Damage Mitigation: Explanation UPDATED 21/03/2021

Minno

paulsimonps wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Some numbers for people to enjoy/hate on while we are in early stages of PTS. Will of course update this significantly after PTS is live.

Slight test of numbers to look at resistance change. First is new numbers with resistance before shield and second is after shield. Base damage taken is 15k, damage shield is 5k and we got minor maim, blocking, Iron Skin from DK and Sword and Board Passive.

(15,000x0.85x0.60-5000)x0.5x0.9x0.80=954
(15,000x0.85-5000)x0.5x0.6x0.9x0.8=1674

pretty significant change even with low numbers I would say

Here are the same numbers I used earlier but with a 1.5 base crit modifier to test difference in crit damage vs shields.

(15,000x1.5x0.85x0.60-5000)x0.5x0.9x0.80=2331
(15,000x0.85-5000)x1.5x0.5x0.6x0.9x0.8=2511

Interesting. How does this compare to live?

@Minno the second row of both calculations is Live, first one is PTS.

Thanks!

WAMB0

I am very interested in whether the shields gets the (same?) resistances from the caster or from the shielded?

Second case would make igneous and bone shield from tank really strong. First case would maybe make it worth running 1 healer with a resistances buffing set and healing ward for when tank is heavily healing debuffed (vHoF steamers, Cloudrest veli/execute)

paulsimonps

WAMB0 wrote: »

I am very interested in whether the shields gets the (same?) resistances from the caster or from the shielded?

Second case would make igneous and bone shield from tank really strong. First case would maybe make it worth running 1 healer with a resistances buffing set and healing ward for when tank is heavily healing debuffed (vHoF steamers, Cloudrest veli/execute)

@WAMB0
I see no reason for why the damage shield given by others would change your resistance. The damage shield is not the thing that has resistance, you are the one with resistance. And yes now as well that Minor Toughness is unique to Wardens having a Warden healer that uses Ice Armor to give Major Ward/Resolve would help a lot with DKs using Igneous and or Bone Shield. Give some extra survavability to the team, if only Ice Armor was a smarter buff and gave it to those without Major Ward/Resolve first.

WeylandLabs

My eyes are stuck to this thread, in order to beat shields in Murkmire you have to first now how they work in Murkmire.

Minno

Bump for question; dots:
- Are they mitigated using the total tooltip value first and then the game shows the ticks hitting your toon second?
- Or does the game figure out the ticks per second from the the total tooltip and then mitigation reduces each of those ticks?

I assume the latter.

Samsgaard

paulsimonps wrote: »

And yes now as well that Minor Toughness is unique to Wardens having a Warden healer that uses Ice Armor to give Major Ward/Resolve would help a lot with DKs using Igneous and or Bone Shield.

Unfortunately, if I understand the latest PTS notes, Igneous and Bone are getting nerfed at the front end (shield size) to cancel out the buff from shields acquiring resistance. The devs' stated intent is that the total effectiveness of the shield will be the same as it is now. Whether they've gotten the math right remains to be seen; perhaps there will still be a net buff, but there could also be a net nerf.

The bottom line is that celebration over shields getting resistance was premature. Looks like it won't make a positive difference to PvE at all, due to the nerfs to shield sizes. For high resistance builds, maybe it'll be a wash, more or less. For low resistance builds, however, it won't possibly make up for the nerfs.

Looks like my Ice Tank still comes out ahead though--no nerfs to the Iceheart shield (yet), so that shield will get a real buff.

Rungar

i believe 42% armor is the break even point for the shield. A good incentive too max out resistances.

paulsimonps

Minno wrote: »

Bump for question; dots:
- Are they mitigated using the total tooltip value first and then the game shows the ticks hitting your toon second?
- Or does the game figure out the ticks per second from the the total tooltip and then mitigation reduces each of those ticks?

I assume the latter.

@Minno

How I understand it is as such. First the base damage is calculated, this includes your Max Magicka/Stamina Wpn/Spell Damage as well as CP and Passives. This is what you see on your tooltip, however not all such things will actually show on the tooltip(last I tested, which was a while back, the dunmer flame passive for example did not show on the tooltip). After that the game takes into account critical strikes/critical resistance, then Maim and Vulnerability. After that comes everything but Blocking and Shields. You will not actually see a value that hits the target until now, now is when the game will show it, either using the base games floating numbers or an addons. Before that it is still being calculated.

When it comes to DoTs, the way I have seen it is that it recounts everything every Tick. Buffs and Debuffs can come out of nowhere and its my understanding that they update things as it goes. Though I have not tested 100% to be sure on all DoTs, I know that Ground Based AoE DoTs were always like that as it technically reapplied a 1s DoT every 1s, think that is still how they work. Same thing with Ground based AoE Buffs/Debuffs, it reapplies a 1s Buff/Debuff while you/target is within the AoE.

