimately, me. Much more than the boxes.

They are mutually exclusive. "Doing well" and "Being popular" are not the same thing when we are talking about a business. If the game is in need of more income to cover the costs, then it is not doing well, even if it has a lot of players. As you and others pointed out, it is still a business. If it can't sustain itself, despite being popular, it is not doing well as a business. Struggling is struggling, the cause is irrelevant, be it bad decisions, change of plans or circumstances beyond their control.

Now, if that is really the case, if ESO is in such a dire need for more money that they need to resort to this kind of tactic, then I think we should indeed worry about what comes next. Having the game depend on the income of RNG boxes to cover its own costs is problematic, for the reasons already thoroughly explained in this thread (shift of development focus, future inclusion of things that are not only cosmetic, almost nothing being sold through direct purchase anymore and so on).

This is, of course, just one of the possibilities. The other is that ESO is doing amazingly, everybody involved is making money, and they just want more. And this possibility comes with the same worries, oddly enough, because we don't know what's going to be the limit for the "wanting more".

It is fine if you express your opinion, but there comes the "just don't buy it" argument again, which we already explained that doesn't do the trick. It just keeps going in circles. The boxes won't go away because you and me ignore them, it won't stop the shift on the development focus, and the empty "don't buy it" argument does nothing to counter the "doomsayers" because we've been there before, and we didn't buy it, and the issues that come with the boxes still affected us. We already explained that the "don't buy it" argument doesn't touch the issue at all. Repeating that argument doesn't make it any more relevant. It is not even what is being discussed throughout most of the thread, otherwise these would be 105 pages of "I'm buying" and "I'm not" and nothing else.

And about the reputation of the game, trying to counter the doomsayers will hardly have any effect. RNG boxes don't need our help to damage a game's reputation. Their infamy precedes them.

I doubt that ESO is doing great and putting in the lockboxes just for "greed" and that's due to past comments ZOS people have made on this subject. I would be more inclined to believe your other alternative that the game is not doing all that well. I think I made a post of "why?" some 50+ pages back and really didn't expect an answer when I asked the question.

I would believe that more is coming than just these cosmetics and it would seem from ZOS statements people have quoted in this thread, that whatever ZOS says now can change at any moment. In fact, I've already acted on my beliefs, took the option 2 referenced above, as I've seen this happen in too many other MMORPGs.

I think the crown gamble boxes are just to bring in extra money. It would help with them getting more money out of players because some players who are rich and can afford it will buy these things In mass. I hope they don't relie themselves fully on the gamble boxes but just use them for limited time stuff and very rare mounts only. The very rare extreme mounts you would never see any day like the attronach mounts would be put into the boxes. Possibly the elk mount as well. Since Elks are typically not mounts but who knows they might release that in the crownstore directly. But I know those mounts are the types they will most defiantly place in crown crate.

anitajoneb17_ESO

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Abeille wrote: »

If, and only IF, an immense number of people do not buy them.

And defending them or dismissing them as "not so bad" probably won't dissuade people from buying them.
Also, there is a difference between "If you don't like them, don't buy them" and "People should NOT buy them because buying them is really bad for the game".

Otherwise, no, the argument is completely empty (and unrealistic, and contradictory when you dismiss them as "not so bad", as if it is an okay thing to put in the game and for people to buy).

Them being a "sky-is-falling" issue for the game is not a fact, it is pure extrapolation from you, based on other games, and ESO is not "other games".
Fact is, they don't even change the game, they affect only the crown store. (I sympathize with people who care about cosmetics, but still).
And I stand by "if you don't like them, don't buy them" because "people should not buy them" implies that I know better than other people what they should buy or not buy with THEIR money. I do that IRL with things like fur, transgenic food, etc... but not in a video game. Relax.

Addendum : If what you want to achieve is to tell people to not buy them, I'm fine with that. But all you've been doing so far is telling ZOS not to sell them, which is entirely different and, imho, a total waste of time.

Abeille

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

If, and only IF, an immense number of people do not buy them.