Minno

paulsimonps wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Bump for question; dots:
- Are they mitigated using the total tooltip value first and then the game shows the ticks hitting your toon second?
- Or does the game figure out the ticks per second from the the total tooltip and then mitigation reduces each of those ticks?

I assume the latter.

@Minno

How I understand it is as such. First the base damage is calculated, this includes your Max Magicka/Stamina Wpn/Spell Damage as well as CP and Passives. This is what you see on your tooltip, however not all such things will actually show on the tooltip(last I tested, which was a while back, the dunmer flame passive for example did not show on the tooltip). After that the game takes into account critical strikes/critical resistance, then Maim and Vulnerability. After that comes everything but Blocking and Shields. You will not actually see a value that hits the target until now, now is when the game will show it, either using the base games floating numbers or an addons. Before that it is still being calculated.

When it comes to DoTs, the way I have seen it is that it recounts everything every Tick. Buffs and Debuffs can come out of nowhere and its my understanding that they update things as it goes. Though I have not tested 100% to be sure on all DoTs, I know that Ground Based AoE DoTs were always like that as it technically reapplied a 1s DoT every 1s, think that is still how they work. Same thing with Ground based AoE Buffs/Debuffs, it reapplies a 1s Buff/Debuff while you/target is within the AoE.

Cool thanks!.

Does anyone have information on single target dots like bleeds, reflective light, etc? This information is weirdly unavailable and I keep coming across information on dots that snapshot stats for the duration of damage (except for AOE dots as they work like you say).

And weirdly enough some people said single target dots that tick every second don't snapshot stats but those every 2 seconds do. With zero info on how you would calculate it. Asayre left us with info on how to calculate DMG, but appears basic in how it covers (and i assume it's because he might have saw that dots calculate the tooltip first via your stats then divide up the actual ticks).

I was hoping the mitigation formula calculated per tick hitting and not full tooltip as percentages off a higher number will be a larger reduction typically.

Thanks for the info though! Very insightful.

paulsimonps

Samsgaard wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

And yes now as well that Minor Toughness is unique to Wardens having a Warden healer that uses Ice Armor to give Major Ward/Resolve would help a lot with DKs using Igneous and or Bone Shield.

Unfortunately, if I understand the latest PTS notes, Igneous and Bone are getting nerfed at the front end (shield size) to cancel out the buff from shields acquiring resistance. The devs' stated intent is that the total effectiveness of the shield will be the same as it is now. Whether they've gotten the math right remains to be seen; perhaps there will still be a net buff, but there could also be a net nerf.

The bottom line is that celebration over shields getting resistance was premature. Looks like it won't make a positive difference to PvE at all, due to the nerfs to shield sizes. For high resistance builds, maybe it'll be a wash, more or less. For low resistance builds, however, it won't possibly make up for the nerfs.

Looks like my Ice Tank still comes out ahead though--no nerfs to the Iceheart shield (yet), so that shield will get a real buff.

@Samsgaard

This is what I have found.

LIVE:
TANK:

• Max HP - 35000
• Igneous Shield - 35000*0.1*3=10500
• Bone Shield - 35000*0.3=10500
• Bone Shield Synergy - 35000*1=35000
• (70000*0.85*0.9*0.81-10500)*0.60*0.5*0.8*0.9*0.92=6533
• (70000*0.85*0.9*0.81-10500)*0.60*0.5*0.8*0.9*0.92=6533
• (70000*0.85*0.9*0.81-35000)*0.60*0.5*0.8*0.9*0.92=1664

DPS:

• Max HP - 19000
• Igneous Shield(From Tank) - 35000*0.1=3500
• Bone Shield(Self use) - 19000*0.3=5700
• Bone Shield Synergy - 19000*1=19000
• (70000*0.85*0.9*0.81-3500)*0.81=32299
• (70000*0.85*0.9*0.81-5700)*0.81=30517
• (70000*0.85*0.9*0.81-19000)*0.81=19744

PTS:
TANK:

• Max HP - 35000
• Igneous Shield - 35000*0.08*2.5=7000
• Bone Shield - 35000*0.3=10500
• Bone Shield Synergy - 35000*0.5=17500
• (70000*0.85*0.9*0.81*0.6-7000)*0.5*0.8*0.9*0.92=6301
• (70000*0.85*0.9*0.81*0.6-10500)*0.5*0.8*0.9*0.92=5142
• (70000*0.85*0.9*0.81*0.6-17500)*0.5*0.8*0.9*0.92=2824
  DPS:
  • Max HP - 19000
  • Igneous Shield(From Tank) - 35000*0.08=2800
  • Bone Shield(Self use) - 19000*0.3=5700
  • Bone Shield Synergy - 19000*0.5=9500
  • 70000*0.85*0.9*0.81*0.81-2800=32334
  • 70000*0.85*0.9*0.81*0.81-5700=29434
  • 70000*0.85*0.9*0.81*0.81-9500=25634
  
  What I see from this is this: Bone Shields synergy was an obvious nerf, a big one for everyone involved. Igneous was a nerf to the people we give it to but tanks was still slightly buffed. Since Bone Shields base shield was unchanged at 30% max HP its a buff for anyone using it. Also, while I tested with DK as the base don't forget that the Templars Sun Shield was untouched other than the damage reduction on Blazing Shield, its a base 30% of your Max HP and costs magicka, though it is a selfish skill in the sense that unlike Bone Shield and Igneous it does not directly affect others.
  