And defending them or dismissing them as "not so bad" probably won't dissuade people from buying them.
Also, there is a difference between "If you don't like them, don't buy them" and "People should NOT buy them because buying them is really bad for the game".

Otherwise, no, the argument is completely empty (and unrealistic, and contradictory when you dismiss them as "not so bad", as if it is an okay thing to put in the game and for people to buy).

Them being a "sky-is-falling" issue for the game is not a fact, it is pure extrapolation from you, based on other games, and ESO is not "other games".
Fact is, they don't even change the game, they affect only the crown store. (I sympathize with people who care about cosmetics, but still).
And I stand by "if you don't like them, don't buy them" because "people should not buy them" implies that I know better than other people what they should buy or not buy with THEIR money. I do that IRL with things like fur, transgenic food, etc... but not in a video game. Relax.

Addendum : If what you want to achieve is to tell people to not buy them, I'm fine with that. But all you've been doing so far is telling ZOS not to sell them, which is entirely different and, imho, a total waste of time.

Problem is, what these people do with their money (buying boxes) affects the game itself on the ways that we have been putting forward, therefore affecting us. Is there a chance that it won't affect ESO even though that would be a first for the MMO industry? There is always a chance. But story repeats itself, so that's unlikely. But if we keep quiet instead of voicing our concerns, then that chance is null.

And the reason why I have been saying that ZOS shouldn't sell them and not that people shouldn't buy then is that I am being realistic. I already explained to you, there is no reason to remove a digital product for not selling well, because there is no continued cost on keeping it up for sale. Therefore, the chances of ZOS removing the boxes because people didn't buy them are slim - it is a more logical approach to keep adding stuff to the boxes until people do buy them. It is only logical. Besides, not having it up for sale is a guarantee that they won't affect the game in any way, which is the best option. I was suggesting a different approach as for the "just don't buy it" argument to not be so empty, not saying I would use it myself, because it makes little sense when speaking of digital goods.

Azuramoonstar

No, don't ever add these into the game.

neverwinter does this, and it blows.i rather buy the stuff upfront or pay a sub. not spend 1x more on stuff that i can but upfront.

and neverwinter used this for just about everything to the game. I think eso is fine w/o it.

lotto boxes in korean f2p games are called gotcha capsules. get it? gotcha... got ya? XD

hell getting the sub gives you the crowns.

Synfaer

No, don't ever add these into the game.

My take on random loot boxes;

Business Model - Carrot on a stick
First Introduced - Around the time of domestication of animals for human use
Success rate - High
Most commonly used on - Donkeys, Ass's ,Mules & Pigs etc

Chances of getting the carrot - a small chance at the end of a long and arduous journey
Reward - usually not as fresh as seemed at first, generally disappoints expectations.

Recommendations: most is gained by the person(s) holding the stick, very little except a shriveled carrot (or equivalent) to be gained by the carrot chaser. Try to avoid being a donkey or an ass and find someone else to supply you some carrots.

.

anitajoneb17_ESO

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Abeille wrote: »

And the reason why I have been saying that ZOS shouldn't sell them and not that people shouldn't buy then is that I am being realistic. I already explained to you, there is no reason to remove a digital product for not selling well, because there is no continued cost on keeping it up for sale

Yes you've said that already. But that's wrong. I also explained that to you : no company keeps trying to sell stuff that doesn't sell (even if that stuff costs nothing to maintain). Simply because what doesn't sell doesn't sell. That logic trumps yours.

But you've decided that the sky was falling, so if you like to be unhappy, so be it

Wow

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

neverwinter does this, and it blows.i rather buy the stuff upfront or pay a sub. not spend 1x more on stuff that i can but upfront.

and neverwinter used this for just about everything to the game. I think eso is fine w/o it.

lotto boxes in korean f2p games are called gotcha capsules. get it? gotcha... got ya? XD

hell getting the sub gives you the crowns.

Those are called Gacha, Gachapon, or Gashapon

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

starkerealm wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

VerboseQuips wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

you want to play..... you pay. let's go back to the days when you paid by the hour.