  Now back to the original point of Major Ward/Resolve. Some Classes/Builds do utilize Major Ward/Resolve in their rotation but not all do. Sorcs got Hurricane/Boundless Storm, and while Hurricane is a very common stam sorc skill not all mag sorcs use boundless storm. NBs got their Shadow Barrier Passive, both mag and stam NBs use skills that activate it but its low uptime when not using heavy armor makes it drop a lot. Some Templars use Rune Focus for sustain so they get their Major Ward/Resolve from there, and the changes made before to make it stay with them outside of the circle makes it last longer on them, but not all use it. DKs and Wardens do not use their Major Ward/Resolve skills in a DPS rotation, though sadly they are not common in late trials. If Ice Armor was changed to be smarter, aka focus on those without the buff, then having it used on a warden healer in a group could help with survivabiltiy quite a bit for those that have low up time or lack it in their rotation. The numbers I used for resistance up there was an average that did not include Ward/Resolve for the DPS's. They did this change for Minor Toughness "The Warden's healing abilities will now prioritize targets without Minor Toughness if both targets are at the same health." Its not too much to ask for to make a similar thing for Ice Armors Major Ward/Resolve.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

paulsimonps wrote: »

WAMB0 wrote: »

A)
Can you explain how shields and critical dmg works together?
There's the "knowledge" in pvp that you "cant crit a shield" which means a shield wont take critical dmg, although the attack can crit (and proc stuff).
What if my critical attack has lower base dmg than the shield size (or hits it after other mitigation) but higher crit dmg?
Will the hit be eaten by the shield completely?
What if my critical attack already has higher base dmg hitting the shield, will it be a normal crit? Or is it like a 110% critial resistence so Block/Phy/Spell Res will only have to work with base dmg?

Also: I always thought Impenetrable would only work on the additional dmg of a critical hit, but the explanation makes it seem possible that with enough critical resistence I could make crits hit lower than noncrits?
As in stacking critical resistence to ~70% and being attacked without any crit modifier?


Is immunity part of mitigation?
Its not really part of the math, but you could fit it in.

Some races have immunity to certain status effects like burning (dunmer), chilled (nord), poisoned/disease. In addition that means they cant get the secondary effects like the dot from burning, minor maim from chilled, poison dot and defile for diseased, if it is procced from the dmg types - not in general.

In this video (link at the end) Gilliamtherogue also mentions, that with the jewel glyphs for the specific element, you also gain the immunity.
Which adds lightning immunity with no vulnerability from lightning dmg.

C)
In the comments below the video, Gilliam explains that the correct number is 660/% as well as cap on 33k bc the additional 100 came from base penetration that ppl didnt know about in the beginning.
As you explained you were testing with mobs hitting you (that dont have that base pen) that should not be the case


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdTwA2TPOQk

@WAMB0

A )
From my testing the way Damage shield interact with Critical Damage is this. You CAN cause a critical strike on a target with a damage shield but the extra damage is only applied after the shield is depleted. In other words the critical damage modifier is applied on the overflow damage after the shield is depleted. However even if the shield is not depleted you technically still critically strike, so other effects that happen if you critically strike an opponent will still happen based on your skills/sets.

So example on damage, say you hit me with 1,000 base dmg, and I have a 500 dmg shield, and the hit is a crit this is what will happen. My shield will remove 500 from your 1,000 and the 500 that is left will then get the base critical modifier of 50% meaning you will deal 750 damage to me as well as depleting my shield. This could be viewed as the shield only removing 250 instead of 500 but this would only happen on a critical strike.

Also no, you cannot reduce the base damage from a target with critical resistance, you cannot reduce the critical modifier to less than 1.00. So if they have 1.5 crit modifier and you have 75% critical resistance their critical modifier will be 1.00 not 0.75. Will try to add that in later and word better.

B )
Immunity is not part of mitigation, it completely removes effects, no damage calculated there. So not sure what it is that you want added in there.

C )
Actually, I now know that my first number of 662 was wrong, I just never bothered with updating it. However I did still get all my data from mobs, mobs have the 100 base pen. I did look at the video and he does say in the comments that it was a misunderstanding based of PvP, and while its true that it was a misunderstanding it was not limited to PvP. So yes, the number is 660 per 1% not 662, but while the cap is 3300 to actually get 50% mitigation you will always need 33100 or more to get it as ALL enemies, NPC's or Players will have at least 100 penetration.

D )
Side note. In the video @Gilliamtherogue says that type specific resistance is multiplicative with spell or physical resistance. When I heard that I questioned it and my own data, cause that is not what I had seen, so I went on the PTS, just a few min ago from writing this, and what I saw was that the claim is false.

My testing was this. With no other source of mitigation other than resistance and flame resistance I was gonna see what would happen if I maxed out my spell resistance and put a bunch of flame resistance on and see if I could get more than 50% mitigation. I tested it on the dude chanting in front of the blood pool of the Mantikora in Veteran Sanctum Ophidia. He has multiple fire spells, or to say, he only uses fire. My initial test showed I did not get over 50% mitigation with all of that. My secondary test, which was to lower my spell resistance but keep my flame resistance higher, showed that the combination of my spell and flame resistance kept me at the cap of 50%. So what is in this threads OP is still accurate, aside from the 662 bit as mentioned of course.

I have been busy making my calculator from another thread so not been updating this, but I will be trying to reword more of this and fix the fault with the 662 to be more accurate, my calculator is using 660 with a base pen accounted for, need to make sure this thread reflects that.

unfinished calculator thread here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/427251/optimizing-mitigation-cp-tanking/p1

Hey @paulsimonps, been a while. I was searching for an answer, and I think I found it in this post. What I am trying to figure out is how much it makes sense for a sorc to increase their crit resist next patch, assuming they are stacking shields still.

So in other words (ignoring pen and amor values). If I have a say a 10k shield active and someone with a 1.5 crit modifier hits me with a skill that does 5k base damage (7.5k on a crit), I will still have a 5k shield up, and my attacker would register a crit, and proc anything that is based on crit (say a sorcs power surge).

Take it to a bigger extreme, lets say I have a 10k shield up, and I get hit with a 9.9k base skil that crits, I still have a 100 pt shield active, and effectively, the crit is meaningless (again other than procs).

Now lets say he attacks me again from the first example with my 5 K shield up (havent had time to recast), and this time I get hit with a 6k base damage. Well, I would lose my shield and 1k of health from the base attack, that attack would crit, and take an additional 3k of health. Does that sound right?

Seems how it is essentially on live. If I get hit with shields down, crit resist matters. If I get hit with a damage skill whose base value is bigger than my active shield, crit matters. But if I get hit with a skill that whose base value is smaller than my active shield, crit resist is meaningless.

Am I close on this?

Also, in the the first example where I have a 10k shield and the base skill is less than that, leaving at least part of a shield still up, blocking does nothing to mitigate that correct? It will simply drain stamina, but the damage would be the same?

paulsimonps

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

WAMB0 wrote: »

A)
Can you explain how shields and critical dmg works together?
There's the "knowledge" in pvp that you "cant crit a shield" which means a shield wont take critical dmg, although the attack can crit (and proc stuff).
What if my critical attack has lower base dmg than the shield size (or hits it after other mitigation) but higher crit dmg?
Will the hit be eaten by the shield completely?
What if my critical attack already has higher base dmg hitting the shield, will it be a normal crit? Or is it like a 110% critial resistence so Block/Phy/Spell Res will only have to work with base dmg?

Also: I always thought Impenetrable would only work on the additional dmg of a critical hit, but the explanation makes it seem possible that with enough critical resistence I could make crits hit lower than noncrits?
As in stacking critical resistence to ~70% and being attacked without any crit modifier?


Is immunity part of mitigation?
Its not really part of the math, but you could fit it in.

Some races have immunity to certain status effects like burning (dunmer), chilled (nord), poisoned/disease. In addition that means they cant get the secondary effects like the dot from burning, minor maim from chilled, poison dot and defile for diseased, if it is procced from the dmg types - not in general.

In this video (link at the end) Gilliamtherogue also mentions, that with the jewel glyphs for the specific element, you also gain the immunity.
Which adds lightning immunity with no vulnerability from lightning dmg.

C)
In the comments below the video, Gilliam explains that the correct number is 660/% as well as cap on 33k bc the additional 100 came from base penetration that ppl didnt know about in the beginning.
As you explained you were testing with mobs hitting you (that dont have that base pen) that should not be the case


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdTwA2TPOQk

@WAMB0

A )
From my testing the way Damage shield interact with Critical Damage is this. You CAN cause a critical strike on a target with a damage shield but the extra damage is only applied after the shield is depleted. In other words the critical damage modifier is applied on the overflow damage after the shield is depleted. However even if the shield is not depleted you technically still critically strike, so other effects that happen if you critically strike an opponent will still happen based on your skills/sets.

So example on damage, say you hit me with 1,000 base dmg, and I have a 500 dmg shield, and the hit is a crit this is what will happen. My shield will remove 500 from your 1,000 and the 500 that is left will then get the base critical modifier of 50% meaning you will deal 750 damage to me as well as depleting my shield. This could be viewed as the shield only removing 250 instead of 500 but this would only happen on a critical strike.