Maybe not by the hour, but I am a proud member of an increasingly small minority that would gladly pay a required subscription to ESO if it meant absolutely no cash shop. All costumes, pets, and mounts available in the game for gold, or as rewards for quests and achievements. Barber shop function in the game for gold, or maybe as the result of gold and a task quest in the case of the Race/Class/Alliance/Name/etc changes.

I can't say whether ESO would be better today if they had stuck with a subscription, but I can say that the thought that they would spend more and more development effort on marginal Crown Store stuff would never even enter my head.

(Edit: As it is today, I question whether I want to pay a subscription to a game that is becoming more and more interested in marginal Crown Store stuff....)

we are dealing with (possibly) two groups of people (could be more).... the ones who had this great idea for a game and the ones with the money to make it happen.

he who pays the piper and all that. the people with the money want a return on their investment. that is not just the seed money back but a profit. the bigger the profit the better. for all you people spouting about 'greedy cash grabs' and so on, get real - no one with any sense puts money into something that isn't going to pay dividends... no one.

we had the sub model at the start and that did not deliver the goods.... so then we had the cash shop... and that is not making it. so now we have....random crates - will it work? idk

but someone somewhere thinks it may.

but think about this as an alternative... pay by the hour. you get a fully functional ever expanding world to play in and you pay for it as you play.... the investors get their return and the devs have resources to develop the game.

whats the sub now... 50p a day?

charge me 50p an hour.... it's cool.

As an investment this game is a fail, simply because it cannot generate the revenue required to make up for the long time of development and unsuccessful running time of the game. ESO has players and subscribers, but when you look at what the production costs are and the time it had to be invested without to produce any revenue and compare that what this game could deliver in the future with a normal business investment, then it is pretty clear, that nothing will make this game into a successful investment - nothing - especially not under the management of ZOS.

It might be, that Zenimax is trying to drain at least that money out of players, which they put in and a few percent on top of it, but that move is certainly not good for the player, because ZOS will have to squeeze the wallets of players even harder to get this done, and it will as well not be good for the game, because the focus will shift to more draining methods instead of gameplay, which comes at reasonable costs. This is IMO the beginning of the end and I do not want to be a part of that.

If this is really the beginning of the end (and I hope it will not be the end), let's at least hope that the cosmetic stuff (crafting styles, recipes, new mounts and pets, costumes) that they will create for the Crown Store will provide Bethesda with more raw material to craft the next main series installment.

ZOS is not Bethesda, Bethesda is very successful - ZOS is not, it probably has win, but seen from an investor's perspective it is a failure. It is said that the game costed 200 million US$ - a decent investment would make 400 million out of 200 million within 5-6 years - now look at ESO and take into account, that development started right after Oblivion came out - and then take into acount, that within the next 4.-5 years, ESO would have to generate another 400 million just to be on par with a normal investment of this size. It will never get this kind of money, never - it is a failed investment therefore.

Just nitpicking here, but the past tense of "cost" is usually still, "cost."

We don't know how much ESO did cost to make, but it according to Paul Sage the original development budget was less than $200m.

Supposedly the decision to go from subscription to buy to play was motivated by Microsoft refusing to allow ESO to run without a XBL subscription. Given XB support has direct access to players' subscription status, it's also reasonable to infer they also pull in a hefty chunk of the subscription fees for that platform. (Incidentally, Sony is apparently the reason there are distinct servers for the different platforms.)

Incidentally, if you use Steamcharts as a base line community metric, ESO actually has remarkably stable numbers. (This is a small subset of the community, players who log in on Steam specifically, but it can be safely extrapolated out to the PC numbers as a whole with a reasonable margin for error. (It's possible that, for some reason, the steam community stats are non-representative of the larger population, but that's somewhat unlikely.))

So, we can scratch the game dying off the list. It's entirely possible that ZOS had unreasonable expectations for ESO from the start. Remember how TOR was both the fastest selling MMO in history at launch and still failing to meet expectations? ESO could be in the same boat, commissioned by Zenimax to pull in WoW numbers, or even just Skyrim numbers, which an MMO will basically never do. Even as they've pulled in a stronger community, they're still niche products.