Also no, you cannot reduce the base damage from a target with critical resistance, you cannot reduce the critical modifier to less than 1.00. So if they have 1.5 crit modifier and you have 75% critical resistance their critical modifier will be 1.00 not 0.75. Will try to add that in later and word better.

B )
Immunity is not part of mitigation, it completely removes effects, no damage calculated there. So not sure what it is that you want added in there.

C )
Actually, I now know that my first number of 662 was wrong, I just never bothered with updating it. However I did still get all my data from mobs, mobs have the 100 base pen. I did look at the video and he does say in the comments that it was a misunderstanding based of PvP, and while its true that it was a misunderstanding it was not limited to PvP. So yes, the number is 660 per 1% not 662, but while the cap is 3300 to actually get 50% mitigation you will always need 33100 or more to get it as ALL enemies, NPC's or Players will have at least 100 penetration.

D )
Side note. In the video @Gilliamtherogue says that type specific resistance is multiplicative with spell or physical resistance. When I heard that I questioned it and my own data, cause that is not what I had seen, so I went on the PTS, just a few min ago from writing this, and what I saw was that the claim is false.

My testing was this. With no other source of mitigation other than resistance and flame resistance I was gonna see what would happen if I maxed out my spell resistance and put a bunch of flame resistance on and see if I could get more than 50% mitigation. I tested it on the dude chanting in front of the blood pool of the Mantikora in Veteran Sanctum Ophidia. He has multiple fire spells, or to say, he only uses fire. My initial test showed I did not get over 50% mitigation with all of that. My secondary test, which was to lower my spell resistance but keep my flame resistance higher, showed that the combination of my spell and flame resistance kept me at the cap of 50%. So what is in this threads OP is still accurate, aside from the 662 bit as mentioned of course.

I have been busy making my calculator from another thread so not been updating this, but I will be trying to reword more of this and fix the fault with the 662 to be more accurate, my calculator is using 660 with a base pen accounted for, need to make sure this thread reflects that.

unfinished calculator thread here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/427251/optimizing-mitigation-cp-tanking/p1

Hey @paulsimonps, been a while. I was searching for an answer, and I think I found it in this post. What I am trying to figure out is how much it makes sense for a sorc to increase their crit resist next patch, assuming they are stacking shields still.

So in other words (ignoring pen and amor values). If I have a say a 10k shield active and someone with a 1.5 crit modifier hits me with a skill that does 5k base damage (7.5k on a crit), I will still have a 5k shield up, and my attacker would register a crit, and proc anything that is based on crit (say a sorcs power surge).

Take it to a bigger extreme, lets say I have a 10k shield up, and I get hit with a 9.9k base skil that crits, I still have a 100 pt shield active, and effectively, the crit is meaningless (again other than procs).

Now lets say he attacks me again from the first example with my 5 K shield up (havent had time to recast), and this time I get hit with a 6k base damage. Well, I would lose my shield and 1k of health from the base attack, that attack would crit, and take an additional 3k of health. Does that sound right?

Seems how it is essentially on live. If I get hit with shields down, crit resist matters. If I get hit with a damage skill whose base value is bigger than my active shield, crit matters. But if I get hit with a skill that whose base value is smaller than my active shield, crit resist is meaningless.

Am I close on this?

Also, in the the first example where I have a 10k shield and the base skill is less than that, leaving at least part of a shield still up, blocking does nothing to mitigate that correct? It will simply drain stamina, but the damage would be the same?

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

Yo bear!

So no, critical resistance does matter after Murkmire even if your shield is up. Current calculations would look like this:

(10000*0.85-5000)*1.5*0.80=4200

That's a 10k base hit against a 5k dmg shield, minor maim and 20% resistance. On live as you can see critical modifier is after the damage shield, but this is how it is on PTS.

10000*1.5*0.85*0.80-5000=5200

Notice how the first part is the crit modifier kicking off, and of course the 20% resistance, the 0.80 part, is before the shield as well. Now the crit modifier can obviously be lowered with crit resistance just like before, making it like this.

10000*(1.5-0.25)*0.85*0.80-5000=3500

That is the PTS calculation with everything we previously had but with 25% critical resistance added into the mix.

Also yes, blocking and anything increasing block mitigation is the only thing that mitigates after the damage shield and you will still be costed stamina if your shield doesn't break while blocking. Most likely this is cause it still helps prevent many forms of CC and the game doesn't wish to look at what type of attack it is. The real value of shields for non blocking targets is that it is now truly an extension of your Health Bar, its a temporary increase of your max health, or that is the way you could look at it when not accounting for overflow and blocking.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

@paulsimonps

"From my testing the way Damage shield interact with Critical Damage is this. You CAN cause a critical strike on a target with a damage shield but the extra damage is only applied after the shield is depleted."

This is the sentence that is confusing me I guess.