A publisher who doesn't realize that could end up with unrealistic expectations... except, then we're back to greed. Because it requires the publisher to look at WoW, say, "I want one of those," and completely fail to understand that WoW is an extreme outlier, and not something you can replicate on a whim. Which is to say, greed in the absence of due diligence.

A stable number of players does not mean that the investment would be a good one. And development costs are not the only costs involved, there are marketing costs as well. Then you have to see, that investors, who make investments in such an amount, expect to get at least 14% p.a. out of it after taxes and this means the money has to double every 5 years. So even if you put in just 150 million and have a run time of 10 years, it has to generate 600 million after taxes or it will be a failed investment. This is just how investors think and what they expect. And rightfully expect, because they can get that somewhere else with less risk.

Edit: and just to add this, I am not saying, the game is dying - the game is probably doing fine - nevertheless it is a fail seen as an investment.

Synfaer

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Lysette wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

VerboseQuips wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

you want to play..... you pay. let's go back to the days when you paid by the hour.

Maybe not by the hour, but I am a proud member of an increasingly small minority that would gladly pay a required subscription to ESO if it meant absolutely no cash shop. All costumes, pets, and mounts available in the game for gold, or as rewards for quests and achievements. Barber shop function in the game for gold, or maybe as the result of gold and a task quest in the case of the Race/Class/Alliance/Name/etc changes.

I can't say whether ESO would be better today if they had stuck with a subscription, but I can say that the thought that they would spend more and more development effort on marginal Crown Store stuff would never even enter my head.

(Edit: As it is today, I question whether I want to pay a subscription to a game that is becoming more and more interested in marginal Crown Store stuff....)

we are dealing with (possibly) two groups of people (could be more).... the ones who had this great idea for a game and the ones with the money to make it happen.

he who pays the piper and all that. the people with the money want a return on their investment. that is not just the seed money back but a profit. the bigger the profit the better. for all you people spouting about 'greedy cash grabs' and so on, get real - no one with any sense puts money into something that isn't going to pay dividends... no one.

we had the sub model at the start and that did not deliver the goods.... so then we had the cash shop... and that is not making it. so now we have....random crates - will it work? idk

but someone somewhere thinks it may.

but think about this as an alternative... pay by the hour. you get a fully functional ever expanding world to play in and you pay for it as you play.... the investors get their return and the devs have resources to develop the game.

whats the sub now... 50p a day?

charge me 50p an hour.... it's cool.

As an investment this game is a fail, simply because it cannot generate the revenue required to make up for the long time of development and unsuccessful running time of the game. ESO has players and subscribers, but when you look at what the production costs are and the time it had to be invested without to produce any revenue and compare that what this game could deliver in the future with a normal business investment, then it is pretty clear, that nothing will make this game into a successful investment - nothing - especially not under the management of ZOS.

It might be, that Zenimax is trying to drain at least that money out of players, which they put in and a few percent on top of it, but that move is certainly not good for the player, because ZOS will have to squeeze the wallets of players even harder to get this done, and it will as well not be good for the game, because the focus will shift to more draining methods instead of gameplay, which comes at reasonable costs. This is IMO the beginning of the end and I do not want to be a part of that.

If this is really the beginning of the end (and I hope it will not be the end), let's at least hope that the cosmetic stuff (crafting styles, recipes, new mounts and pets, costumes) that they will create for the Crown Store will provide Bethesda with more raw material to craft the next main series installment.

ZOS is not Bethesda, Bethesda is very successful - ZOS is not, it probably has win, but seen from an investor's perspective it is a failure. It is said that the game costed 200 million US$ - a decent investment would make 400 million out of 200 million within 5-6 years - now look at ESO and take into account, that development started right after Oblivion came out - and then take into acount, that within the next 4.-5 years, ESO would have to generate another 400 million just to be on par with a normal investment of this size. It will never get this kind of money, never - it is a failed investment therefore.

Just nitpicking here, but the past tense of "cost" is usually still, "cost."