What happens in this simple example (assume no armor or pen and crit modifier of 1.5). I have 10k shield, you critically hit me with a skill that does 5k base (7.5k crit). Do I have a 5k damage shield or a 2.5k damage shield at that point.

paulsimonps

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

@paulsimonps

"From my testing the way Damage shield interact with Critical Damage is this. You CAN cause a critical strike on a target with a damage shield but the extra damage is only applied after the shield is depleted."

This is the sentence that is confusing me I guess.

What happens in this simple example (assume no armor or pen and crit modifier of 1.5). I have 10k shield, you critically hit me with a skill that does 5k base (7.5k crit). Do I have a 5k damage shield or a 2.5k damage shield at that point.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

On the Live server you will have 5k and after Murkmire hits Live it will be 2.5k

That statement you quoted is old info and how it works on the Live Server, the crit strike changes has not happened yet, and so my thread is not updated, only do so after it goes live. When Murkmire hits the calculations I showed you will take effect and critical strikes gets its extra damage before the damage shield is hit, but will be mitigated by the targets spell/physical resistance before it damages the shield.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

paulsimonps wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

@paulsimonps

"From my testing the way Damage shield interact with Critical Damage is this. You CAN cause a critical strike on a target with a damage shield but the extra damage is only applied after the shield is depleted."

This is the sentence that is confusing me I guess.

What happens in this simple example (assume no armor or pen and crit modifier of 1.5). I have 10k shield, you critically hit me with a skill that does 5k base (7.5k crit). Do I have a 5k damage shield or a 2.5k damage shield at that point.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

On the Live server you will have 5k and after Murkmire hits Live it will be 2.5k

That statement you quoted is old info and how it works on the Live Server, the crit strike changes has not happened yet, and so my thread is not updated, only do so after it goes live. When Murkmire hits the calculations I showed you will take effect and critical strikes gets its extra damage before the damage shield is hit, but will be mitigated by the targets spell/physical resistance before it damages the shield.

@paulsimonps
Gotcha, that makes more sense. I was excited there for a minute, but I assumed 2.5k would be the answer. I thought the convo had moved towards the PTS. Seemed to good to be true. haha.

But it does sound like, assuming you build for reasonable crit resist 3k or so (i usually dont go for more than 2k for mag sorc on live), and have your major resistance buffs (will need to find a place for boundless on our bars), against a lot of opponents, damage shields might actually feel stronger assuming they arent stacking ridiculous levels of penetration or running more than your typical crit modifiers.

Shame you cant mitigate damage with block to shields, but i suppose that might make DKs unkillable. It has always bothered me how you can be in a situation where blocking only serves to drain your stamina with no benefit (assuming a knockdown isnt coming your way).

Also, if you ever get out of the PTS lab, we should run run a dungeon or 3. Been too long, old friend.

Minno

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

@paulsimonps

"From my testing the way Damage shield interact with Critical Damage is this. You CAN cause a critical strike on a target with a damage shield but the extra damage is only applied after the shield is depleted."

This is the sentence that is confusing me I guess.

What happens in this simple example (assume no armor or pen and crit modifier of 1.5). I have 10k shield, you critically hit me with a skill that does 5k base (7.5k crit). Do I have a 5k damage shield or a 2.5k damage shield at that point.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

On the Live server you will have 5k and after Murkmire hits Live it will be 2.5k

That statement you quoted is old info and how it works on the Live Server, the crit strike changes has not happened yet, and so my thread is not updated, only do so after it goes live. When Murkmire hits the calculations I showed you will take effect and critical strikes gets its extra damage before the damage shield is hit, but will be mitigated by the targets spell/physical resistance before it damages the shield.

@paulsimonps
Gotcha, that makes more sense. I was excited there for a minute, but I assumed 2.5k would be the answer. I thought the convo had moved towards the PTS. Seemed to good to be true. haha.

But it does sound like, assuming you build for reasonable crit resist 3k or so (i usually dont go for more than 2k for mag sorc on live), and have your major resistance buffs (will need to find a place for boundless on our bars), against a lot of opponents, damage shields might actually feel stronger assuming they arent stacking ridiculous levels of penetration or running more than your typical crit modifiers.

Shame you cant mitigate damage with block to shields, but i suppose that might make DKs unkillable. It has always bothered me how you can be in a situation where blocking only serves to drain your stamina with no benefit (assuming a knockdown is coming your way).

Also, if you ever get out of the PTS lab, we should run run a dungeon or 3. Been too long, old friend.

i think that's because the shield is technically hitting the dmg not the block. So it makes no sense that blocking impacts damage before a shield. You can also say the same for why then does block drain stamina. But if you think about it, blocking with a shield around you should still drain stamina; you are draining both your concentration and strength by holding up your hands in addition to conjuring a ward.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Minno wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

@paulsimonps

"From my testing the way Damage shield interact with Critical Damage is this. You CAN cause a critical strike on a target with a damage shield but the extra damage is only applied after the shield is depleted."