We don't know how much ESO did cost to make, but it according to Paul Sage the original development budget was less than $200m.

Supposedly the decision to go from subscription to buy to play was motivated by Microsoft refusing to allow ESO to run without a XBL subscription. Given XB support has direct access to players' subscription status, it's also reasonable to infer they also pull in a hefty chunk of the subscription fees for that platform. (Incidentally, Sony is apparently the reason there are distinct servers for the different platforms.)

Incidentally, if you use Steamcharts as a base line community metric, ESO actually has remarkably stable numbers. (This is a small subset of the community, players who log in on Steam specifically, but it can be safely extrapolated out to the PC numbers as a whole with a reasonable margin for error. (It's possible that, for some reason, the steam community stats are non-representative of the larger population, but that's somewhat unlikely.))

So, we can scratch the game dying off the list. It's entirely possible that ZOS had unreasonable expectations for ESO from the start. Remember how TOR was both the fastest selling MMO in history at launch and still failing to meet expectations? ESO could be in the same boat, commissioned by Zenimax to pull in WoW numbers, or even just Skyrim numbers, which an MMO will basically never do. Even as they've pulled in a stronger community, they're still niche products.

A publisher who doesn't realize that could end up with unrealistic expectations... except, then we're back to greed. Because it requires the publisher to look at WoW, say, "I want one of those," and completely fail to understand that WoW is an extreme outlier, and not something you can replicate on a whim. Which is to say, greed in the absence of due diligence.

A stable number of players does not mean that the investment would be a good one. And development costs are not the only costs involved, there are marketing costs as well. Then you have to see, that investors, who make investments in such an amount, expect to get at least 14% p.a. out of it after taxes and this means the money has to double every 5 years. So even if you put in just 150 million and have a run time of 10 years, it has to generate 600 million after taxes or it will be a failed investment. This is just how investors think and what they expect. And rightfully expect, because they can get that somewhere else with less risk.

Thats an excellent idea, every year we should put a crowd funded 100 million dollar cheque in a box. Place that box with 149 other boxes that only contain a stuffed unicorns and invite the investors to pay 14 million to pick a box at an annual event.

GhostwalkerLD

No, don't ever add these into the game.

A stable number of players does not mean that the investment would be a good one. And development costs are not the only costs involved, there are marketing costs as well. Then you have to see, that investors, who make investments in such an amount, expect to get at least 14% p.a. out of it after taxes and this means the money has to double every 5 years. So even if you put in just 150 million and have a run time of 10 years, it has to generate 600 million after taxes or it will be a failed investment. This is just how investors think and what they expect. And rightfully expect, because they can get that somewhere else with less risk.

Thats an excellent idea, every year we should put a crowd funded 100 million dollar cheque in a box. Place that box with 149 other boxes that only contain a stuffed unicorns and invite the investors to pay 14 million to pick a box at an annual event.

Hmmm... let's do it!

shalissareb17_ESO

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

They said they wouldn't put in rng boxes now they're doing it. What the bloody hell's going to stop you from going back on your word when you say it will only be cosmetics and convenience?

Furthermore Idon't LIKE cosmetics in those in the first place. I spring for costumes all the time in games but I have never touched anything that comes in a gambling box. You had a sweet deal going selling me costumes for 10 bucks a pop. Make this fashion in boxes a trend and you won't get anything from me personally. Maybe the dullards out there who can't control themselves. Enjoy employing this shady predatory business practice.

shalissareb17_ESO

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

Wow wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

neverwinter does this, and it blows.i rather buy the stuff upfront or pay a sub. not spend 1x more on stuff that i can but upfront.

and neverwinter used this for just about everything to the game. I think eso is fine w/o it.

lotto boxes in korean f2p games are called gotcha capsules. get it? gotcha... got ya? XD

hell getting the sub gives you the crowns.

Those are called Gacha, Gachapon, or Gashapon

At least when you buy those you get something akin to what you were looking for. RNG boxes in mmorpgs are like 5% chance to get what you want a 95% chance to get an 10% xp potion or something equally insulting.