This is the sentence that is confusing me I guess.

What happens in this simple example (assume no armor or pen and crit modifier of 1.5). I have 10k shield, you critically hit me with a skill that does 5k base (7.5k crit). Do I have a 5k damage shield or a 2.5k damage shield at that point.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

On the Live server you will have 5k and after Murkmire hits Live it will be 2.5k

That statement you quoted is old info and how it works on the Live Server, the crit strike changes has not happened yet, and so my thread is not updated, only do so after it goes live. When Murkmire hits the calculations I showed you will take effect and critical strikes gets its extra damage before the damage shield is hit, but will be mitigated by the targets spell/physical resistance before it damages the shield.

@paulsimonps
Gotcha, that makes more sense. I was excited there for a minute, but I assumed 2.5k would be the answer. I thought the convo had moved towards the PTS. Seemed to good to be true. haha.

But it does sound like, assuming you build for reasonable crit resist 3k or so (i usually dont go for more than 2k for mag sorc on live), and have your major resistance buffs (will need to find a place for boundless on our bars), against a lot of opponents, damage shields might actually feel stronger assuming they arent stacking ridiculous levels of penetration or running more than your typical crit modifiers.

Shame you cant mitigate damage with block to shields, but i suppose that might make DKs unkillable. It has always bothered me how you can be in a situation where blocking only serves to drain your stamina with no benefit (assuming a knockdown is coming your way).

Also, if you ever get out of the PTS lab, we should run run a dungeon or 3. Been too long, old friend.

i think that's because the shield is technically hitting the dmg not the block. So it makes no sense that blocking impacts damage before a shield. You can also say the same for why then does block drain stamina. But if you think about it, blocking with a shield around you should still drain stamina; you are draining both your concentration and strength by holding up your hands in addition to conjuring a ward.

Yeah, it can certainly be justified in several ways. I think the bigger justification is that block can do more than just mitigate damage. For example, it can prevent a knockback. I guess my pushback to your justification is that if the shield is "hitting the damage" than you arent actually blocking anything, just like if you just sit there and hold block in a vacuum, you dont lose stamina, because nothing is being mitigated. Seems like losing your regen is sufficient enough of a penalty for keeping your hands up.

From a lore perspective, i think its not too far fetched to take the position that when i block to mitigate a loss to health, I sacrifice stamina, and there for, if there is no mitigation, there should be no sacrifice. That said, my guess is that it would also be really hard to implement effectively.

Minno

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

@paulsimonps

"From my testing the way Damage shield interact with Critical Damage is this. You CAN cause a critical strike on a target with a damage shield but the extra damage is only applied after the shield is depleted."

This is the sentence that is confusing me I guess.

What happens in this simple example (assume no armor or pen and crit modifier of 1.5). I have 10k shield, you critically hit me with a skill that does 5k base (7.5k crit). Do I have a 5k damage shield or a 2.5k damage shield at that point.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

On the Live server you will have 5k and after Murkmire hits Live it will be 2.5k

That statement you quoted is old info and how it works on the Live Server, the crit strike changes has not happened yet, and so my thread is not updated, only do so after it goes live. When Murkmire hits the calculations I showed you will take effect and critical strikes gets its extra damage before the damage shield is hit, but will be mitigated by the targets spell/physical resistance before it damages the shield.

@paulsimonps
Gotcha, that makes more sense. I was excited there for a minute, but I assumed 2.5k would be the answer. I thought the convo had moved towards the PTS. Seemed to good to be true. haha.

But it does sound like, assuming you build for reasonable crit resist 3k or so (i usually dont go for more than 2k for mag sorc on live), and have your major resistance buffs (will need to find a place for boundless on our bars), against a lot of opponents, damage shields might actually feel stronger assuming they arent stacking ridiculous levels of penetration or running more than your typical crit modifiers.

Shame you cant mitigate damage with block to shields, but i suppose that might make DKs unkillable. It has always bothered me how you can be in a situation where blocking only serves to drain your stamina with no benefit (assuming a knockdown is coming your way).

Also, if you ever get out of the PTS lab, we should run run a dungeon or 3. Been too long, old friend.

i think that's because the shield is technically hitting the dmg not the block. So it makes no sense that blocking impacts damage before a shield. You can also say the same for why then does block drain stamina. But if you think about it, blocking with a shield around you should still drain stamina; you are draining both your concentration and strength by holding up your hands in addition to conjuring a ward.

Yeah, it can certainly be justified in several ways. I think the bigger justification is that block can do more than just mitigate damage. For example, it can prevent a knockback. I guess my pushback to your justification is that if the shield is "hitting the damage" than you arent actually blocking anything, just like if you just sit there and hold block in a vacuum, you dont lose stamina, because nothing is being mitigated. Seems like losing your regen is sufficient enough of a penalty for keeping your hands up.

From a lore perspective, i think its not too far fetched to take the position that when i block to mitigate a loss to health, I sacrifice stamina, and there for, if there is no mitigation, there should be no sacrifice. That said, my guess is that it would also be really hard to implement effectively.

yea and then balance wise, it would terrible to fight against because they could block most CCs and not drop in health because you can block cast shields in a way.

aeowulf

I don't think classes that can perma-block should get class shields too :P

boombazookajd

This is a great write up but can those of us who aren't so good with math get a condensed version? Like a cliff notes?

paulsimonps

boombazookajd wrote: »

This is a great write up but can those of us who aren't so good with math get a condensed version? Like a cliff notes?

@boombazookajd

I got you fam!

Minno

paulsimonps wrote: »

boombazookajd wrote: »

This is a great write up but can those of us who aren't so good with math get a condensed version? Like a cliff notes?

@boombazookajd

I got you fam!

Flying mounts confirmed!

boombazookajd

paulsimonps wrote: »

boombazookajd wrote: »

This is a great write up but can those of us who aren't so good with math get a condensed version? Like a cliff notes?

@boombazookajd

I got you fam!

Bruh. I'm dying rn. You win the forums for the week.

paulsimonps

boombazookajd wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

boombazookajd wrote: »

This is a great write up but can those of us who aren't so good with math get a condensed version? Like a cliff notes?

@boombazookajd

I got you fam!

Bruh. I'm dying rn. You win the forums for the week.

@boombazookajd

For real though, I am gonna do a new write up of it all after Murkmire hits the Live Server, since it changes so much I am gonna have to rewrite it anyway, will work on my wording a bit and maybe a TL;DR.

paulsimonps

ALRIGHTY! Its been updated, I might have most likely missed something or forgot to update a small bit here and there so please don't hesitate to correct me so I can fix it. As well if there is anything lacking that you can think of that needs explanation or testing then let me know and I will try and test it so we can all learn from it. And as well I will try, when I get time, to work on my calculator. I've been really busy IRL so not much time for ESO lately but will do my best. Thanks as always guys.

crusnik91

@paulsimonps
Hi mate, thx for all the formulars. It does help a lot with build theorycrafting

My only question is does physical or magical resistance affect the damage of crit damage taken?

To explain myself better here is an example
Let's say my resistance is 25% (without any other mitigation factors) so

non crit damage taken= base damage*(1-0.25) = 0.75*base damage

So now if the enemy does a crit damage on me and I have zero crit resistance is the

crit damage taken = (0.75*base damage)*1.5 ?

or is it

crit damage taken = (base damage)*1.5 ?

my reason is mainly jsut to compare both brass or armor master set vs Impregnable Armor set

I used the 2 given calculations from the 1st page

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1.5+(Critical Damage Buff #1/100)+(Critical Damage Buff #2/100)+(etc etc)-(Critical Resistance/68/100))

paulsimonps

crusnik91 wrote: »

@paulsimonps
Hi mate, thx for all the formulars. It does help a lot with build theorycrafting

My only question is does physical or magical resistance affect the damage of crit damage taken?

To explain myself better here is an example
Let's say my resistance is 25% (without any other mitigation factors) so

damage taken= base damage*(1-0.25) = 0.75*base damage

So now if the enemy does a crit damage on me and I have zero crit resistance is the

damage taken = (0.75*base damage)*1.5 ?

or is it

damage taken = (base damage)*1.5 ?

my reason is mainly jsut to compare both brass or armor master set vs Impregnable Armor set

I used the 2 given calculations from the 1st page

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1.5+(Critical Damage Buff #1/100)+(Critical Damage Buff #2/100)+(etc etc)-(Critical Resistance/68/100))

@crusnik91

Damage Taken=Base Damage*Crit Modifier*Mitigation

Or in this case using example numbers. Base damage 10,000. Crit Modifier 1.5 and 25% resistance aka 16500.

10,000*1.5*0.75=15000*0.75=11250

The whole thing should look roughly like this:

Damage Taken = (Base Damage*(Crit Modifier-Crit Resistance)*Vulnerability Sources*Mitigation Sources*(Resistance-Penetration)-Damage Shield)*Blocking Sources

Also, this: "damage taken = (0.75*base damage)*1.5 ?" is the same as "0.75*base damage*1.5" which is the same as "base damage*1.5*0.75" cause if its all multiplication then the order doesn't matter.

crusnik91

@paulsimonps

thx mate. just want I needed

FrancisCrawford

Just to be clear -- a player's denominator for resistance is 66,000, in that 33K/66K = 50% mitigation, 10K resistance would be close to 15% mitigation, and so on?

But for mobs, trash and bosses alike, the denominator is 50K instead?

Correct?

Aznox

I've recently seen more people stacking %value penetration with flat-value penetration, on the premise that % is apply before flat-value.

However i had the impression that this has not always been true, if so when did it change ? or am I mixing up with something else like block cost ?