MornaBaine

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Bouldercleave wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

I just have to note that we are now at 666 votes that match mine right now. And 183 of the other "no" votes. So while it may be just a few of us diehards still yakking about this subject... over 800 people agree with us that these are a bad idea. ZOS, whether you admit to it or not, PLEASE take note.

They are taking note. They are noting that the 400 or so yes voters will spend more for crown crates than all the no voters will spend on ESO+ and crowns put together. It will be glorious.

Sadly, you are probably right. And as the servers slowly empty and more of us diehard subscribers stop paying altogether I'm sure they will think this strategy has still been a great success.

They are going to do that anyway when the next shiny new bauble comes out. There is very limited loyalty when it comes to gaming on a large scale. You will have a few die-hards, but the VAST majority will jump games the second something catches their eye.

True enough but as others have pointed out, they started off with a HUGE TES fanbase at their fingertips and could have so ridden that to glory. They very well COULD have been another WoW in that they had the backing of something that was already wildly popular to parlay into a true winner of an MMO. But they have never seemed to understand that.

Abeille

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

And the reason why I have been saying that ZOS shouldn't sell them and not that people shouldn't buy then is that I am being realistic. I already explained to you, there is no reason to remove a digital product for not selling well, because there is no continued cost on keeping it up for sale

Yes you've said that already. But that's wrong. I also explained that to you : no company keeps trying to sell stuff that doesn't sell (even if that stuff costs nothing to maintain). Simply because what doesn't sell doesn't sell. That logic trumps yours.

But you've decided that the sky was falling, so if you like to be unhappy, so be it

But that isn't wrong. What they do is to keep adding stuff to the boxes, because it costs less money than to take in the sunken costs of a product that didn't sell. This makes sense, taking down something that does't cost money to maintain doesn't.

They make it attractive, if it isn't selling. That's how digital goods work. What you propose isn't logical. The only things that make companies take down digital goods that do not sell are to generate artificial scarcity or because of bad press, because it costs them less to keep it up and just add something desirable to the boxes (something that already exists, like tempers).

Your "logic" that is supposed to trumphs mine doesn't make sense and isn't how the industry works at all. What doesn't sell is made more attractive until it sells.

I didn't "decide the sky is falling". I came to a realistic conclusion based in logic and past experiences. But if you want to ignore the obvious, so be it. I can't make things any more clear to you.

(By the way: What I am claiming to be obvious is the way companies deal with digital products, not the claim that the boxes can be bad for the game. The later conclusion isn't obvious and requires previous experience with this kind of thing)

jedtb16_ESO

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

shalissareb17_ESO wrote: »

They said they wouldn't put in rng boxes now they're doing it. What the bloody hell's going to stop you from going back on your word when you say it will only be cosmetics and convenience?

snip.

well, no. they said they had no plans to put them in. in that is the tacit 'at this time'.

i have no plans to go to belgium. in that is the tacit 'at this time'. and it's true, i don't have plans to go to belgium at the moment. but that doesn't mean if i change my plans in the future and go to belgium that i am a liar or have gone back on my word. just means that my plans changed.

we have no plans =/= we will never ever do.

MornaBaine

No, don't ever add these into the game.

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

shalissareb17_ESO wrote: »

They said they wouldn't put in rng boxes now they're doing it. What the bloody hell's going to stop you from going back on your word when you say it will only be cosmetics and convenience?

snip.

well, no. they said they had no plans to put them in. in that is the tacit 'at this time'.

i have no plans to go to belgium. in that is the tacit 'at this time'. and it's true, i don't have plans to go to belgium at the moment. but that doesn't mean if i change my plans in the future and go to belgium that i am a liar or have gone back on my word. just means that my plans changed.

we have no plans =/= we will never ever do.

Agreed. However, the problem is that this is ALWAYS the answer when players ask about controversial decisions. They say they have no plans to do it. Then a little later they do it. Because their plans "changed." Most of us weren't born yesterday and we know when someone is being disingenuous with us. ZOS at this point has a pretty solid track record of "changing their plans" at this point. We're on to it by now.